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Author
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Topic: 50 # coyote with play by play pictures of kill.
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted December 23, 2005 04:10 PM
Leonard,
Is the DNA the same in Dalmatians and GR’s??? Just mess’n don’t want to start down that road but it is a thought?????
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
Posts: 46 | From: PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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brad h
Knows what it's all about
Member # 57
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posted December 23, 2005 04:11 PM
CBGC,
I don't want you to get hit by a car tomorrow.
But I don't want the Steelers to get that last AFC playoff spot either.
Okay, I'm out.
Brad
Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 23, 2005 04:30 PM
I like cheap shots. Jack Daniels sounds like a not so bad idea. And, I still say that they're woyotes. Ultimately, I was just yanking yer chain. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
In any event, back to the original questions, even though Byron really didn't pose any questions and any questions that have arisen just seem to be more tangents and side tracks:
Bergman's Rule aside, I find it interesting that those Texas coyotes routinely get that big when I have never seen a coyote, let alone a woyote, in KS that passed the 41# mark. I think that there are all the various subspecies as listed and that along the fringes of their ranges, you will see hybrids expressing each's characteristics. And I think that there are some subspecies that can throw unusually large individuals while there are those that do not. C. Latrans frustror, in the eastern half of Kansas, are typically larger in stature than C.l.latrans in western Kansas. In my area, they overlap and I can easily see both in the same hour of the day, and at times running together. C.l.latrans is much paler with silkier guard hairs, whiter bellies, shorter legs, and barely any black on the front of the foreleg, while frustror is best decsribed as a roan coyote with red hair on the back, longer legs, 4-5# heavier on average than a same age coyote in latrans, and with the fronts of the forelegs nearly entirely black at times. I can usually tell which one I've called from a couple hundred yards away and have actuially had the opportunity to selectively kill for the better subsp. when I have 2 or more on the deck.
For example, this coyote I shot Tuesday morning looks, to me, to be a mixture of the two.
C.l.latrans shows a belly this light in color, but won't be this red on the back. C.l. frustror is always red on the sides and back, but generally has a darker belly, rarely pale, and not with this much difference between the upper and lower parts of the face.
If there is that much variation in these two subspecies, I would accept the assertion that Byron's coyotes could produce those Mongo mutant woyote-looking critters down there and only ask that he export a few up this way so I can hunt them, too. (BTW, I've never seen a black coyote taken around here, nor have I heard of one, whereas Byron has seen and taken a bunch over the years.)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted December 23, 2005 05:18 PM
Experts; Back in 1981, we had an "AIDS" poster in our FD. Stated to the effect. You can't get AID'S from "kissing". Well....that was later changed, from as long as you don't "deep French kiss" [open sore or a bleeder,eh] ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Experts; Just of late. Seen on the news. That "they"[Experts], now say. That "high Fiber" now has no greater[colon cancer] reduction properties :confused:Hmmmmm
I'm kinda like, Leonard. I often question [Experts].
The smartest man, knows but a grain of sand...in the desert of truth .
BTW Lance, I agree with the "Woyote" & "Coydog" mix's ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted December 23, 2005 06:20 PM
Rod and Byron, I got a idea. lets lease up a lot of pasture between Orange and Bossier City. We can plant it in Milo treated with the growth hormones used by the Chicken and turkey industry.
This will result in our normal two pound field rats growing to six pounds. The Coyotes will eat the giant rats full of growth hormones. In no time we could have our own subspecies of CL Bigassmus 120 pound Coyotes.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted December 23, 2005 06:32 PM
CBGC,..I have to agree with you,the eastern coyote 'is' smarter than its western cousin.[Let er fly boys!]
It has nothing to do with a college education,but an education,none the less.Some here want to disagree because i think it has something to do with there ego..I guess something bigger,smarter and better is something they can't handle,unless they have it and if they had it,they couldn't handle it,"no better than we can."
I've heard this crap, [someday you're coyote will be as smart as the western coyote],someday. "Makes me want to laugh" Sorry,but there education has been ahead of it's western brother for a long time.
