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Topic: The New Huntmastersbbs!2: Locator vs. Interrogation howl
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 03, 2005 03:13 PM
Dennis,
I guess I ought to qualify my statement about no responses. Sitting here reminsiscing over the past four years of calling, I can recall four instances where I rece'ved a vocal reply back to lone howls. All four instances were territorial challenges with only one resulting in an approach, but no closer than about 400 yards. In the vast majority of cases for me, the lone howl has elicited a response, and when they've come in, it has generally been with head down at a lope moving toward my downwind. In that sense, Wiley's statement is spot on. I wonder in what way territorial boundary lines effect the probability that a coyote will respond verbally versus approach? If you're in their house, they probably check you out. If you're over the line, they maybe answer you. We'll have to have Higgins ask them. :)I can honestly say that the coyotes around here are very tight lipped and will rarely answer back any type of call, i.e., sirens, train whistles, etc.. In fact, I've never heard one sound off in the broad daylight. On the other hand, I watched someone else use what was really nothing more than a lone howl on the high plains of eastern Colorado one night and after about fifteen minutes, the entire countryside lit up. I think the response rates are a function of local circumstances and don't doubt for a minute that you've had good luck in your area. In mine? I haven't heard it produce results enough for me to place any level of confidence in lone howls as locators.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 03, 2005 04:20 PM
Dennis, my experiences with vocal responses to lone howls are in line with yours. I generally don't chime in on these threads, in keeping with my policy of preferring not to show my ignorance. Better to be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, and all that. But, it really blows my mind to hear so many experienced howlers reporting such a dearth of vocal response to the lone howl. Because, I get vocal responses to my lone howls "most" of the time? By that I mean, if I issue a lone howl in an area I know to hold coyotes, anytime from dusk till shortly after dawn, I fully expect not only to get a vocal response, but to get multiple responses. It happens I'd say more than 60% of the time.
Lance, what you described above: "On the other hand, I watched someone else use what was really nothing more than a lone howl on the high plains of eastern Colorado one night and after about fifteen minutes, the entire countryside lit up." This is what I consider normal, based on my own experiences.
That said... The group yip howl recording on my Foxpro works even better.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 03, 2005 04:32 PM
DAA-
If that's normal for you, you're a lucky guy. For me, it was an exciting experience to have them engaged like that. You just don't get that around here. I've tried many nights in good coyote country.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted November 03, 2005 04:35 PM
Rich H. , you wrote that the lost pup howl is a high pitched plaintive, or lonely howl with an upnote at the end. Am I to assume that it is somewhat shorter in length since it is a puppy howl? Are you using more than one to start off a stand. What do you normally follow this up with, assuming that you have to make a follow up call? Todd.
Scruffy, welcome to the board. If you hang around here long enough you will gain some insight.
I have had good luck yip howling with the two mouthpieces from the Primos Lil' Dog howler. That is not the truest sounding howler in the world, like say a good cow horn howler, but it is easy to blow. I stick both mouthpiecs in my mouth at once and yiyiyi on one while the other goes wooooo woooooooo. It seems to work. that is the way I work without the help of electronics or another hunter, since I nearly always hunt alone. My wife says every time I do that it reises the hairs on the back of her neck.
[ November 03, 2005, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 03, 2005 05:46 PM
The thing about a lone howl, if you get a vocal response, more power to you, but to think you can use it as a locator, instead of a locator type howl, that is where I disagree. A coyote will come to the lone howl. If that's what you want, fine. But, if you are just jacking around, too dark to see or have no plans to kill the animal; maybe you are educating them unnecessarily?
I'd rather use a hand howler as a hunting tool and like DAA said, the locator howling sound on a Foxpro is better for the purpose and they (probably) won't be disturbed enough to converge on your location. It's all about intent.
Man! These things are very specific, but difficult to define and get on the same page!
I think there might be a real good educational seminar next week, somewhere down in AZ for anyone in the neighborhood.
Good hunting. LB
[ November 03, 2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted November 03, 2005 05:57 PM
I find it interesting how coyotes in differant parts of the country respond/ or don't respond during daylight! Around my stomping grounds, it's a common accurance for coyotes to be heard howling at 10 a.m., as well as 3 or 4 p.m.!
