|
Author
|
Topic: 204 on coyotes
|
brett
PAKMAN
Member # 968
|
posted September 28, 2006 09:48 PM
yeah i reload i have heard good things about the 35 gr bergers and think i will try some. what powder are you using i was going to start with some H335 or W748. any load data would be appreciated
thanks
Posts: 4 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted September 28, 2006 11:41 PM
BLC2 seems to be working for some. Thats what I am trying....
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted September 29, 2006 05:50 AM
Sparky, the 35 Berger really does start to fall off pretty quick as range increases. It's not the answer if 300 yards and beyond are a regular part of the equation. For most all callers though, performance at that distance really doesn't matter. At the medium ranges like 300 - 400 yards, the light little plastic tipped pills like the 32 Vmax have the flattest trajectory, and still don't give up very much to the wind compared to the 39's and 40's. They lack energy by comparison though, and as has been discussed many times already, I just don't think the construction of the 32's is right for coyotes. The Hornady 45's are interesting to me, and I will definitely shoot some coyotes with them this winter when my big .20 is finally done. And I think they'll do fine - I expect performance somewhat similar to the old Sierra .224 1365. They are kind of an odd duck in the .20 world though. BC on them is not all that good, which combined with their heavy for caliber weight will give them a relatively rainbow like trajectory out of the smaller .204 case. But, and this is a pretty important "but" when we are talking real world called coyotes -- that trajectory won't mean diddly on the vast majority of called coyotes which are shot at less than 200 yds, most well under 100 yds. Still though, to me, that bullet just seems kind of weird for the .204. I can't get past the notion of lighter bullets, moving much faster, shooting much flatter, with less disturbance to the sight picture. To me, that's what the .204 is really all about. But, truthfully, that 45 gr. bullet really should make the .204 a more versatile round for those who can get past what I see as the strangeness of it. What I would REALLY like to see, is a plastic tip (high BC), about 38 gr. (flat trajectory), with a tougher jacket and a solid base (penetration on coyotes). I think that would give a guy the best all around compromise in bullet construction for killing coyotes with a .204.
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted September 29, 2006 06:16 AM
Good post Dave. This sounds familiar? I was reading it and went back and read an email you sent me on this question. Its not word for word, but its close.
Just thought that was cool. A man of his convictions that closesly is hard to find sometimes....
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted September 29, 2006 09:28 AM
I've only shot a couple coyotes at the 300 yard range with the 35 grain bergers,they were frontal shots and they were bang/flops with no fur damage.But I have not had enough long range experience on coyotes with the 35's to be an authority on them.But what DAA says makes sense to me.I too want to try the 45's for coyotes,I thought the same thing as Dave about them being like the 1365's.Time will tell I guess.If I were shooting long range alot,the 40 vmax might be the answer but i don't like the idea of surface splashes.I guess you get pro's and con's with any bullet you use.For now I will probably stick with the 35 grain bergers,at least for fur.Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 29, 2006 10:57 AM
I don't own one, but if I did, I would think the advice from these Utah boys (Dave and Chad) to be well worth considering.
Only thing is, I have never thought of Sierra's #1365 as a "fur" bullet? But, I do believe in a heavy for caliber bullet, for coyotes. I think they are more predictable, terminally.
The question is; what is the correct shape and weight, and point style for a heavy for caliber hunting bullet? You can do all the research, and it might take years, but if you build on a foundation such as what is offered by these knowledgable guys, you are headed in the right direction.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
|
posted September 29, 2006 10:17 PM
Well said Dave....However, I could type out a couple scenario's why a caliber/bullet combination for Coyotes needs to be able to strike at the 300 yard mark without worrying about bullet drop from a rainbow trajectory,for those occasional longer shots.
That brings up another thought.If the 32's are a bit iffy,what about the .17 calibers using even lighter bullets,what's the story on that?I would suspect,that careful bullet placement would be essential with the .17's?What's your take on that.Thanks,Sparky
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted September 30, 2006 05:41 AM
Sparky, its bullet composition. Those VMaxs are so damned explosive and moving so fast they blow up easy. The Berger has a heavier, not by much, jacket that allows it to penetrate before blowing up.
