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Author
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Topic: The New Huntmastersbbs!2: Locator vs. Interrogation howl
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 04, 2005 02:49 PM
Dennis, why, in your opinion, do you think coyotes respond vocally to your lone howls?
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted November 04, 2005 03:32 PM
Rich, could go over the lost pup howls you use once more? Thanks, Todd.
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted November 04, 2005 05:30 PM
This topic really has me scratching my head...
My experience with using what I consider "Lone Howls" mirrors what Dennis and DAA have reported. I used to do some locating before daylight but found pretty quick that coyotes were answering, showing up and busting me as I stood howling beside the pickup in the predawn darkness. Now I never lone howl unless I am set up and ready to shoot. Or unless I just want to screw around and get some coyotes to answer. When I get coyotes that approach the lone howl only it is quite often a pair or more. Or possibly a lone older male coyote. When younger coyotes or females do happen come into the lone howl only they are coming slow and cautious.
I think in my case most of the time when I get physical and vocal responses it's coyotes coming in to chase or check out the new coyote on the block, or lonely coyotes wanting a friend. For me some of the best lessons have been spotting a coyote way off and than giving them the lone howl and watching their reaction.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted November 04, 2005 06:36 PM
quote:
My experience with using what I consider "Lone Howls" mirrors what Dennis and DAA have reported. I used to do some locating before daylight but found pretty quick that coyotes were answering, showing up and busting me as I stood howling beside the pickup in the predawn darkness.
Lonny, that's part of what I have been trying to say, here, in several ways. A better use of a lone howl is when you are actively hunting, rather than attempting to locate coyotes, because chances are very good that you have called them and they are coming.
Whereas. If you are locating, the plan is to go to where they are, and make a stand.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 04, 2005 07:23 PM
To redress some of the finer, less notable tangents mentioned here (and this place is all about tangents, ain't it?), I have a couple new questions.
1) Mention was made of using howls to call coyotes that were spotted out and about. I've had occasions where coyotes would hang up and after throwing everything but the kitchen sink at them, including total silence for a while, I've thrown a lone howl at them and only had them gimme a blank stare. On the other hand, I've given them a brief series of puppy ki-yi's and had them run past their own asses coming in. Has anyone else ever experienced this or seen this themselves, and if so, have you ever used the ki-yi as a stand alone sound for starting a stand?
2) Byron talks about how he's frequently seen coyotes respond to lone howls by relocating to their territorial core and establishing a defensive position. Have you ever used the lone howl to get those coyotes to relocate, then come back at a later time to a known core area, approached from another angle and used distress sounds or challenges to try and pick them up from where they've been "chummed" to congregate?
Just some thought to add a bit more juice to the debate.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted November 04, 2005 07:42 PM
#1 no
#2 no
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31478 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted November 04, 2005 07:46 PM
Anybody else going howling tomorrow morning?
I dug out and dusted off my JS CH1 howler (the supersized one with the big grey cone) and put it in my calling bag for tomorrow morning's calling. Atleast one, hopefully 2 stands.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted November 04, 2005 07:59 PM
Hmmm, appears my question was lost in the shuffle.
Q. Anyone [ever] heard a coyote, do two barks, followed by a [crowing] noise. Like a Rooster chicken? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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brad h
Knows what it's all about
Member # 57
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posted November 04, 2005 08:55 PM
Kirby,
Never heard or seen anything like that. It probably suapected something out of wack but couldn't see or smell anything wrong. His marbles may not have been together being you just woke him up. I'm not a big fan of getting out of bed myself. lol
I've never located with the intent to hear coyotes, move close and call, and expect them to come in. I used to run a 70 mile oilfield road at night stopping every 10 or 15 miles to howl a few times to hear the groups fire up. It gave me an idea of how many there were and where they hung. I didn't expect them to be there when I called but it gave me a proximity.
As long as it's a calm dark night, they answer. moonlit nights are only slightly better than days. They don't speak during day here. Aside from the occational agitated coyote that I actually see howl during a pit stop on his way in.
I guess I don't quite understand all the lingo when it comes to howls. It seems in groups there's one or two that sound like several barks strung together. Yip howl I'm assuming? Anyway, the described lone howl is all I've ever used to locate, and it's always worked given a dark calm night so this is all new to me.
TR,
I've tried that sound and gear howlers to make it, but the variation is so close to the super high pitched coyote distress sounds, I find myself in distress mode before I know it. That high pitched stuff is something I've had a lot of luck with though when using howlers.
