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Author
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Topic: Howling as a long range communication
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 19, 2005 02:14 PM
quote:
...Western coyotes so much Dumber than the Eastern variety? Doesn't their sound travel across the Mississippi?
Suppose so? However, as someone pointed out to me in an email, those dumb western coyotes can cross the Mississippi River when it is frozen; thereby becoming a lot smarter, in the process.
Good hunting. LB
Damn, it sure is getting warm around here!
[ July 19, 2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted July 19, 2005 04:47 PM
Do they communicate long distances? Seems pretty obvious that they do. Why else howl in the first place? What are they saying? Don’t have a clue. Personally I can’t tell the difference between a threat bark howl and a warning bark howl. Sometimes they approach, sometimes they don’t.
Do I worry about moving away after frustrating stand? No. Then again I will put a hundred miles on during a 15 stand day.
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 19, 2005 07:12 PM
Cougerbait,
I NEVER said impossible, I have said "it's hard to do".
Gee... I never thought of Vancouver/Portland as a mountainous place?
Isn't that in the Willamette VALLEY?
Krusty 
[ July 19, 2005, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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CougerBait
Knows what it's all about
Member # 149
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posted July 19, 2005 07:58 PM
Krusty,
I hunt the side of mount st. hellens. My bear canyon is at 4000 feet. And the timber here is just as thick as they are where you hunt. I know you are smart enough to know that the cascades run a little farther south than I-90. The hills that I hunt are just as big if not bigger that the humtulips. I really don't think that the size of the hill that you hunt matters. It is the way you hunt them. I have called coyotes in every part of this state. All different kinds of terain. I'm not a pro. I also don't shoot 100 coyotes a year. I think that 20-50 coyotes a year is about what I average on the wet side. I know that dosen't compare to guys that have better hunting than we do. But I think most guys on the wet side are lucky to kill more than 10 dogs a year (the only reason I say this is I haven't found any body that has, except for Bruce). Most people will not take the time to hunt this side. They say that it is too thick. That is fine by me. The way gas prices are I would reather hunt this side any ways. Plus there is less compition over here. I like hunting hard.We do hunt the farm lands just as much as the mountains. And kill about the same in each.
This wasn't ment as a chalange or a put down. I just find it hard to believe that you aren't hearing songdogs in the hills at night. I have had them light up at 10 in the morning! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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CougerBait
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Remember to all ways look behind you for the big cats!!!!!
Posts: 60 | From: washington | Registered: Mar 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 19, 2005 09:09 PM
quote:
I find it interesting that you don't hear any coyotes at night in the cascades. Heck I here them by my house at least once a week.
Hearing them in the Willamette Valley, doesn't explain why you think I should hear them in the mountains.
How many coyotes have you called in King or Snohomish Counties?
What was it meant as? 
Krusty
[ July 19, 2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted July 19, 2005 09:49 PM
I have a few questions to ask.
1.Why would territorial coyotes share there bounty with coyotes outside there family group?We know that coyotes in the same family will show aggressive behavior towards one another while feeding.Would they not be even worse with strange coyotes?
2.Is all this coyote vocalization at the dead cow,deer,pronghorn meant to let other coyotes(outside the group)in on the feed?Or are they naturally vocal when feeding on a large bounty and give there location away unintentional?
3.A nomadic coyote comes upon a carcass.Why would he start howling to let strange coyotes know where he and the carcass are at?Would he not be taking a chance that these strange coyotes in the area,would not try to fight or kill him?
4.If they aren't vocal with a small animal carcass,why are they with a large?and want to share it with strangers?
This thread brings many questions to mind..I sorta picked this out of what i read.
I know you all are not coyotes,so it's ok if there is no answeres.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dogleg
Knows what it's all about
Member # 662
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posted July 19, 2005 10:11 PM
In Saskatchewan there are few major river valley systems that I like to call. Most of it is prime real estate, coyote-wise and in places there is precious little else for cover or terrain breaks. In places it can amount to several hundred miles of concentrated, uninterrupted coyote country. When you get a pack lit up, the next gets into the act and the next. Because of the high valley walls keeping wind down and funneling the sound, you can hear bunches for miles in both directions. I have no doubt that after a bit of time coyotes in Alberta are howling because of some noise that I made in Sask. That should qualify as a chain reaction? You can still kill those coyotes by moving on down the line. After a few sets there has been wave after wave of howls rolling down the pipe. If they were sending a warning that was accepted by the next pack, I would think that the first set-up might as well be the last. Sometimes I think it helps, sometimes nothing works, but moving toward the closest answers,as much as the wind allows works for me. I use it in a lot of other terrain types too.