Thats the difference between a 25gr Berger 17cal and a 32gr VMax 20cal. And I imagine why the 35gr Bergers are working good on coyotes.
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted September 30, 2006 07:27 AM
"However, I could type out a couple scenario's why a caliber/bullet combination for Coyotes needs to be able to strike at the 300 yard mark without worrying about bullet drop from a rainbow trajectory,for those occasional longer shots."
Sparky, believe me, I could not agree more! I was speaking in general, "most of the time" terms. My own most used and favorite coyote rifle is "point and shoot" to beyond 300 yards. The "big .20" I mentioned earlier that I'm having built, is going to be point-and-shoot all the way out to 350 yards, and should be able to hold on fur at 400. So, you bet, I absolutely see the value in flat trajectory to 300 and beyond in a calling rifle. It's just that the longer range performance really doesn't matter for most guys, including me, most of the time. But I'll take the insurance if I can get it!
Andy nailed it on the bullet construction. That's the whole issue with those 32 Vmax and similar bullets. It's a combination of construction and velocity, actually, but for the class of cartridges we are talking about in this thread the velocity will be fairly high so it comes down to construction.
The rifle I used all of last season is a large capacity .17 caliber (.17 Predator) that launches 30 gr. bullets at over 4000 fps. The bullets I'm using Kindler Gold's, which are boat tails on J4 jackets, very similar in construction to the Berger Match bullets. The BC on them is higher than the .20 caliber 32 Vmax, so my trajectory and wind drift are actually flatter than the .204 Ruger, and starting not too far from the muzzle the energy is higher for my .17 too, with the energy gap just getting wider (in favor of my .17) as range increases.
So, as the two different bullets leave the muzzle, one the .20 cal. 32 Vmax and the other the .17 cal. 30 Gold, you have two bullets that weigh almost the same, at almost the same velocity. It might appear on the surface that they should give similar performance. But nothing could be further from the truth. I've not had a single surface splash with the 30 Gold yet. They can and have broken near side shoulders and exited the far side with not too big a hole. My limited experience with the 32 Vmax has been completely different. Huge surface splash, no ability to penetrate shoulder, never an exit or even what I would consider good penetration. The difference is all in the construction of the two bullets.
Even on paper, looking at exterior ballistics, the difference between the two bullets is pretty significant, since the 30 Gold has such a BC advantage over the stubby 32 Vmax. That's a function of the difference in bullet shape, favoring the more heavy-for-caliber 30 gr. .17 bullet.
The .20 cal. 35 Berger is constructed pretty much like the 30 Gold's I'm using. They have a more open point and are not nearly as heavy-for-caliber, so they lag behind the .17 even further than the 32 Vmax in terms of trajectory, wind deflection and energy retention. BUT! They perform a whole heckuva lot better than the 32 Vmax when they strike coyote flesh!
I know there are plenty of guys who will violently disagree with me, but for my money, the 32 Vmax is just a piss poor coyote bullet, all the way around.
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted September 30, 2006 10:59 AM
Very well said Dave.I couldn't agree more.I have not shot the Vmax on coyotes myself but have friends that have.Most have said they are piss poor bullets for coyotes.I'm running the 35's at 3850-3900 fps. 1 inch high at 100 yrds, dead on 200 yrds,5 inches low at 300 yrds and about 18 inches low at 400 yrds.And it just so happens that each tick mark on my Ballistic Plex recticle(Burris) is where I need it to be(or damn close).So I would feel fairly comfortable taking a shot at those ranges if needs be.But most of my shots have been 0-250 yrds,and at these ranges it flat whacks coyotes.The real long range shots on coyotes for the most part aren't much of an issue for me.But I wouldn't even hesitate to take a 300 yard shot at a coyote with the 35 grain bergers ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .FWIW
brett,
In answer to your question I use 28.0 grains of H4895 powder with the 35 grain bergers they are running between 3850-3900 fps.Good Hunting Chad
[ September 30, 2006, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
|
posted October 01, 2006 06:38 AM
Each rifle can have it's own personallity as to what works well and what doesn't. Rate of twist, depth of rifling, type of rifling etc.all factor into how a bullet will perform. it doesn't hurt to try different bullets in different rifles.
