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Author
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Topic: ADC on the Dark Continent
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted December 02, 2008 01:08 PM
Okay, that is a bit of a mischaracterization of the issue, at least in my view.
I know, with absolute certainty, that you can see the flash when a fox romps across a clearing, as described by Joel and Shaw. Not my first rodeo, I have done the same exact thing, for various reasons, like heavy brush all around the vehicle, but there is a clearing over yonder, etc. Not to be picky, but a coyote is a lot less likely to be wide eyed and bushy tailed, and frequently will purposely look away from a light source. NOT all the time, and not all coyotes, and it depends on the intensity of the light, but I will state catagorically, that there will be times when a coyote will not flash even when you are the source of the sound and also the light. I have seen times when I need to depend on body movement because they refuse to look at the light. Maybe it's like what Hein said about caracal, they close their eyes, or just look down, but they won't flash. The caveat is; you will probably log many hours between those times when they deliberately will not look at a light source.
Anyway, I can also see the ADC justifications, and the moonlight considerations in placing a caller away from the vehicle, but....in the type of predator hunting that I do at night, this solution is hardly ever needed, nor employed. I also notice that the claim is not that the eyes can be seen just as well as the more conventional situation where the sound is coming from the vehicle.
If I could figure out a way to "launch" a speaker fifty yards from the vehicle without a lot of trouble, I might do it once in a while? In the daytime, I do this fairly frequently; drop off a speaker on the side of the two track and then continue on down the road a ways. This keeps the scent to a minimum, and as we all know, the sound of a vehicle driven on a two track is a whole lot less startling than walking out fifty yards and walking back. Also less strenuous and quieter, especially on decomposed granite and dead leaves, for instance.
So, I have no problem with anyone's methods and I think it is worthwhile to discuss the pros and cons of these things. Somebody, somewhere may find value? And, in my humble opinion, that's what these forums are all about.
The other thing I would like to discuss, is (as I understand him?) Hein doesn't use a red light. He uses a dimmer. Nothing wrong with that, done properly. I used an amber lens for many years and thought it just as good as red, but it really isn't, especially with pressured coyotes. They can see the red light, make no mistake, but even with a fairly high intensity, they apparently do not feel threatened by it? I think white light is essential for identifying and shooting, at least 80% of the time, but there is no negative aspect to using a red or amber lens for working an animal into a shootable position.
Just a few of my half baked thoughts on these subjects. I welcome any and all input.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Joel Hughes
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posted December 02, 2008 02:23 PM
In no way was I implying this to be your first rodeo. Just as in no way am I suggesting that putting the sound away is more appropriate than keeping it at the light/shooter.
One topic here is, the animal doesn't have to look AT the light to get a reflection. I think some people who have not tried it believe that because that's what they've been told. Heck, it even makes sense if you think about that claim. The times I have tried it and called something in, the eyes never stopped shining. And the eyes were not looking AT me, as they were focused on the sound which was away from me. I could tell that by their approach and by observing through the scope. I am not going to say this is always the case. I never say always, and I don't have enough stands under my belt with this particular method to be so bold.
A separate topic you just brought up is how sometimes you don't get a reflection even when the sound is with you and the light. Anyone that has done much night hunting can think of times when they did not get a reflection at all. I wish I could explain that one. Just this weekend, I killed a coyote 20 yards from the truck. I first saw her at about 100 yards out. Never one time did I see a reflection. Only saw the coyote bobbing up and down all the way in. It obviously was looking at me and the light because I could see where she was looking prior to pulling the trigger. This has happened to me more than a handful of times. I always wonder, is there something different about that particular coyote's eyeballs or what? LOL I ran the light in the same manner as I always do, so I don't know how it could have been that. Just weird.
I will leave the red vs. white to someone else. Besides, I was enjoying the accent.
