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Author
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Topic: Al Morris on the Outdoor Channel
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted October 13, 2008 09:14 PM
quote:
Did you know Les and Q did represent the hunters or do you read or watch TV.
Steve: I don't get Les's show here on cable so i've never seen it. I have met Les in person and i believe he does a great job of representing the sport..
The answer to the last part of youre question is no! i don't watch much T.V let alone hunting shows.
My time is spent working or hunting in the off season and skinning at nite..
quote:
At least your killing coyotes now and not losing sleep over that.
No Steve i have'nt started yet, but willbe starting very soon..Later... T/A
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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stevecriner
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posted October 13, 2008 09:39 PM
Man you handled that to civil for me to even say anything. Props, Unknown
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 13, 2008 11:41 PM
To answer your own question Scott, how do you think that Al’s comments would have been received had he said them at an NTA convention? Or wrote them in the T&PC? Coyotes are not blue at the end of September they are nearly black and unless you sell it in a large lot you probably wouldn’t get a dime for it. That is not a slam that is just a matter of fact.
quote:
There is a lot of long time recreational callers at this site who are not involved in "legitimate" ADC work. They are concerned enough about the utilization of this resource that they wait to hunt coyotes until the fur is prime which is usually the last week in Oct. or first week in November. Nothing irks them more than to see someone out harvesting unprime coyotes to get the jump on the naive coyotes only to harvest a coyote that is not even saleable. I respect and support that viewpoint. Some try to justify their early pup hunting by claiming ADC work with no sheep or fall calving cows for miles in any direction.
That pretty much describes me. LOL Here is a link to some of my ideas on the subject.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52863506&an=0&page=0#52863506
I am extremely pleased that Al promoted skinning and selling the coyote. We need to see more of that on TV!!
It usually goes with out saying what people do with deer and game birds but people are inquisitive about what we do with coyotes. It usually doesn’t sit well with people when you say “I just take a few hero pictures to show my buddies on the Internet and then throw them in the ditch. Hey the maggots need to eat too!!! Ha ha ha ha” The fact is that there is a LOT of people that do just that.
From what I have seen, most people say that they need to shoot coyotes in the summer to save livestock, and fawns and baby chicks and what ever else. “Its called ADC work don’t ya know????” LOL
I am not an ADC man at all and never promote my self to be one. I never tell anyone that I think I am doing the world a favor by killing coyotes. What I shoot a season probably has a zero percent impact on the over all “game animal” population. There are plenty of guys out there that shoot a half a dozen coyotes a year and think they are the single handily saving Mother Nature from it’s self.
When I am posed with the question “What do you do with the coyotes?” I start by saying that coyotes are not edible so the only usable part on the animals are the fur and sometimes the skulls and glands. This is why I only hunt them during the prime fur months. I go on to say that coyotes are just like any other animal and need to be managed. Fur is a renewable and natural resource so I do my best to utilize what I can.
The problem as I see it is that not everyone is on the same page. Some people think that the only good coyote is a dead (or dieing) coyote. Others respect the denning season but hunt from July through March. Others yet like myself only hunt the prime fur months. Each group thinks that there way is the right way or rather would be plumb tickled if everyone thought the way they did.
Where SOME recreational coyote hunters piss off the fur takers is when they are out killing coyotes year round and wasting fur that the fur hunters and trappers would otherwise use. I know that the argument can be made that there is enough to go around or the coyotes are not worth anything in “my” area but trust me that this is a growing concern.
Where SOME recreational callers piss off the ADC men is when they go around bashing ADC programs and saying “Why are you paying these guys to do something that we do for free” LOL that is a classic. And to a lesser degree they can keep the coyotes tuned up year around which can sometimes make more troubles for ADC guys.
Where SOME recreational callers piss off Trapping and fur hunting organizations is by promoting them selves as ADC men and promoting or otherwise bragging about throwing coyotes and other furbearring animals in the ditch. In some peoples minds they think that they should get an award for just shooting the damn things and they deserve to lay and rot.
For as long as there have been Trapping and fur harvesting organizations ADC men and fur trappers and hunters have been working shoulder to shoulder in unity towards one set of goals. That is to preserve the heritage of the fur harvesting industry, promote the use of wild fur, educate the public on sound wildlife management and of course combat any legislation that threatens fur hunters or trappers.
There has been a lot of talk about forming a National predator hunting organization. I would be interested in seeing their mission statement. The sad part is that there are a couple National organizations that are fighting tooth and nail to protect predator hunters Rights and Privileges. The FTA and NTA have been doing it for quite a while now.
