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Author
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Topic: Long range coyotes
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted May 16, 2007 06:02 PM
Especially when golf balls and footballs are throwed in the mix, eh Dave? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
You did a fine job. Thanks for sharing. Wish you were closer, we would fire up a pair of these El Rey Del Mundos I told you I was ordering. My current favorite. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted May 16, 2007 06:10 PM
Great iformation Melvin. now I know not to shoot if its windy LOL
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 16, 2007 07:27 PM
The way I understand it; is along Leonards line of thinking. Somewhat like a deffensive player trying to swat a ball when it is being thrown, and touching it with his fingertips and upsetting its course, versus making contact with it a few feet from the intended reciever. Something like that:)
I do give some creedence to "time of flight", as I understand it from the "experts", this has to be a consideration, the less time it's in flight, the less time the wind has to push it off course.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted May 16, 2007 07:38 PM
My 55g HPBT at 3800 fps mv. will drift 1.24 inches at 100 yds at 10 mph wind. At 3000 fps mv. it will drift 1.66 inches. A full half inch more drift at a slower muzzle velocity. Down range as velocity sheds the affect of the same 10 mph wind is exponential. Velocity is our friend for fighting wind drift and trajectory. Heavier bullets and higher BC's are just more ways to fight it.
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted May 16, 2007 07:46 PM
It's all about time of flight. The less time the bullet has to be affected by an outside force the less the effects of that force.
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted May 16, 2007 07:51 PM
When a football or an arrow gets nocked of course it continues on that course until another force gets involved. As a bullet flies through the air the wind continues to affect it as long as the wind continues to blow.
[ May 16, 2007, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 16, 2007 08:22 PM
quote:
I get the feeling you guys won't believe them anyway. DAA
That's far from true, Dave. If you said shit was peanut butter, I'd at least taste it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I respect what you say about anything to do with rifles.
However, I think the question deserves a fair hearing,
if we can boil it down to MV versus downrange velocity, which is more of a factor.
#2) wind close to the gun, or wind closer to the coyote.
I tried to pick a good but not great BC at .400 and was actually thinking 25'06 on the cartridge, middle of the road, if it matters to anybody, or they need an example to make their point. But, if you need some different data, let's see it.
I don't know the answer, to be honest, but I think I might be able to understand it, if somebody can explain it on my level.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 16, 2007 09:40 PM
MV & bc & time of flight are all important but that isn`t what I understand as the real issue, let me take a stab at an explanation.
What Albert & Dave are saying about the wind deflection at the muzzle is 100% true but it isn`t a mystical phenomenon that makes it so it`s merely the fact that when the bullet is deflected at or near the muzzle it changes, by a certain # of degrees, the path of the bullet in contrast to the path that represents the point of aim, for instance, if the bullet is deflected an inch in the first 50 yds how far off of the POA will it be at 600yds?,........... if that same bullet flys perfectly straight for 550yds & then is deflected by that same wind in the last 50 yds of flight, how far off is the POI compared to the POA?.......... do the math & compare those 2 answers & it really becomes quite clear that Dave is right, that`s what the charts say also.
As far as golf goes......when those stuck up bastards let me take a rifle on the golf course with me I`ll report back with my findings.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted May 17, 2007 02:27 AM
Okay Leonard, I'll post the numbers the computer spit out then.
Here are the basic numbers generated by Exbal, for my .17 Predator, shooting a bullet with a BC of .270, at 4050 fps MV, at 4500' elevation. I only ran just a couple of numbers, as I think that's all that is needed - again, you guys are making this way too complicated. Keep in mind, the software is assuming a constant wind accross the entire distance.
Wind deflection with MV of 4050 fps:
200 yd - 2.7"
400 yd - 11.7"
600 yd - 29.0"
Okay, now, the remaining velocity at 400 yards is 2718 fps. So lets run the program again, only plug in a MV of 2718 and see what the deflection is for 200 yards. If I'm understanding you guys, your saying it should be at least as much as the 17.3" it was deflected in the last 200 yards above. But, instead, computer says:
MV 2718 fps:
200 yd - 4.5"
Which totally jibes with any reality I've ever experienced. I'm out the door, going to shoot some 'chucks today. Which is about as close to "long range" shooting as I generally get. Will probably pop a few at beyond 600 yards today. Usually do, anyway. I won't give much thought to any of this on those longer shots though. I never do. I'll just hold off what feels right and let fly...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Pilgrim on Earth
Knows what it's all about
Member # 314
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posted May 17, 2007 08:40 AM
quote:
I'll put it to a vote. Can Andy reduce the conversation to golfballs? Just Andy, nobody else! Yes or no?
I vote yes. That is, until such a time as Andy realizes he doesn’t know that much about golfballs either, then he will misdirect said conversation on another tangent, all the while kicking TA in the head at every opportunity (for reasons too numerous to list, but of those including masking the reality that TA actually knows more about golfballs than he does).
(Take it easy Andy. All in good fun.)
Posts: 54 | From: Indiana | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2007 09:17 AM
Ow! I bet the truth hurts? TA knows more stuff than Andy?
