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Author
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Topic: 50 # coyote with play by play pictures of kill.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 23, 2005 08:14 AM
It is just like this little gem, below. Scientists are frequently guilty of fraud, how are they going to get caught, what's the risk, when there is millions at stake, in grants. And, who knows where the money goes. Charlatans, snake oil salesmen! I'm supposed to believe these guys when they tell me all about wolf DNA in eastern coyotes?
quote:
Updated: 10:00 AM EST
Disgraced Stem-Cell Researcher Resigns From Post
University Says Scientist Faked 9 of 11 Results He Claimed to Create
By BO-MI LIM, AP
Jung Yeon-je, AP
Talking to reporters, Hwang Woo-suk apologizes for his actions.
News Interactive:
· Cultivating Embryonic Stem Cells
SEOUL, South Korea (Dec. 23) - South Korean researcher Hwang Woo-suk resigned from his university on Friday after the school said he fabricated stem-cell research
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted December 23, 2005 09:50 AM
So, I'm confused ![[Confused]](confused.gif) . Is the coyote Rod shot an Eatsern coyote or a Western coyote? Or is a coyote at all? Do I really care?
Are hillbilly rednecks like me any less intellegent than college educated rich kids?
Are kids raised on the streets any smarter than those that have been pampered?
I've guided many a hunter from back east and have a pretty good grasp on why these guy's don't kill many coyotes. Besides the fact that they don't have many coyotes and the fact that the terrain is not very conducive for calling. They just simply have very little knowlege of coyotes and their behavior. It tickles me when guys that have never hunted out west assume that the Western coyotes are dumber and that is why we're able to kill them in larger numbers. These same guys that have never hunted out West tell us we don't understand because we have never hunted back East. Can you have both ways? I have hunted both, and for the life of me can't tell the difference in their intelligence. Have I killed many coyotes in the East? No. But I'm smart enough to realize that there are many reasons, the least of which, has anything to do with their intelligence.
How do they assume they get smarter as you go East? Are they eating some type of brain food? It is simple common since that coyotes are tougher to call and kill in places where they spend larger amounts of time in close proximatey to man. The exception being in larger cities where they, for generations, have lived with little fear of man. They adapt.
Here is another flaw in the wolf/coyote theory. Wolves were killed nearly to the point of exstinction over a relatively short period of time. From this I would come to the conclusion they are easier to kill than a coyote. Coyotes have been aggresively pursued for lots of years through trapping, hunting, poison, and even airial gunning, but still seem to thrive. Mixing a wolf with a coyote would tend to make me think this would dumb down the breed and make it more vulnerable to the hunter. Not the opposite.
Ok, Now with all this said, and assuming the Eastern coyote is smarter. Just how much smarter can he be than a coyote under the same set of circumstances say in Washington state or any other state or region that has these same difficulties calling and killing coyotes.
Now for the last time. Their are places where it is easier to kill coyotes, but it has nothing to do with their brain power and all to do with PRESSURE, TERRAIN, and POPULATION. It's really quiet simple.
We have a few elk here in Texas so why do Texans go to Colorado and Wyoming to elk hunt. Are they dumber there? No it just make since to expect better results from the larger population offered there. This East VS. West thing is no different.
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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InjunJoe
unknown comic
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posted December 23, 2005 09:57 AM
To answer your question about if Rod shot a Eastern or Western coyote.
It is'nt either one.
Those are called Tweeners.
Or Tweenerdogs if you prefer.
[ December 23, 2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: InjunJoe ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 23, 2005 10:01 AM
I don't know if Byron considers himself a hillbilly, or a southerner or what, but I like this line of reasoning.....
quote:
Here is another flaw in the wolf/coyote theory. Wolves were killed nearly to the point of exstinction over a relatively short period of time. From this I would come to the conclusion they are easier to kill than a coyote. Coyotes have been aggresively pursued for lots of years through trapping, hunting, poison, and even airial gunning, but still seem to thrive. Mixing a wolf with a coyote would tend to make me think this would dumb down the breed and make it more vulnerable to the hunter. Not the opposite.
Good hunting. LB
edit: or tweeneryotes
[ December 23, 2005, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted December 23, 2005 10:25 AM
Good one Byron.
This discussion begs the question:
Are coyotes more difficult to trap back East and do Eastern coyote trappers do anything different than, let's say, trappers in Iowa or Montana?
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted December 23, 2005 10:58 AM
Quote, "There's lots of successful coyote hunters back east. I suggest you contact BM."
LMFAO!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Is that Sue or Mark's sense of humor we're being treated to? Great reply. I just got busted screwing around on the net instead of working. I just had to laugh out loud!