Why haven’t more predator hunters turned to those organizations? Is it because some recreational callers dislike ADC programs and fur takers because they think they kill more than there share? Do they think if fur takers and ADC programs were eliminated they will have better hunting opportunities? Do they think they can replace fur takers and ADC professionals? Would there agenda promote the idea that because they are a big enough organization they can replace us?
What if their agenda promoted year around hunting and that they could replace ADC? I have been bashed for supposedly killing too many, for being greedy. I know it sounds crazy but there are a growing segment of hunters that have those exact same views. I know Scott and other ADC guys have been caused grief by recreational callers for some of the same reasons I have been bashed. They blame there lack of success on us and or think that had we not been so greedy they would enjoy better hunting opportunities.
From time to time there are some infighting between the ADC crowd and the trappers but because we work side by side they are usually resolved. My idea is that if we all are not working together on this we will be working against each other. Just some issues that will eventually need to be addressed.
How is that for getting off track Leonard? LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
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Leonard
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posted October 14, 2008 12:04 AM
Fine by me, Q.
I personally believe in a big tent. No Crusader here; shoot'em when and how you want. I honor the denning season as a tradition, but could care less if I happen to dust a few September coyotes, let them rot in a ditch, and my legal actions offend a prime fur hunter....
I'm not offended by all those hundreds of stretched hides, either.
Now, should somebody want to talk about aerial gunning on public land, (as in Nevada; funded by hunting license fees) that does tend to chap my ass.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Wiley E
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posted October 14, 2008 06:09 AM
Q: "I know Scott and other ADC guys have been caused grief by recreational callers for some of the same reasons I have been bashed. They blame there lack of success on us and or think that had we not been so greedy they would enjoy better hunting opportunities."
How ironic in light of what mange did huh?
I guess we didn't kill enough in those days did we? LOL!
"Why do you gotta fly so faaaaaar"
My response: "Get them shot before February and there won't be any coyotes left to worry about. You have three months of free rein."
~SH~
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2008 06:28 AM
Damn Q- you've either took a course on speed typing this summer or you spent some time on that one! LOL! Great post.
Scott, I'll not argue the concept that promoting fur-season recreational calling is better than the alternative. I think the theory is sound: but there are a couple major problems in expecting it to become a nationwide reality.
1) Callers in Indiana, and many other true Midwestern states, would have their success and land access GREATLY hampered by restricting "legitimate" calling to November & December. Therefor their success rates would plummet- and their longterm interest in the sport would fade rather quickly. Just the way it is. The heritage of hunting would suffer, as I believe it did with the bowhunter arguments among others.
2) Consider the situation most fur harvesters are in when they drop a coyote- either real or assumed they face some roadblocks with the handful of coyotes they’re going to kill in a season. If they shot it before mid-November it’s probably a little flat or even blue. If they shot it after December it’s likely to be rubbed or even thinning. Many guys are hunting low-grade fur zones in the first place so if they can skin, scrub, flesh and stretch a coyote… then maybe even slip a sewing job past the buyer... they’ll get $5-$12.
Even with the success in numbers that Cal & Leonard see they’re proclaiming “Ain’t no damn way” on the entrepreneurship in a soft fur market. Cal brings up a good point about fur buyers THIS season with the current economic situation and stock market fluctuations. The impact on the fur check could be very serious this winter unless you’re shipping to auction houses.
I’m not going to argue right versus wrong, or reach at percentages, but there are certainly a BUNCH of recreational callers out there that do not see the benefit of skinning their coyotes weather they were taken in September or December. I’ve had a few guys call me to brag about their first called coyote, then call back an hour later with sore hands and ask me if people SERIOUSLY skin those things. Those guys are unlikely to be fur hunters- any time of year.
