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Author
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Topic: Number of sounds on stand?
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 03, 2006 06:56 PM
KeeKee and I call just about the same way all around, set up, time on stand, the calls we use, the sounds, duration etc. Kinda weird since we live 2000 miles apart.
I read some of JH's posts in the Decoy thread on the darkside. After shoveling through the pompous and condescending Zen BS I was kinda surprised that I agreed with just about everything he had to say about time on stand and call selections and for basically the same reasons. Strange.
Vic said in an earlier post that any coyote that responds after the 10 or 15 minute mark just happened to travel within hearing range at that particular time.
I repectfully disagree. I know of a number of different areas that contain coyotes 24/7 and I absolutely know that if I blow a call a coyote will hear me. Sometimes they come in with little begging, sometimes I have to drag them in by the ears, sometimes they just refuse. The coyote in the video that Mattie ran back and forth with on the heavily covered hillside took 27 minutes to come into view on top of the hill. It took another 10 minutes for it to sneak down to the bottom of the hill. Kitchen sink stand, I used a dozen different sounds. The den was two ridges over and there were always two or three coyotes at the den.
Tyler and I have video of a coyote crawling in to the stand on it's belly to check out all of the different sounds it had been hearing for 45 minutes.
Two years ago KeeKee and Tyler video'ed a coyote crawling in to check them out as well. I don't remember how long or how many sounds they used. Brent, do you ?
On a club hunt a couple of years ago Robb was calling from a ladder in thick creosote, Tyler and I were strung out downwind from him on our ladders. A coyote approached Robb and sat down about 75 yards from him just out of his view. Robb was going through his repertoir of intermediate and short range sounds and the coyote just sat and listened. After a few minutes I made a little sound that the coyote liked and it jumped up and loped directly at me. Tyler stopped it and shot it at about ten yards from his position. Since I don't kill the coyotes except on competition hunts I see this kind of thing often. I know without any doubt that coyotes will ignore certain sounds at certain times and be drawn to other sounds. If I am certain that a coyote can hear me I am willing to invest 30 or 45 minutes trying to offer something that appeals to that coyote at that particular time. Since coyotes will respond to calls for any of at least seven different reasons, it makes sense to me to try to offer as many sounds as it takes to cover all seven. We have 200 tapes full of coyotes that didn't particularly want to be there, but just had to sneak in and investigate the commotion.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 03, 2006 08:09 PM
Rich; if a guy of your caliber disagrees with me, I ain't doin' to bad:)
Maybe I should have qualified that statement,although I couldn't find it in this thread,so Im not sure of the context, but that is my general belief. In my neck of the woods,I of course call areas I know traditionally hold coyotes,but that doesn't mean they will be there 24/7,at least not at the particular time I am, thats why it's called hunting. Im hunting them, and trust I can put myself in the general area they are hunting,or hope to. I don't call during denning season, which of course gives you an ace in the hole when you know of particular denning sites, so you have leg up knowing there is a coyote within ear shot.
Ive sat with guys who swore by that method at many a stand for 30 minutes or more,but like Ive said, for me, it's diminishing returns.Past that 15 minute mark, it doesn't turn enough coyotes to make me change my method. I suppose it's reasonable to presume a guy could sit for three hours in the same spot,and eventually call a coyote, but maybe not either. To my mind, after 15 minutes, thats what it is, maybe.
For my style of hunting,which so far, seems to be paying off as good as anyone elses style I know of, at least as far as number of coyotes called and shot in an average day,or year,15 minutes is plenty for me.
I can't imagine sitting for nearly an hour waiting for a coyote to show, knowing I could have made another stand in that time,counting drive time. There's only so many minutes in a good morning and evening of calling time,and I just try to squeeze the best possible minutes out of it I can?
Maybe If I was filming,I'd have a different outlook, for that "one" coyote I knew,hoped,wished was there, would maybe get caught on tape,and I'd be a happy camper.
