|
Author
|
Topic: Midwest Hunt
|
predator sniper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 702
|
posted November 04, 2008 08:36 AM
Hey all:
got this thread and wanted to add my thoughts. I do want to hear about pros and cons on this 2 pointer subject.
I do not get to spend much time on the boards so feel free to e-mail me brent@predatorsniperstyx.com
There are not alot of coyotes out there that have a 80% plus white tipped tail. I just returned from a NM hunt where 2 coyotes that were shot had the white tipped tail.
Allot of coyotes will have 6 to 20 hairs in the black tip on thier tails. They would not qualify. The tail needs to be 80% + white. (I belive that any person could tell if the tail hair was compromised to be made mostly white)
This may not be a good idea for the contest itself, as it can change the place standings for sure, and there is no skill required. It is like a lottery bonus. Maybe the 2 pointer coyote needs to be used as a lottery type of situation.
For example, $1.00 from every teams entry fee goes into a pot. This monies will held until a 2 pointer is taken. Each year monies will be taken and added to the pot till a 2 poiter coyote has been taken.
In the event that there are several 2 pointer coyotes taken during the contest, ties would be broken by drawning of cards. The highest card takes top money and the second hinghest card takes next money and so forth.
This would make it even for all teams and there would be no skill requirement, geographic benifit or unfair advantage by any certain team. Pure and simple the 2 pointer coyote would be a lottery coyote.
Please throw ideas around about the 2 pointer coyote and give me some input. I want to do something new and different! Keeping The Midwest Coyote Calling Event the Masters of Coyote Calling!
Again Thanks all
Brent Rueb
--------------------
www.predatorsniperstyx.com
Posts: 28 | From: St. Francis, Ks | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
|
posted November 04, 2008 10:06 AM
Brent,
Thank you for coming on here and voicing your thoughts. Open talk about it with you included is probly best.
I dont mind the idea of 1 dollar from each team going to a team with a white tipped coyote. I dont know how often they occur or anything like that but it still leaves the opportunity for a less fortunate/motivated/lucky team to have a chance at winning something without them placing by shooting less coyotes than someone else and beating them.
[ November 04, 2008, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted November 04, 2008 10:37 AM
Brent, I have never seen a coyote with an 80% white tail. I see a lot of coyotes with white tips but that never comprises more than a guestimated 10 to 15% of the total tail length.
IP: Logged
|
|
Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
|
posted November 04, 2008 11:21 AM
I can see your point about the road races. It probably makes for a safer event as well. Generally if we have coyotes in the back of the truck we are at check in at least an hour early. We never have had the confidence that one or two more stands would change much but we knew if we beat everyone else with that number of coyotes to check in it would. I guess in an event where ties were broken by total weight we would be making more stands.
I must admit if we saw 52 coyotes I would want at least 26 of them in the bed to be satisfied. If we only killed 13 something went wrong either we did not do well in handling multiples, didn’t shoot straight, bumped a bunch walking in, or made some other mental mistake.
Byran J.: "What about the guy getting in the thick stuff with a shotgun. He might have had 52 coyotes running around him all day long but could only see 8?"
SH: If he didn't see them, they would or should not have been counted as "seen".
I guess the point I’m trying to make here is we are dealing with unknown variables. Part of the game is to set your stand up to see most of the animals you call. Poor stand selection will cost you but could make shooting percentage look good. IF two different hunters could hunt the same area and all things remain equal. One went through made 20 stands and killed 8 of 8 coyotes seen. The other went through the same area made 20 stands and with better stand selection saw 26 and killed 13. One had a much higher shooting percentage but I think the other made the most of what he had. SELF EVALUATION: If I made 20 stands and killed 8 for 8 I would be happy but I should be looking for things I might have done differently. (on contest day) Am I wrong?
SH: “I just like to see credit given to those who call and shoot a high percentage of what they see.”
I can certainly appreciate that. In most cases that credit is due. I know for a fact that I have killed more coyotes on contest day than much better teams, simply because I had the TIME to find more coyotes than they did.
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 04, 2008 12:07 PM
Higgins, he is talking about a tail with a white tip, not a tail that is 80% white. You know? There are some tails where there are a few strands of black mixed with the white, ON THE TIP. He doesn't think it qualifies? I think a white tip is a white tip, regardless of the percentage of white hair. Talk about splitting hairs!