If there not so smart,why is it that so many big name[western coyote hunters]came here to Pa. and went back,with a big fat-[ZERO]-coyotes,killed?
Why are they larger?..I don't honestly know.
Why are they better...There not,so i will skip that one.
Why are they smarter?..They don't have the wide open spaces like the western coyotes have to escape danger.They have to smartin up to survive in these smaller pockets of land..They have been hunted and called as much,"if not more"than the western coyote and been run by hounds.They have learned to avoid almost any trick you try to throw at them..There no super coyote,but a smart one indeed.
Jay,..On the trapping..There so good at flipping traps,i had to nail my traps on a peice of plywood and turn it upside down in the hole..When they slipped there paw under to flip the trap,"WHAMO".Now there smarting up to that...LOL [Kidding]
No hard feelings meant or intended to anyone.
Merry Xmas,Everyone
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 23, 2005 06:34 PM
quote:
I guess I have to ask why you are so adamantly against the thought that coyotes could hybridize with wolves.
Lance, I am not, "adamantly against the thought", I am against dishonest misrepresentation, all dolled up as "scientific fact".
I'm telling you that these guys are liars and cheats. Just because "they" claim they have irrefutable proof that eastern coyotes possess one scintilla of wolf DNA, that does not impress me one scintilla. If the scientific method means anything at all, it should stand up to duplication by independant sources. This is not happening, dude!
If OJ Simpson can get away with murder, with the help of liars and cheats and paid shills in the scientific community, by calling black white; then I can reserve my distaste for all of these fakes that try to hoodwink us with their credentials. Yes, I'm a skeptic, and proud of it.
edit: quote:
With all due respect, your rejection of DNA technology ......
Please understand, Lance. I do not "reject" DNA technology. I know how it works. The problem is when some Scientist ******* decides to use total fabrication and lies and then trots out the DNA buzz word so that everybody stands at attention and salutes it as holy writ. They don't have to (actually) prove anything, they just have to CLAIM that they proved it.
These "studies" go way beyond a simple difference of opinion. Do we have "Global Warming" or not? How can HONEST people use the same data and reach different conclusions? Does "second hand smoke" actually cause lung cancer, or is it enough, that we cannot prove otherwise? Is EVOLUTION an absolute proven fact, or is there room for INTELLIGENT DESIGN? What the hell are they afraid of? If it stands up, it stands up. If my faith tells me that we are more than just smart monkeys, why are the courts afraid to allow four paragraphs of dissent, on the off chance that the scientific community is full of shit? LB
[ December 23, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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PAyotehunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 764
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posted December 23, 2005 11:17 PM
East vs. West.
Every time this topic comes up I put out this offer and for some unknown reason, I think it has to do with pride, I never get any response.
For anyone who thinks they could call in coyotes in the east I have a cabin in Northeast PA (Pike Co.) there is around 90,000 acers of huntable land, state forest,state game lands,etc. its all woods, no fields or big open areas. There is a real good coyote population.
I would pick you up at LVI airport and drop you back off at the end of the hunt. It would cost you your flight and food.
If any of you western callers think your up to it reply here or shoot me an e-mail slsaws2004@netzero.net
BUT at the end of the 3days,1 week, however long you think you need, be ready to hear "I told ya they are different". ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 57 | From: Northeast PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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Rob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 75
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posted December 24, 2005 01:44 AM
I wouldn't even try to call the area you described..traps and snares would be my choice.
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"Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer
Posts: 224 | From: Clancy Montana | Registered: Feb 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted December 24, 2005 04:45 AM
Interesting discussion/opinions.
I've told about the coyotes in my area, many times before. Some folks have expressed, there's "no difference" in coyotes. All can be called. Perhaps, @ the exact right moment in time.
Seems one [key], here in this discussion, is behavioral. Same coyote...[act's differently]. Yup, I agree with that.
My hunt area, has very little timber. Mostly wide open rolling [corn]cropland hills.
Their [watching] most of the time.
Out of the 9 or 10 coyotes. I've managed to call in to date. Only one came to within 60yrds, he was [loping/pronking] fast. All the others, wouldn't come closer than 150yrds. Most hung way out there.
