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Author
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Topic: 50 # coyote with play by play pictures of kill.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 24, 2005 05:45 PM
Heck no! What you got, Gerald, I'm all ears.
Good hunting. LB
PS CB~ don't take it personal, but you have to admit, when we talk about whining coyote hunters, they all hail from, not New York or New Jersey or Ohio. They are usually in Pennsylvania, for some unknown reason?
Merry Christmas, and don't take any of this too seriously, okay?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted December 24, 2005 06:00 PM
GS,
Wouldn’t lie to ya, not married to ya. In fact not married at all and I don’t have any kids. My free time is spent in the woods spying on critters every day. I have a pretty good reputation in this part of the country as a being a half decent woodsman, a pretty honest person and a half decent caller. I hate to talk numbers because many people question them and like I said, I don’t measure my success by killing. I know of 3 or 4 guys here in PA that double my numbers???? How do they do this??? They are dedicated, like U, Byron and 50% of the other guys on this board.
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
Posts: 46 | From: PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted December 24, 2005 06:28 PM
Krusty,
I'm not hot over this subject at all. In fact, I enjoy this type discussion. Thanks for the comments on my writing. Until I got on the net a couple of years ago I had never typed or written a thing.
CBGC,
I never said you specifically were whining , but I can easily see how it looked as if I did. For that, I apologize. I go lots of places and talk to lots of coyote callers, not only on the WWW, but in person. It's not only MY observation but that of many others, that your state seems to have more than it's share of whiners. If your killing 1 out of every 9 stands you certainly have it down pretty damn good. You should put this on video and share your tactics with others in your state. From the amount of whining I here from there they are certainly hungry for this type of thing.
I would have enjoyed very much the opportunity of meeting you but would have been very surprised if we would have called in a thing under the weather conditions we had while I was there.
Here is something to think about. It would not matter if I had killed a coyote or twenty while I was there. Many of these whiners are so caught up in their defeat that they would find fault with that as well. I surely would have been hunting turned out pet coyotes, or used my pull as a coyote hunting "celebrity" (Good one huh) to gain access to only the best places, or any number of other reasons you can think of. In short it was a no win situation and always will be.
Nasa,
I've really enjoyed the way this thread has taken it's twist and turns. I would have expected nothing less.
Lance,
Thanks, but Rod deserves the credit.
Gerald,
I can't wait for you to finish your pizza and give us your take on the subject.
To all,
This East vs West thing will without a doubt never die out, but does seem to get some a little defensive. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes and if so I didn't mean any disrespect. Those that have only hunted in the East or West don't nessarily need to, to have a pretty good idea of the challenges of doing so. The rub comes in when you start trying to compare the two as apples to apples. The basics remain the same but that is about it. Many people try and relate numbers killed to skill level. This only applies when all things are equal (Never). Realistic expectations should always be considered or you will often find yourself very frustrated.
I have had guys hunting with me that thought, before hand, that I must possess some type of super human skill from viewing my videos only to have their opinion of me destroyed when I was unable to produce for several stands in a row. To me I don't think much about it. I expect to call a coyote on every stand, but often don't. I have confidence in my abilities but also have realistic expectaions and I'm keenly aware of the fact that sometimes they just don't come regarless of what you do. I've spent the better part of thirty years trying to figure out WHY. The more I try and find answers the more questions I have. Herein lies the beauty of calling coyotes. There will always be more questions than answers. This is why we never quit trying. As callers we can hone our skills with a call, learn to be slicker through the woods, learn to read sign, learn what makes a good set-up and all the other things that combine to make you a skillful coyote caller, but in the end it depends solely on the coyotes what happens after that. We have very little control over that. This is what I believe is frustrating for most new callers or those that don't have many coyotes. They need the occasional confimation that they are doing something right. Also without being able to see a coyote you don't get to learn what you did right and what you did wrong. A guy could do everything textbook correct in poor coyote country and not see a coyote but on maybe 1 out of 50 stands. On the other hand, a half asses coyote caller could expect to see maybe 1 out of every 10 stands in good calling country. This is why I believe it would be good money spent for guys living in the East to save their money and make a trip out West. Most I've seen that have done this with an open mind have reeped benefits from it. Others have had a very humbling experience and have went home empty handed. In one trip out West you can gain very valuable experiences that will apply directly to your calling in the East (hard to believe, but true).