Mike
Posts: 30 | From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | Registered: Jun 2005
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CougerBait
Knows what it's all about
Member # 149
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posted July 20, 2005 06:06 AM
Willamette Valley is in Oregon, and I not refurring to the valley. Don't know why you just don't understand that. Do you think that you have special coyotes in just 2 1/2 hours north of me? And the areas that you are talking about is a valley. I have called 2 in up there. I was NE of Everett. And I call them and hear them in the Cascades.
I give up totaly on you now. All you like to do any more is argue. I really don't have time for that. Good luck pouting and feeling sorry for your self.
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CougerBait
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Remember to all ways look behind you for the big cats!!!!!
Posts: 60 | From: washington | Registered: Mar 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted July 20, 2005 07:30 AM
I tend to agree that there is some kind of communicating going on. At what level, I can only speculate. Mostly, I believe, they are saying one of two things. Come over here or stay away from here. Just about the right level for a nonthinking and nonreasoning animal.
If they were capable of much more, doubles and triples in traps would be nonexistant. First coyote in would warn others to stay away, danger is present here. When in fact, the opposite is true. The first coyote actually attracts other coyotes to their demise with it's barks and howls.
And by the way,walking up on multiples is about the only time I hear barks and howls in the daytime.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 20, 2005 01:09 PM
Randy, if you wanted to trap a human being probably the best way to do so would be to place a small child in a trap and have it scream for help. You would surely catch the mother, probably the father and brothers and sisters as well. Human beings are prone to panic in the face of great fear or emotional stress. The logical thought processes cease. That is why the government trains it's personnel that are involved in dangerous high-stress jobs to the point that they can function on muscle memory without conscious thought. You call the the coyote a non-thinking and non-reasoning animal in one paragraph and then condemn it for not functioning in a manner that most humans aren't capable of in the next.
[ July 20, 2005, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 20, 2005 01:28 PM
Melvin, this one answer addresses all four of your questions.
quote:
1.Why would territorial coyotes share there bounty with coyotes outside there family group?We know that coyotes in the same family will show aggressive behavior towards one another while feeding.Would they not be even worse with strange coyotes?
They would not do so willingly. However aggregation numbers are sometimes too high to defend against. Camanzind observed 26 coyotes, as an aggreagation, take possession of an elk carcass from the resident pack on the NER. Crabtree and Ryden observed the same thing in Yellowstone. When the numbers of intruders become so great the the residents can no longer defend the carcass they have no choice but to share.In Africa hyenas will take a kill away from a pride of lionesses when the hyena numbers reach three to one over the lions.( NGC last nite ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) That is the benefit of aggregations and since at certain times of the year as much as 60% of the population is nomadic it would be in the transients coyotes best interests to announce the location of deadpiles or carcasses and to respond to such announcements.
Rich Higgins
Prostaff member
Huntmasters Pampass Know It All Team
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted July 20, 2005 01:55 PM
Rich,
You're right.
I was trying to say if a coyote was overly concerned about communicating the whereabouts of food and danger, then where is that same concern in the trapping example?
I have found fresh bite marks on the flanks of trapped coyotes with no coyotes in nearby traps.I assume this was from other coyotes who came to the sound of barks and howls of the trapped coyote. More than likely their intentions were not to help. I have found several red fox and one grey that were dead in traps. Killed and some even mutialted by coyotes. It stands to reason that they would try to do the same to their own kind no matter what the trapped coyote is trying to communicate.
Around here, I have heard warning barks on a few occasions. I believe the coyote senses something is just not right, but not sure exactly what it is. Had the coyote got a good whiff of me, he would be beating feet with ears pinned back and head 4 inches off the ground. He would be too busy getting the H out of there and definately no time for commuicating my location with idle chitchat.
