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Author
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Topic: Eastern Coyotes
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 11, 2005 02:30 PM
Leonard, you're on your own, I'm dodging that bullet. Of course shooting proficiency has a lot to do with take ratios. On the club hunt this past weekend we called in 12 coyotes on Sat. and killed only two of them. It was the handgun hunt and we only took two shots. Sun we called in only two and killed 0. 16-18 stands per day, same techniques and style, lots of sign in both areas. Huge difference in response rates and I don't have a clue why. If this hadn't been a contest hunt I would have spent as much as an hour on stand and used coyote vocalizations only.
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 11, 2005 03:13 PM
quote:
It is very different than the typical western calling experience. You have too modify, tweak and be a little more creative than guys in the west.
Thanks for responding Gerald.
And no "in your face" offence taken here.
I never had the pleasure of attending one of your seminars. I'm not sure where I ever came up with "coyote 101" to be honest.
Not sure if those numbers qualify you for the school of hard knocks or not. But there is a ton of guys here in PA that would give there left nut to get that amount of responses in a year of hard coyote calling.
You have to remember, there is probably going to be about 5000 guys hitting the woods next week, and if memory serves me correct, past kills land between 30-50 coyotes for this contest. And this contest includes houndsmen along with callers. Not a good kill ratio with decent coyote populations.
But you hit the nail on the head with your comments I quoted above. That's the stuff the guys are looking for from a proffesional. They want to learn how to be creative by combining vocalizations and adding that along with a distress sounds. Someone needs to introduce them to the next level.
The problem is they are sick of hearing the same old "a coyote is a coyote" or "call crosswind" or call "for more than 30 mins" from a person who never hunted the area.
I hope you get chance to spend as much time as possible on the tweaks and modifications as you can with this seminar. Then I hope someday you get chance to hunt this state and come back and do another seminar. You'll pack the place.
I sure wish I could attend this one, but it's on the other end of the state. I would enjoy discussing the coyote behavior I have seen here in the northeast portion of our state. It's like nothing I've seen anywhere in the country.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 11, 2005 03:26 PM
Have all the fun with "you're better shots" you want Leonard. Fact is, here in PA at least, most shots don't exceed 50yds in the woods. You get the occasional long shot in a field,but not too often. Hell, after about 50 deer. I don't think I shot but one or two over 50yds. 30yds is about the average. You folks are just used to shooting longer distances than we are. Think you westerners even have a term for us easteners....."westernitus". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 11, 2005 03:48 PM
Just received this via E-mail.
.................................................
Eastern coyotes are smarter than Western coyotes. They get away with saying that time after time.
What if it has nothing to do with the coyotes at all?
Could it just be possible that Eastern inbreeding is the culprit here and Easterners just ain't nearly as smart as they think they are? This explains why they just don't know it.
I suppose we could counter that Western Callers are just smarter than Eastern Callers.
It's hard to argue against Westerners.
Westerners call in more coyotes.
Conclusion: They're smarter and better at calling.
Westerners make longer shots.
Conclusion: Their eyesight is much better.
Easterners can hear turkeys walking amongst the leaves.
Conclusion: Their ears are bigger.
Easterners don't call in nearly as many coyotes as Westerners.
Conclusion: They have never learned to use a JS PC3 or they cannot afford a WT.
Easterners think their problem is that they are sick of hearing the same old "a coyote is a coyote" or "call crosswind" or call "for more than 30 mins" from a person who never hunted the area.
Conclusion: if they spent less time sniveling and more time calling they would see more coyotes.
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Yellerdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 356
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posted February 11, 2005 04:13 PM
Okay Rich,
I haven't read this whole thread yet, I will later. Right now I'm going to blow your last arguement out of the water though.
Which side of the country does Krusty live in? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Lee Smith
Remember, we meet at dawn.
Posts: 59 | From: Southeastern Michigan | Registered: Jul 2004
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 11, 2005 04:26 PM
LMAO!!!
I like that one Rich
'Cept there should be one concerning arrogence.
Conclusion?????
[ February 11, 2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted February 11, 2005 04:32 PM
LMAO
We dont recieve sheep awards either!
Sorry, Couldnt help it! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted February 11, 2005 04:48 PM
If you go East towards Maine and keep going, you'll end up in Washington.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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bearmanric
Knows what it's all about
Member # 223
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posted February 11, 2005 04:52 PM
i live here in washington. there's coyote's to be had. sure it's hard but it can be done. i'm taking a newbie tomorrow he's from seattle he's been trying for two year's with no luck. should be fun. Rick
Posts: 78 | From: Tenino Wash. | Registered: Jul 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted February 11, 2005 05:02 PM
That isnt even fair Jay!
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 11, 2005 05:03 PM
Jay, those conclusions are similiar to the scientist that kept yelling at a frog to JUMP! and then cutting off one leg after the other. When he had cut the last leg off, and yelled JUMP! and the frog didn't move; his conclusion was that the danged frog became deaf!