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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RonDell
PAKMAN
Member # 761
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posted December 23, 2005 10:59 AM
Byron,
I registered just to tell you that thiose pictures are great. When will the video be for sale?
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Ron
Posts: 9 | From: LA | Registered: Dec 2005
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Rod Haydel
PAKMAN
Member # 762
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posted December 23, 2005 11:07 AM
"I'm not a smart man...but I no wat love IS." Killin those big suckers. This piece of property does seem to carry those genes though. Here is a photo of 2 shot about 5 years ago. You can see the ressemblance.
Posts: 4 | From: Bossier City LA | Registered: Dec 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted December 23, 2005 11:26 AM
A neighbor of mine. He owned two "monster" sized German Shepherds. Different pups from different litters. When he picked both pups, he said the parents & all the pups. Were average sized dogs.
Anyways...At the age of 2yrs, both of these dogs. Grew to weigh, one at 130lbs the other one 135lbs. Very large Big-boned muscular canines.
I said, one day "Were your dogs, unusally large as pups?"
Answer, "No...just average".
He went on to say, that during the pup's first 2 year's, especially the 1st yr. He feed them both each a couple [family]cartons of "Cottage Cheese" daily. Huh!... .
He stated this [mega-dose] of "Calcium" & Vitamim D. During their 1st yr growth. Made all the difference ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . He has seen their sibling pups, as adults...All of average size .
Perhaps, this may also figure into the scenario of monster coyotes. Nutrition wise that is.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted December 23, 2005 11:47 AM
That makes sense. They push nutrients for food plots on deer. Why not coyote food plots too?
Rod, I'll be looking you up to sign my book at the shot show.
Can you tell us what goodies you'll be introducing?
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 23, 2005 11:58 AM
That's unethical as hell. Feeding cottage cheese laced with HGH just so they yield more pounds at harvest, not including the flea collars. Feral coyotes?
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Rod Haydel. Glad to have you on board.
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, RonDell. Glad to have you on board, as well.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rod Haydel
PAKMAN
Member # 762
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posted December 23, 2005 12:37 PM
Jay
I would be glad to sign your book. The new goodies I will have is a new Open Reed Howler. We will also offer it in a combo kit with a short instructional video that me and Byron are working on that will also include some short hunts to get the guys pumped up. The combo also comes with our GHC distress call.
The nutrition thing does make since as a matter of fact me and Byron were just talking about this.
Coyotes in our areas have plenty of food close at hand and do not have to travel far to get a meal. Also due to our relatively warm climate they do not burn these extra calories trying to stay warm.
Comparing these to dogs I have two labs that are litter mates both eat high protein performance type food. They both eat as if the are starving to death. The female I put on a diet early this fall she gets 3/4 cup of food a day to sustain her weight level. The male is the same size but must eat 5 cups to maintain his weight. Both get the same amount of exercise. It's just the way they metabolize food. If I let the female eat as much as the male I guarantee you she would be 15-20 lbs heavier than the male. Both are 7 years old which I suspect the coyote in question to be. I am getting this one mounted and saving the skull to verify the age.
Coyote Food Supplements!...SHHHH I can see it now. "Dont let that big Alpha Male kick sand in you face anymore..."
Posts: 4 | From: Bossier City LA | Registered: Dec 2005
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Rod Haydel
PAKMAN
Member # 762
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posted December 23, 2005 01:13 PM
Okay here's the truth. There is this little old lady that I know that feeds a fresh pan of hotwater cornbread to the coyotes everynight laced with these supplements.
Posts: 4 | From: Bossier City LA | Registered: Dec 2005
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted December 23, 2005 01:29 PM
Wow! One coyote's eyes reflect whit, another reflects blue and the last one reflects red. It is common to have different coloring night hunting?
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted December 23, 2005 01:44 PM
Byron
Spent 10 years in southern CA did I hunt coyotes there no, did I call them yes. Toured all over the west when I was in the music industry, plenty of time off to call coyotes (had fishing license in 26 different states the one year), sorry I misled you before. This statement would be correct ---> I have never hunted and killed a coyote in the west.
Are college educated people more intelligent???? Are kids raised on the streets any smarter than those that have been pampered? I would say college educated people on average are better at certain things because they are educated. Kids raised in the street are street smarter. The two questions U posted have nothing to do with what I said, but figured I would answer them.
I am saying that they are different animals and one is a little sharper than the other. A coyote is a coyote and a dog is a dog, but is a Dalmatian as smart as a Golden Retriever???? Please answeer that.