And one more thing. Rich, I believe you know more about coyote vocalizations than anyone I know. Most of it is based on speculation from vast experience, but knowledge just the same.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 20, 2005 02:00 PM
quote:
I give up totaly on you now.
GOOD!
I never asked for your opinion or your advice.
I don't LEAD anyone anywhere, people LIKE YOU jump to your own conclusions... and anyone who decides to follow my lead is an idiot.
I don't feel sorry for myself, I don't care anymore, if I ever call in a coyote or not (especially ILLEGALLY).
20-50 coyotes a year... as Vic would say, "that's incredible". ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Back to the subject this thread IS about;
So, do coyotes howl, to warn others to stay out of their territory?
Why does a coyote need a territory?
What if there ARE NO OTHERS?
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 20, 2005 02:26 PM
Randy, I really wish I did know a great deal about their vocalizations. The truth is that I'm simply at a level that I have more questions than most. I can take solace in the fact that the biologists that I bug the crap out of with my incessant questions have even more questions than I. And if you think that we on the board can get a little hot or fiesty with each other you ought to hear what goes on at the academia level. It ain't pretty.
[ July 20, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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CougerBait
Knows what it's all about
Member # 149
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posted July 20, 2005 10:32 PM
 
And that is all I have to say about that!
[ July 20, 2005, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: CougerBait ]
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CougerBait
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Remember to all ways look behind you for the big cats!!!!!
Posts: 60 | From: washington | Registered: Mar 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 21, 2005 06:12 PM
This is in the form of a public notice.
KRUSTY, quit bothering the customers!
I already wrote you twice. This is your last chance to escape terrible consequences.
....and don't write me another long sappy letter. I told you what to do, and you aren't doing it.
The Management
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted July 22, 2005 09:35 AM
Rich,thanks for giving me you're answere to those questions.One of the reasons i asked the questions,'when calling from a stand,there are times you will call in two large coyotes that have there ears,face and other parts of there bodys chewed up.I took this as overlap and they were fighting over the food in that area.For them to share there bounty with other coyotes, would seem hard to except.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 22, 2005 12:29 PM
Melvin another jewel from one of Mike Jaeger's studies
They captured 94 coyotes 142 times. Some were radio collared, all were tagged. Only 9 of 30 resident(territorial) coyotes were captured within their core territory. All others were captured in ovrlapping ranges or in other territories.'
That would account for your trapped coyotes being attacked.
They concluded that "general wariness or neophobia in familiar areas was an important cause of spatial vulnerablilty: although heightened investigatory behavior in unfamiliar areas cannot be ruled out as an additional factor."
Conclusion: some coyotes will shy away from disturbances within familiar areas but investigate them in unfamiliar areas.
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted July 22, 2005 05:53 PM
Rich,I know i'm being a pest bugging you for information but this could be helpful for me and maybe others.
Quote:-
Conclusion: some coyotes will shy away from disturbances within familiar areas but investigate them in unfamiliar areas.
If i was calling in an area that was unfamiliar to coyotes that were out of there territorial grounds,they would likely respond to my calling?where upon,in familiar ground they may not?Especially if they had detected or got the scent from callers in there domain and became call shy?I have gave up calling some areas because of calling pressure.Maybe this was a mistake?they still could produce for me?
Rich,believe me,these coyotes are getting smarter and harder to call!All these clubs got hunters out'trapping and calling' by the hundreds and it's getting tougher and harder as time goes by.In the last 3 or 4 years coyote hunting has increased dramatically in this state.Increasing ones knowledge about the animal he pursues can be very helpful(reason for this last question.)
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted July 22, 2005 08:24 PM
"I really wish I did know a great deal about their vocalizations. The truth is that I'm simply at a level that I have more questions than most."
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Rich Higgins,
Now that is something that several of us can agree on. The more we try to figure out the coyote, the more confused we seem to become. I think maybe we try to be too scientific regarding coyote language. We know that coyotes will approach certain yips and howls of another coyote. From a coyote hunter's point of view, that really should be enough to make us happy. So does all of that make ME happy? Nope. I have some of the same questions that you do.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 22, 2005 09:24 PM
I have been thinking about this "territory stuff".
quote:
Only 9 of 30 resident(territorial) coyotes were captured within their core territory. All others were captured in ovrlapping ranges or in other territories.'