OOPS, didn't mean to let slip who (probably) sent that email to Higgins.
Good hunting. LB
edit: and don't be taking shots at poor old Krusty while he's having technical problems and can't respond.
[ February 11, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31546 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted February 11, 2005 05:31 PM
Gerald, I'm sorry I had to "meet" you as it is, at a time when hard feelings are hanging in the air. But, seeing your name at the head of some posts made my whole month! I look up to you for what you've done and how well you've done it. When I was just starting calling in the late 70's and early 80's I read your stories in the T&PC I believe. Great stuff. Thank You. Loren Coffin.
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 11, 2005 05:47 PM
DDDDDamn, Yellerdog, that was unusual cruelty! I'm wounded to the core.
I checked back to see what chaos my ghostwriter wrought and I'm delighted everyone has such a great sense of humor.
Hodgen, what a great question. Everyone knows that arrogance turns to hubris when it crosses the big river, just gotta figure out which direction.lol
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 11, 2005 05:48 PM
don't feel bad, doggitter, we're all thrilled!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31546 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted February 11, 2005 05:50 PM
Yeah Yellerdog, but he's on the eastern side of the Pacific! LOL
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted February 11, 2005 05:52 PM
Leonard. I think Higgins got those bits of knowledge from and old Indiun Chief from the P:A:P:A:G:O Reverberation.
[ February 11, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted February 11, 2005 05:54 PM
Yeah Leonard, but it's just god damned COOL!
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 11, 2005 07:52 PM
Jay, behave or management may be forced to take away your vowels, again. Besides, your denial is not convincing.
Doggitter, I couldn't agree more.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31546 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Yellerdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 356
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posted February 11, 2005 08:16 PM
Alright then Leonard, I wasn’t aware of the technical difficulty. But, you gotta admit it was funny!
Doggitter, "Yeah Yellerdog, but he's on the eastern side of the Pacific!"
So are you! I guess we're in the same boat.
Now, back to the topic.
As far as the lack of success for eastern callers, I believe much of it has to do with inexperience and poor techniques. The coyote simply has not been hunted for nearly as long in most of the east. In my area of Michigan they just started to appear about 15 years ago. The numbers were still low for a few years after that. In the last 5-6 years the population has really exploded.
So, you take your average eastern caller who has been at it for 3 or 4 years and only really seriously tried for maybe two of those. They try to learn from other “Experienced hunters” who have not been at it much longer. Then the newer guys are trying to learn from somebody with a year or two at it. What you have is the blind leading the blind most of the time. I hear people giving advice to others all the time that is just utter nonsense. Even most of the seminars put on are by people who I doubt have killed more than a couple coyotes. There are exceptions of course, like when Gerald Stewart does them. Those, unfortunately are few and far between.
It is probably true that the eastern coyotes are smarter. They certainly get a fine education from all the new hunters with their fine training by people who have absolutely no business giving advice in the first place.
I personally don’t think it is that hard to call in an eastern coyote. I used to believe it was. That was because I had no idea what I was doing. When I did call them in I seldom had a good shot, due to poor setup. But, I’m not one to give up on things. With a lot of hard work and remembering what I did wrong each time I did call one in I got better at it. Now when I hunt it’s on average one dead coyote per 5 setups. Sometimes I hunt alone and sometimes it’s with a partner, usually Skinner 2. When I hunt with him we average one killed in 4-5 setups. I think that as time goes on and the eastern callers gain more experience, some of the myths about how much smarter the eastern coyote is will disappear and everyone will be more effective. It’s just a matter of better training by people with some knowledge. That is a major advantage a western caller has, he can learn from someone who knows what he’s talking about.
My methods as well as Skinner 2’s vary a bit from Kee’s, but I think our terrain is a bit different.
We setup to call them into the open. Usually a pasture or a field. While they don’t generally cross great open distances to come to the call, I don’t find it any problem to pull them into the open in the southern Michigan farmlands. They have to cross open fields all the time to travel and I don’t think it’s worth sitting in the thickets, where the chance of a clean shot is minimal. I kill about 90 percent of the coyotes I see. That’s probably not going to happen in the woods. I’m not knocking those who hunt that way. Just telling what works for me.
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Lee Smith
Remember, we meet at dawn.