Our fur seasons were clearly set for a reason: but I expect to see coyotes reclassified here soon as a varmint without seasons. Two weeks ago I went camping with a group of guys containing 4 or 5 of the top 10 coyote harvesters in this state- all of them plan to virtually STOP taking coyotes this year. With the live market gone, high fuel prices and a slipping fur value we’ll be lucky to see 25-50% of our annual coyote harvest numbers this year. Increased restrictions and Walt Disney style moral-highroads continue to cause problems for sportsmen in this state. I wouldn’t be surprised to see government intervention on Indiana coyotes in 10 years. Callers can’t keep up- especially during prime fur windows.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 14, 2008 06:38 AM
The solutuon for most of this debate is simply a stronger fur market. If coyotes were bringing a hundred dollar average, people would be skinning. As for the rest I have no alliegance to either side. If someone wants to put up coyotes for 15 bucks thats great. If they want to pile them in a sinkhole thats fine too. Recreational calling is a sport and its great fun. Can't fault anyone for wanting to do it. Here where I live, and I'll bet even where Wiley and Q are, only about 50% of the coyotes are really good enough to put up even when they are prime. So what about it Q, when you see a coyote coming to your call and you can tell in your rifle scope he's got a little rust around the fenders and isn't going to be worth putting up do you shoot him anyway? Is it any less fun when you do? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 14, 2008 07:30 AM
Hunting coyotes for me is not recreational I guess. It is too much work. If I put out the effort to kill one I want it to be worth my time. Even if I only average 15 dollars a coyote and I have a full half hour invested in putting it up $30 an hour aint bad wages for doing something I actually like to do.
I guess I envy the guys that have those heart pounding adrenalin surging experiences every time they kill something but those days are long gone for me. I enjoy the experience the freedom and the life style. I am also proud of putting up my fur and supporting the organizations that support me. Maybe I am just an arrogant SOB but as far as shooting summertime or unprimed coyotes goes….Who the hell needs the practice?
Good hunting.
Q,
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2008 08:09 AM
At least you understand that you are in the vast minority Q. Your steady heartbeat, great talent and a work ethic to skin/scrub/flesh and throw a coyote on a stretcher in 30 minutes are attributes few and far between.
I was just digging through old threads but still cannot find the sale reports. I know the only auction I attended last year averaged around 8-9 dollars on coyotes- with a dozen or more refused.
Some of this can be attributed to poor fur but some was equally poor fur handling.
These types of factors (like fur handling practices) show the $15 average we've thrown around here can be a little lofty for a guy getting into the sport. I agree a big fur boom would increase the number of skinners out there- and it would also improve the fur handling practices in sheds across the country.
Now which candidate is going to bring in a fur boom?
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newbomb
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posted October 14, 2008 10:52 AM
I am one of those southern Indiana recreational callers who skins everything I kill. I hunted my ass off from oct 15 to march 15 and managed to kill 7 coyotes.My partner killed 2. Thats 9 coyotes in 6 months.I got to take 6 coyote furs to the local buyer he rufused 2 and gave 12.50 for 2 and 17.50 for 2. I also called in a couple of red fox and they went 12 for one and 17 for one. It was absolutly worth it to me.
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2008 12:11 PM
Jeremy, you should also mention what he told you about those coyotes. Didn't he say they were some of the best coyotes, and better handled fur, he'd seen all season?
Ole' Blueballs was one of the three buyers at the auction I attended. He refused to bid on so many furs that the crowd began to protest! If he buys it, he'll make money on it... he isn't a risk taker. I wonder if he'll even buy fur this year under the current stock market and economy conditions? I'm hearing grumbles that many buyers aren't going open up this year.
I sold a few fox and about two dozen coyotes for a healthy fur check last season. Between Canadian auctions, ambitious taxidermist and folks looking for tanned pelts I brought in over $600. Probably could've got $650 if I hadn't shot them all with a 25WSSM. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 14, 2008 01:24 PM
What people get for there fur depends on a lot of things. Good quality fur that is put up and marketed right will still fetch a fair price.
Jrb I don’t think I am in the vast minority because I skin. Well over a million pieces of fur hit the auction block at NAFA every year. NAFA is the biggest but it is just one auction house. God knows how much fur is traded through private channels and other auctions across the country. The number would be truly staggering. Then think about the fur harvested in other countries?
If you take all the predator-hunting sights combined and counted up how many coyotes the members take and then subtract the number of coyotes that get skinned how many would you end up within a calendar year? A thousand maybe? Two thousand or three thousand? Our local fur buyer buys that many out of one of his shops and over twice that many combined.
How many furbearers do recreational hunters take that do not utilize the fur? It is anybody’s guess but it is becoming more and more all the time. I do think though that it is not yet even in the ballpark of what trappers and fur hunters take especially when you count red and gray fox and coon.
On the Internet I am sure I am in the vast minority but as big as it is it is still a small place. Few people know anything about the fur trade or how to put up and market their animals. As we speak there is a guy on PM suggesting that when you skin a coyote in the field you should skin it down to the head and then cut it off. Later when you get home and have more time you can work on the head. No big deal, the guy just doesn’t know any different.
In the big scheme of things whether you skin or not is not as important I think is how you represent yourself. When you look at all the other successful wildlife organizations they all have similarities. They learned a long time ago that public relations are a critical and delicate issue. If coyote hunters would hold them selves to the same standards of ethics that other organizations did for the animals they pursue I think we would be one step ahead of the game.