Okay, I will throw another of my half baked opinions into the mix. A coyote is a coyote, this is bs about breaking ties by weighing them, unless it's the heaviest coyote. You guys are way behind the learning curve on this issue. We were breaking ties 40 years ago by position. If it comes down to speeding and recless driving, that's a separate issue that can be dealt with, but of all the methods used to break ties, the earliest returning is the fairest, if we must BREAK TIES. I can see it in Pennsylvania, where there might be twenty teams with one coyote. I guess weighing the coyotes makes a little sense. But, in my book 15 yearling coyotes is equal to 15 mature coyotes when it comes to determining winners by body count. If it's body count, it's body count. If it's weight, then numbers don't mean a thing. Eight mature coyotes might WEIGH more than twelve young coyotes. When you come right down to it, it's calling the most and killing the most that matters. Within the timeframe allowed.
Another bullshit idea is asking how many coyotes they saw, as opposed to what percentage they killed. This is beyond stupid. What, now we have the honor system? Can we just say how many we killed and not bother to drag them back to check in?
In some circumstances, some places, a team might have multiples on every stand, and if it's in fairly heavy cover, they only kill one of three or one of four. The number seen begins to have less importance than under other situations. Other times, WTF, you see five singles and dump five. Big whoopie.
Don't even bother asking how many were seen. How is that germane to the contest? I personally don't give a shit if you killed every coyote you saw and returned with 5, or you missed five and returned with five....it's still five coyotes.
This skill evaluation stuff is for the birds. Either it's body count or it isn't. That's where the bs ends. I mean, honestly; if somebody was attempting to rate my performance because I announced 8 seen and five killed, without understanding why it was impossible to even get a shot off at the other three, well, that's a superficial evaluation.
It all comes down to quality hunting areas. Some of these guys have gold plated access, and others don't, for a multitude of reasons. Once you reach a certain level, makeable kills are expected and there are few excuses. If a competent team says they saw ten and killed five, I assume they have good reason. I will not think; MAN, they stink!
Bottom line: body count.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
|
posted November 04, 2008 12:44 PM
Good points LB.
Guys can we try not to stray from the point of this thread and the original subject if we can.
[ November 04, 2008, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 04, 2008 12:51 PM
WHAT?
No, I don't think so, and I don't think you have any business suggesting it! We specifically don't have moderators on Huntmasters, Amigo. There is no such thing as staying on topic. This is an open forum, free speech is encouraged.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
|
posted November 04, 2008 01:05 PM
10-4 have at it then
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
|
posted November 04, 2008 03:12 PM
Leonard I don’t see that you and I are too far off?
Maybe, you are upset about my evaluation of the numbers? I was just trying to convey what I would think if I put up those numbers. I would never evaluate another team that way. Skill evaluation is personal, and Scott posted the formula that I use to evaluate my personal performance on another site some time ago. I’m kinda trying to get him to give it up here. It has helped me improve and find areas that I need to work on to be more competitive.
I’m not going to say that a competent team stinks if they kill 1 or no coyotes either. If they are truly competent and proven it in the past there are valid reasons as well.
Edit: to add, but I don’t think they should get a trophy.
[ November 04, 2008, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Bryan J ]
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
|
posted November 04, 2008 03:36 PM
Just spent a long while reading through the old longer threads LOL. New to the board and kind I put my boot in my mouth. I understand better now.
I was just trying to call out the point about the white tips taking even more of the skill element away. I see all your points and agree with most. Was not meant to be personal in any way just trying to call out that topic. My bad. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
|
posted November 04, 2008 03:57 PM
I stand by my original statement. I hate to see the winner of a coyote killing contest being detemined by a genetic lottery. The winner ofthe contest should be the one with the most killed coyotes. If thats one of the teams with the best ground, so be it. Its all part of it. They are probably also the team that worked year round to make the contacts and get the ground.
I always thought that the first back was the best way to break a tie, but I had never looked at it from Scotts point. It makes sence too, but giving extra credit for a friggin white tipped tail doesnt.
Maintain
P.S. I voted today also(hows that for off topic lol)
--------------------
A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
|
posted November 04, 2008 04:55 PM
Brent,
I like the $1 idea a lot better than it being part of the entire contest and it might be a deciding factor of who might win.