Posts: 145 | From: texas | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 02, 2008 02:55 PM
No prob Joel. I didn't take what you said as personal, at all. I was just saying that I have done it and I know the eyes shine quite well, when the caller is out in a remote location.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Jaracal
Knows what it's all about
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posted December 02, 2008 05:17 PM
Hi LB
I was quite surprised to see a posting and viewpoint that you have to have the source of the light and the source of the sound from the same place. I have been doing it since I started out with the remote and can’t even remember how long ago that was. I do it every time I go out, I never even thought of not seeing an incoming eye. I try and use the advantage of being a bit of to the side and down-wind from the call to outsmart those jackal that will only work way down-wind or just to give you a better chance of not getting smelled at all. I think you have a better chance of loosing a clever jackal by getting winded than loosing one not seeing it, coming in. That is my honest opinion and I am not knocking your viewpoint at all. It has worked for me all this time and people can try it out. I have to say I now feel uncomfortable with the remote closer than 50 yards from me. Another advantage is that the sound is away from you and you can hear any vocal response from jackal so much better and you can pin-point the direction more accurately. In the end you have to have confidence in what you believe and in what you do.
Hein
Posts: 21 | From: South Africa, Freestate, Philippolis | Registered: Nov 2008
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Q-Wagoner
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posted December 02, 2008 08:37 PM
Some people really get cross ways when the subject of lighting gets brought up. I have adopted the white light with a dimmer and like it very much. There may be volumes of scientific evidence that will prove that coyotes or jackal do not see the shade of red very well but I still have a few questions.
I have read that predators are not afraid of red light. That may be true but why would they be afraid of any other color of light. White light is pure unfiltered light and is the most natural light there is. Coyotes see their world illuminated every day by white light. Just because they can see one spectrum of light better than another that does not automatically mean that they should be afraid of it.
I have read what is available about the subject but I keep returning to the same notion. And that is we should pay more attention to the intensity of the light rather than the color.
People like animals see colors differently that has been proven but this brings up a totally different set of questions. In the latest PX magazine an author states that coyotes cannot see the color green. AT ALL! Wouldn’t that make green the very best filter to use when night hunting? The old belief was that coyotes do not see red but in fact they do not see green. Well they don’t see green in the same way we see green but they must see something or they would never know that it was there right? LOL
Randy, Joel and I have conducted a triple blind scientific study of our own in TX. We used the white light technique and could tell conclusively by our post mortem inspections of a couple hundred predators that the white light works just fine. LOL
Another perk of the white light is the added range you are able to tag your coyotes or jackal at. I hope Hein finds the time to post video clips of a couple of weary jackal that got the surprise of their lives. One bit the dirt at 429 yards and the other at 471 yards. Obviously these shots are not common place but it was the use of unfiltered light that made them possible.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 02, 2008 10:34 PM
All good points, Q. I don't disagree. A well handled white light can assist in killing a lot of animals. I have heard this stuff about green being better than amber or red. The Lightforce rep promotes it because he says that red is overused and the animals are wise to it, I think is his theory? What you aren't taking into account is that out here, we always have white light available, but find it a lot less spooky to hunt with red until the shot, under the white light. Very effective, especially on multiples. See here:
The red is a 150º fog light, not a spotlight. The other is an instanly available 100 watt aircraft landing light and it has a tight pencil beam.
edit: Quinton. I should point out that hunting (relatively) tame coyotes behind locked gates is a different situation than what we have out here. The Utah boys roll the highways with multiple white spotlights out of the back of a pickup and scare the bejabbers out of every coyote in the country. Making stands with a red light is a very valuable tool in this type of situation.
[ December 02, 2008, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Leonard
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posted December 02, 2008 10:46 PM
quote:
that you have to have the source of the light and the source of the sound from the same place.
Hein, it's not that we have to have it, it just makes everything a lot easier. I think you will find that everybody hunts this way, out here; not just me.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted December 03, 2008 08:05 AM
On the subject of skylining yourself, has anyone used marker lights on your rig to break up your outline? Years ago a couple of guys swore that the little red and yellow marker lights mounted on top of their rigs kept them from being seen.
Never tried it but always wondered how well it worked.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Q-Wagoner
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posted December 03, 2008 11:39 AM
Leonard I have heard that stated before that if you are hunting coyotes with a white light and they get light shy just switch to a red light and they will not be light shy any more. Just like the theory/practice that if you call to call shy coyotes with a rabbit in distress and make the survivors shy by using it, you can come back and call them right in with a bird or other sound.
