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Author
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Topic: How fast do most coyotes run when running away from you?
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted April 11, 2007 09:41 AM
quote:
I think the effect of barrel swing is fairly significant, and math showing otherwise be damned...
Ditto. And I think if we get the math right, it will show the same thing.
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted April 11, 2007 09:46 AM
Tim,
That's too much math for me. But for the sake of argument, it does not take a bullet 2 seconds to reach 200 yards. The time of flight for a 53 gr. bullet, running 3800fps is .1830 seconds. The coyote ain't going far in that length of time.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 11, 2007 09:59 AM
The numbers i used Randy was just and example. If you go to page one at the top Scott already did the math for us.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 11, 2007 10:13 AM
DAA: "For me, this is all real simple, and basically goes back to what I think Tim first posted. I don't give anywhere near as much lead as the math in this thread suggest that I should. And I hit at least my fair share of running animals. So, my personal opinion, is that even if it were possible to instantaneously work out all this math at the time of the shot, it wouldn't be of any value to me anyway. And at the end of the day, the real answer is exceedingly simple - just go out and shoot at a lot of running animals and you'll get the hang of it (and likely realize how useless the math is...)."
DAA,
There is no question that there is no substitute for practice on running targets. I don't think anyone here is foolish enough not to realize that.
Most coyotes will be running at a different angle and different speeds but you still have to have a basic understanding of lead for each individual shooting style (swing and follow through). Will a chart be a substitute for experience when it comes to knowing those leads? Of course not!
There is no substitute for experience but you still need a starting point and thought process on lead. That's all this is no matter what the inevitable spin is.
If your shooting style happens to be that your swing follows the same speed as the coyote until you reach a point in front of that coyote, you squeeze the trigger and follow through, if that coyote is crossing the road in front of you at 25 mph and 200 yards away, your lead will have to be 6'. There is no arguing that. When that bullet leaves the barrel, it needs to be heading at a point 6' in front of the vitals of that coyote in order to hit it, period. You can change the swing and lead but you can't change the math.
Now either that is wrong and you can prove it's wrong or the math has value in understanding your lead in that situation WITH THAT SWING. I repeat, with that swing.
If you are not giving that much lead IN THAT SITUATION, than the coyote is closer, slower, at a different angle or you are swinging faster than the coyote. Which one is it because I highly doubt you will argue the math?
The bullet speed is constant, the angle in the above situation is 90 degrees (a coyote trying to cross the road in front of you which is a common situation), the distance is known, let's assume the coyote's speed is a flat 25 mph, the only variable in that situation is your swing.
I have a good friend that hunted coyotes in NE much the same way TA hunts them in MN. He told me that time and time again they would see a coyote run across the road in front of them heading to the other side of the section. Invariably, they would race to the corner, race to the next corner and by the time they got almost to the center of the section (1/2 mile - 1 mile - 1/2 mile), that coyote would cross the road just in front of them time after time. Now that is a very repeatable situation and knowing your lead in that situation could easily be applied repeatedly.
No matter whether you have a smooth swing with the speed of the coyote, whether you have a swing that is much faster than the coyote, whether you jerk, push or pull at the end of your swing as Randy Shaw does, or whether you stop in front and pull the trigger, each one of those situations STILL requires knowing the lead.
Experience will certainly teach you far more than you can ever learn from a chart. Nobody is arguing that but you can't argue the math in a known situation as the one described above which is the basis for the entire thought process behind leads.
I know where you and Tim are coming from but I also know the value in having a basic understanding of actual leads for KNOWN situations.
If this thread doesn't accomplish anything more than to give a novice a BASIC UNDERSTANDING of how much lead is required to shoot a hard running coyote traveling across the road in front of you at ABOUT 200 yards, then it has SOME value.
If this thread does nothing more than get everyone thinking about this, it has value.
To simply dismiss the math and say, "grab some shells and go practice" only leaves you to guess what the lead should be until you learn it.
Just the variance between shooting styles would render any chart basically worthless but a discussion of known situations gives anyone a basic understanding of lead.
This excercise was never about establishing a chart for each and every situation no matter how some of you want to spin it. Such a suggestion is insulting to me considering how many coyotes I have called and shot over the years. This is about a thought process on determining lead nothing more, nothing less.
Carry on!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 11, 2007 10:23 AM
Leonard: "You know what? Shooting at a running coyote is an invitation to failure. I try to resist the urge as much as possible? (I have heard there are ways of getting them to stop)"
I wholeheartedly agree but there is too many times where they simply won't stop (hard chargers) or you can't get the second one to stop after the shot.
