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Author
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Topic: Eastern Coyotes
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222
Knows what it's all about
Member # 567
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posted February 13, 2005 05:40 AM
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222, hit on a critical factor….”if they are in the area”. In Pa, your coyotes travel a number of miles in their home range. If you only have access to a few hundred acres you simply have to be lucky enough to catch them passing through when you happen to be calling within hearing.
That is very true. I have acess to arround 300 acres (arround my house) and am able to pattern the coyote. On average, they are in this area every 3-4 days. However, their patterns change. Lately (past few months), they are only comming through every week or so. The only factor I can see that has changed this is food. Pa is going through a drastic deer herd reduction which IMOP might be having a trickle down effect causing predators to change. Now I am not saying that the coyote sole source of food is deer either, but I am sure the reduction has had some impact.
quote:
Consider this, the fact that you only get a few seconds to shoot at eyes within shot gun range means to me that coyotes must be callable in Pa…just under very difficult conditions brought on by terrain….not coyote intelligence.
Let me share a recent experience that has become the "norm" for me. Last fri. night, my wife came in from taking the dog out and informed me the coyote were out. I decided to go out and try to call them. I took a stand overlooking a field and started with a howel. To make a long story short, we went back and forth for about 1 hour. Also in that time frame I mixed a few distress and puppy wines. Then all of the sudden I get a different howel followed by kee-kee.This came from the opposite direction. After another half hour of no responce, I called it quits. So can I say I called them in, yes. However, I was not sucessful because they refused to cross that line and come in closer. Both set of coyotes stayed about 150 yrds into the woods. Now one will say that I should of set up differently but like I said, this has become the norm for me and the same scenero has taken place over varied terrain.
quote:
You have pointed out the fact that Pa callers are mainly night hunters. Why is that? Is it because of their belief that coyotes are nocturnal and travel only at night? I have heard many Pa deer hunters talk about how many coyotes they have seen from their deer stands. So why not call for them in the daytime?
I can only answer this based on my own experience but I have found that night hunting is more productive. I have yet to have a coyote respond to my calling during daylight.
Hodgen stated the facts on the deer hunters. When you get close to 1 million deer hunters marching arround the woods, they are going to push the coyote out. A Pa deer hunter will drop a coyote in a hartbeat. To some, a coyote is a bigger trophy than a whitetail. Also, none of these deer hunters are calling. Their success is based on oppertunity.
Another factor is that this sport is creating a lot of popularity among sportsman, mainly due to the contests that have spured up in the last few years. More and more sportsman are comming out to try to get a yote for that top cash prize. I belive along with that , a smarter coyote is the result. Like stated, they are able to tell the fox-pro from the loudmouth etc.
GS, please do not be offended by my posting style of quoting you. I just find it easier to respond directly. It is not ment to pick at you like some do on boards.
I must say, this thread is one of the better ones I have seen in a long time. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ February 13, 2005, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: 222 ]
Posts: 10 | From: Pa | Registered: Feb 2005
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222
Knows what it's all about
Member # 567
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posted February 13, 2005 06:23 AM
One note I forgot to add:
More and more turkey hunters are telling me thay are seeing coyote respond to their turkey calls. A few have stated that the coyote has even gone so far to attack the decoy. Mabey we should start thinking like turkey hunters.
Posts: 10 | From: Pa | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 13, 2005 07:03 AM
Gobble Gobble Gobble....... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Except we run into that goofy "food source decoy" regulation 222. But that is slated to change sometime in the near future.
And these guys are dealing with spring time coyotes, so fur isn't good, and the coyotes are on extra duty feeding a litter. If ya wanna have some real fun, use a goose call near a river around June when the gosslings are moving about.
But that brings up another quirk.
Considering you have thousands of hunters in the field. All are in full cammo and whatnot. Everyone of them are using a call of some sort. The coyote is at its most vulnerable because it's feeding a litter. But yet it's still only isolated cases of turkey hunters reporting coyote responses. Although they are exciting for them when they do happen. I still wouldn't classify it as productive.