I don't see why a guy that checks in first should have anymore right to win then the guy that checked in right after that guy with the same number of coyotes. What makes the first guy any better. The rules state what time you have to be back and if you don't use the whole time then thats your own fault. Im not sure if the weight is any better but I think its probably the best for reasons Scott has already stated.
Jeremy Gugelmeyer
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
|
posted November 04, 2008 05:17 PM
Didn't we kick around an idea once of a nationwide coyote calling event linked up via the internet.
One day, sunrise to suset, anywhere in the U.S.
It would allow for everyone to use a home field, honeyhole, advantage.
Let's just say the first Sat. in Dec, we have the VHA hunt here now on that date and just link up the results with the other hunts and let the chips fall where they may. We still have our local hunt and we see how we stacked up against other areas of the country on that day. Perfect, hell no, but different!!
--------------------
The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
|
posted November 04, 2008 06:00 PM
I guess I don't look at the "how many seen to how many killed" ratio as being a way to assess a teams call/killing ability, but rather a simple stored number that can be used to judge coyote populations across the country.
Like someone else said, seen coyotes doesn't tell us how many were called, so how can it be used to determine the call to kill ratio. Hell, they count coyotes that were seen from the road, bumped coyotes, called coyotes, etc. That ain't got nothing to do with call to kill ratio, what it does do is tell us "how many coyotes were seen" Nothing more, nothing less! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted November 04, 2008 06:16 PM
I have never understood why they asked how many coyotes were seen. I can't imagine that many are totally honest about that anyway. Nobobdys business and all that matters is what was killed. I do however agree with ties being broken by wieght. I have been in a few races to Rawlins and it's not fun. I think that each team should use most of the allotted time and ties be broken by wieght. It was always a gamble to quit early to try to beat someone in a tiebreaker, or do you hunt to the end and hope for another coyote. You aren't comparing 15 big coyotes to 12 little ones. It's a tie breaker, you are comparing 15 to 15.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted November 04, 2008 07:14 PM
Patterson; You can probably go ahead and cancel your newspaper & magazine subscriptions........there's a ton of reading here. Some good info & a wee bit of b.s.
Randy; I like the idea of a National Internet Coyote Calling Event. A decent day & I could tie for 5th with about 700 other guys but hey...5th in a National sounds good.
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7584 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
|
posted November 04, 2008 09:31 PM
Koko, that aint no lie. I used to get predatorextreme but do not anymore. I didnt really like a lot of the articles and only found myself looking at all the pretty advertisments to sucker people into buying worthless stuff. I find a lot more usefull info sifting through the forums. LOT of stuff on this site to read through.
I think having ties broken by time of check in might work well for one day contests but i believe two day contests are meant to draw more teams in from further distances.
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
|
posted November 04, 2008 10:09 PM
Cal,
The best answer to the question of how many were seen, would be "just these, and a couple that the dumbass missed"
Just be sure that your partner doesn't tell anyone that he killed everything he shot at !
--------------------
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted November 04, 2008 10:13 PM
L: "This is an open forum, free speech is encouraged."
Good, we'll test it out on your, self proclaimed, half baked opinions. LOL!
L: "A coyote is a coyote, this is bs about breaking ties by weighing them, unless it's the heaviest coyote."
There is three good reasons to break ties by total weight of coyotes.
1. Stop the road races.
2. Creates a disincentive for teams to stack on top of each other near the check in point on the second day of the contest.
3. There is unquestionably more expertise required in killing larger more mature educated coyotes than a bunch of mangy pups. Weight gives the advantage to the teams who call and kill more adults WHEN BREAKING TIES. If this was only about body counts we'd see who could gas the most coyote dens and wire out the little turtle crawlers with closed eyes.
"Heck, old Henry brought in 40 of the little turds in a gunny sack"
L: "We were breaking ties 40 years ago by position."
40 years later they discovered a better way! LOL!
L: "If it comes down to speeding and recless driving, that's a separate issue that can be dealt with,..."
Haha! Oh yeh? How?
"ATTENTION ALL UNITS, BE ON THE ALERT FOR A BLACK EXTENDED CAB PICKUP WITH A SHOOTING RACK ON THE TOPPER...BE READY WITH THE SPIKE STRIPS"
L: "but of all the methods used to break ties, the earliest returning is the fairest,"
I respectfully disagree!
