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Author
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Topic: The East will rise again
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 15, 2005 06:32 AM
I have really enjoyed reading this thread.I have never hunted back East so don't know how difficult coyotes are to call back there.But I have called coyotes out west here for a number of years and can say that all coyotes are not created equal even in the west.I can bet you that the coyotes that are in some of the farm areas here in Utah are every bit as hard to call as any of the coyotes back East.So that theory that Eastern coyotes are Smart,Western coyotes are Dumb just doesn't hold true.I believe it's all about population of coyotes or lack of them,hunting pressure,proximity of houses(people) etc.I have hunted some of the rural areas in utah and I would swear there wasn't a coyote within a hundred miles of where I was hunting,but the sheep were still getting killed by them.I still have had limited success calling there, but nothing like the 9 or 10 coyote days we have had in some of the high population areas in the desert. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) FWIW GOOD HUNTING C.O
[ February 15, 2005, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1629 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted February 15, 2005 08:06 AM
I don't know if it safe to say, but I think an above average western hunter probably would be an above average eastern hunter and vice versa.
Dennis
[ February 15, 2005, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted February 15, 2005 08:11 AM
Dennis,
My thoughts exactly.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted February 15, 2005 10:07 AM
I don't think I'd like hunting in the East. I sure hate thinking that I would have to Shake and Howdy all the folks so I could find new places to hunt all over again.
It rains all the time and turns cold and windy. I'd have to buy a whole new wardrobe with one of those funny hats with ear flaps and pile on some additional fat for insulation. Make sure I had antifreeze in the truck, buy studded tires and tick, mosquito and chigger repellant. Freeze to death in a tree stand I have no business in. I quit clumbing trees 35+ years ago. All for just a coyote. Boy. Sounds like a whopping fun time to me.
This is tongue-n-cheek guys. I started out in OK so I know what it's like. I lived in KC and worked on the Missippi for 2 years.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 15, 2005 11:23 AM
And I thought you were being serious, Jay! I'm born in Minnesota, I really do have some idea of the eastern issues.
But, the demographics are moving in this direction; which is not a comforting thought, is it?
All we can do, is do as much as we can to help them, and root for their success and contentment, thereby keeping as many as possible from moving to McNeal, Arizona.
(the Coyote Capital of the free world) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31500 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted February 15, 2005 11:41 AM
quote:
I'm born in Minnesota, I really do have some idea of the eastern issues.
Jeez Leonard, You didn't even know the Mississippi River froze up in the winter.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 15, 2005 11:57 AM
But, I was just a eleven year old kid, and the river was a long walk from where I lived. I used to spear fish the Minnehaha Creek in late winter, early spring, from Lake Hiawatha to the Mississippi, but I do not recall the river, itself, being frozen over? There was a damn and a spillway just upstream.
Anyway, I do remember all the lodgepole pines and the lack of visibility. Many swamps, aside from the 10,000 lakes. I remember seeing exactly two red fox the entire time I lived there, which is one more than I have seen since. We always heard of a few wolf sightings, further north, but I don't recall any chatter about coyotes, anywhere in Minnesota, at the time.
Yet, I admit, I have a very faint grasp of the conditions. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31500 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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222
Knows what it's all about
Member # 567
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posted February 15, 2005 03:46 PM
quote:
I'd have to buy a whole new wardrobe with one of those funny hats with ear flaps
They are one of the warmest thing you ever want to wear, especially if you are a little thin in the hair. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 10 | From: Pa | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 15, 2005 04:26 PM
Is that called being "follicley challenged"???
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 15, 2005 05:13 PM
"I don't know if it safe to say, but I think an above average western hunter probably would be an above average eastern hunter and vice versa."
Dennis
EXACTLY!
I made a parody of a list of respective well-known callers from the east and west to illustrate the point that westerners have been calling coyotes since the early forties and a large number of callers have evolved to almost celebrity status. The men I listed have gained reknown by their achievments and with such callers and authors as Jim Dougherty, Phil Simonsky, Slim Pederson, and Don Laubach have authored a number of well researched books on the subject of calling. These men are willing to share their knowledge with other callers, apparently accomplished eastern callers have not arrived at that state of grace as of yet. The Tx, Az, and CA clubs were taking astounding numbers of coyotes before there was ever a confirmed sighting of a coyote in Pa.