I agree with Dave that we are making this a lot more complicated than necessary. In fact, I use his same attitude when banging away at chucks or coyotes, just touch it off when it feels good.
Too bad the data doesn't fit the question a little better, for my money. The only thing I see, for sure, is that the bullet is deflected more at a lower velocity.
The whole question is: canyon situation. Wind is blowing on one side but not on the other. Well, I have always used the information I have, at the muzzle, because I cannot determine wind speed or precise direction, out yonder. But, the way I read Dave's data, it does seem to be that the wind at the muzzle has more influence, deflecting a bullet, or an arrow off it's aimed trajectory. That's what I have always done, but for some reason, I thought that, (as the bullet slowed) it was influenced by wind a lot more, just as the drop becomes more pronounced the further you get downwind.
Therefore, the RESULT is that wind close to the shooter blows the bullet further because it actually is like an arrow glancing off a slippery rock. So, there are two answers. Yes, the wind close to the shooter moves the point of impact the most, but the bullet is moved more , as a percentage, at the slower speed, down range.
It's a guessing game, just be aware of how much influence the wind has on a bullet, take the shot, or decline, as you wish.
Anybody else reading the tea leaves a little differently?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted May 17, 2007 03:22 PM
I don't by the arrow example at all! An arrow shot at 50 yards with a 25 mph crosswind is not going to hit dead center without the same attitude given a rifle bullet! You need wind lead as you would a rifle bullet, it won't be as pronounced as the distance is far shorter and most arrows and heads combine to make up 370-415 grains of total weight, sure a slug won't deflect as much either because of the mass weight and shorter distance.
I shoot a bow and the vanes/feathers catch wind and you get porpoise action in windy conditions and at extended ranges a true 10x will have to have some lead for wind at greater distances.
If I had a bullet that could go 10,000 FPS what do you think wind drift would be at 600 yards more or less than the same bullet traveling at 5,000 fps? Time in flight to the target makes a differance, the longer the forces of gravity/cross wind have to work the more pronounced "generally" it will be.
Doesn't make a differance of rifle bullet or arrow.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 17, 2007 09:10 PM
That may be true Whacker but have you ever tried to shoot a golf ball with your bow at 600 yds in high wind?
quote:
Yes, the wind close to the shooter moves the point of impact the most, but the bullet is moved more , as a percentage, at the slower speed, down range.
Leonard, that sums it up fairly well by my simplistic understanding of it, this stuff is entertaining to talk about & it is useful to know but I would bet that most of us adjust for windage & drop without thinking too much about any of this.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted May 18, 2007 04:59 AM
JD, not only did I shoot at the golfball with my bow... I hit it... 610 yds... 50lb longbow... cedar arrow.... visualization and hallucenation are great techniques in reaching success...
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted May 18, 2007 05:19 AM
Norm, you been lickin toads again? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted May 18, 2007 05:44 AM
A.L.-UUUUMMMM YUMMY,lickin Toads!!
Must be the off season, golf ,footballs,?
LOL
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 18, 2007 06:31 AM
Norm, you been gettin into some of Andys shine? Actually I believe every word of it, after all look at some of the other claims on this thread.
Havent` seen you around for a while, how you been?
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted May 18, 2007 07:55 AM
How much wood could a Woodchuck chuck, if a Woodchuck could chuck wood?
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted May 18, 2007 05:59 PM
Randy,
A woodchuck would chuck, as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck, if a wood chuck could chuck wood.
( Finally a question that I can answer)
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 18, 2007 07:24 PM
Tim,.........Would that be Standard or Metric units???
I vote that we change JD's sig line to; "Rosie is a pig.....let's feed her to a third world Muslim country."
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted May 18, 2007 09:01 PM
quote:
A woodchuck would chuck, as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck, if a wood chuck could chuck wood.
Not if I'm around he ain't...
I just love launching those big rats .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted May 18, 2007 09:17 PM
Dave, I just started turning necks on some Lapua brass for my 6.5x284 that was built by GAP. I hope to one day get to shoot some of those big rats. That may be on my list for trips in the next couple years.
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 19, 2007 10:03 AM
Great vid/clip. You just ruined some PETATROLL's breakfast.
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slydog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 389
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posted May 19, 2007 10:30 AM
Well I know I'm late bet I thought I would add my 2 cents worth.
Q:"When does a shot become long range? At what distance does the shot become risky?"
Well sir, I think, a shot becomes long range when you have to use gestamation or when you dope for the shot.
as far as risky, well there are many variables that change the risk level, wind, heat, humidity and a host of others that drive the risk factor up. Confidance and ability are gained through burnt powder and lots of it.
This is the bottom line. Every hunter should know his or her own level of ability and should know for themselfs what is or isn't a risky shot.
It realy is up to the shooter to police themself.
For me long range starts at 400 and if I feel the risk is to high I just wait for the right time to ccome. I don't normaly take shots I don't feel are going to produce results.
I have been known to strech the tape
Thats my 2 cents FWIW
sly
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
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