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Author
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Topic: Taking of multiple coyotes?
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted April 12, 2007 08:52 AM
Tom64,
That is very surprising to me.I have two .204 Rugers,one is the 23" TC contender you mention,and a Ruger M77 24" barrel and I have Chronoed both with the 35 bergers that are loaded with 28 grains of H4895 and they were running between 3800-3850.As far as the 45 grain SP factory Hornady bullets they to are close to factory claims and group surprisingly well.I haven't reloaded the 45's yet but will probably work up a load this summer.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted April 12, 2007 09:45 AM
TOM64,
Do you know how close the ogive of your chosen bullet is to the lands in your barrel? If the bullet is jumping a little bit before engaging the lands, you could be losing pressure and therefore obtaining less velocity.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted April 12, 2007 10:00 AM
Randy R - a guy in Vernon TX I know hunts alot of night contest.
He bought a 243WSSM form Dtech.
http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/WSSM%20page.htm
Push two pins and use your existing AR lower.
He said animals shot at night with the 243WSSM
require no tracking. Not fur friendly.
I am going to order a 204 upper for mine.
Good luck with your choice.
Kelly
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 12, 2007 10:23 AM
Guy's I have struggled with the results I got from day one, with the factory barrels on the Remingtons it was impossible to reach the lands with the restraints of the magazine box. I haven't even bothered to check it on the T/C, my OAL is 2.275, longer than the listed depth in my books. I have thought that seating it deeper might bring pressures up a bit but 200fps?
My other thoughts has been towards primers, I have been using Fed 205Match primers because I have noticed better accuracy, this also produced a velocity drop in my .223 load when I switched from WSR primers. On the .223 load I first thought a different lot of powder was the culprit but now I don't know.
I think I'll try seating deeper and going back to WSR primers and see if I get any change. I just hate giving this 204 load up as it seems to be very consistant which equals very accurate. I'm no great target shooter and called the low shot as I pulled the trigger on my heartbeat, trying to get the last shot off as the wind was picking back up again.
The chronograph was sent in this past summer for some work and was verified to be accurate as well.
I'll keep ya'll posted.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 12, 2007 12:25 PM
Tom, I'm not sure what you mean by seating deeper? That gets a little complicated in that yes, you can increase the pressures, but you also decrease the case volume. So, if you create a bullet jump as with most Weatherby cartridges and the like, you can get impressive velocities and inaccuracy with premature throat erosion.
Now, if you meant seating your bullets further out, engaging the lands, that will up preasure all by itself, but it may greatly improve accuracy?
After all is said and done, some barrels will not achieve published velocities, no matter what.
I do think it is a waste of time to arbitrarily change primers after working up a load. You have to start over when you change a component and it may require (also) changing your powder for a more suitable burning rate compatable with your primer? Otherwise, you just dumped some vinegar into your champagne; trying to "improve" the taste. Personal opinion.
Good hunting. LB
[ April 12, 2007, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 12, 2007 04:11 PM
Try useing a slower burning powdwer to increase youre vel.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 12, 2007 04:15 PM
Ok guys help me out here, if I seat the bullet deeper into the case wouldn't that decrease room for powder and increase pressure, increasing velocity?
Yet while seating a bullet out towards the lands, creates more room for powder, decreasing pressure unless you do touch the lands that would increase pressure.
Actualy I beleive the further out you seat a bullet, you open up the possibility of being able to add more powder, keeping pressure acceptable yet maybe increasing velocity(?) Is my thinking flawed?
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 12, 2007 04:20 PM
TA, I'm going by several reports from 204 shooters that use this load and get higher velocity.
Wondering what I'm doing different with 3 different guns and actually 5 different loads yet remember the factory loads produced close to advertised velocity ruling out the barrel not being capable.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted April 12, 2007 04:24 PM
Tom,
I've no experiance with the .204, but my 17 Rems have all loved Varget powder and Remington 7.5 primers, have you tried them?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 12, 2007 04:35 PM
Tom: Are you saying that youre gun will shoot a factory load at the vel. listed for a factory load?
If so, then compare there O.A.L. with youres, if this is also the same or close then next question. Are you useing the same bullet weight as factory load? Could you give me and example of the load you are useing? Thanks
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 12, 2007 04:52 PM
Tom you are thinking correctly. Seat the bullets as far as you want to engage the rifling, or limit the overall length to fit in your magazine guns. But choose a powder that allows you to fill the case without blowing primers and then, yes, the small extra capacity should allow slightly higher pressure and commensurate velocity. You threw me off talking about "seating deeper".