The eastern callers are playing catchup and instead of learning the ropes with gullible unexploited populations they are learning to hunt a phenotype that is expanding it's range in high human population densities and lives it's life on high alert having to contend, on a daily basis, with deer hunters, crow hunters, woodchuck hunters and every pickup with a rifle in it.
It may please some to know that western coyotes are rapidly evolving to that state. Twenty years ago in Az. it was unthinkable to blank on a day of calling. Blank days are becoming more common. A friend of Jay's called on ****** *********** land within the last week and called in 17 coyotes on 5 stands. That was fairly common 20 years ago, now in is remarkable. In 1974 80,000 coyotes were taken in Ca. by hunters. In 1974 in Pa. coyotes were only a rumor. In 1997, the last year for which I have harvest numbers, 47,000 coyotes were taken in Az. by hunters. That is still about 4 times the estimated population of coyotes in Pa.
Having met several eastern callers, I know for a fact that there are some talented and knowledgeable callers back there and they will only get better. When asked what the "next level" is I have to say learning everything about the animals behavior especially it's sense of security.
Reread Byron's 2 posts on the "eastern" thread. Very good.
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 15, 2005 05:24 PM
I grabbed this from the Pennsylvania game commission website
quote:
Once an animal automatically associated with the West, coyotes now live in every state east of the Mississippi River. Pennsylvania's mid 1990s population numbered 20,000 to 30,000, and still appeared to be slowly growing.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 15, 2005 06:00 PM
Hodgen, I can't even accept those estimates, since I think it has to involve a lot of guessing? Coyote population estimates, anywhere, on a statewide basis, seems more like guessing, to me? They could easily be 50% off?
Rich, I don't know what 1ndian re$ervation you are talking aout, AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO TELL ME. But, those numbers are certainly believable....in some places with which I am familiar. All those *s, must be a glitch in the program?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31500 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 15, 2005 06:56 PM
Gee thanks Leonard. Next time we go camping, I'll have to show you some tricks I've learned using live skunks. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Unfortunately, the last two years, I've been running into the same problem here, that drove me out of Indiana.
I keep running out of coyotes to kill before the season is over. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 16, 2005 11:21 AM
Leonard,
Here in Pennsylvania the game commission works closely with the fur-takers to gather data on harvests. This is why we finally got a bobcat season just a few years ago.
Each year the GC sends out what they call a fur-taker survey, in which the license holder records his take for the year. Which is based on the honor system. They are pretty persistant at having you return this survey. One year I didn't send it in, the second one came in the mail and I blew that one off too. Wasn't long after my phone was ringing.
From the years 1998 to 2002 coyote harvest was listed by the GC at 11,652 - 8,797 - 10,160 - 12,363 - 11,444 respectively. Furtaker license sales for the same years run right about 30,000 for an average.
Now we have 750,000 deer hunters hitting the woods who'll try and shoot a coyote on sight. The GC has no available coyote data to go by because reporting it isn't required. I could easily see the deer hunters taking at least the same amount of coyotes, if not more, than the furtakers.
Coyote population appears on the increase, although not fast paced, so we are not stabilizing the population.
Looking at this, I could believe PA carries a coyote population exceeeding those numbers listed from the mid-90's. If they came out today and said they suspect a population between 30,000 - 40,000, my opinion would be they are not far off.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 16, 2005 01:09 PM
Okay, I accept that. But, what relationship is there between harvest and population?
As an example, California, for years had a casual attitude about the number of lions. A figure of 3,000, more or less was taken as graven in stone by the bunny huggers, and used to promote the idea that lions were in serious decline. So, ever since, we have a questionable figure, never questioned as a baseline, and yet, for those that actually DO have a good idea of the population, their data is dismissed because of motive, ie: we want to resume hunting.
We have competing data, but there has never been a legit survey, and lions are extremely difficult to count, so the thinking is: better to error on the safe side. If a few people are killed, that's a small price to pay, in order to preserve these magnificent beasts.
All well and good, but counting wild, free ranging animals is not a science, unless they are deer or something equally easy to spot from a helicopter.
In short, given the woods and forests of Pennsylvania, I'm just not convinced that the people know the best way to accurately count coyotes. My opinion.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31500 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 16, 2005 02:55 PM
quote:
But, what relationship is there between harvest and population?
Well I somewhat agree with you. I don't think there is a rock solid way to get a 100% accurate account of a free roaming population. So you have to work with the best data you got.
But to try and give a somewhat logically answer to your question, let's take bobcats as an example.