Maybe I am just spoiled because of my travels, and 5 responses a year with intense calling is all PA has to offer. But I can't get past the fact that "sign" tells me there are ample supply of coyotes, and trappers and houndsmen can pull 30 some coyotes out of a much smaller area than callers do. I know their tactics are more productive by nature, but the bottom line is the coyotes are there. And if they are there, we should have better success calling them.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 13, 2005 07:04 AM
222,
You finally hit the nail on the head. I deal with alot of eastern hunters every year in the outfitting business. I get almost the same replys out of them consistantly when talking about turkeys and coyotes. They all claim that the eastern turkey is the wileyest critter in the woods. They say that they are way smarter and harder to hunt than coyotes. I say B.S., but most of them aren't coyote hunters, so of course the arguement ensues. My point being that if the average eastern coyote hunter put as much time and effort into their coyote hunting as they do their turkey hunting, they would be far more successful. If they spent the same amount of time learning to call, the same amount of money on equipment, the same amount of time locating and scouting, etc. they would be far more successful coyote hunters. The other thing that I have noticed with these guys is the difference if I happen to take them coyote or turkey hunting. If you are turkey hunting, they hunker down and hide, and actually sit still, because they think the turkey is so smart and can see so well. Take the same guy coyote hunting and he sits like a five year old with too much Pepsi and a case of poison ivy. They look for the highest place to sit, so they can see them coming! You'd swear it wasn't the same person!
[ February 13, 2005, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 13, 2005 07:18 AM
Cal,
I don't know if I would classify a turkey in PA as intellegent or wiley. Pretty much considered them kind of stupid to be honest. I used to shoot them in the fall with my bow, out of boredom, when the seasons overlapped with archery. I wrecked quite a few arrows and broadheads on them.
I am sure there are alot of eastern coyote hunters who screw up setting stands, not sitting still and lacking equipment. But then on the other hand, there are just as many setting good stands, hunkering down, and have the best of everything.
If it was something as simple as that, I would think there would be at least one group of callers consistantly taking coyotes. Seems everyone is sucking wind.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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222
Knows what it's all about
Member # 567
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posted February 13, 2005 07:52 AM
quote:
Except we run into that goofy "food source decoy" regulation 222. But that is slated to change sometime in the near future.
Last I hear that was dead in the house. I bet those turkey hunters do not know that if they do bag a yote while hunting with a decoy, they are in violation.
quote:
They all claim that the eastern turkey is the wileyest critter in the woods. They say that they are way smarter and harder to hunt than coyotes. I say B.S.,
I agree 500%! You are correct, most are not predator hunters.
quote:
My point being that if the average eastern coyote hunter put as much time and effort into their coyote hunting as they do their turkey hunting, they would be far more successful. If they spent the same amount of time learning to call, the same amount of money on equipment, the same amount of time locating and scouting, etc. they would be far more successful coyote hunters.
I think you hit the nail on that one! When I started out in this sport, I would find and call an area I thought was good. Typically, it would be a ridgeline that I could see out 200yrds. I would think to myself this is a great spot for coyote. I would drive arround and look for this type of area. What I was not doing was seeing if the coyote were there. It wasn't till I spent a lot of wasted time did I realize I was going about it in the wrong way. I am sure that there are a lot of others who think along the lines that I did. Once I changed my thinking, I started to see responce to my efforts. I still should spend more time but due to family and work, I am limited.
Posts: 10 | From: Pa | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 13, 2005 08:02 AM
Cal's observation mirrors my own. This past year I videoed hunts with Tom Bechdal in Pa. and Brent Saxton in Ohio. Both are competition turkey hunter/callers and both are successful coyote callers. Both utilize their respective turkey hunting disciplines on the coyote stand. They both literally disappear, they both remain absolutely still even when calling and both pay attention to the wind when setting up. Both KNOW coyotes are present, rather than hope, and both call during the day. Their respective calling techniques are identical including the sounds they offer the coyotes and both reputably call more coyotes than most in their areas.
Having said that it is a plain fact that some pressured, experienced coyotes are uncallable. They even cease long range inter-pack vocalizations. The caller that does not quit, that continues to experiment with different techniques and sounds in a positive and optimistic methodology, will quite probably become very good at this.
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted February 13, 2005 08:40 AM
quote:
I decided to go out and try to call them. I took a stand overlooking a field and started with a howel. To make a long story short, we went back and forth for about 1 hour.
Does anyone have any real experience relating to two real coyotes working on each other for an hour? I suspect that would be a very unnatural occurence and that a real coyote would suspect something was up. I wonder why they don't cross the line.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 13, 2005 09:13 AM
Rich,
Is this hunt video with Tom Bechdal available for sale? I'd enjoy seeing it immensly. Years back some real impressive numbers were posted concerning this guy and coyotes he killed in PA. I bumped into him on a message board somewhere, and made the offer to flip the bill for expenses to just tag along for a 3 day hunt to observe. He never responded to my post and disappeared.
