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Author
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Topic: Howling as a long range communication
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 23, 2005 12:18 PM
Leonard, stable conditions among stable populations.
BTW, resident coyotes are those that live within a defined area and protect it from intruders for the express purpose of breeding and perpetuating the species. All members of that group, the breeding pair, the "tenders", betas that are usually adults from previous litters, sometimes siblings, and occasionally a transient that is recruited because assets are attractive and contested, are residents. As opposed to non-territorial coyotes that are called nomads or transients. In unusual conditions in which resources are unlimited, coyotes don't bother to establish and defend territories.
Under some conditions groups cannot defend assets. Under some conditions they may not even try.
Three years ago when the 11 year drought was at it's worse, Jim Wegge, who was the AZF&G enforcement officer for Unit 20 told me he had found 6 active dens in an earthen canal bank along a one mile stretch. I asked him how in the hell did the coyotes sort out their territorial issues under those conditions. He replied that apparently coyotes are more tolerant of the presence of other coyotes during times of climatic stress.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 23, 2005 12:22 PM
Curt, you got to get it right.
"How smart can it be? It's just a mangy lo' dog."
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted July 23, 2005 12:33 PM
Rich, "They combined the coyotes into one enclosure and immediately NONE of the coyotes would eat sheep meat.", any idea if the enclosure was new to both groups or the same "home" one group had been using?
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 23, 2005 12:49 PM
quote:
In unusual conditions in which resources are unlimited, coyotes don't bother to establish and defend territories.
quote:
apparently coyotes are more tolerant of the presence of other coyotes during times of climatic stress.
I think that pretty well sums up my thoughts on the matter.
Another oldie, but goodie; by Murray Burnham: "Sometimes this shit don't work"
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted July 23, 2005 01:44 PM
Some of you guys continue to talk about "Beta's" last yrs pups. Staying on in the "Alpha pairs" territory to help raise this yrs pups. I find this interesting.
Of all the winters, I've hunted. What occurs around my area's is. A pair & their pups [family pack]...[Alpha's & their off-spring]. The Alpha's run their yearling pups off in the late fall.
Then "generally" around [mid-Janauary] is when groups [non-paired] will gather again, [forming nomadic packs]. To start pairing up.
Personally, I've never seen...Nor have I ever heard from a farmer. About seeing a [pack] from December to mid January.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 23, 2005 01:53 PM
I once had a cowboy give me some pretty good advice. "The coyote can't think like we do.......he just thinks he can."
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 23, 2005 02:46 PM
Doggitter, they moved the two groups from their kennels into a large enclosure.
2dogs, you just aren’t seeing them together. Mating season begins around Dec. 1 and is the season of greatest sociality and aggression among coyotes. The pups are self-sufficient and parental bonds have relaxed and the breeding adults are expanding and marking their territorial boundaries. The alpha male has been observed urinating an average of once every two minutes during this stage. The breeding female often accompanies the male on these patrols because the process is instrumental in establishing a strong bond between the breeding pair. They do assemble most evenings and perform the greetings because it is necessary to reaffirm social ties and status. They do not have to hunt or roam together. It just isn’t usually necessary.
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted July 23, 2005 03:54 PM
Rich,
Sounds logical, I can buy into that. Good explanation.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted July 23, 2005 05:58 PM
Rich Higgins,
I ain't so tough, but I got mean and ornery from hanging around coyotes so much. Your Uncle Jay was raised in a coyote den, which is part of the reason he is so ugly. I am feeling better now than I did before the surgery, but still not ready for foot races.
You are right about those coyote studies being interesting. A man just can never learn TOO much about coyotes.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted July 23, 2005 06:30 PM
2dogs,this past winter-Dec.,Jan.,and Feb.we hunted a pack of 5 coyotes.We took out one and the other 4 stayed together the rest of the winter.So what goes on here?I don't think they always split up during the breeding period'at least from what i have seen on more than one occasion.More often than not i will see the tracks of a pair of coyotes during breeding season,'yet on occasion i do come upon the tracks of 3 or more running together.You might say these weren't breeding coyotes,but when a female coyote squats and'pee'and there is'pee' and blood mixed',i would guess they were breeding?
Leonard,i liked your post and view on territorial coyotes.you're personal observations and experience over the years can't all be wrong.I agree with what you had to say one hundred percent.I think things would have been different with Dr.Jaegers studies,if the factors came into play like you stated,blizzards,droughts,food,water and others.I'm guessing his studies were based on normal conditions.I'm also guessing that when food,water and weather is good,coyotes would more than likely have there own territory staked out?
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted July 23, 2005 08:17 PM
Interesting Melvin. I have given Rich's response more thought.
I mostly hunt snow cover. Which generally runs from After the first wk of December-to mid to late March. What still puzzles me...thinking back. I can't remember a time, when I've came across [more] than a "pair" of tracks. Except around the middle of Janauary on.
Now going back to this scenario of the [Aplha pair] staying alone, until the yearlings are called back at night, or for whatever/whenever reason.
I should've came across groups of tracks, instead of a single or a pair.
When I spot a coyote or a pair of them [as long as their not moving]. I'll drive around the mile section, looking for other coyotes as well, as seeing where [they, the ones I just spotted] went into this section.
The scenario of what Rich, spoke of. I should've ran across group tracks, before mid-Janauary. Now...I'm wondering, why I haven't.
I work a 24hr shift, then I'm off for 48hrs. I spend just about every one of my off days hunting coyote in the snow. From a skiff of snow, to heavy snow. I've never, that I can recall. Seen group tracks, until around mid-Jan.
These coyotes around here, like to run; fencelines + farm driveways, creeks, valleys/sloughs & ridgelines.