One tactic that I have learned over the last couple of years that seems to work very well, is what I call a female invitation, like a lonesome high pitched howl, but cut short. I use this howl at the brginning of a set primarily in Feb., and have often gotten a single male to respond. And every time I get a vocal, always a single howl too, I have called in a single male coyote! I've had them respond vocally at all times of the day like this!
Also, I don't see/hear anyone talking about the, from a lack of a better term, breeding yips that I have witnessed, also seen on a Randy A. video. This is another sound that I have had good results with late season! It's just a series of high pitched fading yips. Anyone else use this sound?
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted November 03, 2005 06:05 PM
Thanks Dave, I needed that. I was real close to calling BS on that one and I still might do it. Coyotes can and will respond big time to what I call "Lone Howls".
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted November 03, 2005 06:39 PM
Maybe instead of names or labels for the "different" howls we should be expressing ourselves in syllibles??? The guys selling things aren't here, yet...
Like sharp bark, sharp bark, loooooong howl... done in a high pitched manner... or is it just a long hoooowl, done in a sharp high pitched manner???? Start softly, build in the middle, taper off in the middle?
All of the names make my head spin. I see some great callers saying it's not that tuff, and I'd never argue with that ... but what do I know about howling??????
Methinks that there are one or two basic sounds that will do the trick....???? Some would have us believe that there is much more to it than that?
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 03, 2005 06:46 PM
Dennis, you can call BS anytime it suits you, this howling is real hard to nail down.
You are aware that some people report that their coyotes are completely silent, with or without prompting?
I'd like to know what your intentions are when you do your "lone howl"? Are you hunting or are you locating or don't you see the distinction?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 03, 2005 06:55 PM
Dennis, I don't follow you. What or who are you calling BS and why?
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Rich Higgins
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posted November 03, 2005 07:05 PM
Dave, the last thing anyone is ever going to call you is stupid. I wish you would join in more often, you have so much to contribute. Lets discuss your technique and lone howls for example, I'll bet we can learn something by looking at them.
First would you describe the lone howl that you get frequent vocal responses to. Do you precede it with herald barks? Does it rise sharply and end abruptly?
Do you have an idea why coyotes would respond vocally to it?
Dennis I would like to ask you the same questions if you get the chip off your shoulder. No one is doubting you. We're discussing coyotes for heaven's sake.
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted November 03, 2005 07:34 PM
Perhaps I've already told this huntin jaunt story.
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Winter/snowfly pre-dusk;
Spotted a coyote 1/2 mile away. I stopped to glass him & the surrounding terrain over well. [I planned on stalking in].
Cruised slowly up the road, he's balled-up/head raised eyeing me. Laying 200yrds staight East of the North/South road I was on. I drove on past him.
I parked a 1/4 mile down past him on the roadway. I slowly walked back down the road[which was snow covered, but loud]. As I'm getting near, he gets up. Walks slowly farther into the section a little ways. Sits down & does the following.
Bark...Bark...Ut,ERRRRrrrr,ERT! He can't see me. I'm all White head to toe[including my rifle & sling]. I'm completely out in the open, he's across a wide shallow valley on the opposing hillside. So he could obviously hear me.
I just happen to have a "mouse-squeeker" in my breast pocket. So I pull it out slowly & mimmick his same vocals, useing the squeeker.
He continues to respond exactly the same. We exchange this same scenario. Back & forth for quite awhile.
His barks sounded exactly like a [Fox Terrier] & his howl sounded exactly like an old rooster chicken crowing.
I figured he was challenging me. What say you all?
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 03, 2005 08:32 PM
Rich, I'll give my best shot at answering your questions.
Q. First would you describe the lone howl that you get frequent vocal responses to. Do you precede it with herald barks?
A. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I actually used to use the herald barks a lot more often than I do now, largely due to advice from you and Wiley about not wanting to sound aggressive. I honestly can't say whether it makes a difference in how often I get a vocal response. It probably does, but I've not been attentive enough to take note.