Brad
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted November 04, 2005 09:21 PM
Yup Brad, That coyote would move a short ways, turn my direction. Then sit down & go through that same sequence, over & over.
I have him on video/audio. Pretty grainy but still pretty cool. I laughed all the way home about it.
Of all the coyotes I've ever heard. Never heard that "crowing noise" before or since.
I'm sure I coulda tagged him, but the entertainment value was priceless. Seen him mutiple times in that same section. Always on the move & watching my truck.
Perhaps this snowfly, we'll meet again.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted November 05, 2005 07:05 AM
And speaking of pitch, do you guys have more success with high pitched lonehowls, or low pitched howls. Seems I rarely use low pitched howls.
Brad, you're right, that high pitched breeding sound can turn into a distress sound pretty easy. The strange part to me about using it, is I have had more females fall to it than males?
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 05, 2005 09:32 AM
Again, no expert here, but it seems to me that the best place for a low pitched howl is a challenge, if you know how to handle that particular sound?
Every other useful "hunting" sound is high pitched, meant to replicate a young, non threatening animal.
Now, if you are locating for purposes of walking or driving in the direction of the animals that returned your howl, it probably doesn't matter if your howls are imitating a mature animal. Just speculation on my part because I don't find "locating" to be particularly useful.
Why? Because in some of my areas, the coyotes are too timid to respond (vocally) to any howl, regardless of pitch. Does the moon actually influence the nature of the responses we get to howling? Could be? It's an interesting thought.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31478 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted November 05, 2005 05:55 PM
I would have to say that my Lonesome howls are medium in pitch most of the time. I believe that the non aggressive inflection in a lonesome howl is important. When I resort to challenge type bark/threat howls, I will often use both high and low pitched types.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted November 05, 2005 10:06 PM
I HATE THEM!..I HATE THEM!..I HATE THEM!..POTATO CHIPS AND PRETZELS!! ![[Mad]](mad.gif) This evening i asked my youngest son to go calling with me..I had this wonderfull spot picked out..I went through the details on how we would go about-sneaking in-no talking-load the gun up,before we got there,and etc...Well the plan was good,but!..THOSE DRY SUNSUBITCHEN LEAVES!!and dry STICKS!UNDER THE LEAVES!!..Every step was like stepping on a fresh bag of CHIPS,on top, of' a bag of PRETZELS!..Well anyhow,we made it to the logging road,to where i wanted to set up at..I stretched out the cord from my,JS-PM-"You guessed it",more Crunching!..Everthing is set up and i'm ready to let fly with a good long smooth howl-[me'not the PM]-I did the one that slowly rises in pitch and then slowly comes back down and ends..this is the howl i've been using for the last few years and i expect a response'if coyotes are anywhere around when i use it..Most of the time they will answere that howl,'vocally',morning,evening,or night!.."Roughly"one minuite after the howl,a coyote answeres me,about 150yds.to my right,then a few seconds later the rest of the pack opened up..I waited about 5 min.'nothing'..I then go to the JS rodent sound,"nothing shows?"..I try puppy distress and whimpers...Whoopee,they open up again!..The male moves in 25 yards closer,but the leaves on the trees are blocking our view..He refuses to come any closer..We sit and wait and wait'nothing!..Then all of a sudden they start yipping and howling on there own!! "never had this happen before!"I had some more tricks in the bag to try,but decided against it...It was getting to dark to see,and we had a lot of potato chips and pretzels to step on 'before we got back to the truck.
WELL!...WHAT WOULD YOU BLAME IT ON???
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 06, 2005 01:07 AM
damn littering
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted November 06, 2005 06:51 AM
I feel your pain Melvin. I have to deal with them dry leaves twigs and sticks as well. This morning we had a light rain and this quiets things down a bit, but it's deer season and my wifes turn to hunt while I watch the kids (Hope she gets a big'un, then it will be my turn the rest of the season ![[Wink]](wink.gif) . Back to the hunt. What you experienced is what I experiece frequently in the evenings here in East Texas. They just simply wait until after dark and all quieten down to approach and sniff around. This is also why I almost always start with a distress sound. If this doesn't work I usualy mix in some coyote pup distress, with the rabbit. Still don't work I may howl. They just respond more freely, faster, less apprehinsive, or however you want to characterize it to prey distres sounds. Like I said in my earlier post on this subject everything a coyote does revolves around survival, and eating is at the top of the list. They just simply don't respond to another coyote or potential threat in the same way as they do to a meal. I have seen coyotes in other parts of the country come in all jubilant to the sound of another coyote but never, that I can remember, in timber. They usually take for ever and come very cautious. The terrain has you at a big disadvatge when they do this. This is also not in your favor if the sun is fading from sight. There are exceptions and certain circumstances that will get immediate responces sometimes. Close proximaty to the coyote is one and pretty difficult with dry leaves lying every where. Agressive natured coyotes is another execption, but they are removed early from the gene pool around here . Most of the coyotes in my neck of the woods however are extremely paranoid and take for ever to approach another coyote, if they approach at all. When calling in the evening they simply have time and the coming darkness on their side.