I've seen the question posed "If two callers, one from the East and one from the West were to trade places for a month which would adapt quicker and become the most proficient". My answer will undoubtedly spark controversy but it is my honest opinion that the Western caller would be able to adapt quicker. I base this on the fact that he is more keenly aware of coyotes and their behavior through being able to observe them more. He will have some difficulties for sure but through his overwhelming experience (compared to the Easterners) with coyotes he will be able to overcome these hurdles faster. We will never know this for sure but I believe my theory is correct. This is why I mentioned above it would be of great benefit to you Eastern callers to make the trip out West and hunt some of them dumb coyotes.
Merry Christmas,
Byron ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted December 24, 2005 06:42 PM
Dave, my success was running slightly less than yours.I called in four the last time out[only 2 left in that bunch.]
You know we got the big hunt coming up in feb. and I'm still registered in the Nemacolin hunt.The hunt put my coyote killing on hold.
Byron,i agree with,Dave..you either put yourself in the wrong area? or someone steered you wrong?"Its another myth,[Pa. don't got many coyotes.]"They are there,just harder to see."
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 24, 2005 07:10 PM
I have had the occassion to visit with guys that are successful in a handfull of Eastern States. I have listened close and seem to hear a common thread in their stories. They spend alot of time in the woods. They are willing to work a little harder than most others. They use common sense and do not have unreasonable expectations.
In my time last year in PA I listened closely and it seems to me that the guys that are successful will take what is average to us, to uncommon lengths to be successful in Pa. On one hand, where we much of the time do not have to scout as in depth as the successful callers in the Northeast, it is a must there. At one of my seminars I had a guy relate that he simply sat down on a road and called for about 5 minutes and had a coyote standing about 30 feet from him. His genuinely surprised remark was that "it seemed so easy".
I cautioned him not to expect that every time because he simply was lucky enough to have sat down close by a hungry or inquisitive coyote that certainly will be more careful the next time. I talked in private with several that did not want to claim in the seminar 4 or 5 called in season because their peers would not believe them. How sad it is that people in Pa have to be afraid to speak the truth because they will be ridiculed. I know the feeling because I have on occassion admitted to going o-fer on some great Texas ranch only to have the cowboys raise their eyebrows, smile, spit towbaacceee and offer to call some up for me. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I believe the basics of calling technique and coyote response are the same east or west. It is simply a reality that in the east you have to work harder and be smarter, more careful, more creative in your effort. But guess what, there are areas in many other parts of the country where you have to be the same way. Byron makes some real good points that are logical and simply good common sense.
I have called coyotes in Vermont, Indiana, Kentuckey, South Carolina and Mississippi. I know that is not far enough East for some reading this but the terrain in many of those areas is much thicker than in the average areas I usually call in. It was tough. I have bombed in Wisconsin, Connecticut and seems like one other I can't recall right now. I came away from those trips extremely dissappointed because I had unreasonable expectations. I had no chance to scout, I picked calling stands as I went and I only made an average # of stands in the short time I had there.
I recently went into a Ranch totally unprepared for what we faced. 25,000 acres, two days of steady calling, we threw the whole arsenal at them. We called three coyotes that never came into shooting positions. That was in West Texas river bottom country....not PA.
Give me another shot at that ranch after that learning experience with some better scouting, different setups, leave the camera at home and I can almost bet that our success ratio will go up...because I know what to expect. The same is true of eastern callers who are patient, realistic and determined.....not pessimistic, negative and predicting failure before they ever start.
I think 1 in 11 stands is outstanding. Over the course of my calling I probably have averaged 3 or 4 in ten with the pendulum swinging to either of the far ends every once in a while. I have always felt that eastern callers should expect 1 in 15 to 20 if they are particular about what they do.
