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Author
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Topic: where he stops, or as close as possible?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 16, 2010 03:54 PM
I just want to know if you can be taken out of your comfort zone.
The reason I am asking is that I hunt a lot at night, and those coyotes suffer a very high percentage of bang/flops. On day stands, sometimes you have to shoot between openings, or rush the shot because of a pause where you didn't expect it, stuff like that. Many things can happen on a day stand and you will have the occasional runner.
But, at night, a lot of my coyotes get drilled with a precision shot, standing stock still and there are few spinners and runners, hardly any, in fact. And, it's because they can be stopped almost where you want them, and at that point, a careful shot produces results that are predictable and expected. It has to be that way because you don't want to wander all over the place in the dark looking for an animal that fusses and maybe moves from where you spotted him.
Are you always letting him in too close and need to shoot at a moving animal, or do you know exactly what he will do and deal with it?
So, I want you people to think about it and evaluate your expectations. Anything that you can contribute to the discussion, whatever blows your skirt up.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted May 16, 2010 07:57 PM
When I take someone new (to me) I always tell em to take the first safe shot they are confident they can make. Me, I probably let them get too close sometimes and wind up taking a shot after they are keyed up because of it. That results in a less than perfect shot at times and maybe an adrenalin rushed coyote?
I will say when multiples come in, my odds go down but I'm working on it. I have to remember back to my early bird hunting days and pick one bird/(coyote) and pick my shot.
Learning how to handle coyotes is where I could use the most help in my opinion and this should be interesting.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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RagnCajn
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posted May 16, 2010 10:05 PM
In my area, I will wait for that 75-100 yds checkup they usually do. In these fields I can see them coming from 250 yds+. They will usually stop at about 75-100 yards and check things out beore they comeon in. Most of my shots enter the chest and they drop right there. There are exceptions when they come charging, and that is usually when there is more than one. If a double or more is involved they will be racing each other. If that i happening I will take he first comfortable shot and then look for where the others are headed. For some dumb reason, they will usually stop out there at the fence and look back. That is when I take the other one.
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2010 01:35 AM
Randy, there is a lot of talk about body language holding a clue to whether a second coyote is coming to the call, but just out of sight. The theory is that they come in along the same path.
How often do you see coyotes converge from different directions, and suddenly you need a plan? What about when locating and expecting an approach from a certain direction, but a stray shows up on your weak side? If you move to address him, what about the others expected shortly, once you are out of position; I mean, hung out to dry?
Exactly how detrimental is a shot, to any additional animals approaching the stand? I don't find them to be wary, most often, they seem rather deaf, not spooked.
What's the worst thing a hunter can do to spook an incoming coyote?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 17, 2010 05:52 AM
"What's the worst thing that a hunter can do to spook a coyote??"
Standing up, thinking that the stand is over has had somewhat dramatic results a couple of times in the thick stuff that I tend to call in. It becomes an OOPS......AH CRAP!! moment.
As far as the coyote showing up on my weak side; I learned a long time ago that, while predicting where the coyote will show up from is really neat & very pampas, the truth is that in my hunting spots, the coyote(s) will show up from where ever they damn well please. I set up with the rifle or (more likely) the shotgun pointed at the electro-caller 'cause that's where the coyote is headed. Works for me....your mileage may vary.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7579 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted May 17, 2010 06:16 AM
Well, I haven't shot darn near enough coyotes to play the "let see how close I can get 'em" game. That said, if I'm steady on my stix and that coyote stops with my reticle on him, I'm sending him a package of bad intentions...
Admittedly, that prolly has cost me a second coyote stragglin' in behind the 1st. But like I said, I haven't shot enough coyotes to worry about those....yet. But I'm still learnin' and can appreciate the 'art' of deciphering a coyote's body language as ideally "when" to let his air out...
Heck, I think being able to call a YOY on the approach would allow for a closer shot opportunity? Given they've prolly not yet heard a call, or had a bullet whizz past them?
What about being able to call the sex of the dog, then let it keep coming in hopes of getting it's mate to show?
Do you guys try to 'classify' your 1st customer, to better improve your shot opportunity, or chance at multiples?
If so, how does time of year factor in?
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted May 17, 2010 06:17 AM
quote:
What's the worst thing a hunter can do to spook an incoming coyote?