Q. Does it rise sharply and end abruptly?
A. No. I try to make them sound just as you describe a lone howl earlier in this thread. Slow rise, slow taper off.
Q. Do you have an idea why coyotes would respond vocally to it?
A. No, not really. All I have is guesses. I've gotten all different kinds of responses, from threat barks to group yip howls (the most common). My guess is that the different responses simply reflect different circumstances and times of year or day. The most common scenario where I get a response, is to issue a lone howl after dark in an area I know has a lot of coyotes, and I'll get a group yip howl in response. Sometimes, the kind of response Lance described earlier. With first one group yip howl, and then all the neighboring groups responding to that group. Once I do get a group yip howl response, I'll often start throwing aggressive threat bark howls back and that sometimes shuts them up but other times gets them whipped into a frenzy. That's when it's most likely that the neighboring groups will join in too. As bad as my hearing is, I often wonder if there isn't a chain reaction going on for miles and miles, with groups joining in way beyond my hearing. At least occasionally, I bet that does happen. Almost anytime I have someone else with me, they will hear coyotes howling that I can't hear, too (my hearing really IS BAD). Bottom line, my best guess as to why they respond? Because there are a lot of them there, and they are pretty darn vocal in general, and it just doesn't take much to get them going.
Leonard has brought up what are the circumstances, or intentions when these howls are going on. For me, most of the time, this is purely for my entertainment. It's usually after dark and I just want to see if I can get a bunch of coyotes to howl for shits and grins. The areas I hunt, I know darn well there are coyotes there that will hear me, and like Leonard I don't expect them to still be in the same place the next morning, so I'm not really locating per se. Just having fun with the coyotes. Although, there have also been plenty of times in unfamiliar areas that I really am curious to see how many responses I will (or will not) get.
Daytime, howling on a stand, vocal responses are a lot less common, but do still happen, not often enough to call it common, but enough that I don't consider it all that unusual either. I'm talking about a vocal response to a lone howl in the middle of the day now. Those responses are just like the howls I occasionally get in the middle of the day while using only distress sounds. Those times I do get a response while on stand like that, those coyotes come in most of the time. And just to clarify, I'm not talking about the alarm howl that you hear during the day, but responding single yip howls or a more aggressive howl, short of the alarm howl.
Really, I have no answers. Like I said earlier, every time this subject comes up, it just amazes me how totally different my experiences have been compared to what most of you guys are reporting. Just like Dennis said, I started out howling just not knowing any other howl, or knowing any better, and the coyotes answered, and I never thought this might be unusual.
And, I should point out again, that for the last year or so, I've been using the group yip howl on my Foxpro much more than howling myself. It does get responses more often, no doubt about it.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 03, 2005 08:40 PM
Slight side track, but I'm curious...
The kind of scenario that Lance first described, with multiple groups doing group yip howls at once. How often do you guys get that in the morning while using just distress sounds? There are a couple of places I call, where early in the year you can almost count on that happening on the first stand in the morning, and some days for the first two or three stands.
Considering how easy it is to get a whole valley lit up like that with just a few rabbit screams, it really doesn't seem all that remarkable that they'd react in a similar fashion to a strange, albeit "lone" howl?
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 03, 2005 09:54 PM
DAA, unsolicited yip-howls are generally the culmination of a greeting ceremony. When it is issued other packs that have assembled respond by joining in. For a wave of howling from pack to pack "all the way to the ocean", as Major Boddiker imagined it, to occur all of the packs would have to have assembled. That usually occurs sometime before dawn and right after dusk which is why it is more common to hear those vocalizations at that time.
Two years ago I set up before light and waited until I could barely see through the camera before howling with a Lohman proto-type that varmit hunter designed for them, at which two packs ,south and west, began yip-howling. I dinked with them for about 30 minutes or so, when a mature coyote broadcast an assembly howl only about 100 yards away in a wash to the east. A coyote that was 50 or so yards away that I had been tapeing stood up, stretched and yawned, then trotted toward the howl. After another 10 minutes or so tha pack began their greeting ceremony and I taped the whole thing all the way to the shreiking that sounded for all the world like a canine distress. It was actually highly excited yips and squeals. That pack remained together for an hour or so before moving off. I gave the tape to Tad Brown at Lohman and he used some of it for the instructional tape that comes with their "SHE HOWLER". I wish I had copied all of it and kept it. The point is that when you get an answer to your howls it doesn't mean all of the coyotes in the area are answering. It does mean that you may continue to get a response in that area as much as two hours later. As I've stated elsewhere I hear them assemble and yip-howl at all hours of the night. The dogs and I howl from the back patio fairly frequently and very rarely ever get an immediate vocal response. But sometime during the next few hours the coyotes will show up at the back wall and begin their yip-howling.
Leonard visited me last year about this time and as we admired his new truck in my driveway, about 4 pm., I used his howler to blow a lone howl. Within only a minute or so a coyote walked across the dirt road 150 yards or so south of the house heading into the desert to get downwind. It moved silently, which is normal. No vocal response.