Last Saturday morning on my first stand of the morning I was calling into a wooded draw that I positively knew held a coyote or two. We slipped in but somehow were busted. She however, I don't thick, got a positive ID of us. As we settled into the fence row we had chosen to make our stand in she began to threat bark at us. I let her go on for a couple of minutes and started with a rabbit distress. This just aggitated her more. After a minute or so I threw in some coyote pup distress mixed with the rabbit then went silent (She got more aggitated). I told my buddy to get comforatble as we were going to wait her out. After about 10 minutes of silence, curiosity had got the best of her and she poked here head out of the wooded draw. I watched her for a minute or two looking to see if she was alone and then shot her. This senario has played it self out so many times it's not funny. Most places I call into I know holds coyotes. When they don't come for what ever reason. I just sit and give them a few more minutes. Curiosity will often times get the best of them. Mornings are great for this as the sun and time are not a factor.
Byron
[ November 06, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 06, 2005 08:24 AM
Melvin,
I'd tell you what happened to me an hour ago, but the sting is still awfully sharp. Right now, I don't know if I should cry or laugh. I can say I cussed a lot... a LOT!!!. Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that it involved more than one coyote and the fact that I ain't busy skinning today.
[ November 06, 2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted November 06, 2005 08:32 AM
Here are a few pictures from that stand I described above. Thought they might ad some visuals to the story, and I figured you might enjoy them.
Here she is when she came out for a look.
Here she is taking possession a 60 grain V-Max.
 .
Byron
[ November 06, 2005, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
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posted November 06, 2005 09:49 AM
One more post and I'll shut up. So with that said think about this for a while. On the successful stands where you howled first and then went to the distress sounds, do you think the howls made any difference at all? On the stands where you did the same routine, but called nothing, did the howl have a negative effect? Would the coyote have come anyway with out the howl? Would he maybe come in more eager with or without the howls? When you howl and get a responce do you think you could have got the same responce if the sound was recorded and played backwards? My point is it could be a triggered responce much like responces from sirens, trains or other sources.
I built some fence for a guy that had a cage full of gibbons (Yeah the monkeys). Every afternoon they would howl and often times the coyotes would fire up. They sounded horrible but still got responces.
I'm positive that coyotes communicate using different pitches, tones and inflections. I'm also certain most experienced coyote hunters can mimic these sounds. What we can't do is interact with them by showing ourselves or giving them a nose full without getting busted while doing it. In my experience this is key. Without a visual conformation or scent conformation howled coyotes don't tend to get as close as coyotes called with prey distress sounds. They just don't seem to need the same level of conformation when using prey distress sounds. Howling certainly adds a different and useful demention to your calling arsenal but in my experience it take longer to get responces and tends to get you busted more. Howling comes in handy for sure sometimes and has made the difference for me on more stands than I can count, but I certainly don't howl on every stand and see no need to do so.
I remember when bugling for elk first got so popular. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry got him a bugle and hit the woods. Very soon it became very tough to pull in a bull with a bugle. Many more elk are called in and shot then and now with a simple, plain, vanilla, cow call. Bugles still work, but not nearly as well as they did before everybody hit the mountains blowing them at every bull in the woods. Howling for coyotes is no different in my eyes. It should be used when the circumstances call for it. Just ask Randy Anderson how effective howling is now that everybody in his county bought one of his howlers and hit the woods. I know, I know, rabbit distress sounds will educate them too, but here is my answer to that. More people get busted using howlers than any other call because of many factors I've already covered. period.