L: "But, in my book 15 yearling coyotes is equal to 15 mature coyotes when it comes to determining winners by body count."
In my book, when breaking ties, those who can handle the mature coyotes beat the milk teeth shooters every time.
L: "Eight mature coyotes might WEIGH more than twelve young coyotes."
Then twelve wins. Weight is only considered during breaking of ties and in the big coyote / little coyote (THEY'RE NOT DOGS THEY'RE COYOTES - for those who call them "dogs") contest.
L: "Another bullshit idea is asking how many coyotes they saw, as opposed to what percentage they killed. This is beyond stupid. What, now we have the honor system? Can we just say how many we killed and not bother to drag them back to check in?"
What are you talking about "drag them back to check in"??
You are asked how many you saw during check in and you answer the question. What's the problem?
You did bring up a very important point here that I have considered but hadn't mentioned. You trust that people are telling you the truth about how many they saw?
That's a huge variable but I still find the information of coyotes seen interesting from the standpoint of populations. Better coyote hunters will consistantly kill over 50% of the coyotes they see THAT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO. If a coyote runs over the hill, that coyote isn't lost if he's not leaving the country. Give me a team that can consistantly roll doubles and triples as opposed to those who piss in their boots at the thought of multiple coyotes and they will consistantly rise to the top.
I find the "coyotes seen" information interesting, you don't. God bless America!
L: "In some circumstances, some places, a team might have multiples on every stand, and if it's in fairly heavy cover, they only kill one of three or one of four. The number seen begins to have less importance than under other situations."
I can see your point from the standpoint of tall heavy Arizona type cover. In the more open northern plains, you have more opportunity to kill the coyotes you see.
L: "Don't even bother asking how many were seen. How is that germane to the contest? I personally don't give a shit if you killed every coyote you saw and returned with 5, or you missed five and returned with five....it's still five coyotes."
Try the decaf Amigo! Don't take it so personal. It's just a question Leonard.
"How many coyotes did you see Leonard"
L: "WHAT THE #&(#@^(*# are you asking me such a #^&*@#(^#@ stupid #^(@ question as #&*@^( that for????? )*R)#$#!!!!!
Question: "I'll put you down for three then Leonard"
You crack me up when you forget your meds. LOL!
Of course there is numerous variables involved and those who have been at this game for awhile know what those variables are and take them into consideration. I wasn't suggesting it was a catch all comparison. I know from my own experiences that any time I kill over 50% of the coyotes I see THAT I HAVE ACCESS TO, I've had an "above average day" (variables considered).
You can't kill large numbers of coyotes unless there is large numbers of coyotes there to be killed.
Again, assuming the information is honest. I'm sure since some have started paying attention to shooting percentages, the information is probably less reliable.
Did we test the limits of free speech here? LOL!
~SH~
[ November 05, 2008, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted November 04, 2008 10:23 PM
Patterson: "10-4 have at it then"
Ah don't tuck your tail and run. His bark is bigger than his bite. He threw my fat ass out the door before and I'm back ribbing him. He drops the hackles when he starts pulling cactus out of those hush puppies. LOL!
Mocassins to walk across the cactus flats......sheeeesh!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 04, 2008 10:46 PM
I'm too bummed to address all of Scott's specious arguments. But, we used to deal with those speed violations all the time, by way of the hunt rules and hunt committee inquisions afterwards. It stops it just fine. I still say, a coyote is a coyote. You are on the same slippery slope as awarding TWO POINTS for white tips. A mature coyote is a coyote and so is a pup. What are you suggesting, two points for a mature coyote? IT is the luck of the draw what kind of a response you get on a stand. Take a pup and be satisfied, a coyote is a coyote and when you turn in 12 pups, they count just the same, in every contest I ever participated in, which is probably more that you will ever see, by the way.
Good hunting. LB
PS my Hush puppies were Norman Swartznegger approved desert camo combat boots, just to save a couple pounds in baggage. I actually didn't know there was cactus in South Dakota....if that's what you call that tiny little shit? Now, we got real cactus, my friend. Don't hit it with your truck or you will be walking; and not from punctured tires either.