Aside from getting a snoot full of human scent, exposing/skylining the human form is the worst. Certain amounts of movement or odd noise(safety clicking etc) can be tollerated. Don't get me wrong, these will draw attention and create a moment that requires a decision on my part (ie killing coyote)but, the skylined exposed human form seems to always generate an about face and a rapid departure. Even on hard charging coyotes.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted May 17, 2010 07:17 AM
quote:
What about being able to call the sex of the dog, then let it keep coming in hopes of getting it's mate to show?
Do you guys try to 'classify' your 1st customer, to better improve your shot opportunity, or chance at multiples?
If so, how does time of year factor in?
No. My opinion, for what its worth. I have seen this touted on PM and other boards several times..."how to get a double etc". First off, calling your shot like some big league hitter pointing at the bleachers will soon leave one humbled. Second, my definition of a double, triple etc is multiple coyotes responding to the call together. A double/triple is not killing one coyote, then having another show up a minute or so later and killing it.
When multiples show up on a calling stand, one is usually left with a good oppurtunity to kill the most aggressive coyote first, leaving the more timid for the follow ups. Remember, in order to kill a multiple, you have to kill number one first. Number two and/or three always follow number one. To me, killing multiples has as much to do with the 'nature' of the called coyotes as it does the caller. I have seen multiples called, shoot number one , and remaining coyotes get a little nervous, but continue to work the call. I 've also had multiples respond, kill number one, and remaining coyotes dissappear almost instantly.
Another factor would be terrain. We all don't have the beautiful vistas that Reeves has in NW La. Some times cover does not provide for an easy second/third kill. Sometimes, lack of cover doesn't allow for the movement and oppurtunity I need to get a second/third kill(my previous post).
So, my opinion, there is no set formula for killing multiples. You have to be consistant at killing singles first. You have to be able to read coyotes, maintain composure, and take advantage of oppurtunities as they arrise. Multiples are nothing more than a couple singles at the same time LOL.
Maintain
P.S. My assumption would be that the use of decoy/tolling dogs would be completely different. But I have no experience in that area.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted May 17, 2010 07:59 AM
I usually go hunting with both a shotgun and a rifle. I don't carry both to the stand. I let the amount of cover dictate which one I take. With a shotgun, I let them get as close as possible because it makes for lots of fun. With a rifle I take the first good shot available which is usually under a 100 yards. I've taken and missed doubles. I still need to learn to concentrate on one coyote at a time when I get four or more in.
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted May 17, 2010 08:49 AM
Kokopelli has it right that we can't predict from which direction a coyote will arrive, but with some forethought we can do pretty well at determining where he is going, no matter which direction he comes from.
I learned to call critters as a bow hunter and needed close shots in as predictable location as possible to minimize my movement before the shot. So even in open country I would set up in a patch of thick cover and predict or set up a highly probable kill zone. It still works with a rifle. I've had coyotes approach within ten feet of my back, hover and sniff a bit, then circle to my kill zone where I shot them at 25-50 yards usually.
Bow hunting, we get a lot of approaches compared to kills, and so get to observe more than when I switched to rifle. I haven't done many multiple kills, but on some of them I have depended on coyote body language gained from observing them. Again, shooting them before they get inside that 75 yard closer circle keeps us from learning a LOT about close in behaviours and body language etc. That's not a recommendation to watch them instead of shoot them!!
When three or more coyotes approach, they often race each other to the call. My best luck has been to shoot the first one that pauses or flares out, which has usually been a farther one, not the closest. In the next one or two seconds of confusion, shoot another one, especially if it jumps aside then stops and stares at the down companion. If lucky, the third one will pause at the edge of cover before disappearing, apparently trying to assess what happened, where the others are, etc.
When two coyotes approach, often one will stop 60-100 yards out on a vantage point to watch. (My numbers reflect cover without long vistas, but the critter will usually stop within rifle range). The other coyote continues to approach, sometimes sneaking and hiding on the way. The watcher will reveal where the sneaker is, looking from call sound to his sneaking partner frequently, and sometimes directing the sneaker's approach path. As long as the watcher is facing the sound, the game continues. The sneaker keeps looking back at the watcher once in awhile. The instant the watcher changes body language to broadside or facing away, that is a signal to the closer sneaker that something is wrong and to get away from the call sound.
It would be interesting to pick Higgins’ brain on this and see how much of my observations are accurate.
IME it has been easier to get a double if I shoot the watcher, which is father out. When he drops out of sight, it confuses the closer animal for a moment and I have shot the second one as it looked confusedly back and forth from my location to where the watcher had been, looking for a signal. It all happens fast.