The problem is that coyotes wear to many hats. They are pests, furbearers and sometimes-great trophies. They are kind of a transition animal that is caught somewhere between a varmint and a game animal. We may never come together on what is the right thing to do. But I strongly believe that the promotion of the utilization of animals and ethical hunting practices has been the foundation in the fight to keep our hunting rights and privileges in tact. If we extend these practices into the predator hunting ranks I think we will all benefit from it in the long run.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Leonard
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posted October 14, 2008 01:39 PM
Appreciate those thoughts, Quinton.
But, one thing we need to keep in mind is the wide range of labels associated with coyotes. Fur bearer, stock killer, varmint, trophy, etc.
This means there will always be several motivations for the casual pickup driver as well as the deliberate pursuer. Not even counting animal control professionals.
I just think it is what it is, and am thankful for the opportunity to hunt a worthy adversary. I admire and respect the coyote, yet, I'd plug one ; just because. Complicated, ya know?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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GCrock
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posted October 14, 2008 01:49 PM
Q: Few people know anything about the fur trade or how to put up and market their animals.
Sounds like maybe the beginning of Predator Skinning University(PSU)!!!! You could have special knives and stretchers for sale with the QW logo, have a 2 day course on skinning and putting up fur the right way! Imagine that--people paying you to show them how to make more money on the fur they harvest, and you get help with skinning hundreds of animals!
Seriously, great post Q.
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Leonard
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posted October 14, 2008 02:08 PM
PSUMAN...I like it!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2008 02:21 PM
Great post Q, but it's based on the premise that I said you are a "vast minority" because you skin. You are a minority in the predator hunting world because you kill hundreds of predators, you don't get a rush out of killing one, and you can perform top notched fur handling in record time. Hell- why don't you just go ahead and autograph my rifle? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I agree that very few of the coyotes killed in the continental US have any correlation to a predator hunting forum.... verrrrry few do. The topic here was public perception of calling, and the infighting amongst sportsmen as new guys get involved for SPORT over FUR. My argument is that Al Morris and his $15 comment had little "end result" effect on who kills what and who skins what. If that makes any sense. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 14, 2008 03:02 PM
PUSS…..Predator University Skinning School. Catchy isn’t it? LOL Maybe Tony will take me on as a partner? Word is he is fresh out of one and unemployed to boot? Maybe that is why he is turning calls out as fast as he is? Who knows but I am sure if it all comes out it will be the watered down and highly spun version. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
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posted October 14, 2008 04:04 PM
Without getting all windy about the morality of killing off-season coyotes, I'll limit my submission here to this issue of throwing Al Morris under the bus because of something he said on television. Bear in mind that I just met Al this past August at the KC Expo and our relationship goes as far and for as long as it takes to shake the man's hand and tell one another how nice it is to have met.
Scott, Cal and the ADC crowd are in the employ of USDA and/or their respective county programs and the agreement between them and their employer is really rather simple: kill problem coyotes, and before they become a problem if at all possible, ultimately reducing depredation losses. If they do that, their nice bosses give them money which they can exchange for things like water, electricity, homeowner's insurance and a roof.
Big Al, in similar fashion, has a job to do, too, with the same basic agreement in place between him and, I presume in this case, Hunter's Specialties. They have certain expectations of Al and Al accommodates them by promoting predator hunting when and where he can. I can't speak for either of those parties, but I suspect that they don't pay Al to tell folks when NOT to hunt. His job, plainly put, is to get folks out into the field using HS gear. Whether or not that leads to skinning is probably not of much concern to them.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
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posted October 14, 2008 04:06 PM
Years ago when i took the hunters safety class the DNR handed out a hand book to use as a guide-line and had three classifications; Food, furbearer, and pest. I have lived by this guide line all my life and preach it to those willing to hear it.
My father never had a hunters safety class when he was a young hunter but also lived by the same guide line, where he got it from i do not know.
It must be carved in stone somewhere or maybe it was lost just like the holy grail, who knows!
Last season we put up all of our coon,coyotes, and red fox and by know means did we get rich, but it helped to pay for the gas so we could hunt more and i also bought some nice hunting equipement with my share.
I can't make anyone save the hides but if you want a little extra cash in the pockets give it a try.. Later...T/A
P.S. And i'm a PUSS (Predator University Skinning student)
[ October 14, 2008, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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stevecriner
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posted October 14, 2008 05:12 PM
You know I like you TA know matter what i say!