TRhat's what I expect from a lone howl.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 03, 2005 11:29 PM
Yes, I remember that. Done on my very expensive and exquisite Higgins Howler, I was surprised Rich didn't have his on him?
I'm sure the coyote knew we were there, but he managed to act nonplussed, as did I. The Professor was "amped" though.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted November 03, 2005 11:33 PM
I will haft to agree that a when I use a lonehowl, I expect a responce from the coyotes. Not very often do I get a vocal responce, but more for them to slip into the call (most of the time headed down wind)But not always. And from time to time I will get a vocal responce. Down in western Ky, I get alot of vocal responces from coyotes at all times of the day. I have alot of footage of howling with coyotes at noon. Here were Im at in Ohio,a vocal responce to a lonehowl just dont happen very often. But thats ok I set up for this.
I did notice that out in Az last year, vocal responce was fairly common to a lone howl or a couple puppy howls. And sometimes not.
Me and Tyler had a coyote come into howling that was very shy, not down wind but just real layed back, smelling the ground, not real exited, we shot some nice video of this before I droped him with the 22-250. And he never even tryed to get down wind at all.
The coyotes around the house wont howl at much at all anymore, I have worn them out I gess, the only time the tend to howl is when I hear the assembly howl, or if they get all stired up about something or the other. Use to It was an everynight thing for me to go out and howl with them. Now if they are howling and I join in they just shut up!
When Im out locating in the spring or summer, I never leave the area im locating in for at least 30 min. alot of the time I wont get a responce for 15 min or so, I would gess they relocate in the home range before they give away there location. And I always use yip howls for this. Sometimes moving up and down the road as I am howling.
Rich,
Puppy howls have worked very well for me here, I run them alot. But I keep them high pitched and shorter than a lone howl with alot of taper on the end of them and no barks. I will run two of them, then a couple barks and a lower pitched lonehowl, very non aggresive. Lots of taper up and good taper down.
I also remember getting to hear some good howling from your local packs off you back porch. You getting any good recording of them?
And I sure would of liked to of had a look at that footage of those coyotes as they got togeather! Had to be awsome stuff!
The coyote last weekend, was a yoy coyote, it came in very slow, on the down wind side, and stuck to the cover, would not cross the open. I ended up shooting him at 150 yards on the edge of the cover. I started that stand with Rabbit destress, with no visable responce after a few series and 15 min on the stand I started the howling. He showed in just a few min. But he could of been coming anyway I dont know.
Brent
[ November 03, 2005, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted November 04, 2005 07:35 AM
I grew up hunting in two distinctly different habitats for coyotes. Out West up in the Texas Panhandle coyotes are often times vocal all day. Out their they are also more likely to respond vocally as well as respond by showing up to just about any type howl. They tend to respond better to the non-threatening type lone howls though but just about any type howl will often get some type of responses.
On the other hand, here where I currently live in East Texas they seldom howl during daylight, and seldom answer to any attempts at provoking a vocal response. They will respond to howls though by silently working the wind and very cautiously using the available cover. This gets you busted more often than not unless the set up is perfect. The terrain however makes this almost impossible and the odds are way in the coyotes favor. What they do more often than not is wait for darkness and then approach. All this makes for a very time consuming and unproductive way to call coyotes in this habitat. Prey distress sounds however are very effective and in my mind more reliably call coyotes in this part of the country. With prey distress sounds they often times come in lots more willingly and with less caution. This also gets them there faster and they are easier to handle than a howled in coyote.