Im a simpleton,nothing fancy or religious or mystic, I don't believe in that. I believe in scouting,looking at the ground,knowing coyotes are,or better worded, should be around,sneak a short ways from my truck,call for 15 minutes,kill a coyote, or two,then drive to next stand. I try to repeat that scenario five to six times in the morning,and three to four times in the evening for a days hunt. If I can put four or five coyotes in the back of the truck at the end of the day,Im a damned happy camper.
Now.....if I had one of those Higgins howlers, I might be inclined to walk on the mystical side,and throw some howls at them, to help me "grow" in my calling journey:) I still have a knife with your name on it, if your interested?
Mmmmmmmmmmm....nomi-wacky-yotieeee, is that to many sylables for a mantra????????
Posts: 1633 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 03, 2006 08:51 PM
Vic, I absolutely do agree that your technique is best suited for you in your area. You simply can't argue with success. I'm simply sharing my beliefs concerning time on stand and and number of calls on stand that I know work in this area. I've hunted in 22 states with quite a few different callers and they have all evolved a different technique that works for them in their areas.
I believe that relatively short stands are surely the way to go in areas where the coyotes respond to prey distress with enthusiasm. But in areas of heavy pressure they generally just do not run into the stand anymore. Staying on stand for as long as it takes just makes good sense. Whether it is 10 minute stands in good areas or 45 minute stands in pressured areas. (pressured doesn't necessarily mean hunted or shot at)
Good callers evolve and adapt their calling and techniques to that which works on their coyotes in their areas. Just as you have done. As popular as calling is becoming in SE Az. and with many new callers applying more and more pressure on the coyotes down there, you are going to be fondly remembering "the good ol' days" before long too.
I have returned two orders of horns in the last three weeks. When I finally accept four horns (I'm not picky, they simply have to be beautiful and perfect) one will have your name on it. I'll be bringing at least two to the campout in a couple of months. Unless you can pry yourself out of SEAz. and come up here and do some calling with me, you will have to wait for the trade. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 03, 2006 09:01 PM
Whether Higgins disagrees with AZ or not, I think he caught him in a "preference" mode. I also believe in the theory of diminishing returns. I really don't care if there is a coyote 500 yards away that is not interested in coming in until I hit him with just the right sound, 45 minutes past my attention span. Sure, if I know he's there, (as in, saw him) I'll dick around with him, but normally, I can do three stands in an hour, and skim the cream off the top, rather than play around with a smart coyote. As he (AZ) said; during prime time, I don't like to spend that much time in one spot. Middle of the day, different story.
There again, at the end of the day, it may even out, but it's all in how you like to approach the subject. I can do it both ways, but I "prefer" twelve minute stands, during prime time.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted August 03, 2006 10:46 PM
Rich if I remember right we ran three diffrent distress sounds, and some howls before we picked up the coyote comming in. Once we had him in site sneaking in, it was all coaxing after that.
Then once he was in gun range we used more coaxing sounds to put him in a place to shoot him.
But I would haft to review the footage to 100% sure.
I have alot of video of stands were it took several changes in calling to kill a coyote. And some of them took up to 45 min or more. I have one tape 60 min of nuthen but howling between me and a old male coyote. Only to have the shooter miss after I finally got him to show him self. And several more in the 45 min plus range.
Here in the east, if I got a coyote interested, Im going to do what ever I can or haft to do to get the shot on him. I may not call another coyote the rest of the day. But then again I may call several more?
Brent
[ August 03, 2006, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 04, 2006 06:53 AM
quote:
I really don't care if there is a coyote 500 yards away that is not interested in coming in until I hit him with just the right sound
Leonard, that is exactly the coyote that I am interested in. I will learn a great deal more from that coyote than I will from a happy, greedy youngster that charges in to the first sound.
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted August 04, 2006 07:09 AM
Rich H, Would you mind listing the sounds on that kitchen sink stand? I don't need any special order.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 04, 2006 07:39 AM
I must have A.D.D.