My thought has been that the reason that filtered lights were so popular with callers is because they are filtered/dimmed rather than full intensity white light. Wrongly perhaps I just figured that most hunters draw the distinction to the color rather than the fact that the filters dim the light. Again I may be wrong with that assumption?
Red light is unique to other colors of light. As you know red light cannot or is very difficult to see from the side. To see the light you either need to see the source of the light or you need to see what the light is shining on. The darker the filter the more this is evident. This may be an advantage because if the animal can not see the light except only when it is on him it may in turn cause them to be less hesitant to respond? Red light does have its benefits but I am not sold on the fact that the benefits out weigh its drawbacks. That being range and quicker animal identification.
I have killed jackal and other predators under the red light in Africa with Hein and I have killed predators in TX and NE under a red light as well. When we made the switch to the white light our numbers shot up substantially. I would attribute this in part to just learning the ropes but also for the speed of identifying animals as well as the added range it offers. It is very convenient.
Another case for the white light and the way we hunt is because we use a chair we are on our own up there with no one assisting in the lighting department. The lights are scope mounted so we don’t have a quick option like you have with your system. It is like packing a shotgun and a rifle to a stand I guess. It is nice to have options but if you are comfortable with one rather than the other then that is what you should use.
I understand the concept behind what the Light Force rep is trying to say. It reverts back to the idea that if something stops working, use something different. Like sounds or different distances between stands or wind direction and so on.
My line of thinking is exactly the same. If something is not working then do something different. LOL This rings true for both day and night hunting. When I go to a different area out side of my back yard there is usually a learning curve that must be worked out. Take TX for instance. This year is our fourth year we have hunted down there and we have been modifying our equipment and techniques every single trip. Joel, Steve, Randy and I have had a lot of in-depth conversations about techniques and equipment that will improve our success rate. I will say with out a doubt that if it were not for guys like Hein, Steve and Joel our success would not be what it has been.
There is still several change ups we are planning to do and are excited to try them out on the next trip. We may not do things the same way that you do in California or how Hein does in Africa but in Texas I think we are on the right track for that area. Going off of the numbers that other hunters take in the same areas I think we are doing very well. Last trip we killed 77 coyotes 2 bobcats and some fox in 13 days. We could have easily shot many many more fox on that trip but they are of no value to us. Also we had to pass up 8 or 10 bobcats on one ranch because the owner requested that we leave the cats alone. That was hard let me tell you! LOL Had we employed a scorched earth policy we could have killed 100 predators in two weeks.
For me one of the best and most exciting challenges is to figure out how to hunt different areas the most effectively. I found out quickly that you can’t have the cookie cutter mentality when it comes to calling predators. One size doesn’t always fit all.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Nahuatl
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posted December 03, 2008 11:46 AM
For those of you who keep up with Hein, you might be interested to know that he is in a battle for his livelihood.
CapeNature, the nature conservation authority in the Western Cape, is campaigning to stop all night-hunting, trapping, spotlighting, and predator calling for jackals and caracals in RSA.
You can read Cape Nature's announcement in English at Hein's website, but their detailed position paper and Hein's response has not been translated yet from the native Afrikaans.
Hein's farmers union is meeting Thursday night to form a strategy to fight for their hunting privileges.
Still pissed from our own condor debacle all I can do is wish best of luck to Hein.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 03, 2008 12:35 PM
Yes, I know very little about the issues in ZA, but I know that his enemies are (for the most part) our enemies. I also know that they are relentless. I also know they know what is best for everybody. All these bunny huggers and liberals do not tolerate dissent; it's their way or the highway.
Quinton, I am casting no doubt on what you do and how you do it. I would enjoy getting you in a rig some weekend. You know, those high chairs can't go some of the places we do, and they are way too exposed in cold country. On the other hand, I know they work great in Texas, no argument.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Jaracal
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posted December 04, 2008 11:21 AM
quote:
For those of you who keep up with Hein, you might be interested to know that he is in a battle for his livelihood.
CapeNature, the nature conservation authority in the Western Cape, is campaigning to stop all night-hunting, trapping, spotlighting, and predator calling for jackals and caracals in RSA.