I have my own theories as to why coyotes in these two habitats act so different. Survival, I believe is the main reason that coyotes do anything. Here in the Eastern part of the state they deal with more threats and have become very paranoid. (I know most Western coyotes have been very persecuted for decades and show this paranoia as well). They have learned to keep their mouth shut in order to survive. One reason I believe is because of visibility. These coyote’s cant see very far and danger can be very close, thus they keep quiet and very alert. This is not so in the more open parts of the West. With lots of people/danger around they just can't afford to announce their presence. I also believe they are more inclined to carve out their core areas and defend them more than the Western coyotes though out the year. When you howl to these coyotes they simply go to their core areas and silently wait it out on the defensive. If your close enough you may get a challenge howl out of him but he ain’t coming. They simply don't interact with other groups as much are as well as the western coyotes. Now if your lucky enough or good enough you can get very close to these core areas and threaten them and get a response, but again the terrain in these core areas give the coyote the upper hand most every time. You are much better off staying on the edge of these areas and trying to call them out with a distress sound. I'm not saying that coyote vocalizations can't or don't work, in fact quiet the opposite is true. In certain circumstances they are very effective in tight cover, but only if you know the area and the coyotes well enough to get the odds in your favor. Howling here typically just gets the coyotes alarmed and makes them go to their core area and set up their defenses. If you’re off a few yards you won't see this happen and are very likely to get your self busted. East Texas has a network of roads with lots of houses. In most places houses are within 1/4 mile of each other and you can seldom go 1/2 a mile in any direction without crossing a public road. Coyotes tend to hole up in small tracts of tight cover between these roads and houses with just about every avenue of a potential threat covered Getting yourself into position to get them to respond to another coyote is tough, but they will more freely respond to a meal and with less caution.
Howling is a very effective way to call coyotes given the right circumstances, but in certain types of habitat, and coyotes conditioned differently it can be very tough and not very productive. I cringe every time I hear people say "I start every stand with a howl". That works great in many parts of the country but I believe it is very poor advise for other parts of the country. This is why I say I start every stand with a prey sound and then if that doesn't get a response I may go to the coyote vocals. Start with the high percentage call and go from there with the finesse calls.
I know I got off topic but I felt obliged to do so as I haven't diverted quiet as many threads as the rest of you pampas know it alls. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Coyotes in different parts of the country are still just coyotes, but have adapted to very different sets of circumstances. The basics for calling and locating them are basically the same everywhere but need to be tailored to fit the way the coyotes have adapted. Humans need to learn from the coyotes and adapt their behavior as well or they won't be very succesfull trying to fool them into gun or camera range.
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted November 04, 2005 08:21 AM
Sorry for the apparent chip.
Do you have an idea why coyotes would respond vocally to it?(Lone Howl)
Yes, because the primary purpose in a real coyote, when Lone Howling, is to make contact with and identify coyotes that are in his immediate or adjoining areas. To put it simply, a coyote lone howls for the purpose of locating other coyotes. That's why it make sense that you can expect a vocal response to your lone howl
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted November 04, 2005 08:40 AM
My calling area here in Iowa is a lot like what Byron describes. Lots of houses, lots of people and lots of spooky coyotes. My coyotes seem to become wise to distress crys a lot quicker than they wise up to coyote talk. When a coyote hears a stranger in their area, they seem inclined to check him out. What I like best about this thread is that we are helping people to learn that you do not need a college course in coyote language in order to make it work for you. If you can learn to make a lonesome sounding howl, and maybe some puppy squeals, then you can experience some success in howling up coyotes. Sure there are other coyote sounds you can use in certain circumstances, but time in the field will help you learn. Coyotes are the best teachers anyway.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted November 04, 2005 09:00 AM
quote:
That's why it make sense that you can expect a vocal response to your lone howl
I agree with everything but the "vocal" word. I believe some with respond vocally, depending on many factors and the mood of the coyote, but alot of the responding will not be vocal. It could be the coyote responding non vocally.
After reading Byron and everything elses threads the analogy came to mind that a lone coyote coming into an area is a lot like going alone into a bad part of town. Most people would keep there head down and pass through quietly, but some will yell out "Is anyone here???". The possible responses of the local "gang" might be to holler back with some smack about your momma, that they are going to kill you, and such, or they could holler back to each other to assemble and take a defensive posture to attack you if you approach deaper into their "turf". While some gang members will move quietly, knowing their turf like the back of their hand, to set up for an attack.
The response of the gang will depend alot on how you yell out "Hey, anyone here?" If you are scared the gang of thugs will be embolded. If you sound big and confident and that you can take on any foe, the gang might fall back in a defensive postion. If your question is somewhere in between, the gang may circle you catiously for a possible attack or yell back smack at you telling you to leave.
And to continue the "gang" analogy, some gangs are very strong, battle hardened, embolded because of the area they are in, the fights they've been in, etc. Their "turf" is constantly under attack from other gangs so they are very organized, effiecient, and don't mess around.
Some "gangs" are a joke, a group of thugs, unorganized, they don't have their territory challenged, therefore don't get in many fights/wars, they talk alot of smack but don't have the pressure from other "gangs" to battle harden them.