As to the original question however, I normally shoot the first coyote I can at the moment it gives me a shot I am confident to make. Dead singles add up faster than schemed-for doubles. I think Poor Richard or somebody like that called it a bird in the hand...
[ May 17, 2010, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 17, 2010 10:18 AM
Okanagan, I like the way you laid all that out and looking at it as hindsight, it makes sense.
As for Higgins, it's his fault I started letting them get so close, he said something about learning more from live coyotes than dead ones... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2010 10:19 AM
quote:
Second, my definition of a double, triple etc is multiple coyotes responding to the call together. A double/triple is not killing one coyote, then having another show up a minute or so later and killing it.
(author unknown, but he knows Geordie's password)
Friends, we need to stomp out elitest attitudes like the above. What if they romp in head to tail like circus elephants, but then you mess up and kill them individually? What's that? Three singles? Come on, Tim! Oops, we don't know who it is, FOR SURE, but he talks like TA, huh?
quote:
It would be interesting to pick Higgins’ brain on this and see how much of my observations are accurate.
It's always interesting to pick his brain for accuracy.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted May 17, 2010 10:38 AM
These will be overly simple answers, but I am going to speak with generalities for the majority of coyotes I hunt. Since we all know there are exceptions to almost every scenario
1) How often do you see coyotes converge from different directions, and suddenly you need a plan?
I hunt a lot of sage and open country. However, it is very broken up. I rarely see coyotes come from polar opposite directions where I would guess they were two seperate groups. In that scenario I will usually let the coyotes dictate what I do. IF one group is aggressively coming to the call I will shut up and let them come in as close as possible before shooting. IF they both hang back I will continue to call infrequently, to minimize movement, until one commits. If I had an electronic call I would probably just let it run.
Most multiples I have called in have come in with more caution when they are together. Each will get a little closer look to see what the other is doing, etc. When I like where both coyotes are currently standing I will shoot the closest and move to the next.
When I have multiples coming in the same path at different times they usually do not give me clues that another coyote is in the area.
2) What about when locating and expecting an approach from a certain direction, but a stray shows up on your weak side? If you move to address him, what about the others expected shortly, once you are out of position; I mean, hung out to dry?
A bird in the hand to me. Okanagan put it perfectly.
3) Exactly how detrimental is a shot, to any additional animals approaching the stand? I don't find them to be wary, most often, they seem rather deaf, not spooked.
I mostly agree with this. However, if you get a spinner or a miss and the coyote you were shooting at reacts dramatically, like bolting and running, then I usually see all the others running off too.
4) What's the worst thing a hunter can do to spook an incoming coyote?
Move when the coyote is looking at you.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2010 10:54 AM
quote:
These will be overly simple answers
Perfect! We love overly simple answers on HM.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted May 17, 2010 12:16 PM
Leonard, I am not sure any of my experiences and advice apply to others but here goes. Untill I began traveling to hunt coyotes, I did not realize how good I have it here. These are non-pressured coyotes. They do not respond typical of the ones I have seen in pressured states such as but not limited to AZ. The only call they have heard has been mine and I try to make a habit of not calling him again after that, for he is uaually dead. In the times that I have had one get away unscathed (multiples) I can go back to the same area and call that coyote back within the week and finish the game. Two times come to mind when I have called in and killed a three legged coyote that was made that way the week before.
quote:
Randy, there is a lot of talk about body language holding a clue to whether a second coyote is coming to the call, but just out of sight. The theory is that they come in along the same path.
I hunt open pasture lands, bordered by drainage canals and bayous. Due to the lay of the borders and woodlots, I can usually tell where the coyote will be coming from. I have seen on more than one occassion a lone coyote come out and look back. A second one never shows. It is my observation his look back is merely to gauge his exposure. Here is an example. This is my son filming and his best friend in on leave from Iraq. The friend is the shooter and literally does not see the coyote till just before the shot. At the 1;30 mark the coyote will look back. I feel this was due to exposure on his part and he was looking to see just how far he had to go if things went south.
quote:
How often do you see coyotes converge from different directions, and suddenly you need a plan? What about when locating and expecting an approach from a certain direction, but a stray shows up on your weak side? If you move to address him, what about the others expected shortly, once you are out of position; I mean, hung out to dry?
Several times per year. I get on the one that would require minimal movement. I stay on that one till I have either ran it off or killed it. I feel one sure things is better than two possibles.
quote:
Exactly how detrimental is a shot, to any additional animals approaching the stand? I don't find them to be wary, most often, they seem rather deaf, not spooked.