Posts: 59 | From: Southeastern Michigan | Registered: Jul 2004
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Alaskan Yoter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 169
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posted February 11, 2005 09:01 PM
"Try hunting here with Krusty"
Posts: 235 | From: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: Mar 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 11, 2005 10:02 PM
quote:
try to learn from other “Experienced hunters” who have not been at it much longer. Then the newer guys are trying to learn from somebody with a year or two at it. What you have is the blind leading the blind most of the time. I hear people giving advice to others all the time that is just utter nonsense
Don't sugarcoat it, yellerdog. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Maybe you can get away with it, since you are almost barely an easterner? I forget, is Michigan midwest or east? My geography east of Colorado is a bit hazy.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31546 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted February 12, 2005 04:03 AM
Hogden, You make a good arguement. Let me throw out some more food for thought. I have been curious as to why I have not been able to glean useful additional information from videos produced in the east by guys who hunt in the east. Why hasn't anybody ever revealed their smoking gun Eastern secrets to anybody else in the east?
I have listened very closely over the years to customers who have related their successes to me about their hunting in the east. Example: Right before the Tunkhannock seminar I got an email from a guy in Maine that related his sucess to me and I picked up on 4 points that I think make him successful where others may fail.He stated that he (1)does a great deal of scouting and (2)has some large number of tree stands out which he calls from. (3)He mixes coyote and distress sounds at each stand and (4)He sits for at least 30 minutes on each stand.
I have suggested much of those things in my seminars for years. I will now hammer them home in every seminar I do east or west. Scout, scout and then scout some more. Elevate, combine sounds, and be patient.
I wish I had more time to respond right now but I will try to get back before too long. I have to go screen in my mothers front porch today and I look forward to your perspective.
[ February 12, 2005, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 12, 2005 05:11 AM
Gerald,
I am not sure there is any smoking gun eastern secrets. If there were, there would be at least a few guys stacking up coyotes like cord wood.
I belong to a state predator club (PPHA) and I get to talk with some of the best die-hard callers in the state. Some of them stack up plenty of fox, raccoon, and call up a few bobcat in a years time. So they have a pretty fair idea of calling techniques. But ask them about coyotes called, you hear numbers like 5 or so a year. One would think after stacking up 50+ fox you'd have to pull more coyote by accident. And it's not that the coyotes are not there. You have plenty of sign, also the houndsmen and trappers are stacking up quite a few.
Only people I know of who are consistantly taking coyotes around my area are not calling them. Some are just accidental encounters. Driving woodlots and shooting them as they run, or patterning them and cutting off their travel roots. I just talked to a guy last night who last weekend his group took 7. But they drove them to the gun.
It's almost as if you can't illicit the predator/prey response out of these things. Most the responses I get here I account to social behavior because I mix in some barks, yelps, and the occasional howl with my distress calling. But I end up looking like the pied piper juggling 3 calls at once. But that combination is a killer out west.
One thing you may want to take into consideration for your seminar is property access. We don't have the huge open huntable lands as other states. We have alot of open land, but it's fragmented. Western PA has bigger parcels, but you're mainly trying to call the coyote into an area you can shoot him.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yellerdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 356
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posted February 12, 2005 05:48 AM
Hodgen,
I would say we are more Midwest here in Michigan. The western guys call us easterner though. East of the Mississippi I guess.
I am very familiar with Pennsylvania. I was born there and spent a lot of time there growing up. Much of the state would present different circumstance for calling coyotes than than southern Michigan. I was telling what works for me.
Gerald,
We can't hunt from treestands for predators in Michigan. Another stupid law by uninformed lawmakers.
I agree with the other three statements 100 percent. It pays to stay on stand for 45 minute on occasion. The last three we called in were right near the 30 minute mark. Those were taken in January, using a lot of howling mixed with some distress.
In this farmland terrian I hunt I think it is also very important to have access to a lot of properties. Most of the parcels I hunt are 50 - 250 acres. I have a lot of them and will only hunt ones where the wind is in my favor on that particular day. Most hunters around my area have 2 or 3 places to hunt and they over hunt them, They then wonder why they can't call them in.
I think success is proportional to the amount of work one is willing to put in scouting and seeking access to land. I hunt only private land and I spend quite a bit of time talking to the owners and secure that access. Most of the new guys are simply to lazy to do that. More suger coating, Hodgen.
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Lee Smith
Remember, we meet at dawn.
Posts: 59 | From: Southeastern Michigan | Registered: Jul 2004
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222
Knows what it's all about
Member # 567
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posted February 12, 2005 06:42 AM
I can attest to what Hodgen is saying. I have been at this sport for a few years and in that time frame, I have made hundreds of stands. I only know of one occasion in which I had called in a coyote. I can count on one hand how many times I had had vocal responce to my calling.
Based on my experience, the bottom line is if they are in the area, they will respond in some fashion. The key is finding where they are and the only way to do that is spend large amounts of time in the woods.
Another reason for the difference in success is the style of hunting. Most Pa hunters are night hunters. Like hodgen said, the "kill" area is 50 yrds and less. We do not have the ability to see a set of eyes comming from hundreds of yrds away. Ususlly it is a split second encounter and buy the time you realize it, it is over.
Posts: 10 | From: Pa | Registered: Feb 2005
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