Along with spotting, I'm constantly looking for tracks. I've never kept a ledger. I'm going to start this winter. The quest continues...
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted July 24, 2005 08:02 AM
LOL! Rich, that does sound more accurate. I suck at remembering quotes.
Kokopelli, that's a good quote too. I like that. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted July 24, 2005 03:17 PM
Let me throw something out that may or may not contribute to the discussion. We have a recording in our library that Dad did in Yellowstone back in the early 70's that is a group of coyotes that have detected his presence and are giving him hell with what I would call a warning\threat chorus of vocalizations.
We never used the sound as a published one but I have put it out in the past as a test tape to see if it would generate any response from other coyotes. The recording started out as single dog fussing at Dad and eventually grew to at least 4 total. These very well could have been and probably were from the same family group...maybe?
It is one of the clearest recordings with great gain due to the proxiemity of the dogs to Dads position. I just never developed a feel for the sound being one that would attract other coyotes. I could not even get others to simply respond vocally to it so it stayed in the can.....except for two occasions where I let others use it for a web site sound and background audio for a gallery display(in Arizona).
About a year or so ago I had HS purchase a competitors unit in my continual search for copyright infringment. I heard a sound on the unit that was strongly familiar but I could not match it to my recording. It was very frustrating because I knew in my heart it was ours. I recently was searching for sounds through the FindSounds site and came across another Parks and Wildlife site that had a kids page with coyote sounds linked to the Original site I had loaned the sound to. That is when the light went on in my head remembering the request and my agreement to let them have the sound.
I went to the site and downloaded the sound and it matched the competitors file exactly. I now realize that I evidently had done some editing of the sound to provide it to the site in the length of time they had requested. That would explain why I could not get it to match the original loop.
I said all of that to say this. Since the time that I sampled the competitors unit I have seen others mention on various boards,the sound by the competitors name stating that the sound has worked well for them on the competitors unit. Maybe we did not test it well enough initially.
Maybe coyotes can summon other coyotes with that threat\warning vocalization if they believe that the percieved threat is greater than the intrusion of other coyotes into their territory. What do you think?
[ July 24, 2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted July 24, 2005 04:07 PM
Gerald and all,
Most of you know that most of my calling is done on family groups in the summer using decoy dogs, so I get every major threat reaction possible. Barking, threat howls for long time periods and some unique sounds and my opinion is that it only seems to affect that particular family group. I have never had another coyote answer or respond to those sounds. But if you are near the den, and only one parent is there (usually the female) when you get her fired up you can bet it won't be long until papa and anyone else tied to that particular den shows up. As far as a warning to others, it doesn't seem to affect them too much. I have had all the carrying on at one den site including rifle shots and moved to another den site that was well withing hearing and they really didn't have much of any reaction until it was their doorstep you were standing on. They don't seem to care much until their boundy lines are crossed. Same with being too far off of a den site. They might pop up and look things over, but don't really care about challenges and warning barks until you cross that magical invisible line. Then depending on the time of year and how big the pups are it is either fight or flight. I have worked two bunches in the last two days that the old dog will blast by and fuzz my dogs a little and take them one way, while everybody else hauls ass the other. It's that time of year, the pups are big enough and mobile enough that they just leave given the opportunity.
[ July 24, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 24, 2005 05:59 PM
Gerald, the challenge howl is probably the most mis-used of all vocalizations because of it's narrow purpose.
Coyote vocalizations are a graded continuum and the warning bark and threat howl are at the end of the list as the most intense. If you will regard the warning bark as a warning to stay away and not approach closer then you can consider the threat howl to be a demand that you leave immediately.
Biologists catagorize it as an agonistic vocalization but in reality it is interspecific in use. They will light up at any intruder within their core territory that they feel threatened by regardless of it's species.
I have a lot of video of coyotes displaying in front of me with the threat bark howls at all times of the year. The only criteria seems to be that I be within their defended core territory and let them elevate the intensity to that level. Unlike Cal's experience I rarely have the whole family join in the display. It is usually the male or the female doing the threatening while the others remain at a distance or out of sight.
I have video of at least three separate coyotes on different occasions remaining in front of me for several minutes while I tweak them a little with different sights and sounds and scents. They seem to be highly interested if not actually entertained. One of them laid down in the shade a hundred yards or so away and watched as two other coyotes reacted to all the commotion. Finally after several minutes I blew a threat howl, which is essentially a demand that they leave now, and since we were not within their defended territory, they left. As much as 60% of the population is transient at certain times of the year and ALL transients would leave if you so demanded. The only coyotes that would be compelled to approach that vocalization would be resident coyotes within their core territory. And even them Kathleen Fullmers research showed that often times they will reposition themselves within their core areas where they feel more secure before responding with an approach. Which means that they may take a longer time to work themselves into an approach than you allot to the stand. The actions of the Lamar Valley coyotes to the wolf reintroduction comes to mind.
Cal is right also in that the closer you are to the den during denning and pup rearing seasons the more intense the reaction. Vern Dorn was asked how close he liked to be to the den when calling and he responded that he wanted both feet in the hole.
The vocalization is highly effective within a very narrow window. But it also has the potential to have the opposite effect that you want if conditions are not just right.
[ July 24, 2005, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted July 24, 2005 07:38 PM
Good info guys. That probably explains both my experience with those sounds as well as the fellas that claim the sound "works for them". They just probably happened to be in the right place at the right time. Useful in a very narrow window of circumstance.
I can not bring myself to put that sound in the line because it would not be useful to the majority most of the time. The company that is using it even labels it with a title that is not even close to what it really is. They will be getting a contact from us in the near future.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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