FWIW I have shot several coyotes with the 32 grain v-max out of my 204 and the results have been quite acceptable.
--------------------
for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
|
posted October 01, 2006 09:06 PM
Right on Dave,we're on the same page....You've got me thinking about a .20-250 for my next build.
My whole intent was to expose how difficult it is to judge the distance of a Coyote that's out there a ways from any number of "for instances".Often,closer then they appear,overshooting is the result. There's no time to count how many football fields away it is,or pull out that lazer and range 'em,no sir,just enough time to point and shoot.Often,I'll make an attempt to quickly estimate the range of a particular feature out in the field,be it a boulder or what ever, and then range it with lazer.I'm terrible at it.
I've got some good examples from the last 48 hours of a epic solo calling trip I just returned from this weekend.
In a day and a half (all day stands)I called in 18 Coyotes(that I know of)and killed 16.Five of them,I'd wish I had a shotgun.Others were dropped at 343,253,265,and 185 yards,the rest of 'em we're under 100.And oh ya,one at 416 yards....I knew that one looked aways out there, maybe a tad over 300 I thought,(I'm 1"low at 300)I aimed top of shoulder and watched as she stood up on her hind legs while falling backwards into the sagebrush.Both front paws where almost completely shearded off by the bullet......
Don't know many folks that shoot their hunting rifles at paper at 300 yards.Most just do the 100 yard thing and call it good.Some may find after trying it, they'll need some practice.A big confidence boost will come from the effort too.Check out Daves website on load development,good stuff. Cheers,Sparky
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted October 01, 2006 10:53 PM
Yeah, we're all on the same page, flat trajectory. Whatever your flavor, I like from 22, up.
Nice kill Spark. Where did you say you were?
Your story reminds me of the time I was shooting at a coyote moving through some tight cover, (at a distance) flinging lead all over the place, until I didn't see him; but I didn't see him leave, either. Followed the blood smear, saw him under some brush and when flushed, he slithered away like an inch worm, with all four legs busted.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
|
posted October 02, 2006 07:47 PM
The land of fruit and nuts.
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted October 02, 2006 07:57 PM
Its not too bad estimating long ranges around here. Fences are normally either 440 or 880 yards apart here. Pretty easy to tell the difference in those two. Makes it much easier for me to guesstimate how far a shot is, as Im normally in a fencerow calling. Flat shooting rifles make it even easier once the coyote gets 100 yards or so closer than the other fencerow. No elevation adjustment needed.
Telephone and powerline poles are big helps too. They arent always the same distance, but if you are going to be hunting near some, checking the distance between two can be good.
FWIW
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted October 02, 2006 08:10 PM
Not much in the way of fences or telephone poles where I hunt Andy ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . Especially not the telephone poles. Some of my favorite places, you'd have to drive a couple hours to get to the nearest one.
My range estimating skills sound about like Sparky's. I'm amazed at how badly I guess sometimes! My personal rule, with a flat shooting rifle, is never hold over unless I'm absolutely positive the coyote is a LONG ways off. And even at that, I usually end up shooting over them when I do hold over (my range estimating skills at work...). So I really try not to ever hold over .
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted October 02, 2006 08:18 PM
I hear ya Dave. Just relating what I see here. Its a whole nuther world where I do most of my hunting to where you hunt. No doubt. And, I do hunt the woods some just south of me that would be similar to the eastern boys, but thats totally different as well.
Gotta hunt what you got to hunt in your area. No way around it.
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted October 02, 2006 08:23 PM
I also shoot the 30 gr. golds in my 17 cals and like DAA says they get the job done. I have taken coyotes with them out to a little past 500 yds. When i decide to go with a certain bullet i test them out to 600 yards to see how they group. I have shot some that at a 100 yds they shoot a nice half inch group, but when i go to say 500 yards they are all over the target. Some of my choices for bullets are the 30 gr berger L.T.B. and 30 gr gold in 17 cal. For the .224 cal i use Sierra 52 gr. match and the 52 gr. hornady A-max. In 6mm i tried the 55 gr ballistic tips and was getting splashes and i stoped useing the 6mm. A friend uses 60 gr h.p. and has been have good results with them.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