Shotguns...no worky here ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 24, 2005 06:40 AM
OK Leonard, now you have gone and done it. Your cheap shot was just that. My Dad once used the phrase "Don't let your education get in the way of your learning"(A variant of yours to Lance). He used that in an argument about differences in business philosophy between he and I. He had payed for my College learning and did not want to let me use any of it.
I had seen these ideas work in large corporations I had worked for and knew them to be good approaches to business growth. I wanted our corporation to grow and he wanted to not lose control. It was a classic struggle between first and second generation.
I am not sure how that pertains to the subject at hand but needed to get that off my chest.....thanks.....now back to the conversation.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted December 24, 2005 08:48 AM
The first Civil War was between the North and South. Looks like the next will be East and West.
Byron and Rod, Yawl better jump on board my super rat project. Have already ordered a 375 and some 350 gr V-Max's for the CL Bigassamus Coyotes.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted December 24, 2005 09:13 AM
Quote, "Is the DNA the same in Dalmatians and GR’s???"
No. It's similar in a broad sense, but identifiably different.
The National Institute of Health has funded research to compile the complete DNA sequence of the dog. The Center for Veterinary Genetics at the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine currently has responsibility for the DNA bank. To date, more than 100 recognized dog breeds have been genetically mapped.
With this information, it is “scientifically” possible to distinguish the difference between a blood sample from a dalmatian and one from a golden retriever. These DNA profiles are routinely being used in police investigations for verification and genetic identity purposes.
This same methodology can also be used to accurately identify and distinguish DNA samples from gray wolves, red wolves, coyotes, cape hunting dogs, dingos, and domestic dog breeds.
A similar detailed, in-depth genetic analysis of coyotes would have to be undertaken before the "East vs West" controversy could ever be more than just conjecture and speculation.
BTW, the esteemed BM is a staunch supporter of the "woyote" theory. Although he proclaims it as fact, rather than theory.
[ December 24, 2005, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 24, 2005 10:16 AM
NASA, you notice I have not said that I don't believe in DNA. Yes, it's a wonderful techology with broad application.
When they map the coyote genome, and they map every wolf genome, they will have a starting point for that "overlay transparency" I mentioned before, which doesn't exist, except as a device in this debate.
In the meantime, it is like comparing two slightly different fingerprints, and noticing that some swirels and loops look alike. Hmmm? No doubt.
I am perfectly willing to concede the point when I see valid data from an unimpeachable source. Lucky for me, that does not exist, at the moment.
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Welcome to the New Huntmasters, PAyotehunter. Glad to have you on board.
As to your "offer". It's no mystery why you get no response; nobody is interessted in playing your game. Assume some halfwit accepts your terms and fails to kill an eastern coyote. Why do you think that proves that a Pennsylvania coyote is different, or smarter?
If you sleep better by knowing that your coyotes are (somehow?) different, that's great.
I assume you have hunted coyotes in enough places that you are the sole expert on the subject, and the rest of us are rank amateurs.
Okay, your opinion is duly noted and you can tell us "pampass know it alls"; "I told you so" if you ever prove your point.
Good hunting. LB
[ December 24, 2005, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted December 24, 2005 10:35 AM
Say, Leonard...Where did that phrase[Pampass know it alls], come from anyway .
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BTW, I've been called many things...never that
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted December 24, 2005 10:44 AM
As has been said previously, it's "adaptability" not intellegence. If 30 AZ coyotes were trapped and subsequently released in the Allegheny National Forest, how long do you think it would take for them to become indistinguishable from the local population?
They would not "become" smarter. They are already just as "smart" as the locals. What they would have to do is adapt to to the different biosphere. And they would do it in a matter of months.
[ December 24, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 24, 2005 11:28 AM
quote:
Say, Leonard...Where did that phrase[Pampass (sic) know it alls], come from anyway .
That comes from Glenn Guess, who made the charge on another board, talking about Huntmasters. Some of us frat boys think it's amusing.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted December 24, 2005 11:34 AM
10-4, thanks. Hmmmm, how do I become one LOL!