That would account for your trapped coyotes being attacked.
Now, I don't know how they set up boundaries, but it seems to me that they must share resources. Like, where water is scarce, like in the desert; they can't control all of those strays that need to cross territory to get a drink. Then, as a tank dries up, as most of these are catchment basins, the coyotes would need to adjust the scope of their territory, as a survival mechanism.
That's just one detail. I can see others, seasonal dispersal, breeding, extreme weather conditions. For instance, I have seen where coyotes are forced from the mountains into the valley floors, in a heavy snow. I do not believe they have any thought of respecting territorial boundaries as they seek shelter from a blizzard.
All I am saying is that I haven't studied these things, just casually observed. I can certainly see where all the drawn lines don't mean squat when conditions change. And, that's one thing about conditions...they change.
Therefore, I (sort of) question the above figures, (9 0f 30) mainly because there are so many things going on that we don't know, and the term; "resident" coyote strikes me as very subjective, unless I were to see real documentation. Maybe this concerns breeding pairs, or something like that?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted July 23, 2005 05:55 AM
Interesting discussion.
I watched a documentary on coyotes a couple yrs back on cable. One part of this vid-clip. It shown this very large coyote[perhaps male]. Who had crossed onto an alpha-pr's territory.
This tresspasser was eating on "their" deer carcass. Then, here came the resident pair to confront...[They were much smaller than this coyote].
They both charged at him/her, et ran it off w/o a hard fight. Perhaps a 100yrds or so. This straggler continued to move off, w/o further pushing.
The "narraitor" stated, "Even though this [overlapper] was larger" It...[he/she] knew they were tresspassing, et would offer little resistance to confronting the resident coyote[s].
As for the term "resident" I personally think of the [alpha pair]. Who continue to breed & hold their territory.
[ July 23, 2005, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 23, 2005 11:49 AM
Melvin, I really do sympathize with your calling predicament, but it is one shared by callers in many states including mine. As more pressure is exerted on the coyotes they will adapt. It does not take a close call to teach a coyote to avoid certain sounds. They will learn to avoid danger from other coyotes.
Stuart Ellins is researching coyote communication and in one experiment he seperated two different groups of coyotes into two kennels and fed both groups sheep meat. One group's was laced with lithium which made the coyotes violently ill and they refused to eat sheep again. They combined the coyotes into one enclosure and immediately NONE of the coyotes would eat sheep meat. He doesn't know if the message was relayed by a flare in pheromones, an undetected change in behavior or body language but somehow through some means that Ellins hasn't figured out yet the one group was able to convey to the other group "Don't eat that shit."
Melvin, IT WILL NOT GET EASIER. No one can tell you to how to set-up a stand and how to call that will work on all of your educated coyotes. They are all different individuals with different personalities and behaviors. You will learn which techniques are more successful over time as you learn more about your Eastern coyotes.
Twenty years ago it was common to call multiples on most stands here in Az. They would come directly to the call with enthusiasm. Now in most areas they come more cautiously, and in some areas they rarely come directly in. This spring the AZ F&G Dept sponsored a coyote calling event on the Rim to reduce coyote numbers just prior to antelope fawning season. During the two day event 44 experienced callers, mostly from the two big predator clubs in this area, killed 9 coyotes.
IT WILL NOT GET BETTER.
Successful callers will learn the nature and behaviors of the coyotes in their areas and develope techniques that will exploit the coyotes use of terrain and cover in their approach to the downwind side.
Remote areas with relatively unpressured populations of coyotes are going to become Club Med to serious callers.
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted July 23, 2005 11:51 AM
If I may take a sec to quote a very respected coyote sage...I think this about sums it up. "They're just a dog"...
Good hunting
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 23, 2005 11:55 AM
Rich, welcome back. I'm glad you are recuperating well. My fater-in-law just went through double bypass and almost didn't make it. He ain't as tough as you.
You know that of all the studies of coyotes that have been conducted, all of the reams of facts that have been discovered, very little has any application to calling. Still all of it is fascinating.
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