[ December 24, 2005, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted December 24, 2005 07:15 PM
Rich, I tried, I honestly tried. He did exactly what I told you he would do. Maybe you are right, it is time to let loose the hounds.
Get well my friend.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 24, 2005 07:26 PM
Here is my nomination....Byron for president! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I might take up PAyotehunter on his offer if I can take CBGC with me. If we can make 40 or 50 stands then we could get maybe 4 or 5 coyotes on film. I could get rich selling that video East of the Mississippi. Seriously.
That was a compliment CBGC not a jab. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted December 24, 2005 07:43 PM
Ronnie,
You may have something with the hormone deal. Send Rod some so he can get it to the cornbred lady and we will keep you posted. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Gerald,
President? President of what? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
If you take PAyotehunter up on his offer. I would like the chance to film it. We can split the profits with CBGC.
quote:
The same is true of eastern callers who are patient, realistic and determined.....not pessimistic, negative and predicting failure before they ever start.
This sentence best desbribes why attempts at most ventures either fail or succeed. Well put.
Byron
[ December 24, 2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 24, 2005 09:49 PM
Merry christmas! Group hug!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted December 24, 2005 11:58 PM
Ok, Byron wins the grand prize!
"I base this on the fact that he is more keenly aware of coyotes and their behavior through being able to observe them more."
This bit of fact is the Holy Grail in this whole topic. The lack of seeing Coyotes east is by far the biggest factor in why everyone there is having such a hard time. So much so that it leads to so many more aspects of the calling problem and has escalated into a huge no win situation there. For western hunters the learning curve helped by sight is tremendously steeper than the eastern counterpart. With such a lousy chance to gain knowledge on what's happening most have given up and/or resorted to "vocalizing" about it. Like Krusty mentioned the west coast is amazingly thick also. I was talking about this with my pop a couple hours ago and realized that I have only seen maybe 5-10 Coyotes on this side in the 40 years I've been here. I don't call here virtually at all (but I don't whine much about it either) so that isn't a factor there. But, with the terrain so steep and the vegetation so thick it takes a completely different mindset and process to call the timber. Most all the guys that have good success around here call mostly in the more open valleys. Some do well by my perspective in the timber too. Bud from this board seems to have a good system for brush hunting here. I feel that the eastern callers are going to have to stop paying attention to 90% of what most of the western hunters are doing and develope their own methods. A sage hunter is really in the dark about brush hunting unless he's been there.
[ December 25, 2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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PAyotehunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 764
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posted December 25, 2005 06:07 PM
Byron, Gerald,
Your welcome anytime, CBGC and I will be there Feb.3,4,5 there is room if you want to come then.
This was not a "challenge" it was an offer, an opportunity for successful callers to come to PA and give it a try and see first hand what everyone is "whining" about. This was not an offer in hopes to see someone fall on their face, I thought I could learn a few things in the process.
I never said it was easy out west, I know its not easy. I also never said "our" coyotes were smarter or coywolfs or coydogs, I believe they are different but still a coyote.
I believe all the whining is coming from guys that watch one of your DVD's and go out with unrealistic goals.
Posts: 57 | From: Northeast PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 25, 2005 08:28 PM
I value offers like that very much PAyotehunter. I really do appreciate it. It is hard to get to opportunities like that from so far away. That is usually right in our busiest season. Those particular days are in between a couple of events and would be hard to make this year. I will be wrapping up a hunt in Colorado for our next video at that time. Maybe next year. Keep me in mind. I want to do that real bad just so I can answer the critics who rightfully point out that I have not hunted PA.
And no.....I am not taking you Byron.
[ December 25, 2005, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted December 25, 2005 08:37 PM
This was a great thread and it took some crazy turns! I don’t post here too much because I am a little intimidated by the individuals that do. I guess I am afraid of saying something stupid and getting kicked around (U guys are tuff) but the east west thing changes that (home team type of thing).