Thanks for the concern. Just to put the facts right. South Africa has 9 Provinces of which the Western Cape is one. It is the most liberal and the greenies are putting so much pressure on CapeNature because of the high numbers of predators that are killed that they try to ban all calling, spotlighting, dog hunting and trapping in that province. It's border is about three hours drive from me. I do not hunt there, but I try and give the ranchers some facts to fight with. The meeting was held today but we still need to see what the final outcome is. I live in the Freestate in the middle of South Africa and we do not have any sort of ban here and neither does the other provinces except Kwa-Zulu Natal. Some of our conservation guys are callers themselves and like to brag about the numbers too.
Good hunting Hein
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Bofire
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posted December 04, 2008 05:51 PM
I read in a news paper last week, maybe its true???
That in SA somewhere 79 farmers lost the farms they owned a while ago and they were given to other 'people'. I guess they went broke and a high court in SA gave the farms back to the original owners. I bet with some kind of big tax or something.
Do you know anything about this?
I am really enjoying reading about the hunting and other info. in this thread.
Carl
[ December 04, 2008, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Bofire ]
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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Jaracal
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posted December 04, 2008 08:16 PM
Hi Bofire
First I would like to explain some terminology. In South Africa there is no difference between a farmer and a rancher. Whether you grow wheat or have cattle you are a farmer. Now to your Question. The government bought every single piece of land that were taken from the original farmers/ranchers and given to “the other people”. The prices paid were inflated by one and a half to two times the actual/market value. Other countries gave most of the moneys for those projects to SA. Unfortunately most of those farms/ranches went bankrupt, to many chiefs and no ******* to do the work. Some of those farms were actually bought back by the original owners.
Politically we are moving into a new era. The ANC were ruling with a two third majority. The party fired our president (Thabo Mbeki from the Xhosa nation) and elected a new one (Jacob Zuma, from the Zulu nation, There were such an internal struggle that several high profile members of the ANC broke away and started a new party, COPE (congress of the people). We believe it will bring a strong opposition if not in the long run oust the ANC.
So I have high hopes for SA, and to be honest not everything that happened in SA over the past 15 years were bad. Our nabour to the north, Zimbabwe, are really going down the drain. Robert Mugabe does not give in and people are dying like flies. No water, no food, no gas nothing and it was one of the countries with the best dangerous game hunting available. To bad.
Hope to see you guys here someday. Big game are plentiful and predators thick.
LB, I shot two caracal the night before last, you need to come over before I kill them all. LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good hunting
Hein
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 05, 2008 12:31 AM
Yeah, Hein. You got me thinking. Maybe?
I know a little about what has been going on with the squatters and 24 hours, etc. I also was there when a Commando killed a black for stealing chickens, just down the road from Lochi's place. Those eight foot electric fences are some comfort. Boy, they sure like that "zinc" corregated steel roofing. Sure is too bad about Zimbabwai, I know some guys that canceled trips because of what's going on.
Hein, have you been to the states and have you hunted bobcat and coyote? I really felt that jackals were so much like coyotes, that I was calling them coyotes. Yeah, I'd sure like to take a nice tom caracal. I killed a fox, I think it was a cape fox? They are protected now?
Man, the worst part of hunting Africa is the plane ride. Two 10½ hour flights. Talk about Jet Lag!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Jaracal
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posted December 05, 2008 01:39 AM
LB
Yes I was there in '99 and 2000, called and shot some coyotes, much easier to kill than jackal because they are bigger ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) seriously! they are the same with the jackal, speaking Afrikaans and the coyote, American English. I saw one bobcat but could not get on him.
Yes, Cape Fox is now protected and how that one slipped through no one knows. We were so busy fighting to get jackal and caracal of the protected specie list that we did not focus on that one. Luckily they did not list the African wild cat.
quote:
Man, the worst part of hunting Africa is the plane ride. Two 10½ hour flights. Talk about Jet Lag!
You could take a boat, I think it only takes about a month to get here,
Really hope to see you here next year.
Good hunting
Hein
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Bofire
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posted December 05, 2008 01:49 PM
Thanks Jaracal, the best thing about the WEB is being able to talk, all over the world, to guys like you!!