I believe this describes alot of coyote "gangs" as well. Some are pressured by other coyotes and have to defend their territory constantly from possible invaders. Others, possibly where the population is low, are not pressured by other coyotes and therefore aren't as apt to defend their territory at the drop of a hat. They'd be more likely to talk than fight.
Just one man's thoughts.
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
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posted November 04, 2005 09:41 AM
Although I do enjoy callin. All of this "sifering" & figuring on what their thinking/doing, ect, ect.
Leads me back to, spot/stalking...pretty simplistic. See'em, stalk'em, bang'em .
You all, have brought forth many interesting points & observations. What an intriguing animal.
Callin in the fall, stalking come snowfly.
Doesn't get any better IMO. ![[Cool]](cool.gif) .
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
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posted November 04, 2005 10:12 AM
2dogs, that stand you refered to yesterday, where we yip-howled and the coyotes responded and then the wolf, coy-wolf, dog-wolf, whatever it was, responded. If I remember right we tried every trick in our bag of tricks that stand, an array of rabbit, coyote pup in distres, even a doe in distress, and didn't get anything to respond (besides those deer coming in...). Then when we throught there weren't any coyotes in the square mile we were in we lit up our howlers with alot of yipping and howling. Then coyotes from all over lit up responding to us.
I now wonder what would have happened if we would have lonesome howled during that set. There were plenty of coyotes to come in and check us out if we had howled them in.
I also wonder how many other fruitless stands we've done that if we would have yip-howled at the end how many coyotes would have responded, having not responded to our other calls.
A few years ago when I did more full moon night hunting (back in my single days, LOL) I would howl or play the JS locator (locator worked alot better) to whip up the coyotes, determine where they were at to know which direction to face, then after they were good and whipped up start a distressed rabbit. If I could get a group whipped up they almost always came in. And on a couple occasions they when I had two "packs" whipped up both came in, one such encounter resulted in the packs getting into a brawl over the hill where I couldn't see it... I've also had a couple occasions where the packs would be whipped up, I'd start the rabbit, and a loner from the opposite direction would come in fast, trying to beet the packs in I guess. You just never know what's going to happen.
Maybe this winter if we have a sunup stand we can do some yip-howls, see what we can get stired up, and then get on the distress. See what happens.
And on some of the other stands try a few lonesome howls as the opener.
Our bag of tricks this year is now a lot bigger than the one we had last year!!!
Now as long as I don't miss the coyote like I did last year.... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
later,
scruffy
[ November 04, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted November 04, 2005 01:51 PM
To tell you the truth, I don't know this to be a fact, but have read that transient coyotes are not vocal, not wanting an ass kicking? That leads me to believe that a lot of the coyote communication is between family units, and within family units.
Commenting on what Byron said, differences between east and west Texas, I can see where the sheer distances involved would mean a need for long range communication. As a (for instance), I hear more unprovoked howling in Nevada than Arizona. Nevada is a lot more open, lacks trees and brush and the animals are scattered, more singles than doubles. I conclude that they range further apart during the night's hunt, and do a lot more communicating in order to assemble in the morning. Just a theory?
Now, getting back to Greeside's situation. I'm thinking he is hunting coyotes that aren't extremely educated and fearlessly howl back to a lone howl, even if they intend to approach? In my experience, they tend to do one or the other, but not both. There has been some talk here about core areas, where they can be defined, and that would certainly influence a coyote to respect boundaries, but they might not be able to help themselves in replying with some sassy backtalk.
I still say, and practice this. Long lone howls, without any barks or yips are for hunting. I seldom have a need for locating with howling, so don't do much of that unless I'm really stumped.
Well, as we have seen here, there are a lot of ways to skin this cat. Hope everybody can find some value and apply it?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
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posted November 04, 2005 01:51 PM
Scruff, Myself & the neighbor guy been over in that same section, many times in the late pm. That section holds plenty of coyotes[constantly].
Those coyote will/have not [vocally] responded to yips/howls or distress sounds during any daylight hrs. [Only] right at dusk & a few minutes after. Thats it.
Neighbor guy, took his young Black Lab over there last fall[1-hr before dusk]. Had a pack sitting in a timber patch barking at his dog. He's in his Rag Ghilli, propped against a big Oak.
One male came out to confront his dog. He met up with a 90gr .243wssm Ballistic Tip, upside the Sternum. Game over.
I'm gonna hit that section hard, soon. Especially come snowfly
[ November 04, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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