[ November 04, 2008, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted November 05, 2008 05:57 AM
Leonard,
In thinking about this, I think you misunderstood something here. There is no award or recognition that goes with coyotes seen vs coyotes killed. To be honest, I don't think it was meant to be any more than a barometer on the coyote population. Some of us started looking at shooting percentages, as a point of discussion, and as a self evaluation of making the most of what you have but as you mentioned, it's only as good as the honor system and the variables involved (access to the coyotes seen). It's information that is written down and displayed and everyone looks at it differently or they don't even look at it. There is no tangible incentives involved with the number of "coyotes seen" vs "coyotes killed".
L: "What are you suggesting, two points for a mature coyote?"
Of course not! Total weight of coyotes is simply a way to break ties that doesn't cause the problems I mentioned above and it rewards those who kill more mature coyotes as a result. A team with 12 milk whiskered pups beats a team with 11 old snaggle tooths. Again, it is only used as a tie breaker and I'll argue till the end of time that it's a better system because I have seen the results of each. Breaking ties by placing leads to far more problems and that is an opinion shared by many other hunters who have made the comparison.
The "big coyote / little coyote" aspect of these hunts has nothing to do with placing or the placing awards. It is simply an OPTIONAL addition to the contest so someone who didn't get many coyotes might still have the biggest or smallest coyote and be awarded with some gas money. In most contests, the "big coyote - little coyote" contest is an option for each team to decide whether they want to get into it or not.
The white tippped coyote tail aspect would put another interesting twist on the competition if it was kept on the side as Brent mentioned and had nothing to do with the placing. I'm totally opposed to white tips being given any other advantage because it's a novelty that has nothing to do with skill. It's a new twist that creates interest much like brown vs. yellow eyed coyotes to those who are paying attention.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the contests you were involved in also awarded points OR included other species in the body count such as bobcats, grey fox, red fox, etc. etc. Right?
Most of the coyote calling contests anymore are just that, coyote calling contests.
I'm not saying this to grease Brent in any way but simply as a matter of stating fact. Brent runs, far and away, the best coyote calling contest I have ever been in because the playing field is as level as you can get short of drawing for areas (not saying that drawing for areas would be a better option or that there wouldn't be other problems with it). Your entry money and calcutta money, short of what is actually needed to run the contest, is paid back to the contestants.
As someone mentioned, part of the quest is to find a good area but again, having a good area has nothing to do with the skill involved with what you do with the coyotes you have. I only emphasize that point because some teams are very good at making the most of what they have but at the end of the day, how well you called and shot for the situation you had available is for personal satisfaction only unless you were able to kill enough coyotes to compete.
As an example, last year in St. Francis we had the worst year so far. We only saw 4 and killed 3. We shot 4 times and the only shot missed was a shot I missed at 500 yards at a coyote that "heard" us and wouldn't come in. I felt good about our shooting but it didn't win us a dime. LOL!
Save me a place Brent my check will be arriving soon.
~SH~
[ November 05, 2008, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 05, 2008 09:14 AM
I have not misunderstood anything, Scott.
We are debating the merits of (among other things) awarding placement based on the weight of the whole body count. I submit that this is exactly the same thing as 2 points for a white tail. Perhaps some skill is involved in killing mature coyotes, but don't try and sling some bullshit by talking about "12 milk whiskered pups". That won't be a factor and you know it. More likely, one team will have three YOY coyotes and another team will have four....maybe five, in their total number of (what?) twelve, for the sake of argument. Now, stay with me here. I KNOW we aren't talking about 11 snaggle tooths versus 12 pups. It would be twelve snaggle tooths versus 12 milk wiskered, in your version of reality. At that point, one of those old snaggle toothed becomes a TWO POINTER!
Whatever, if that's the rule, that's the rule. But, why do you discount a team that is sitting in the parking lot four hours early with twelve coyotes, versus a team that made twelve more stands and just barely made it? Also, with twelve coyotes? You don't see some basis for recognition?
That is...if a tie must be decided, and, I'm not actually sure it is necessary? You have so many hours to wack and stack. If two teams have the same amount, why get into other considerations for judging skill in killing coyotes? It is imperfect standards, it's subjective; you and I could argue the relative merits of each remedy 'til hell freezes over and not change either's mind.
One small irritation, if you don't mind?