I feel like a Steeler fan in Dallas right now because I think I am out numbered. So I am going to bug-out.
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
Posts: 46 | From: PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 23, 2005 02:14 PM
Okay, CB~
You are entitled to your opinion. So is everyone else, and since this is not something put to a vote, your opinion carries just as much weight as mine....or Byron's.
Seems like you are drifting from the wolf DNA in eastern coyotes, and they are larger animals, to "eastern coyotes are smarter"? I am reasonably sure you have nothing to support that opinion as fact. But, since you feel outnumbered, I guess we might never know, for sure? Of course, what do I know, since the only eastern coyote I ever killed was in east Colorado. But, you could be right, he did seem a little smarter than western Colorado coyotes.
Actally, I think this conversation is amusing; why quit now? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 23, 2005 02:22 PM
Careful Leonard. The last time we got to talking about cow farmers, some guy named teabagger got his panties all in a twist, Rich had to clean the inside of his windshield, and the rest of you all got more of an education in new age verbage than what you were looking for. If they have 'em, I wanna know how deep tp plant 'em and how much water they need. Why hunt for them when I can home grow 'em out back.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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InjunJoe
unknown comic
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posted December 23, 2005 02:22 PM
What do you mean, amusing?
Let me understand this cause, I don't know. Amusing like a clown, You are amused? This thread makes you laugh... It's here to ****** amuse you?
I couldn't resist. I apologise.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 23, 2005 02:31 PM
Joe, did you throw all your empties out the window (as usual) on the drive back from three corners into ***** ?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rod Haydel
PAKMAN
Member # 762
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posted December 23, 2005 02:34 PM
I dont want to start a fight but this is just my opinion.
"Are college educated people more intelligent???? Are kids raised on the streets any smarter than those that have been pampered? I would say college educated people on average are better at certain things because they are educated. Kids raised in the street are street smarter. The two questions U posted have nothing to do with what I said, but figured I would answer them."
CBCC- If you believe the above then I would assume that these people are smart in their own surroundings based on where they were raised. Why would this not be the same on a coyote. Put them in a different environment and adjustments must be made to survive be it people or coyotes. Coyotes seem to overcome their surrondings very quick. It doesnt mean one is smarter than the other until you start defining specifics.
As far as Dalmations vs. Goldens overall Dalmations are pretty stupid based on my experience but this is apples to oranges they are two different species. I think I have a smart Lab since it will take hand signals I give to retrieve a duck. Does that mean it's smarter than a coyote? Define what's smart. Ever seen a coyote in your neck of the woods splattered on the side of the highway? HUMM! Now that is smart!
Posts: 4 | From: Bossier City LA | Registered: Dec 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted December 23, 2005 02:55 PM
Hmmmm, I'm still pondering the "Cottage Cheese" theory. Suppose the bigger coyotes, suckle earlier & longer ![[Wink]](wink.gif) . Than the [wee] ones
more milk please-dogs ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 23, 2005 03:00 PM
Geeezzzz...I am staying out of this one!!!!!
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 23, 2005 03:26 PM
So Leonard, let me get this straight. You completely refute any form of DNA science because you can find a study on bogus stem cell research?
My son was 6 months old when I met my wife. After we got marrried, I adopted him. Between those two times, the state of Kansas was able to identify his biological father with 99.5% certainty and this may be flawed? He was specifically identified as THE father. Not just that his daddy was human, but that this one individual was his father. Yet, the same technology cannot be believed to identify that the sire of an individual could be of a different species than the dam. The offspring would carry both sets of genes, not just in the offspring's physical appearance (phenotype) but in its own genotypical make up as well.
I've seen studies that say that electrophoretic sampling does match some of the eastern coyotes with wolf lineage. Then again, I've seen another that produced negative results, so I don't know for a fact which is valid. With all due respect, your rejection of DNA technology reminds me of my dad's opinion of computers. He doesn't understand them, thus he wants nothing to do with them and considers the whole concept to be bogus but I understand them pretty well and can quantify the benefits they bring to my life. I guess I have to ask why you are so adamantly against the thought that coyotes could hybridize with wolves. What is your position on the proverbial coydog? Isn't X-breeding with one just as possible as with the other? Just curious.
