|
Author
|
Topic: killing predators ethical?
|
Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
|
posted October 18, 2005 09:47 PM
Tom,
That's exactly why I'm trying to transfer up to Tombstone right now. I've got a new Boss, who was my former partner. I ran him off as a Troubleman because he's dumber than a post and too lazy to even grow moss.
I've a real low tolerance for stupid people who ask stupid questions. Especially when they already asked the same question twice before.
I've got to get out of that Douglas Office before he asks for my opinion again.
--------------------
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted October 19, 2005 07:29 AM
At least you guys can go home to get away from your ass-hole boss.
I'm self employed.
IP: Logged
|
|
LionHo
Knows what it's all about
Member # 233
|
posted October 19, 2005 11:04 AM
Q's post got me thinking about a few things.
I've come to the conclusion that sport hunting of coyotes is not a primary threat. There are other much bigger issues at play that anyone who cares about coyote numbers and keeping systems in balance might better devote their hand-wringing to. Bottom line is that ranchers need educated about coyotes.
First, let me mention in my particular section seeing a coyote is much more rare than seeing a bobcat. Probably something like 10:1, in my experience. And they're not very socially vocal. Also tend to be sneakers on the call.
Secondly, there are a lot of old cattle ranches with some very well-connected old time ranchers along with the Johnny-come-lately celebrity ones, many of whom benefit from cheap grazing leases on adjacent federal lands.
Third, there is a multi-billion-dollar agricultural base in the nearby Salinas Valley, with a lot of crop-dusters, most of them helicopters, incidentally (which machinery often sits idle at certain times of the year).
So 15 years ago I was kicking around the idea of doing a story on #1, call-shy coyotes, and digging for a bit of research (fancied myself as an outdoor writer in those days, had even had articles published in national mags a few times) and happened to be talking to a local oldtimer biologist (about accessing their research field station for calling critters to the camera) when the subject of Compound 1080 happened to come up.
Here I'd thought the use of 1080 went out with the registration being pulled for use on predators in the 70's. Apparently a lot of it had been stockpiled; also its reg hadn't been pulled for use on rodents. Coyotes were practically wiped out locally due to 1080 was her contention.
Now at first I was skeptical of this. From talking to ranchers, my gut told me that coyotes here had just been persecuted for a couple of centuries and had become call shy. But the numbers were much, much lower than one would expect if they had done so and if this was their primary threat. Couple of other bits of info lent much more credence to the woman biologists opinion.
"Mark L." the top federal biologist at the time for a couple of huge military bases in South County told me--off the record that were it not for 1080 the San Joaquin Kit Fox would not be on the Endangered Species list. Mark wasn't any tree-hugger, he was a hunter himself and just frustrated with the cattle grazing that was going on under his nose that he had a limited ability to control. He suggested that the ground squirrels were competion for grazing, and that 1080 was indeed used, but that it was persistent in the environment and "triple-kill", meaning that if a fox came along six months later and ate a dead squirrel, it'd croak and so would a coyote that scavenged the fox. (If you don't know about how specific and deadly to canids 1080 is, you might wanna bone up on this).
And next piece of the puzzle was one day I was talking with a good buddy of mine, Bill Tucker, who for many years was a helicopter crop-duster over in the Salinas Valley, when he happened to mention having received an award for having achieved an 80% kill ratio on ground squirrels over a 100,000 acre area that he'd personally applied (broadcast millet seed coated with 1080). This was in the late 80's, long after 1080 had fallen off everybody's radar, long after Hope Ryden's Song-Dog book that had called attention to it and had lead to the registration ban for predators (think "Silent Spring" for coyotes) had fallen off the best-seller list.
It's not just a saying that the ground squirrels have become a plague, here they actually vector the fleas that carry bubonic plague when their numbers get high enough. Which is sometimes used as a justification for exterminating them when plague is present. Couple of soldiers and kids at Ft. Hunter Liggett have contracted it through the years. But squirrels aren't the only vectoring critters for the fleas, so wiping them out doesn't work.