He himself is the one guy I would like to see hunt the Mosquito Creek contest. When asked about such an endeavor, if I remember right, was "it wouldn't be fair for a pro to compete in such an event".
When it comes to this guy. If he is killing the numbers like I heard. I am going to need to see results with my own two eyes.
[ February 13, 2005, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2005 10:16 AM
Hodgen, I don't know this fella, Tom Bechdal, but from what Rich has told me, he seems to know what he is doing, but their hunt wasn't very productive.
My comment, however, involves the things a person says, and what another chooses to believe. I could say things that the average easterner could not comprehend, as to successful coyote hunting. I can't force a listener to believe what I say, and I don't care if he believes. In some cases, it is a waste of time, trying to convince some people, so you just have to listen and make a judgement and probably retain some doubt? I wouldn't go on a crusade to convince everyone of my claims; again, a waste of time.
So, you have Mr. Bechdal. He might spend every weekend making believers out of non believers, and the odds are that some will go away unconvinced, successful or not. It's a no win situation. I imagine skinner 2 feels the same way after telling folks about his success. Sometimes you wish you had not said anything, right?
Another thing about Pennsylvania and eastern situation, in general. The mention was that night hunting appears to be more successful, even if it only affords sightings, and not dead coyotes.
Well, if you have houndsmen, and deer hunters and trappers, and shooting every road crosser you see....AND these guys are harassing the animals every night, dusk to dawn, and doing it in the most unproductive manor, namely: "spotlighting" then you will see coyotes, and you probably won't kill too many of them.
This is a program guaranteed to give every coyote a University education, with the ability to distinguish Johnny Stewart sounds from Foxpro.
Is it any wonder that these guys are crying the blues? It is a scenario for massive failure, blaming everything but missing the point, completely.
Coyote hunting is actually stillborn in a place where they have a million hunters, all dressed up with no place to go!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 13, 2005 11:10 AM
Hey Leonard,
I am more than willing to listen to what anyone has to say, and try and extract what is useful without ridicule. I'll also give anyone the benifit of the doubt and the chance to prove himself if he feels the urge. Lord knows I traveled coast to coast to hunt with different people in pursuit of learning about coyotes both east and west.
Some trips have been productive, others have not. But I don't base my judgement on results of a hunt. I base my judgement on my ability to read people when I meet them, and what the ground and surroundings tell me when I am there.
I've heard some big claims attached to that name concerning coyote kills in PA. But for me to accept value in those claims it going to have to be proven to me because my surroundings don't show me it. But I am not arrogent to call such claims bullshit before a chance is given to prove them.
One other point I would like to make concerning the pressure on coyotes. Yes we have a lot of hunters in Pa. But you only have the onslaught of pressure about one week of the rifled deer season, a few days of bear, and a fair amount when we have this one major coyote contest.
PA distributes roughly about 23,000 fur-taker tags a year. The majority of these sold are trappers and houndsmen. And a fur-taker tag is required for night hunting coyote during any of the big game seasons. Some sort of big game season is running from Oct through January. The coyotes are not under the intense pressure nightly as it sounds, except maybe in a few popular locations by locals.
[ February 13, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yellerdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 356
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posted February 13, 2005 12:17 PM
Like Hodgen, I am not buying the deer hunting pressure as any reason whatsoever for lack of coyote calling success. We have as many and probably more deer hunters in Michigan. We also have longer seasons.
If that's the reason for lack of calling success then I would rarely see or kill a coyote.
Skinner 2 and I met up this morning for a hunt, We called four locations. One setup each. On the first setup, I howled, Skinner 2 shot and one coyote died. The next three stands were unproductive. That's right around our average. If the one in five stands average holds true, then we can expect to get one on second setup next weekend. Might be the first or we may go without one.
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Lee Smith
Remember, we meet at dawn.
Posts: 59 | From: Southeastern Michigan | Registered: Jul 2004
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted February 13, 2005 03:29 PM
Larry Darby, welcome to the website. I live in southern Mo. I went for a year and a half before I called in a coyote and actually killed it. I told my buddy who was with me on that hunt that there lay a $500.00 coyote. He asked how that could be? Itold him that with all the calls, videos, camo, gas etc. it had to be about that much. I shot a pair four weeks ago today, and have been out calling every weekend since, with no call-ins or shots fired. Do not give up. Sometimes calling close to a dead cow, deer etc. will get results if they are located in the right spot. I can hardly wait until late May, early June to see if puppy distress will work here. Good luck, and try to take gerald up on his offer. Adios.