For Byron - assuming that coyotes did cross up with wolves and you're theory that the offspring would have been dumbed down and, thus, more susceptible to hunting and eventual elimination - maybe we're looking at them from the wrong angle. Maybe rather than them being coywolves - dumbed down variants of their wolf ancestors, they're actually woyotes - souped up descendants of their coyote ancestors. That's why they're so damned tough to call. They're not "coyotes". They're "Woyotes"!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted December 23, 2005 03:42 PM
Rod,
No fighting here either, just a good discussion that nobody will really ever know the answer to. It’s not apples to oranges, there are 20 (give or take a few) some sub species of coyotes across this country. I could get hit by a car tomorrow (might make some of U happy) but that doesn’t make me stupid?????? Before I give in someone has to prove my dog theory wrong. By the way I do hate the Cowboys and I am a Steeler fan.
Here are some definitions to smart
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-03,GGLD:en&q=define%3A+smart
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
Posts: 46 | From: PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 23, 2005 03:59 PM
quote:
I guess I have to ask why you are so adamantly against the thought that coyotes could hybridize with wolves. What is your position on the proverbial coydog? Isn't X-breeding with one just as possible as with the other? Just curious.
Lance, your education is getting in the way of your understanding. (cheap shot)
But, seriously. I'm afraid that you have not grasped my point. It is not that I reject everything about DNA. In fact, I understand it quite well. But, I will not allow "junk science" to pull the wool over my eyes, as has happened so many times, in the past. You know very well what I'm talking about.
Comparing the father's DNA, and matching it to his son is childs play. That's just connecting the dots, or lining up a bar code over an identical tranparency. Yeah, they are the same.
Now, you tell me what that has to do with comparing two completely different animals? That bar code will not line up, unless you start with a fifth of Jack Daniels, squint your eyes just right, cross your fingers and wish upon a star.
I submit that you could take a DNA sample from Lassie and an eastern coyote, and a western coyote; give the data to ten different lab techs and they couldn't agree, as to who's on first, to use a baseball analogy.
I will agree that it is very possible to convict a rapist based on physical evidence, (that's called a match), but that does not mean that I will give you a free pass when it comes to proving lineage and linkage of animals from the same "family" such as "canine", by reading what amounts to "tea leaves". Be careful of what you swallow whole, just because some PhD published a "study".
Here's another fraud we are learning about today. Just because it is not a direct link to DNA does not mean that it can't be used to show the duplicity rampant in the scientific community!
Updated: 09:25 AM EST
Origins of 'Cloned' Dog Now in Question
Is Snuppy a Scientific Breakthrough or a Fake?
By BURT HERMAN, AP
AP
The origins of Snuppy, an Afghan hound that researcher Hwang Woo-suk claimed to clone, are now in question.
SEOUL, South Korea (Dec. 23) - While South Korea's most famous scientist was resigning Friday in disgrace after his university said he faked stem cell research, one of his greatest purported breakthroughs was romping in the snow.
Snuppy, an Afghan hound that researcher Hwang Woo-suk said he cloned, was shown in photographs by South Korean media being led by a handler on a leash through the grounds of Seoul National University's animal hospital, where the dog is now kept.
Hwang unveiled Snuppy -- named for Seoul National University puppy -- in August, claiming to have created the world's first cloned dog. But like his other breakthroughs in stem-cell science, that assertion is now being questioned.
A university panel that had been investigating a May paper in the journal Science on Hwang's stem-cell research said Friday that he had fabricated those results and it was now investigating the claims of the cloned dog as well.
Blood samples related to Snuppy have been sent for DNA testing, the panel said Friday.
Although other animals have been cloned successfully before, applying the technique to a dog had been seen as significant because of the difficulties in working with canine eggs.
Hwang had said his workers used DNA of skin cells taken from the ear of a 3-year-old male Afghan hound to replace the nucleus of unfertilized eggs. Nearly 1,100 embryos were created and transferred to 123 surrogates, but only three pregnancies resulted, Hwang claimed in a paper published in the journal Nature.
Of those, there was one miscarried fetus and two puppies delivered by Caesarean section after 60 days. One died of pneumonia 22 days after birth -- leaving Snuppy as the sole survivor.
Hwang posed smiling with the dog in his arms when announcing his alleged achievement in August. The dog garnered worldwide fame, with U.S.-based Time magazine later naming it the "most amazing invention" of 2005.
American scientist Gerald Schatten, who collaborated on the project, at the time called Snuppy "a frisky, healthy, normal, rambunctious puppy."
Now some are wondering if Snuppy, now eight months old, was just that.
The journal Nature said this week it is reviewing the paper in light of questions raised about Hwang's other research.
A top international stem-cell researcher also questioned Friday if the dog had really been cloned.
"I think a lot of the community were very impressed with the cloning of a dog -- and it was a delightful dog _ but I actually don't think it is a cloned dog now," said Professor Alan Trounson of Australia's Monash University.
12/23/2005 06:44:28
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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