Problem being the squirrels rebounded really quickly, the coyotes and kit foxes didn't. Too, overgrazed land doesn't allow coyotes or fox a stalking approach and their success at killing squirrels plummets. So this eradication program turned out to be a dismal failure for it's underlying intended purpose, which was to reduce competition for grazing, cattle versus squirrel.
More squirrels than ever.
By the early 90's exotic escaped red fox were really thriving in the Salinas Valley, seeming taking over the coyote niche in the same sorts of grassland areas. (I figure they avoided 1080 poisoning themselves by being more focused on waterfowl and ground-nesting birds). Red fox have singlehandedly been responsible for nearly extincting clapper rails and snowy plover, and have extirpated burrowing owls. Unfortunately, they're also really cute, and there is an actual endangered Sierran subspecies of red fox, so no hunting season was to be for reds. Instead, USFW had to launch a trapping campaign to reduce their numbers. Nobody's taking credit but more effectively somebody released a few with sarcoptic mange that really knocked them for a loop.
Chances are red fox will rebound to cause havoc as long as coyotes are repressed.
Considering all this, I won't ever hunt coyotes hereabouts. But even so, the poisoning had a much greater and more lasting effect than hunting them would, and set a whole chain of other unintended consequences in motion.
[ October 19, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: LionHo ]
Posts: 88 | From: Ventana Wilderness, CA | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
|
posted October 19, 2005 03:41 PM
Ethical killing of predators? Check out your own government at work...Killing pups in a den....killing the bitch and let the pups starve to death....Shooting,killing and wounding coyotes from the air and letting them lay? When it comes to coyotes, nothing is ethical as far as our government or cattle ranchers are concerned.
The real truth is, more cows die from eating bad grass. Besides, what coyote in it's right mind would attack a full grown healthy cow, bull or horse?
Calf killers? the truth is 95% of the time, something else killed the calf and the coyotes are just taking advantage.
The problem is, you can't explain that to a cattle rancher because they don't want to hear it, the same can be said about our goverment.
Hunters being ethical? after what our own government does to coyotes and other critters, I'd think hunters are very ethical. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ October 19, 2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
--------------------
Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted October 19, 2005 05:40 PM
When I die, I am going to Heaven and I'm really going to miss you guys.
IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted October 19, 2005 07:02 PM
Tom,
I have a boss that pulls the same kind of crap. I've just learned not to speak to him anymnore than I have to, and then, only the facts. Case in point, he has a real hard-on for female letter carriers. Especially if they don't have veteran's preference. We have one full time female carrier that was in his office as our union contact person discussing a conflict between a few carriers and a new policy that it was felt contradicted our contract. He wouldn't budge and would rather have allowed yet another grievance against him. On the way out, the carrier asks him if he always has to be an ass. He smirked and said, "Yeah, as a matter of fact." Then, he turns around and files an insubordination complaint against her and threatens her with a week's suspension without pay. Time for arbitration. She files a grievance and in comes the union steward and another office manager. She had spoke with me and when she told me the dialogue that occurred, I reminded her that she had verbage on her side. Words have meaning. She didn't call him an ass hole like he alleges and upon which he based his disciplinary action. She asked him if he was an ass, and he agreed. In a manner of speaking, he called himself an ******* . She used that in her defense and the arbitrators agreed. He lost his complaint and she won her grievance. End of discussion. Sounds like you need to document the dialogue that occurred between you and emphasize the fact that he asked you for your opinion first.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
|
posted October 19, 2005 08:03 PM
I had a talk with the boss again today. I told him that "asking" for my opinion (in private) was not the same as me publicly expressing my opinion. Then I told him that using that confidentially obtained information as leverage against me was "entrapment". I told him that if I were to take this to the Labor Board, the Company would probably have to pay me a large settlement.
He hemmed and hawed, then said he wasn't "really" going to file a written reprimand in my employee folder. I said, "Oh, so you were just using it as an opportunity lie, threaten, and intimidate me?"
He said, as a Mrg. he is "obliged" to be politically correct. I just turned around and walked out of his office.