I have found with coyotes and even with deer, in this area, on the lands I hunt, the shot only bothers the animal I am pointed at 90% of the time. There are occassions when a shot will run off the non intended target but not often.
The worst things a hunter can do in this order.
1-Let him smell you 50%
2-Let him see your movement 50%
3-Let him hear you 50%
Even that is on a sliding scale. Again my area is unique. These coyotes smell, see and hear humans every day of their lives.
I have often referred to it this way. If he smells me after I have seen him, I stand a 50% chance of killing him. Likewise for the seeing or hearing.
If he gets all three of those senses alerted, He survives. With only one sense alerted, he may seek confirmation with another of his senses. If he gets two alerted he don't give a rats ass about the last one, he is gone.
Dont let him hear you coming in, dont let him smell you sitting there and don't let him see you preparing to shoot him, you stand a good chance of killing him.
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted May 17, 2010 12:20 PM
Sheesh LB, whats the deal? Right off the bat you go and start with the innuendoes. For crying out loud. I could understand had a made a comment regarding harvesting cabbage, or recovering prunes….but I didn’t. LOL
I will attempt to clarify my statements. On many of the other boards, there is usually a thread starting out with ‘My first double’, or ‘Finally scored a triple’. The story unfolds only to reveal the author made a stand, killed a coyote, kept calling and a few minutes later killed another etc. Thus, the author handled ONE coyote at a time, as apposed to handling more than one like in the circus string you described.
Another analogy would be that of shooting doubles in sporting clays. First you have a follow up double, where one clay is thrown, and as soon as another clay can be loaded, it is thrown also. The shooter deals with one clay at a time in the sight picture, knowing the second will more than likely follow the path of the first. The second is the report double; very similar to the follow up, just a little faster with the second coming on the report of the first shot. The true double comes when two clays are thrown at the same time, and the shooter must deal with two targets in the picture at the same time.
Anyway, semantics for sure. But it seems relevant. At least you didn’t start out calling me amigo.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted May 17, 2010 12:40 PM
I thought I was through with possible the longest post I have ever made here but a thought hit me as I was loading some equipment in the sun.
The number one thing that will ruin a stand for me is sitting in a sunny spot. If the sun is shining find a shadow. I will sit 15 feet from a tree in 4 inch grass if there is a shadow from the tree branches to get me in a shady spot.
So the answer to the question of what is the worst thing to do on a stand. In my opinion, it will be to let the sun shine on me while sitting there.
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2010 01:38 PM
quote:
Sheesh LB, whats the deal?
Quiet whinning! Amigo!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2010 01:39 PM
Randy, that coyote took a long time dying. What was he shot with?
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS, wish we had "cover" like that!
[ May 17, 2010, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted May 17, 2010 01:49 PM
I am with G, If four show up together on a stand and you put them on the ground, you killed a true quad.
If they came in a minute or two apart - you killed 4 on one stand.
almost as bad as going songdog hunting...
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2010 02:13 PM
quote:
I am with G
Look, Amigo! That sort of inflexibility is what killed the dinosaur!
Parsing the difference between a "triple" and three on one stand must be Okie talk, or something? Good thing you guys use machineguns. I guess I'm still bush league; the only thing that counts is how many dead critters get thrown in the truck at the end of a stand.
ELITIST OKIES! Never heard of such a thing!
Boy Howdy!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted May 17, 2010 02:17 PM
cool...hows Rocky
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted May 17, 2010 02:28 PM
Ok ! just for clarification lets say Im sitting on an elevated position, The caller starts and I see three coyotes or (songdogs as Kelly calls em)coming my way they are a long ways off coming from the samee general direction. Three minutes later no.1 shows hisself bang He's down, Two minnutes later no. 2 enters the picture, bang and likwise is that not a double. Just wonderin?
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted May 17, 2010 03:05 PM
quote:
Two minnutes later no. 2 enters the picture
Paul, you can call it whatever you want, but uhhhh....no. LOL
quote:
Quiet whinning! Amigo!
WTF? No whinning here. Just trying to maintain the Clark Kent personna....I would hate to get the reputation of being hard to get along with.
Hey Kelly, don't weakin! Atleast he is capitalizing 'Okie' now. LOL
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted May 17, 2010 03:13 PM
It must drift over the boarder. I fallin in lockstep with the Okies. If three come in single, then you killed three singles. If three come in together. Then you killed a triple.
Same works for doubles. Just subtract one.
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Andy
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