I'm not sure I could set anywhere for 45 minutes. If I have a coyote hung up at 500, I start crawling until I either get in range or he leaves.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 04, 2006 08:38 AM
I would not sit on a stand for 45 minutes... not knowing IF there was a coyote (unseen) 500 yards away.
What I would do if I happened to be aware of a coyote that was hung up, at 500 yards is open to speculation? I may flip him off, and I may work him, depends.
My position is: I will not call a stand for 45 minutes, without a good reason, therefore; working a problem coyote that is waiting for just the right sound is (most likely) not going to happen?
I believe what we are talking about is length of stand before we quit it as a dry hole? If I have reason to believe there is a coyote in the neighborhood, even 510 yards away, I may extend the stand and see what develops...I know a few tricks, myself.
But, to stay on a stand for 45 minutes, "precisely" for the benefit of a well educated, mature coyote, (and, theoretical, don't forget) this is not worthwhile, for me and my methods. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm quite happy killing dumb coyotes.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 04, 2006 08:58 AM
The only way I would make use of a 45 minute stand(with a coyote hung up at 500 yards),is as Cal mentioned earlier use the remote on the foxpro to my advantage and continue to call using the remote and putting the sneek on him. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I look at it like this,I can stay there and mess with that one coyote for 45 minutes and maybe get a good shot at him,or move on and make two or three more stands in that time, and in some areas I call that could mean 2 or three more coyotes dead.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
[ August 04, 2006, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 04, 2006 10:02 AM
Yes, you make my point for me, Chad.
Thanks, LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31492 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted August 04, 2006 01:33 PM
Sink stand..........
Lost puppy Howls
Lonehowls
Bird Distress #1
Jack Rabbit Distress
Cottontail distress
Fawn death cries
Bird Distress #2
Puppy wines and cries
Puppy distress
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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canine
Knows what it's all about
Member # 687
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posted August 04, 2006 02:25 PM
Hey Brent, you forgot the Monkey doin the chicken call!! LOL..
JD
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Hunting The East "back to Basic's" Part 1
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted August 04, 2006 04:20 PM
And for those who skin coyotes, those young and dumb ones, prime up faster, and sell for more money than the old coyotes!
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted August 04, 2006 04:54 PM
Brent and Rich
Could you give me a idea on what the time allocation would be with each sound? Nine to twelve sounds in a forty five minute time frame would be maybe three to five minutes for each sound? Do you take breaks between the howls and the distress and do you take breaks between the other distress, or do you just blend them together?
Dennis
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 04, 2006 06:48 PM
Sink stand..........
Lost puppy Howls
Lonehowls
Bird Distress #1
Jack Rabbit Distress
Cottontail distress
Fawn death cries
Bird Distress #2
Puppy wines and cries
Puppy distress
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I would have to think that Lost puppy howls, puppy whines and cries, and puppy distress are all the same thing actually. Puppy in distress covers all of those, and therefore is actually only One calling sound. So what do we have now.
1. Lone howl to tell coyote that a stranger is in the territory.
2. Puppy distress which can trigger maternal protection reaction, easy meal syndrome or both.
3. Jackrabbit
4. cottontail
5. fawn distress
6. bird distress
I would personally use#1 and #2 most of the time for coyotes. I almost never use #5 but that is just me. I would save #3,#4 and #6 for a different stand.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 04, 2006 07:40 PM
Rich, howls are not distress and whines and cries are different than ki-yis. Three different sounds.
Dennis, I don't set up every stand the same and I don't call on every stand the same. I play every stand by ear. Besides the sounds Brent listed I also use calf bawls. Cdog sat a stand with me in Co. and saw how effective they can be on pressured coyotes.