GS, Didn’t take that as a jab at all, but U will not get 40 or 50 stands out of me in two weeks let a lone in a couple days. On average I spend at least an hour on each stand and it might take an hour or so to walk into the areas I hunt. I like to hunt bigwoods coyotes, their survival rate is better and they are bigger dogs (54 lbs filmed with the Sony HDR – FX1 (good stuff) coming soon).
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
Posts: 46 | From: PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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TheHuntedOne
Knows what it's all about
Member # 623
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posted December 25, 2005 09:44 PM
What I know about hunting coyotes in the west is what I have seen on the videos. and I would guess that is what most of us in the east know about it.
The problem with the videos is that hunters watch them, but they don't really see what is going on.
The coyotes on the videos don't just come right in. You don't see them go from point A to B in plain sight. They are there, then they duck behind something, then down in a gully and they are back again.
We miss the subtle way the western coyote uses what ever he can to keep in cover.
Is the Eastern Coyote smarter than the Western Coyote?
I don't think so. He just has more cover to work with, and uses it the same way his western cousin does when responding to the call.
Some might use the old addage "Go West young man" if you wand to kill lots of coyotes. I don't think you have to travel more than 15 feet. Up.
The woods here are thick, but they are also full of game trails. Some used heavily, some not, but they are there if you go find them. A day spent in the wood after a good snow will teach you more about the coyotes in your area then 10 years of calling blind.
If you have a remote E caller, set it just off a game trail, and get up in a tree stand a few yards off that trail and do your thing. No remote, set the speaker at the base of the tree and run your wire to you stand. You will get to see the coyotes coming from a lot farther off than if you were on the ground trying to find a gray, brown, black and tan animal in a forest full of gray black brown and tan trees, stumps leaves and fallen logs. Movement is easier to see from an elevated position.
Want a pretty sure bet to kill coyotes in the east? Find a deer yard, when the snow is deep and the air is cold.
Oh, and turn your e caller down. The land here rolls. It is not flat. Play your caller loud and it will echo in the little valleys and draws and it wont sound natural. Call the coyotes that are close, and move to the ones that are farther away. Don't try to call them in from over a mile away.
If you think our coyote populations are not as good as those out west, you might be right. But, New Hampshire tappers trapped 39% more coyotes this year than they did last year, and there were 4% fewer trappers. They trapped over 200% more than they did just 6 years ago, again with fewer trappers.
We've got lots of 35 and 40 pound coyotes in New Hampshire, and come winter, with all that fur, they sure look a lot bigger. We have a few that go over 50 and a few that top 60 pounds too. But most are closer to 40 or 45 pounds. Find one that is making a livng around the deer yards and you might just get a big one.
So are they really bigger? Maybe, and if so, I think that is because they do not have to expend as much energy to find food. Deer are plentiful, turkeys, rabbits, and they are in a more condensed area. I would bet most of our coyotes ranges here are smaller than those in the west because of this. They just have no reason to travel farther. Water is everywhere. Denning locations abound. If you eat good and the only place you travel to is the fridge from the lazy boy, chances are you are goning to gain weight too.
I don't know, this is just a eastern hunters prespective. I don't think the coyotes are smater, but I do think you have to be smarter to hunt them here. I also think it takes a bit more work than you might have to do out west. You don't have miles and miles of roads where you can just pull over and walk 100 yards and make a stand.
I know that if I hunted all winter, and only killed 5 or 6 coyotes, I would find something else to do with my time. If you make 100 stands in a season and don't see any coyotes, you might want to try something different, try to figure out why, if it is really important to you.
Of course all the above applies to where I hunt, and in the conditions I hunt in. It may not work for someone in the east who doesn't have snow, or deer yards, but I can bet that there is something that will work if you think about it some. It may be completely different that the way they do it out west, but who cares as long as it works in your area.
As for the DNA thing, did coyotes breed with wolves? All I can say is that after spending 21 years in the Marine Corps, when it comes to breeding, nothing would surprise me anymore. I've seen some strange stuff.