One more thought on coyotes responding to howls. Curiosity no doubt calls lots of coyotes. This is why I don't believe it is that important what you say with your howls most of the time. Some people have talked themselves into believing they called the coyote because of something they said with their howler as if they can speak coyote language when actually the coyote didn't understand a damn thing they said and only responded out of curiosity. I enjoy trying new things and learning from other experiences and like to think I have an open mind on things, but it is my firm belief after thirty years of calling, if it is your goal to call up and kill coyotes you should use the most efficient means possible for doing so. For me it has been the plain old vanilla rabbit. Now if you want to howl them all in be my guest, my hats off to you because it is certainly a challenge. For now I'll stick mainly to what produces the most consistent results for me and leave the howling for when I feel its called for.
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted November 06, 2005 04:00 PM
Byron,...when i got home and thought it over,there was 3 things that went wrong on that stand.
1.The coyotes were to close
2.The dry leaves and snapping sticks under them.
3.You are right,i shouldn't have howled.
If it would have been morning,i still have no doubts,that we would have killed a coyote.
I'm not one that likes to brag about how well i am at immitating coyote language..But it was the first way i learned to call coyotes,-using distress sounds came later.
To late to put the pamper on,-the shit already hit the ground...Damn,i'm still mad at myself for that.
Thanks,Byron...i needed that LOL
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted November 06, 2005 04:05 PM
Lance,when you cool off,i would like to hear you're story
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 06, 2005 06:02 PM
Melvin,
I don't know that I've cooled off any, but I am beginnig to see the humor in how fast things went bad. The whole experience has compelled me to write a unique article to at least assuage my anger over the entire ordeal, but I'll gladly give you a brief overview of the high points.
Third stand of the morning. Low 40's with some light frost in the shady spots. No wind to speak of. Walking in, I see what I think is a coyote I bumped at about three hundred yards crossing an opening in some cover. My luck on bumps isn't very good, but what the hell. I need to be home in a bit anyway and I drove a ways to get here.
While setting up, I see a nice bobcat come out of the same pocket of cover and wonder to myself what the hell is going on. I start with a short series of distress sounds. Didn't want to howl because, as Byron pointed out, howling only puts the process in slow motion and makes them cautious and I didn't really have time to wait them out. Within seconds, I have four coyotes inside the hundred yard mark with nuttin' b/n us but cool fresh morning air. Yep, four of the little bastards.
I like 'em up close, so I lip squeak the left- and right-most coyotes to about 60-65 yards with the other two in the middle and about twenty yards behind. While I'm trying to steady my shooting form, I'm wondering to myself why God never treats me to this while I have someone with me to witness the ordeal. What happens next was better off with no witnesses. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Rifle up. Crosshairs on the one on the right as he trots toward me. Three gruff woofs and he stops to gimme a profile look. I squeeze with deliberate control and that's where things went to hell. I heard the bullet hit, but it wasn't that macabre THWACK that you get when bullet shatters bone and the coyote didn't so much as go down as he did this crazy slump, twist and go back toward the deep grass. For the first few strides, his back was hunched and I'm sure I paunched him, but there was no blood anywhere to be found. At the first shot, the other three were scattering like quail and despite my best efforts, no one was staying around to check up on the first hit. I made three hail Mary's and failed to connect on any. All four made it onto posted ground where the owner allows NO ONE to go, regardless of the reason. As I sat there trying to rationalize what was an essentially irrationale situation, I heard a strange but distressed sounding wail from deep in that ravine. To say the least, I have been disgusted with myself for what happened today. I absolutely hate when I make a bad shot. I'd rather miss cleanly than set one to spinning or have them crawl off wounded like that.
I checked my rifle on the bench and it's still on. The fault is all mine on this one. I'll have to whack one well to feel good about my shooting again. Although I keep reminding myself of the old addage, "Don't let the same game beat you twice." Life goes on.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted November 06, 2005 07:10 PM
Lance, i know exactly how you feel.Sorry it turned out that way for you..
We all have made bad shots at one time or another and can't figure it out,or find a good reason why
What makes that situation worse,is the land owner ...We want to be ethical hunters,but sometimes its not possible.
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted November 07, 2005 09:43 AM
Dennis, why, in your opinion, do you think coyotes respond vocally to your lone howls.
Hello.. Helloo... Hellooo.... is anybody out there? Howl if you can hear me!
Dennis
[ November 07, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted November 08, 2005 06:55 AM
Can someone post where I can find studies or papers on a few things?
1 That transient and shuffling or dispersing coyotes are non-vocal.
2 Do transient and dispersing coyotes honor scent marks of other coyotes.
3 Do territorial alpha's defend their territory from transient and dispersing coyotes or are they tolerated to some degree. Will they tolerate mated pairs in their territory?
Dennis
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