I've been around the barn a few times, so I can read the writing on the wall. I spent the rest of the day updating my resume.
From now on when asked my opinion, I'll just politely decline. People don't want your opinion when they ask. They want you to confirm theirs. Ethics? They're not static, they're not a fixed standard. They're in flux, to suit the situation at a given time.
"But don't ask me what i think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to" - ..... Fleetwood Mac
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
|
posted October 19, 2005 08:19 PM
I've always spoke my mind to my supers & boss's. Whether they asked me or not. Not good, if your looking for an easy-time. Don't give a rats carcass, regardless. It's just a job.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
|
posted October 19, 2005 09:30 PM
NASA, Tim, From what you describe your bosses are prime examples of what I believe is called The Peter Principle. It's when a person is promoted to their highest level of imcompetence. The only reason I know this is my wife is in Human Relations Management and once when I bitched about my incompetent boss she told me this was the reason. If it makes you feel any better you can now attach a fancy name for the reason a idiot can become the guy in charge.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
|
posted October 20, 2005 07:09 AM
Q,
Good post as always. With the county programs here, I basically work for several different ranchers. Almost all of the actual killing problems are in sheep here. Occasionally a calf will actually be killed, but in most instances I can prove that the calf died before being fed on. Not so with sheep. Killing can be rampant, and they do kill sheep year around. But rancher exadgeration does occur in the sheep deal also. Some of you have watched the video that we have out, and we do give some clues as to finding actual kills that the coyotes are responsible for. But most guys won't take the time to skin out a three day old pile of rotten meat and maggots. I would have liked to include alot more footage of "damage", but I'm not sure how many people really care to see that in a video, and I do have more that will be included in some later videos. There are good and bad in all the world and that includes federal trappers of any sort, ranchers, and recreational callers. All can stretch the truth and claim things that aren't true. But what is true is that coyotes do kill things, and if you have too many coyotes, they kill too many things. Try to find antelope fawns in high coyote areas after about the 20th of June. There won't be many left. Deer fawns also. Ethics come down to personal opinion. That is all there is to it as near as I can tell. The reality is that without some control by all of us (including paid coyote hunters) the coyote will deplete their prey base, and at that point they will die off from starvation and disease, then the prey base will rebound, the coyote will rebound and we start all over again. Simple facts of nature. In any species either we can manage them or mother nature will, and she's alot crueler than any of us ever will be. Coyote control is really the only way to insure a stable healthy population for all of us to hunt.
--------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
|
posted October 20, 2005 08:01 AM
Good post Cal. Mother Nature is the ultimate predator. I've often have wondered about the ethics of "banking" coyotes for the intent of maximizing harvest numbers and profits. Seems to me that the potential would be there to let Mother Nature have the upper hand. Whack'em and Stack'em!
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barndog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 255
|
posted October 25, 2005 03:25 PM
Off the topic a little. I've done a little coyote ranch work. Mostly sheep. Last year a rancher was loosing geese, after removing 3 coyotes from the area, he lost a young colt to coyotes. Actual death was from starvation, the coyotets had mangeled one of his hind legs. Funny thing was that they didn't touch anything else.
When I was in highschool we were gathering cows and found a cow with her guts strung out for a couple of miles, which was the work of coyotes. Some would argue a cougar, but we loose cows all the time to cougars, there is no mistaking a cougar kill. Most of the time the cougar will try and hid the kill.
A rancher is the 80's on Cedar Mtn. lost over 90 sheep and lambs to a cougar teaching her two cubs to kill. But the coolest preditor kill I seen was in college during a predator control class, were a bald eagle was standing in a small meadow when a lamb walked right up to it. The eagle reaches out with a talon while standing on the other and crushes the lambs head than then flies away with the lamb. Anyway just a few stories from this end of the world.
Most of the time we see coyotes there are cows in the same field. They seem to tolerate each other. Once in a while a pack of coyotes will take town a calf, but very rare.
Posts: 185 | From: Idaho | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
|
posted October 25, 2005 05:12 PM
WoW! That's all I can say.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