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the contests you were involved in also awarded points OR included other species in the body count such as bobcats, grey fox, red fox, etc. etc. Right?
Most of the coyote calling contests anymore are just that, coyote calling contests.
You are uninformed. We certainly did have coyote only hunts, particularly if fur bearers were not in season.
And, what of it? We had a point system that awarded nine points for a coyote and twelve points for a bobcat and five points for a GRAY fox and 100 points for wolf and lion. Are you discounting my opinion because our hunts included other than coyotes? Most of your coyote calling contests are just that, coyote calling contests. You might be interested to know that the winner of our mixed bag hunts usually killed between two and three dozen coyotes....along with those other animals that you seem to discount. Make no mistake, we can kill a lot of coyotes when called upon. And, yes, I know what you are thinking, half of the hunting was at night, so I suppose it's also meaningless?
One last thought. I agree completely that Brent Rueb runs a hell of a fine event. The only problem is the restricted access for those coming from far away. And, that there is the problem with the apples and oranges of attempting to rate skill based on performance in Wyoming and Kansas and Colorado. The folks that have advantage are either famous, or have the entire winter to scout areas. Good for them, but there is more to judging talent by placing in these various hunts. Like, it is something around 2,000 miles to St Francis, but I think we have teams out here that would be competitive, if they had unlimited time and access. And, that's the problem with Brent's hunt. Some people have ranches locked up for whatever reason, and it makes it hard to beat them. It's not a level playing field. I don't know how to fix it, but I do believe it is a waste of time to even try it, for someone in my position.
G H
LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
|
posted November 05, 2008 10:06 AM
I thought I would pass Brent's new proposal to everybody. Whats everybody think?
"Something new that we are considering for the Midwest Coyote Calling Event is a lottery type of contest. There is a new term that has come to coyote hunting and that is the 2 pointer coyote. A 2 pointer coyote is a coyote that has a aprodominatly white tipped tail (80% or more white than black). I would like to get input for you callers on my new proposal for a lottery 2 pointer coyote.
I propose that we take 1 or 2 dollars out of each teams entry fee (or this could be a added to the total amount of the regular entry fees as not to take away for regular payout) and put it into the 2 pointer coyote fund. This fund would be added to each year till a 2 pointer coyote has been harvested and brought to check in, during the Midwest Event only! In the event that there were more than one 2 pointers harvested, teams would draw cards and the highest card would take the largest amount of the fund with the other monies going to the other teams with 2 pointer coyotes.
This would be a lottery type of side contest and would have no bearing on place finishings in either class. The 2 pointer coyote would still have it’s same value as the rest of the teams coyote count and total weight.
So as an example; if we started in 2009 with $1.00 per team (135) the fund would be $135.00. If no 2 pointer was taken during the event then in 1010 another $1.00 per team would be added to the fund. Lets say that 2, 2 pointers were harvested and brought to check in during the 2010 event. The coyotes would be inspected to see that there was no tampering with the hair and that there was truely 80 % white hair in the tip of the tail. If both coyotes qualify then the two teams would draw from a deck of cards. The team with the highest card would take 60% of the fund, and the other team takes 40%. The fund would have $270.00 in it, split would be $162.00 and $108.00. The fund would start at 0 again and would be built up till another 2 pointer is harvested.
There are 2 pointer coyotes out there, not many but i have harvested some. Hunters usually see anywhere from 6 hairs or more but normally no more than 20 or so in coyotes tails. A 2 pointer is easlily detected and it is very apparent that almost all the hair in the tip of the tail is white. I have wanted to come up with something new besides the normal big dog - little dog contest. Something that lets everyone have a chance at and that there is no skill requirement to. Plain and simple a lottery coyote.
Please give me feed back about this new proposal. I want to hear pros and cons, input on dollar amounts and any other ideas that you callers may have.
e-mail me at brent@predatorsniperstyx.com with your comments."
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 05, 2008 10:51 AM
Whatever, if he thinks he needs to tinker with the hunt? But, out here, white tips aren't unusual, at all? I don't understand why he wants to focus on such a thing? At least he has backed away from giving two points for a white tip, in the actual contest. However, you could just as easily award prize money for the oldest most snaggle toothed, gray muzzled coyote. At least that would involve some level of skill, rather than blind luck. I bet Higgins would be happy to judge tooth wear?
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