I don't know what powder is best for a 204 handloaded, but somebody here does. You need to choose a fine line between performance parameters; accuracy and velocity. The best accuracy may be at slightly lower velocity than MAX. Choosing the best powder for your particular rifle using your selected bullet is not easy. If all you get is fine accuracy, and you cannot get the velocity you were hoping for, take it and live with it. Or, choose a lighter or heavier bullet to mimic the performance you would like to see.
But, the evidence seems to be that you have not picked the right combination of components, if factories beat your handloads?
Good luck, LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 12, 2007 08:50 PM
First, TA the load I'm using now is 28.2 grains of H4895 under a 35 grain Berger hollow point with a Fed 205Match primer. This load is listed at 3900 fps and Chad has chronographed it doing 3800-3850 fps out of the same 23" barrel, very acceptable. And while I have not shot any factory ammo out of this contender my first Remington did get real close to the listed velocity with factory ammo then every handload I tried ran about 200 fps slower. If the factory Hornady ammo had a good bullet, I'd use it but I had problems on coyotes with both the 32 and 40 gr. bullets.
Tim Behle, I have tried Varget but not Rem 7.5 primers, I hear they have a pretty hard cup and are probably what I need to be using when working on max loads.
Leonard, if my thinking is correct, I should be able to seat a few bullets a little deeper to the listed OAL, if velocity comes up with no other changes then problem found and I can move on accordingly.
One other thing is all of the info I've read says it's very hard if not impossible to beat the factory velocity of 4200 fps w/32gr and 3900 w/40 gr bullets without running into pressure problems so while working with a contender I'm not going to try to beat the velocity but I would like to get a little closer to what everyone else seems to be getting.
I guess what I'm asking is if the listed OAL for a specified load is 2.240" and I load the exact load but seat to 2.275" is that going to make a 170fps difference? I can't see it but I will find out.
ps. Sorry to hi-jack a thread again but I remembered it's encouraged here!
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 12, 2007 09:48 PM
No, you won't get higher velocity just by seating the bullet further out. But that does allow you to add ? a half grain more powder, maybe, and that combined with the bullet chambering within ten thousanths of the lands, that should get you a little more velocity. Don't expect miracles.
I think the answer is to find a powder that completely fills the case. Varget might be a good choice? That's what I use in my 223Ackley and 28 grains completely fills the case, which is the same case as the 204, except the shoulder is blown out in fireforming.
But, don't go by my recommendation, find a load in the book, hopefully you get at least a 95% fill on the case and gives the highest velocity. Then back off and work up....you know the drill.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 12, 2007 10:20 PM
Tom: If you are useing a T/C contender you will not be able to reach the same load or vel as compared to a bolt action. The T/C will lock up on you when you reach max or go over a bit, they can't handle the pressure cause of the break open action design.
Second youre barrel is 23" where most tested are 24", that will make a difference in vel.
Here are some loads i got from IMR and Hodgdon.
35 gr. berger
imr-4895/28.3 c MAX load. Vel. 3864
H-4895/28.2c MAX load. vel. 3910
H-335/27.5 MAX load vel. 3915
BL-C/30.7 MAX load vel. 3937
Where you live compared to others well give you a different max. load, it has to do with Alt. B/press. and temp. I use two chrono-graphs when testing loads and neither one seems to agree.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted April 13, 2007 05:49 AM
"No, you won't get higher velocity just by seating the bullet further out."
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Maybe not every time. While working up a load for my .257 Ackley, I experienced a velocity gain. I will check my record book and post the exact velocity gain. I experienced the velocity increase when I seated the bullet out a little closer to the lands.
Edit: This is nice thing about keeping records. Closer inspection shows that I experienced slight velocity gain with a lot less deviation in speed.