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted December 24, 2005 11:41 AM
Melvin,Payotehunter, CBGC,
I did come out to PA last year and was skunked. To my knowledge I didn't call a thing. Was I suprized or disapointed? No. While I was there (3-4 days) PA had the largest flood since 1972. Every drop fell within 3 of those days. Not making excuses but, I wouldn't have even hunted in that weather had I not been there. Not only was is raining but the wind was blowing at least 40 miles an hour the entire time I was there.
Of the things that I took particular interest in though was the lack of coyote sign. I covered lots of ground while there and never saw one smidgen of evidence that a coyote even inhabited the land where we were trying to make one appear from. I hear from lots of guys from PA say "We have real good coyote population" Compared to what? Not trying to be a smart ass but real good populations of coyotes leave real good sign that the said populations exists. Are they even smart enough out there to cover their tracks and cover their scat? OK, OK, that was kind of smart assed.
Another thing that struck me was the similarity in terrain to what I hunt here in EAST Texas. Pretty dang close.
Another thing I find is guys around here (East Texas)complain of the same problems you PA guys do. To thick, to many people, coyotes to smart, not as many as out West. They pretty much experience the same lack of success that you PA guys have experienced. Many to the point of just giving up and declaring it just don't work on our coyotes, and spouting the same words you PA guys do "Man you guys out West sure have it easy". I've hunted out West quite a bit and I will tell you, guys out West that kill lots of coyotes, work their butts off to do so. Most Western callers I speak with would love for you Eastern guys to come out and show them where the dumbs one are.
Back to the meat. I have hunted East Texas my entire life. I can remember when if someone saw or heard a coyote it was a big deal. We have not always had lots of coyote, and still don't by many standards. Through the years I have been fortunate to hunt and call coyotes in several states East and West and have applied what I've learned out West to what I've learned here to become quite successfull in calling these coyotes in pretty consistantly. Do I have it all figured out, not hardly. Do I call one every time I go out? No, but my odds have gotten way better through the years.
I find it very frustrating for guys back East to tell me I don't understand when I do understand. Believe me when I say I understand you're frustration. Been there, got the shirt. You should have the population we now have in East Texas and still go a season without calling a coyote. These guys see tracks and hear coyotes howling and even step on scat in the very trails they are calling on, but yet still don't see coyotes. Out of frustration they too whine that these coyotes just have to be smarter. All the while I'm killing coyotes on about 1 out of five stands in the same country. I'm not saying this to boast or to belittle anyone, but just to say it is tougher, and I know it's tougher, and it has nothing to do with some superior breed of coyote. They all still have that dumb look on their face right before I send them to their happy hunting grounds in the sky.
PAyothunter,
I could offer you the same challenge to come to my neck of the woods to kill coyotes and chances are you would not see a coyote in a weeks time as well. This is not meant as a slam of your abilities but as an honest assessment of your experience. I have guided many experienced but very frustrated coyote hunters from back East. I give them a choice between hunting East Texas and West Texas. I also inform them of what they can expect. Most choose West Texas so they can experience the thrill of seeing one come for a ways. And also because of the larger population they can expect to kill more animals. A large portion of these guys return home with a better understanding of coyotes, setting up, and have become more successfull when they return home. A small handfull of the guys I have guided from the East have elected to conduct their hunts here in East Texas. They are amazed at the similarities in terrain and cover. On each stand I explain what were doing and why. Usually after two or three days a light comes on in their head and they fiugure it out. They then return home and start to kill coyotes on a more consistant basis.
I will maintain untill my dying day that coyotes are no smarter determined by their address, but I will also concede that Eastern coyotes are on average tougher to call (reason I mentioned in an earlier post). I'm also fully aware of the many subspecies of coyotes found across the country, but many callers seem to skip the simple fact that they are still all coyotes regardless of what subspecies they are. Coyotes of all subspecies like to come to the distress cries of an animal and will respond the the vocals of other coyotes as well. They make their living doing this sort of thing, daily. Eastern callers, in genaral, have larger hurdles to cross in getting through the learning curve to become consistantly successful. You simply have tougher country to hunt, more pressured coyotes, and most of all fewer coyotes. This combines to leghthen the amount of time to figured this stuff out considerably. What normally will take a guy in the West only a year to figure out will take a guy in the East 10 years to figure out. Are we to assume from this that Westerners are smarter than Easterners. No, they just have a better class room. The reverse is true with the coyotes. Intelligence has nothing at all to do with. Where they get their education does.