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 13, 2005 03:30 PM
Hodgen, I'm afraid I can't help you at this time.
I too had heard the rumors and hype surrounding Mr. Bechdal, which is why I proposed the video hunt with him. He readily and happily accepted. I spent three days with him, calling in gale force winds and rain, trees sometimes bent at 90 degrees. We saw no coyotes. He did show me his scrapbook photos and he spoke freely in front of his significant other and her sons. They showed no indication that he told anything other than the truth. I can generally tell when someone is "embellishing". I had no sense of that when listening to Tom. Having hunted with him I have no doubt that he can call coyotes consistantly. However, numbers just don't quite add up and a question mark remains. We have agreed to another hunt next year, hopefully under ideal conditions for the camera.
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Rich Higgins
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posted February 13, 2005 03:43 PM
Baldknobber, I lived in the Branson area and can assure you that puppy distress works well in that area, ALL YEAR LONG. Coyotes do not react or respond to stimuli, in this case calls, in a logical or thoughtful manner. No coyote, upon hearing a puppy distress in January, will consult a calendar and think to himself that he should not be hearing this sound until June. They respond to the calls instinctually, without conscious thought. That said, have you given any thought to how you are going to feel instinctually when you kill a wet bitch in June and realize that a den full of puppies are quite probably going to die slowly and very unpleasantly because of what you have done?
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted February 13, 2005 04:22 PM
Rich,
It's a shame the weather wasn't in your favor. We had high hopes when Byron South came up for a PPHA picnic and to hunt. But he walked smack into Hurricane Ivan, and even if they would have called a coyote, it most likely would have been wearing a life jacket. But we all managed a good time at the picnic.
It's tough to tell with the weather you guys hit, but did you happen to see that much sign, that such a concentration of coyotes is possible?
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted February 13, 2005 05:33 PM
Hodgen, that is the first I have heard of anyone doing that style of hunting in Pa. All I can say in my sassiest voice is “you go man”. You earned a lot of respect with me in that post. I suspect that the “next level” might be simply taking all of the basics to their extreme limits. It may just be over my head if it takes more than that. Why don’t some of the wildlife service guys chime in on this one? If anybody out there would have taken anything to the next level it would be one of those 30 year guys.
Back in the 80’s I called occasionally with a guy on the outskirts of Waco that would tell me that the coyotes would come by every morning at the same time. You could set your watch to it he would joke. I believe that most coyotes do have a territory that they develop a routine in. We could not call those coyotes very well at all. Hmmnn maybe there is something……
222, I take no offense at all to that style of response you use. I like it because it helps keep things in context better. I just do not know how to do it.
Ditto on your Turkey comments……
Cal, you really hit on a great point.
Now to the Tom Bechdal issue. A lot of really valid points were and have been made on him. Rich, I had the same feeling about Tom that you got when you were with him. I did not hunt with him but spent significant time talking “shop” with him and came away from that with a very positive feeling about him.
When my sales manager first approached me about taking him on as a Seminar\Pro staffer he related that he had first contact with Tom at a NWTF show. We checked him out with his references and everyone seemed to be of like mind on Tom. He was very experienced and got very good marks for his seminar abilities. He did a really good job for us and got rave reviews from our Dealers. Most wanted him again the next year.
I would hear from customers that they would hook up with Tom for an afternoon hunt. They would relate that their results were spotty but that they did see or take one. Rich I am like you in that I would also say that it is awful risky to do that if you are a fake. You get found out real fast. Eventually a number of people with concern about his numbers, which I will admit even made me stop and raise my brow, just could not stop themselves from trying to discount and discredit him.
Based on my own experience with him I pitched him to HS and they brought him on board for a while but eventually stopped using him. I have no reason to believe that it was anything to do with a deficiency of his. We both had a hell of a time working with a person in charge of the pro staffers who has since been asked to leave the company. She was so frustrating to me that I was driven to the point of telling her that she would not last 30 days if I was running the company. It takes a lot to push me to that point and what I did was out of character for me. It was very bad experience for him and me alike.
I wondered at times if part of the problem was that people just could not picture him being a “Pro Staffer” or “hunter” or “coyote killer” simply because of the way he looked or talked. He did not have the greatest stage presence, commanding voice or swagger that people have grown accustomed to with many in a position like that in our industry. I liked Tom…I will leave it at that.