Dennis, I switch up and back with all of these sounds on long, high confidence stands. Because I'm confident that a coyote can hear me I lean heavily on the despair component of the distress sounds and stick with the least aggressive and most nonthreatening vocalizations. If you have seen our video you know what sounds we use and how we use them to get coyotes in close and keep them there. I use the same sounds and use them the same way on the coyotes that I cannot see but am convinced can hear me.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 04, 2006 08:10 PM
Hmmmmmm, a coyote pup that is lost, and it howls because it feels lost, is that not a type of distress? A coyote pup that is in pain, and it howls, whines, ki-yi's or hoots, it is still the sounds of something in distress ain't it? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Edit: I was messing with Rich Higgins a little bit. On a more serious note, all of the coyote puppy sounds are coming from same animal. (a coyote pup). The yowls, howls, yips, ki-yi's and whines of a coyote pup would be natural in the coyote residence. Coyotes are familiar with coyote pups and the sounds they emit. Using several of the coyote pup sounds on one stand seems less likely to confuse an adult coyote, than throwing out the distress sounds of several different types of animals or birds. I have a strong belief that coyotes can learn to shy away from sounds that it has approached a time or two and got shot at. I hope that I am making sense here.
[ August 05, 2006, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 04, 2006 08:16 PM
Rich, so do you make 45+ minute stands the norm?, or only if they are what you termed "high confidence",or if you have sighted a coyote?
Like Cal mentioned, if I know a coyote is there,whatever the distance, I'll try to put a sneak on if I can get away with it, or change a sound. I guess what I was getting at, is my normal stand, where no coyote shows,or can be seen sneaking a loop, 15 minutes,and I call it good.
Im somewhat suspect that many of the coyotes called in at 30 or 45 minutes or an hour,were nowhere around during what I call a normal stand length? We get into the "if" factor I believe. "If", the wind is swirling,"if", volumne is increased at intervals,"if", cows are off a half mile kicking up rodents etc...."IF", my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle, sorry, thats my favorite line when I hear the "if" word one to many times:)
I guess I need to tag along with you this winter one weekend,keep my mouth shut,and see how the other half does it. I'll need to take some no-doz,and find a stool with a backrest, so I don't tip over at the 30 minute mark though:)
Do e-mail me your address would you, I have something I want to shoot up your way. You being envolved with the martial arts, I have just the blade I want to give you.
Posts: 1633 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 04, 2006 08:40 PM
AZ,
You crack me up.LOL
Well said.. Good Hunting Chad
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 04, 2006 09:29 PM
They must just be dumber down here Tim,not necessarily young:) Last winter, I killed porportionately more older coyotes,than I did YOY?
Maybe a bad year for pup rearing,not sure, but I sure killed a lot of old,worn to the nub toothed older dogs,than the bat earred bouncing young.
Sure hoping for a good year this winter, Im getting antsy now,and still 60 days or so to go! Putting together a new little calling rifle,a .17 ackley hornet, got rid of my old one and just picked up another a couple months ago.
Thinking about another .19 caliber to add to the group too,either going to be a .19 Badger or .19-.223.
Posts: 1633 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted August 05, 2006 05:21 AM
Not all my stands run 45 min or more, just in cases were I know there are coyotes there. JD has see this work several times. And we have shot alot of video of it from time to time. This is not an adverage time on every stand.
JD.....Some sounds you just keep to yourself.....lol
Greenside,
It really depends on the stand. I go strait off gut feeling on sounds and how long I run them and what sound. I almost always put some breaks in there between sounds, sometime short breaks sometime long breaks and not every stand will get all the sounds or as many...and not all of them will run 45 min some may even run longer....That was just an example, I put out there. I call alot, give lots of sound (sometimes) it just depends on the stand and area I am calling.
I dont want that coyote to get side tracked on something else. I want to try and keep him on a string to me. And also not give him as much time to think about what he is doing. If I am running a distress sound and the coyote is comming hard, I stay on him untill he changes something, when he does then I change to what I think will put him back on the fast track to the gun. If he dont change I dont change, but this is only when I can see the coyote. If I cant see them and I know they are there, then the get the sink stand.