I'm sure some of the things I have said won't sit well with some, and I want to apoplogize now if I offended anyone. These were not my intentions. I like these debates and value anyones take on the matter.
Merry Christmas
Byron
[ December 24, 2005, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted December 24, 2005 12:02 PM
Byron, I know you probably didn't expect your original post to take this detour. But it seeded some interesting and thought provoking discussion. I appologize for taking it off-track and at the same time thank you for your insight along the path it did take.
MERRY CHRISTMAS everybody!!
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted December 24, 2005 12:10 PM
quote:
When they map the coyote genome, and they map every wolf genome, they will have a starting point for that "overlay transparency" I mentioned before, which doesn't exist, except as a device in this debate.
Leonard,
You are known to occasionally drop a "golden nugget of wisdom" on us.
This is absolutely one of those times.
I agree PAyotehunter's "challange" is no more likely to recieve an answer than my challenge has.
Nobody wants to play against a stacked deck.
East, west, blah blah blah... I live close enough to the Pacific Ocean I can smell it, nobody hunts country any thicker than I do.
I am not buyin' the east-west crap.
It's hard if you make it hard, nobody knows that better than I do.
Why no Washington "super-coyote", is a big question to me? We have good sized cats, elk (world record was broke this fall), bears, etc. Why tiny deer and small/average coyotes?
Anytime you PA boys are up for a real challange, come on out, one of you kills three coyotes over three consecutive days, in my county, and I'll eat the third one.
Nobody, in a few years of offering, wants to play my game either. Suprised?
Byron,
I agree with NASA, you've made some really good points (even if I could tell steam was coming out your ears), your writing has improved a lot (*awesome use of paragraphs dude!).
Krusty 
P.S. Yes, kids that are raised on the streets are smarter. About the streets!
This doesn't mean they'll have the same skills the pampered kids have, or that those pampered kids are without skills of their own.
The coyotes that live in a more urban envoronment will behave differently than "wild" coyotes do. Each will possess it's own set of skills, relative to it's own daily life.
[ December 24, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 24, 2005 01:17 PM
I do not wish to offend anybody, either. However, I have noticed, through the years, that eastern predator hunters have a higher percentage of whiners. lol
Just kidding, don't get your panties wadded up!
I wish they would hurry up with that definitive DNA proof we keep hearing about. Then, I may sleep a little better knowing for sure that wolves EAT coyotes; they seldom SCREW them....... Oh yeah? Okay, who's seen it?
That's what I thought. LB
[ December 24, 2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 24, 2005 02:56 PM
Hey Byron,
Nice pics. That's a BIG coyote, man. Thanks for sharing.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted December 24, 2005 03:38 PM
Byron,
Not to sure who you hunted with while you where out this way but I would blame the lack sign on them and their lack of scouting. Last year at one point I was 1 for every 9 stands, and this was consistent for a good part of the year. When it was all over I was 1 for 11, not to bad for this area. I do not recall me whining about hunting in PA, I wouldn’t trade the ridge tops here for anything in the world.
I am sure if you spent time here your numbers would be the same if not higher. Why U have way more experience at killing coyotes than I do and you are dedicated to what you do, as am I
But I will tell ya one thing about me, I don’t measure my success by pulling the trigger I measure it by the knowledge I gain, this is what makes me successful every time I step into the woods.
Merry Christmas Everyone!
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
Posts: 46 | From: PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 24, 2005 04:23 PM
CBGC, good job on those PA coyotes. I believe you when you say it. Unfortunately many in your own state will call you a liar. Let me go eat my pizza and I will say a little more on this subject unless you guys are ready to let it rest.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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