Hey guys this has been one hell of an enjoyable thread. Thanks for the info and I hope I can meet all of you some day around a campfire and we can talk about the one that got away….and the ten that didn’t.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 13, 2005 05:47 PM
So who is the Eastern Hunter who practices Voodoo and hexed my hunt today?
I made 12-13 stands, and saw one coyote. Who came in backdoor and down wind. He spooked at 200 yards and I never could shoot because the only house around, was a half a mile behind him.
By the Western standards I keep reading about, I should have called in at least 30 coyotes by the time I made that many stands.
Many of these stands were in proven "Honey Holes" Nistetter took an Eastern hunter to the same area a few weeks ago and kicked butt. Admittedly, he's the best hand caller I've ever heard, but shouldn't I have at least seen a few?
Or maybe the Red god's were mad at me for carrying my new .243 rifle? Surely it can't be that somedays, no matter what you do, the coyotes just won't respond?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2005 06:04 PM
Tim, that's all you have to say? Seems like you spent some time on the wrong side of the Mississippi? No sage advice?
All joking aside, I'd like to hear what you think about the eastern coyote.
Good hunting. LB
edit: the Red Gods?
[ February 13, 2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 13, 2005 06:13 PM
Tim, sometimes the mojo just goes bad. I have to recall Murray Burnham's comment about it.
Quote
" Sometimes this crap don't work."
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Yellerdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 356
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posted February 13, 2005 06:42 PM
I attended a seminar that Tom Bechdel did here in Michigan several years ago. It was put on by a local sporting goods dealer. He was representing Johhny Stewart at the time. I think he represented the company very well Gerald.
He seemed very knowledgable and answered all the questions posed to him in a polite and usually in depth answer. Some of the question were very basic, the kind that get asked over and over. Some were more in depth. He handled them all well.
His kill numbers have been questioned here by others I know who attended that seminar. If the numbers are true, the man hunts a LOT. I won't pass any judgement on those numbers. I think if someone can put in enough time they can acheive that success level. Even here in the east where we can't call them in. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The video Rich is working on is how I started contact with Rich Higgins. Tom Bechdel's name was brought up on a thread on another board. No one knew how to get a hold of him or much about him. Having attended that seminar, I remembered a bit about him and tracked down some info.
Edited so it would make sense! ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
[ February 13, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Yellerdog ]
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Lee Smith
Remember, we meet at dawn.
Posts: 59 | From: Southeastern Michigan | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted February 13, 2005 07:25 PM
Thanks for your feedback Yellerdog. I gave Tom the opportunity to address this issue with his numbers and part of his explaination to me was that very point. He spent a great deal of the time scouting and calling. He evidently had access to quite a number of places to hunt. His personal situation was that he was not employable due to a bad back and he could only rely on occassional light handy man type of work outside of his seminar\prostaff income and his wife's income. The seminar work was seasonal and he had plenty of time to hunt. It is my recollection that he may have hunted in addition to Pa, some of eastern Ohio and northern West Virginia also. At least that is my memory.
[ February 13, 2005, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 13, 2005 08:08 PM
Gerald, your memory serves you just fine. That is exactly as Tom related his circumstance to me. Disabled in an accident, essentially unemployable, he hunts as much as seven days a week. He is well known in Cambridge Springs as the coyote man. During my three days with him he was approached in a restaurant and even once at a red light by locals that wanted him to rid them of their coyote problem.
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 13, 2005 09:24 PM
I don't know anything about the guy you guys are talking about, but alot is gained from Geralds last post. And it has to do with success anywhere. The guy considers himself a coyote hunter and thats what he does. Thats the way I look at it. I'm not a turkey hunter, a deer hunter, an elk hunter, a antelope hunter, a lion hunter, I'm a coyote hunter. Sometimes I hunt those other things and I do OK, but I am a coyote hunter. That is what I'm geared towards. That is where the vast majority of my time and effort go. I do some other things so I can afford to coyote hunt more. I'm not a welder, or a carpenter, or a fence builder, or a videographer, but I do some of those things on the side so I can be a coyote hunter. I think most guys and especially those away from this particular board are something else. They are deer hunters that occasionally hunt coyotes, or they are turkey hunters that ocasionally hunt coyotes or whatever. But I am a coyote hunter that ocasionally hunts something else. I know that there are several more with the same attitude around here, and I think that has alot to do with coyote hunting success, east or west. And maybe thats why this guy kills alot of eastern coyotes? I don't really know, but thats my guess.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 14, 2005 03:32 AM
Thank you, Cal. You have succeeded in defining my World. Not a bad place to be, is it?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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