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
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Wiley E
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posted October 14, 2008 06:41 PM
Q: "But I strongly believe that the promotion of the utilization of animals and ethical hunting practices has been the foundation in the fight to keep our hunting rights and privileges in tact. If we extend these practices into the predator hunting ranks I think we will all benefit from it in the long run."
Exactly!
If you polled the vast majority of non hunters, one of their biggest concerns is utilization. I know many high number coyote men that have put up a lot of coyotes over the years and there is nothing that brings more self satisfaction than a string of well put up fox, coyote, or cats. Some even sell skulls and claws.
I realize that not everyone is going to see a worthwhile return on their skinned coyotes and I realize that mange has made them worthless in many areas. Shooting them in September will assure a low return.
At the same time, in areas with a decent coyote, I see guys doing a really good job of putting up their prime coyotes and marketing them through NAFA and they are realizing $25 - $35 averages for well handled good quality coyotes even during a low coyote market.
I'm not saying everyone should think like I but when we display our sport in front of the world on public television, I would like to see the bar set a little higher but that's just my opinion.
Interpreting that as "throwing Al Morris under the bus" takes quite an imagination.
~SH~
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3 Toes
El Guapo
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posted October 14, 2008 07:18 PM
I'm calling bullshit on Quinten. If you didn't get some kind of enjoyment out of coyote hunting you simply wouldn't do it. If you were in it just for the fur you'd be running at them with steel and cable instead of lead. I too am long past the sweaty palms and nervousness when a coyote shows but I still enjoy it immensely when a called coyote comes rolling in and I shoot him. I don't get a big surge of anything but satisfaction to see one killed.
I still maintain the a 15 or 20 dollar coyote can't possibly pay for itself. Not if you figure time, fuel, guns, shells, etc. I don't care how fast you can put one up. But if there are people that will put them up for 20 bucks why would there be any demand for the price to go up?
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Lungbuster
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posted October 14, 2008 08:22 PM
Quinton, 2 questions please:
What do you mean about "Marketing" my fur the right way?
I've only been putting up fur a few years, but I've never heard that term.
And, When do you start hunting for the year?
[ October 14, 2008, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Lungbuster ]
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 14, 2008 09:23 PM
LOL Well it may not pay for its self all the time but it will go further towards the cause than leaving them lay. Heck if you have a fur buyer in the area and a good coyote you could sell them on the cob to help take a little sting out of the gas. Saving them or not a guy is still buying guns, gas and shells. LOL
Lungbuster..
Marketing is just that. I have a number of fur buyers I can call on and talk prices. Some of them have better markets for different kinds of fur and can pay better. If you don’t like what you see you can try an auction. I sold some fur at a CO auction on 3 different years but went back to selling to local buyers. I have sold to Scott Schaffer of NE, Mike Powel of CO, Johnny Hughes of MT, Tommy King of TX and Ken Petska of NE. One year I sold to a private guy that tanned them and sold them to tourists. That is a benefit of putting up your own fur and having reasonable quantities. You are more flexible. If you bring them in fresh and thawed they kind of have you by the balls. LOL They know you have to unload them.
The earliest I have started was on the 18th of Oct one year. That is really to early but they sold. Usually by the first of November coyotes have very little if any blue in them. Coon around here is about a week behind the coyotes. By the first week of November they are snow white. Coons will sell a little blue but the fur buyers grumble. And don’t think you can slip a blue coon past the buyer by selling them on the cob. LOL They may look pretty as heck to you but fur buyers can pick them out. To tell they brush the fur back a little with there hand or blow on it to see if any guard hairs are still growing up through the under fur. It is worth going after coon though at the first of November. Coon are a quantity animal and bad weather will keep them holed up. If you wait to long you will miss the boat. Buyers know that too and have orders to fill.
Fur is either getting better or worse. There is an old saying among fur men and that is fur is only prime about 15 minutes a year. When you talk to the crotchety old county buyer the dang things are either not quite ready or breaking down. LOL
For coyotes the first of November is a great time to start and when to quit really depends on the year and conditions. I have seen some start breaking down in December but usually you can get good fur into February. I quit when about 50% start showing signs of breaking down. The first sign usually starts in the hips. About the same time you will notice the guard hares getting week too or have a “singed” look to them.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Leonard
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posted October 14, 2008 11:22 PM
Yeah, I agree Cal.
The day I don't get a little thrill from dusting a called coyote is the day I'll quit.
Come on Quinton, you ain't that jaded? Youngster.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31533 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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