I have tried every conceivable way I can think of to get that second coyote to stop and many times they do but there is simply enough times when they don't stop that you either learn to shoot running coyotes or you accept a lower level of success. Which brings us back to the "estrus chirp". LOL!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 11, 2007 10:34 AM
Randy Shaw: "But for the sake of argument, it does not take a bullet 2 seconds to reach 200 yards. The time of flight for a 53 gr. bullet, running 3800fps is .1830 seconds. The coyote ain't going far in that length of time."
First off, you need to divide 600 (200 yards) by 3800 to arrive at .158 seconds for 200 yards.
Then take your coyote speed of 36.6 fps (25 mph) and multiply it times .158 and see how far the coyote travels in that length of time.
Do you consider 5.8' far because that's how far he traveled if he was going 25 mph. If you jerk your gun before you pull the trigger and you are hitting the vitals, you are jerking the point of aim 5.8' in front of the vitals. You can't change the math.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted April 11, 2007 10:42 AM
So if I'm swinging my gun barrel left to right at a couple of miles an hour and the bullet spends about.000025 of a second in my barrel, I'm going to sling the bullet to the right?
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 11, 2007 10:49 AM
I could'nt take it any longer so i made two calls today. I called hornady and Sierra and talked to the guys in the ballistic department. From what we have decussed almost everyone is correct.
Scott's formula is correct a 6' lead is required for a moveing target. But the formula is figured with a stationary barrel. The correct lead would be half that (3')Scott and others where also correct. Both guys from Hornady and Sierra agreed on this. The time of flight and target speed, is what you have to lead for.
i asked Sierra what they reconmended for a fur bullet for coyotes. They said the 55 gr. spt.
I then asked Hornady what they recondmended, A 50 gr V-max and a 52 gr. A-max. As a fur friendly bullets. The 52 gr. A-max does have a thicker jacket compared to the ballistic tips.
I asked both about shoulder or shoulder blade hits and both agree you are going to get some nasty wounds no matter what bullet you use, some more than others.
leonard: i'm going to over look what you said about the 17 cal.. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 11, 2007 10:53 AM
Greenside,
It's an issue of where the barrel is actually pointing when the trigger is pulled as Rich Cronk correclty pointed out.
If your swing is faster than the coyote and you pull the trigger when that cross hair is at a certain point in front of the coyote, by the time the bullet leaves the barrel the barrel will actually be pointing ahead of where it was when you pulled the trigger because of the delay in the time it takes for your trigger finger to pull the trigger and the firing pin to fall. I don't think you are "slinging the bullet in the barrel". As you pointed out, a bullet traveling at 3800 fps is only in the barrel for .000526 of on second in a 24" barrel. That's not much time. LOL!
TA: "But the formula is figured with a stationary barrel."
What do they mean by that? A barrel that is traveling at the same speed as the coyote or a barrel that is not moving at all?
~SH~
[ April 11, 2007, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted April 11, 2007 11:02 AM
I'm confused,
quote:
The bullet speed is constant
and
quote:
First off, you need to divide 600 (200 yards) by 3800 to arrive at .158 seconds for 200 yards.
Bullets slow as they travel, a 3800fps bullet at the muzzle is what, 2900-3000fps at 200 yards?
I don't have a ballistics program handy so my 200 yard fps is a guess based off DAA's post in another thread, but regardless, the bullet is slowing right?
So wouldn't the lead need to be more since the bullet is slowing?
Or am I missing something?
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted April 11, 2007 11:05 AM
Also, when a coyote is running 25mph, your barrel is not swinging 25mph, it's pivoting on an axis (your shoulder). The farther away the coyote, 200 yards, 300 yards, etc, the slower you rifle pivots on the axis to keep up with the 25mph target.
But regardless, the rifle barrel is swinging so slow, maybe 1fps?, that it can't have any effect. Can it?
Again, still trying to understand the math and physics behind this.
Edit: one thing I've learned from being on here, it's better to miss infront than behind, hitting behind the coyote makes him run faster in the same direction he's travelling, however hitting infront of him sometimes turns him to running more straight away, offering a better higher percentage followup shot. So I error on the side of more lead. thanks!
later,
scruffy
[ April 11, 2007, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 11, 2007 11:08 AM
Scruffy,
You are correct. I was talking in terms of IF we know the average velocity.
A bullet leaving the barrel at 3800 fps is probably traveling an average speed of 2850 (GUESSING BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE BULLET CHARTS) in 200 yards.
That means in 200 yards it takes that bullet .211 of a second to travel that far.
I didn't know the average velocity so I just used muzzle velocity.