Rich C,
I guess you could put all those sounds togeather. But I dont. I will run the lost puppy howls, then a adult answer. I then may run puppy wines and wimpers. Then a couple more puppy howls, then more wimpers and cries, with alot of feeling and volume changes, then a adult howl and strait to sceaming puppy distress, not adult distress, puppy distress. All I done was break down the sounds to work best for me, it adds to the stand and plays out a storie line so to speak.
You also put the bird distress togeather. I have 4-5 bird sounds I can run on hand calls, there all diffrent, not the same sounds. Not all birds give the same distress cries. Diffrent changes in the sounds may trigger what it takes to kick the coyote in to moving. Pitchs, volume, fast , slow, it all changes the sound up and thats what I am trying to do to get the coyote to change what it is thinking. Or tigger something in his brain to jump start him to me.
I just just see those coyotes out there...............thinking what the sam hell is going on over there??????????
Me and JD filmed Rich H last winter, he was working an area we new had coyotes. As soon as he started calling we picked up coyotes comming in. 5 of them if I remember right maybe more? I would haft to look at the video for a count. Me and JD were filming from a high point. Rich could not see the coyotes. We got to film there changes as they came to the calls. At one point they all split up and circled the caller. Then they would stop, set down and scan the area.
Ever time he changes calls, sounds or the way the sound was ran they go up and moved forward, or went to meet up with other coyotes, anyway something they were doing changed. I had many chances to shoot these coyotes, but we were filming for this reason just to se what there changes would be. We learned alot from that film. You can see the change in them as he changed sounds or the way he called.
Every sound got a diffrent reaction from the coyotes. At one point they got up and left, sound change brought them back for another look.
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted August 05, 2006 06:57 AM
Would it be safe to say that blanket statements like "12 minute stands" and "2 sounds" are more prominant in the west? Not arguing the reason... not stupid coyotes, lazy hunters or bookoo coyotes on either end. Just seems to me much of the western crowd can't grasp staying on stand or using multiple sounds- but most succesful callers in my area consider it commonplace.
If I went back to 12 minutes and 2 sounds for every stand I made in Indiana last year I would've killed 75% fewer coyotes. Actually, if I do kill a coyote that quick with such little investment I try to convince myself it was superior stand selection which causes me to sit there another 30 minutes. Usually it boils down to the fact anybody with a PC2 and a rifle could've called & killed that particular coyote at that time in that place. Not enough of those coyotes to go around for me... I adapt to stay consistant.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 05, 2006 06:57 AM
"I guess you could put all those sounds togeather. But I dont. I will run the lost puppy howls, then a adult answer. I then may run puppy wines and wimpers. Then a couple more puppy howls, then more wimpers and cries, with alot of feeling and volume changes, then a adult howl and strait to sceaming puppy distress, not adult distress, puppy distress. All I done was break down the sounds to work best for me, it adds to the stand and plays out a storie line so to speak."
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There ya go Kee. That is a natural sound, or rather a more natural combination of sounds. I agree with you on that scenario.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted August 05, 2006 07:31 AM
Im somewhat suspect that many of the coyotes called in at 30 or 45 minutes or an hour,were nowhere around during what I call a normal stand length?
I wouldn't disagree on that point. In the past I've spotted coyotes in open country ,heading for home. They can cover alot of ground in 5 to 10 minutes. The theory might be that if you spend enough time on a stand. sooner or later one will walk into the sound cone. I'm sure it happens. The problem with that theory is that the reverse alway occurs, The longer you sit on a stand the farther the coyote can get from your location.
A few years ago we were west river and walked into a section and as soon as we set up we spotted a pair of coyote moving away. They were about 2\3 mile away and it was apparent that they hadn't spotted us. We tried several times to call and howl them but only could get them to stop and glance in our direction. It didn't take them long to disappear in a clump of tres, that was maybe two miles away.
So we just walked back to the truck and drove a half mile or so past the last visual and went in and setup. Less than five minutes later we had both of those coyote dead. Forty five minutes on a stand or move two miles?
Dennis
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