[ April 13, 2007, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted April 13, 2007 07:27 AM
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted April 13, 2007 08:03 AM
Tom64,
This is from my T.C 23" barrel,average was 3825 Fps.I am at a loss why you are having trouble getting more Velocity out of your .204's,I think my M77 will be even better after I work on the trigger a bit.Oh, and I did change primers because I was seeing pressure signs with the Federals,so i went to Remington 7 1/2 's like Tim Mentioned, pressure problems disappeared,I read it has something to do with cup thickness of the primers.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
[ April 13, 2007, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted April 13, 2007 05:55 PM
Has anyone considered the effect of different twist rates??????Two exact same loads fired down like barrels but of different rates of twist are going to have different velocities.I never expect my loads to be identical to the same load in a manual.The number of rounds down a barrel can affect velocity. The temperature of the round can affect velocity.Just a lot of variables to consider that will cause results to vary. thanks
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted April 13, 2007 06:03 PM
6mm284: "Has anyone considered the effect of different twist rates??????Two exact same loads fired down like barrels but of different rates of twist are going to have different velocities."
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Good point 6mm284. All else being equal, a barrel with faster twist rate will usually yield higher velocity. It is a thing called friction.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 13, 2007 06:32 PM
I have not tested barrel twist for diff. vel but i have done some tests on primers. When you get blown primers its the cartridge telling you it is at max. load, by changeing to a different primer is going to lower the pressure abit so you could get by with the max. load you are useing. Take a look at my test and hopefuly you can see what i'm talking about..
This is the results of a test i did with my 22-250 ackley. All loads where tested on the same day, the only difference in load is the changeing of primers...
22-250 ackley 52 gr. sierra, N-540/39.6, five shot string.
Win.9wlr) avr. vel 3920 .54 variance
Rem 9 1/2 3900 .82 var.
CCI, BR-2 4060 .27 var
Fed. 210-match 4100 .36
Best group was with fed.210-m
Next test was with a 17 rem. with 1-9" useing a 30 gr. berger. I did not test vel.spread this time, i new the vel was around 3850 and i was looking for primer that gave most accurate load.
Fed.205 with a group of .681
CCI-450 .911
Rem. 6 1/2 .531
Rem.7 1/2 .750
I settled on useing the fed. 205 match primer, it produced more consistant groups compared to the rem 6 1/2
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted April 13, 2007 07:09 PM
"I have not tested barrel twist for diff. vel but i have done some tests on primers. When you get blown primers its the cartridge telling you it is at max. load, by changeing to a different primer is going to lower the pressure abit so you could get by with the max. load you are useing. Take a look at my test and hopefuly you can see what i'm talking about.."
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The problem is that by switching primers, you may get a dangerous pressure spike. Another problem with this practice is that some primers have thicker skins while still producing same or more pressure. Blown primers are a danger sign. The idea is to lower the pressure and eliminate the danger. Masking the danger by using thicker primer is not a wise practice.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 13, 2007 08:15 PM
Guys beleive me, I do appreciate all the input.
As for different twist rates, I tested several barrels in .223 with 1/7, 1/9, and 1/12 twist in lengths of 20", 16" and 14.5" with little difference between twist rates. I've posted this before elsewhere but since I refer to this site as "the educational channel" I'll do it again, someone might get some use out of it.
These were all Colt AR-15's shot on the same day with the same lot of XM-193 55 grain ammo just for comparison sake.
I did shoot another 14.5" barrel, a LW profile but was unsure of the twist so I threw out the results of that one.
14.5" 1/7 = 3068 fps (new M4)
16" 1/7 = 3169 fps
16" 1/9 = 3147 fps
16" 1/12 = 3099 fps(SP1 many rounds fired)
20" 1/7 = 3275 fps (new A2)
20" 1/12 = 3279 fps (new LW)
Things I got out of the test were:
1. 20-16=110fps difference, 16-14.5=100fps difference, the point of diminishing returns.
2. Twist rate makes less difference than barrel quality.
3. XM193 ammo sucks!
I did use Federal 69 grain match ammo as well but I lost the results, they showed no real difference though besides velocity being slower.
[ April 13, 2007, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 13, 2007 08:34 PM
Rich: what i was getting at is by useing a different primer you can reduce the amout of pressure the load is produceing.
Take for example from load in above post, the load useing the win. primer produced less vel, and thus less pressure, The fed. 210 produced higher vel, and higher pressure compared to other brands.
Thats why if you are at max. load and you want to try a different primer you need to reguce the load and work up. In Toms case he wants more vel, this canbe obtained by trying a different primer.
Another thing a change of primers can do is tighten up a group, for example you have 3 holes touching and two holes are off a bit (flyers). By changeing primers youre average group won't be any smaller, but the flyers will disappear, makeing the group more rounded...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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