Instead of the 5.8' lead for a 3800 fps muzzle velocity (figured as an average velocity above), 7.7' would be the correct lead if the average velocity was 2850.
~SH~
[ April 11, 2007, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted April 11, 2007 11:10 AM
Ok, average velocity makes the math make more sence to me now! Thanks wiley!
later,
scruffy
[ April 11, 2007, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 11, 2007 11:14 AM
Yes Scruffy the bullet does slow down. a bullet vel. of 3900 from muzzle. and vel. at 100 yds is 3445 fps at 200 its 3024 fps...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 11, 2007 11:18 AM
Average velocity of 3462 at 200 yards if the muzzle velocity is 3900.
~SH~
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted April 11, 2007 11:21 AM
and I'll guess I'll toss my two cents in on how fast they run away from me, even though it's the same thing I posted in another thread.
When I miss a coyote and he hears the "zing" of the bullet, a loud intimidating sound in his personal space, he runs for the next county. If he doesn't hear a "zing", I hit low becuase of a gross range mis estimation, a branch deflected the bullet, etc, the coyote isn't nearly as spooked by the far off boom from my rifle. He might stand and stare, walk or trott off, or even approach me but that probably only happens when the echos are just right and he thinks he's moving away from the boom.
Regardless, my answer is "it depends", on if the coyote heard a "zing" or not.
that's why on long shots if I'm not totally sure of the range or holdover I'll be conservative and not shoot over the coyote, hoping that if I do error that I'll get another crack at the coyote. Twice this winter I shot low on long range coyotes and both I was able to get back on and have a closer followup shot than the initial shot because of working the calls, relocating, and just a lot of good luck, LOL. When I've shot over a coyote it's almost always game over.
And, in line with my post a couple higher in this thread, I'm more aggressive in my lead, I'll lead as much as I think and if I'm not totally sure I'll lead a little more, so in the very least I'll miss infront, hopefully turning the coyote for a higher percentage shot at the coyote running more straight away and not so perpendicular.
So I try to kill the coyote on the first shot, but if I'm not sure on the shot I error on the side that will give me the best or better next shot.
later,
scruffy
[ April 11, 2007, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted April 11, 2007 11:24 AM
Scott,
When I said jerk, I was referring to the trigger. The push or pull is something I do with my left hand to insure follow-thru. It is just a gentle continuation of the rifle in it's path.
When the rifle goes boom, the sight picture I see is the crosshairs on fur and most of the time this fur is on the coyote's head.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to hold on a running coyote. Just saying what works for me. I think anyone willing to try this technique would be surprised, especially on coyotes around 100 yards. And besides, what a better place to start. Shoot directly at the coyote and observe the results.
One other note.
I have seen guys swear that they shot behind a coyote and the shot was actually slightly in front. After they had recovered from the recoil and took a peek, the coyote had made one more jump. The cloud of dust had time to develop, but in that half second, now appeared behind the coyote making it look like the shot was behind.
Randy
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted April 11, 2007 12:05 PM
Wiley
Are you using duplex or mil-dot reticles? Might be some application there where you could at least ballpark and still hold on fur.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 11, 2007 12:22 PM
quote:
If you are not giving that much lead IN THAT SITUATION, than the coyote is closer, slower, at a different angle or you are swinging faster than the coyote. Which one is it because I highly doubt you will argue the math?
Well... Yes and no. I don't argue that the formulas aren't accurate for the variables they contain. I just don't think they are the correct formulas for the situation. As in, I don't think the formulas are accounting for all the significant variables - such as barrel swing.
I have no formula, and certainly no proof that barrel swing is as significant a factor as I believe it is. Hell, maybe I'm wrong, and it's not barrel swing, but something else entirely that makes a signficant difference not being accounted for by the formulas. My experience though, makes me believe that barrel swing is the significant variable not being accounted for. An example of why I believe so, and it is directly related to Leonard's ealier point about shooting off of sticks or a bipod etc. I know for a fact, that I tend to hit coyotes too far back, or shoot behind them when I'm shooting off of sticks. Same sight picture as when I'm shooting offhand from the standing position, swiveling at the hips, but my bullets strike further back than I'm expecting. I believe it is because of the difference in my barrel swing when shooting off the sticks vs. offhand. So, most of the time, when a running shot is called for, I ditch the sticks and jump to my feet to make the shot.
quote:
quote:
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I think the effect of barrel swing is fairly significant, and math showing otherwise be damned...
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Ditto. And I think if we get the math right, it will show the same thing.
That sums up my position pretty well, right there. But I also believe that there is so much variable, or variation involved in the swing itself, that it can't be modeled mathematically with any degree of consistent accuracy.