PA is broken down into zones concerning wildlife. Bobcats until about 5 years ago were 100% protected. Through surveys, the trappers reported back to the GC how many bobcats were actually caught in sets and released in each zone. After a few years of data, they issued via lottery, a minimal amount of bobcat tags.
Looking at harvest figures from the succesful cat chasers, and again data reported back via fur-taker survey of accidental trap/released cats, no decline was seen.
The next season an increased number of tags were issued, then harvest and survey data was again looked at. No decline in stats.....increase tags the next year.
And that's the way its been going since the first season of the year 2000. Of course that is the short version. You have imput/data from GC biologists, field personell, and a host of other sources I am sure. I guess one could say it's not the best "population" formula. Probably a better word would be "effecting population".
But mixing in the biology known about bobcats, they can get a pretty good idea of a ball park population needed to support such findings scientifically.
I would imagine the same could be said for coyotes. Maybe one of the animal control specialists can chime in here, and tell what percentage of harvest it takes to stabilize a coyote population. I have heard figures of 70%, but it is not my field of expertise. But since our coyote harvests appear to be on the increase, we havn't reached that point yet. So I would assume GC biologists could in fact come up with a formula to get a fairly close figure on population supported by the data they have.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 16, 2005 03:20 PM
Again, my cynicism. Why trust the professional to not have a motive. Like the planted lynx hairs, (you remember that fiasco?) these warden types might do a fair and accurate survey, and then again, maybe they are as biased as any other group with an agenda? As has been mentioned elsewhere, garbage in, garbage out. Educated guesses, at best. But, still guesses. I'm being contrary, but it seems to me that the numbers could be off by 50%, and who's to challenge? Better yet, who cares, right?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31500 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 16, 2005 04:36 PM
Well I would tend to agree about agendas.
Now if we were talking deer numbers in PA.
THOSE have an agenda at the moment...sheesh!!!!
But coyotes and bobcats are down the list of important stuff, so I'd imagine not much funny business is going on. And from what I see in my surroundings, I'd tend to believe those numbers.
But you are right.....I doubt many people care in the big picture.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted February 17, 2005 03:33 AM
"I'm with the government, I'm here to help"
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Kiyiyotie
PAKMAN
Member # 574
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posted February 17, 2005 09:06 AM
jrbhunter, what do you think? i see you're from indiana. how many coyotes do you kill while calling (not trapping or snaring) in indiana and do you think you would call up and kill more coyotes in the west than you do in the east? since you brought up the hypothetical, i was just curious on your own experience and success rate and how you think that would stack up west of the big muddy.
Posts: 4 | From: east | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted February 17, 2005 10:38 AM
Boy that looks familiar. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
My own experience tells me that I would probably be better off staying here in the east because I suck with a rifle. Anything requiring long range accuracy is going to handicap me until I get the time and equipment to concentrate on my riflery skills... that AND wake up with a little more natural talent.
Currently I expect to call and kill anywhere from 6 to 10 coyotes each season Mid-December through February is my calling season. I do a little hunting in the summer, although it is more productive number-wise I don't enjoy the heat. (Another reason I'd rather stay east ![[Cool]](cool.gif) )
Either I am getting better or the population of coyotes is getting higher because this year has offered me more opportunities than ever before. Just last Saturday I called in five coyotes on one stand... thats a record for me and my crew of hunting buddies. I like to think that some flat-open terrain in the west would make it easier to get shots off. I head north every chance I get just to call some of that ground and seem to have better luck getting coyotes in the crosshairs up that way.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted February 17, 2005 11:54 AM
Hypothetically speaking I believe if we sent an excellent western guy east and an excellent eastern guy west for a week I believe that neither would do as well in comparison to the other if they were hunting at home. In other words I think that both would fall short of the precedent set by the other in their own back yard. Both would be successful, but there is something to be said about knowing what the coyotes are doing or will do and guessing what they are doing or will do based on experience from a different pocket of coyotes.
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kiyiyotie
PAKMAN
Member # 574
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posted February 17, 2005 12:08 PM
JRBHUNTER,
quote:
Either I am getting better or the population of coyotes is getting higher because this year has offered me more opportunities than ever before.
so how many have you shot this season? just trying to get a handle on your success rates in indiana. and what looks familiar??? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ February 18, 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Kiyiyotie ]
Posts: 4 | From: east | Registered: Feb 2005
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