Carl
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Jaracal
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posted December 08, 2008 02:41 PM
Hi Bofire
Yes it is nice talking to people with the same interest or mutual problems.
Quinton, The pressure you put me under!! Here is the reply I posted on PM.
In certain circumstances you need a light that can actually light up the target, especially call-shy or light shy animals over a long distance. I have found that jackals do get light shy even under a red light.
In the following video clip you can see two jackal coming to a call under the very dimmed white light. They were not further than 50 yards away.
http://s374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/jaracal/?action=view¤t=dimmer_429.flv
The female is the one that turned quickly when I turned up the light (light-shy) to shoot. I shot the male while he was still wondering why his mate departed so quickly. I did not see the female again till she hit the 400+ yards mark. There she gave me time enough to range a bush where she was running to (big mistake). I dialed in the numbers on the scope and by using a dimmer switch on a white light, turned up the intensity to full, and put the cross right on the body of the jackal that I could see through the scope. There is now way that you will be able to do that with a red light. I shot the female at 429 meters (472 yards).
http://s374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/jaracal/?action=view¤t=429_GPS.flv
The white light with a dimmer switch is the best of both worlds. You can dim the light intensity far lower than the red light but you have full white power at the turn of a knob or flick of a switch.
By hunting with a white light only, a lot of predators get frightened away. By hunting with a red light only, you loose a lot of predators that you cannot identify or make out the body over longer distances. The scopes you need to shoot over 200 yards with a red light are usually high priced with big objective lenses 50mm+ while the white light is a little more forgiving on the optics. All in all I think it takes a bit more skill to hunt with a white light and dimmer but it is far more effective than either red alone or white alone.
The following video demonstrates the correct way to use a dimmer.
http://s374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/jaracal/?action=view¤t=dim_x_2_tierplaas.flv
For those guys who start out or who's struggling to see with a red light you will be highly rewarded by trying out a white light fitted with a dimmer/rheostat
Good hunting
Hein
[ December 08, 2008, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Jaracal ]
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted December 08, 2008 03:52 PM
Hein, Great footage. What was the sound used in the long range shot? Was that a jackel distress, or jackel pup? Kinda curious on their vocalizations.
Maintain, Geordie
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Jaracal
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posted December 08, 2008 08:37 PM
Hi Geordie
It is a 'where are you" kind of jackal howl. I have stopped hundreds of jackal with that when the distress or khi-yai does not work.
Good hunting
Hein
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Jaracal
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posted December 18, 2008 10:16 AM
I am trying to load a video from photobucket without the link to show we do some daycalling as well is there a way it will show up on the board. Good hunting
Hein
http://s374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/jaracal/?action=view¤t=daycalling_double.flv
[ December 18, 2008, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Jaracal ]
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Leonard
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posted December 18, 2008 12:27 PM
I watched it via the link, if that's what you mean? I am always amazed at how much they act like coyotes! Probably not in every detail, of course, like the vocals, but in many ways, they do.
That sound you are using to stop them. What do you call it? We generally use a "woof".
Good hunting. LB
[ December 18, 2008, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Jaracal
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posted December 18, 2008 01:49 PM
LB
It is a sound in their vocalization that I would almost say is a challenge or hey you!, I am not to sure but has learned it from a friend about 8 years ago. Before that I whistled, but man you do not get your lips right to whistle if they come charging in. The HA_HA is very effective and I have not found too many that will not stop to that sound. I would say the behaviour of jackals and coyotes are identical, except like you say for the vocalization. But I think they will have the same kind of howls in their own language like a lone howl, territorial howl, where are you, agressive challenge, not to sure what you are, etc. kind of jackal/coyote talk.
Good Hunting
Hein
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
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posted December 18, 2008 05:23 PM
I really enjoyed those videos too. I noticed a great many similar sounds to the Prairie, lots of bird sounds, crickets, frogs only in greater numbers. Africa - WOW, I would just love to take a safari of any kind, shooting guns, cameras, or video. A beatiful place in my dreams... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jeff Thomason
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posted January 20, 2009 10:27 AM
Hey guys, been a while... Here is a Jackal from Namibia. Our dimmer switch got broken on the way over. But we managed to kill a few without it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT1SK20kB1A
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