I'm not too clear on what TA17 was trying to communicate from Sierra and Hornady. But I think he said that they agree, barrel swing can account for reducing the lead by as much as half? I tend to think it can reduce lead by even more, based on the simple forumula numbers and my experience. But Hell, I don't know if that's even what he meant.
Again though, all I know, for sure, is that I don't give nearly as much lead as the formula says I should. And that works for me.
And I'm not suggesting that Wiley, or anyone else is seriously considering using charts or anything like that in the field. This is just kicking ideas around here. No sweat. I am suggesting though, that my opinion, is that these formulas being used in this thread actually do not give even a good starting point. My opinion is that they give a very misleading picture of how to actually shoot running animals. But, that's just my opinion. I have no facts or figures to back it up.
quote:
I have seen guys swear that they shot behind a coyote and the shot was actually slightly in front.
Yup. I've got a couple of these on video. Guy shoots in front of coyote, but swears he hit behind.
Oh, by the way, on the tanks, yes the computers do include the speed of the tank in the calculations. They have to. Else they would miss. By a lot.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted April 11, 2007 01:08 PM
I'd bet that the Sierra and Hornady boys were first talking about a stationary barrel. Anything else gets real complex real fast.
The usual math on this first figures lead from a stationary barrel. That's the basic fact of how far ahead the bullet has to be heading to account for movement of the target during the time of flight. As said, whatever the sight picture looks like and however the shooter achieves that lead, you have to have that correct lead or you miss. We can't fudge the physics.
Whoever mentioned pivot is on to the concept better than swing or sideways movement of barrel expresses it. In pivot, we are talking about angles, and it only takes a tiny difference in hand held physical angle to impart a big change in impact point at 200 yards.
Interesting stuff but I'm out of here for a few days. Real world work and travel sure gets in the way of hunting and fishing, and talking about them. Shoot straight, or rather in this context, shoot however it takes to hit what you're intending.
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted April 11, 2007 01:26 PM
Abrams tanks do the math thru computer controlled fire. They hit moving targets while moving.
Lots of physics involved when you take swing into account. As the bullet gets farther down the barrel while swinging ,it is accelerating horizontally because the muzzle has to travel farther than the chamber . After leaving the muzzle, forward and horizontal velocity start to diminish,wind,temperature,atmospheric pressure blah,blah,blah..Even If I do all the math it would not help. .I just shoot until I hit them and let Albert Eistein worry about the rest.thanks
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 11, 2007 03:09 PM
I have hunted pheasants for many years. One of the most difficult shots for me was always a high fast flying rooster coming right at me. I went to a steel shot shooting seminar once and the instructor told me that this was a very easy shot to make if you simply used the correct lead. He said to start directly below that bird and chase it until your barrel covered up the bird. As soon as the bird disappeared behind your barrel you pulled the trigger and followed through. Since that time I have crushed many pheasants with that lead.
DAA,
You could be right. Perhaps swing is the missing variable here but it's difficult to put into perspective because that coyote, if it's running 25mph, is still going to travel 7' from the time the bullet leaves the barrel to the time that bullet travels the 200 yards to the coyote. Somehow the swing and lead in combination has to be carrying that bullet that 7' but to the human eye, the lead might appear to be less than 7'.
What puzzles me is that this article descibed the swing and follow through but still held to the math. Since I know the math is accurate, perhaps the author was also mislead on the impact of the swing. Thanks for your objectivity and your point is taken.
~SH~
[ April 11, 2007, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted April 11, 2007 04:16 PM
quote:
Reminds me of the young caller and the old coyote caller. The young caller says lets run down the hill and get us a coyote, the old caller replies, "Lets walk down and get them all"
Thats not the joke Tim. Its about a young bull and an old Bull. Im sorry but i hate to see you butcher a joke like that, besides we know we cant call them all,,,,right??? seriously im just razzin ya!!
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted April 11, 2007 04:29 PM
swinging the barell changes the perception of lead. I'm surprised that no has brought up the can on the string. Take a can or any weight for that matter swing it around your head and let go of the string. the can does not curve forward. it goes out in a straight line. Your bullet does the same thing. Swinging your rifle allows for a more consitant lead rather than trying to hold a stationary barrel and trying to guess when the right time to pull the trigger is.
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 11, 2007 04:34 PM
And speaking of pheasants, isn't it odd how some guys can shoot the lights out with a shotgun, but can't hit a moving target with a rifle to save thier ass, and then there are those that are visa-versa!
I've got a brother that kills running coyotes on a regular basis with his rifle, but when it comes to quail, pheasant or dove, you better be ready to shoot clean-up around him!
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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