Al
THO Custom Game Calls
[ December 25, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: TheHuntedOne ]
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The On Line Resource For Custom Call Makers
THO Game Calls
Posts: 266 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 25, 2005 10:04 PM
quote:
I don’t post here too much because I am a little intimidated by the individuals that do.
Well, I think it's a shame that you feel that way and that we make you feel that way.
If this board exists for anything, it is to share ideas and talk about predator hunting. I really don't think we have many ego trips on Huntmasters, somebody would surely pull their pants down around their ankles.
Okay, we are long in the experience department, numbers of dead animals and years on the job. I haver yet to hear a real predator hunter act like he knows everything. Lot's of people that think they know it all, which is a big indication that they don't know it all.
I think the member that comes in and asks a legit question, not pretending that he knows everything, that is the type of person, and the type of question that is most likely to get some real pearls of wisdom in response; but it might be in code? Some folks just hate to spill their guts, so they just leak a little knowledge, here and there.
One thing for sure, if you hang in there, and read everything. Sooner or later, you will find something that you can apply to your personal situation. I can pretty much give you a money back guarantee on that issue. You are not wasting your time by reading this stuff.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted December 26, 2005 02:40 AM
I tell ya, I've enjoyed this particuliar post. More than any other I've [ever] read. Thought provoking for sure.
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Coyotes, I don't & probably never will consider myself a "caller". Hunter yes, not caller.
A couple things, that have taught me over the yrs of coyote.
Are, patterns in the snow,[when, where & why] for example.
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Leonard, your right...No one will "ever" know-it-all. Something I've learned while in the Fire-Service.
Even a "new-guy"[or gal], can teach you something now & then. As it is "impossible" to have "experienced everything"
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted December 26, 2005 06:54 AM
OK....big group hug...gather around now....don't be afraid to touch another guy....now squeeze real good.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2005 11:52 AM
You have me thinking that you've seen "that" movie, Gerald?
There are few things I find more repulsive.....oh ya know, if we were freezing and only had one sleeping bag; well maybe?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted December 27, 2005 07:24 AM
This IS one of the more fun threads as was stated eventhough Byron still has a loooong way to go before he reaches that 80# eastern plateau.
I was once told by an EPC expert that the bigger coyotes are typically found near big red barns.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted December 27, 2005 08:06 AM
Did the PADNR not do a study and find that some of their coyotes tested resembled 90%+ wolf DNA?
Related Species
The coyote is one of 8 species of the genus Canis. Four of these are jackals of Europe, Africa & Asia. Other members of the genus include the Gray Wolf (C. lupus), the Red Wolf (C. rufus) and all the breeds of the domestic dog (C. familiaris).
Then again, I've never seen a lot of combines in the southwest. Is this because the corn isn't corn or are conditions just unfavorable for rowcropping?
Either way, you guys in Az, Tx and Ca have it made when it comes to coyotes.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted December 27, 2005 08:15 AM
Yeah. You guys envy us for coyotes and we envy you for Whitetails. Somehow the trade-off doesn't seem quite fair.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Richard Grantham
Knows what it's all about
Member # 107
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posted December 27, 2005 08:24 AM
Nice coyote ! Since I'm nearly 72 have back surgery and bone spurs- nearly all coyotes are 50# or at least they seem to be :>).
Richard Grantham
Posts: 44 | From: Schertz, Tx | Registered: Feb 2003
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted December 27, 2005 05:10 PM
Jay
We need some of your music in the background when the page opens ![[Cool]](cool.gif) !
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
Posts: 46 | From: PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted December 27, 2005 05:16 PM
Eastern VS Western: same species,DIFFERENT critters!...This is the heading of an artical writtin by,Emory Josey.
I received a copy of-"predator Xtreme"-[where you can read the whole story] compliments of-AllPredatorCalls.com-and want to say thanks, Mr.AP Jones
The artical has a lot in there that pertains to what we all been discussing..I don't think its gone to change anyones thinking?'but'it is interesting reading.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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