|
Author
|
Topic: "Call shy" coyotes
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted December 25, 2010 01:20 PM
If this is so and they hear so well. Why is it then they have'nt heard youre special call and come in.. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Edit to add; If the freq. was to high or low for the meter to pick up it will still show where it has stopped reading it or show a maxed out point as you continue to blow air through it or change the settings. I have'nt found a sound that will do this, so it must not exist.. Yes the meter can pick up the sound of air going through the whistle so you need to back-up aways when you do the sound test...
I think in order to find some of these higher freq. sounds I would have to look into the area of sounds that are man made such as airplanes, and machinery, musical instraments and so on..
As far as animal distress sounds used for calling it don't exist..
A loon has a pretty good higher freq. sound maybe we should be useing it for calling... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ December 25, 2010, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted December 25, 2010 03:18 PM
Tim,
If you're talking to me about a "special call" then I dunno why they haven't come in, or if they haven't come in, or if you even use the thing like you said you would.
TA "I was out useing the call today Krusty. I like it alot and i will continue to use it. My THANKS to you. Take care. T.A.
I also don't know anything about your ability, or lack thereof, to use a hand call... all you ever talk about is your beloved WT.
Beyond that, I don't believe there's anything all that "special" about that call.
I sent you the call as a gift, with nothing but good intentions, and you've since pissed on that gesture, many many times.
I've asked you not to use that call just to get my goat, but somehow you feel the need to do so, generally over subjects with little or nothing to do with the call.
Please keep the debate to the subject at hand.
________________________________________________
There's no reason the manufacturer of that decibel meter would lie about the range of frequencies it can read, and yet somehow you've made it up in your mind that it can read frequencies outside of these.
Nikonut "The frequency range is very limited, 31.5Hz to 8KHz, far less than even a human can hear."
If you think that meter can read anything beyond these frequencies, or that a WT produces sounds in the full spectrum of coyote hearing, you're an idiot.
Krusty 
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
fgf4
unknown comic
|
posted December 25, 2010 04:13 PM
Damn Jeff...
That's funny! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) I thought everyone online already knew that about Tim! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted December 25, 2010 05:01 PM
quote:
If you're talking to me about a "special call" then I dunno why they haven't come in, or if they haven't come in, or if you even use the thing like you said you would.
quote:
If this is so and they hear so well. Why is it then they have'nt heard ""youre"" special call and come in..
I was'nt talking about the call I have but the special ones you make and use. Now who's the Idiot????? The call I have still sits on the shelf. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
With someone with a vast knowledge of sound and supposeidly makes a great call you shouldbe stacking them up right and left..
[ December 25, 2010, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
|
posted December 25, 2010 05:37 PM
Tim,
I don't make calls that are "special" and never claimed I did. What the heck are you talking about?
The fact that you can't even write a sentence that's intelligible, doesn't make ME the idiot.
And I'd say a good portion of the regular calls I've made are producing well enough, for those that actually use them.
I don't very often use a call I made, myself, but have called several bears, a handfull or two of bobcats, two mountain lions, and even a couple coyotes with them.
Pointing out that I haven't had great success doesn't make you smart, or right, just rude.
Understanding the science of sound, obviously, looking at you, isn't required to kill coyotes.
And you sir, are no scientist.
Krusty
--------------------
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
|
posted December 26, 2010 01:06 AM
Every one who has called coyotes has caused or at least contributed to creating callshy coyotes. Like it or not the more expierenced you are the more guilty you are. I can't fault a new guy that makes 20 stands a year and calls in 3 coyotes and kills one. Some years I have made many hundreds of stands. I may kill a higher percentage of coyotes than a new hunter (that I have shots at) but i am still going to expose a larger number of animals to my calls than most callers.
Because I hunt the same areas all season I can usually stay on top of the game. I get a feel for the areas and know which ones need rested. Resting an area, in my experience, will better serve you in the long run than just trying new sounds. I don't prescribe to the idea that if you burn a coyote bad one day you can call him in the next with a different sound. I wouldn't bank on it anyway.
When coyotes get truly shy they tend to stay that way for a long time. When they get uncomfortable in there own territories you are going play hell trying to call them in. And in some cases you are just not going to do it plane and simple. Coyotes need a certain leval of comfort and confidance to respond. Pressure comes in many different forms so when a coyote becomes paranoid self preservation overrides all other instincts.
Why any particuler coyote doesn't come in is really anyones guess. Sometimes they simply just don't want too. How many times have you seen a coyote, called to it and the best response you get is a casual glance? On any given day there is going to be a percentage of coyotes that will not respond to your calls. Period. Some days it might only be 10% and we have all had those 100% days. How much pressure they have seen does play a role but so does many other aspects that occur naturaly in a coyotes life.
One thing we can count on though is that the lack of response will always be shrouded in mystery. The promise of higher success rates fules the "industry" and the marketing system has turned predator hunting into a technological arms race.
Why coyotes respond is probably equaly as complex as why they don't but no one really cares exactly why they respond just as long as they do. Coyotes do respond to distress sounds for many reasons. Not just because they are hungry. Curiosity, companionship and teritorial reasons will evoke a response also. Where the coyote fits in socialy will influence if or how it responds. In the end I think why a coyote responds or he doesn't is individual but only to a point. Weather, time of day and time of year will alter there responses as well. All of that being said though a coyote must be comfortable with the stand you make and your presentation before he will commit.
My fault is probably my tendency to over simplify. I use 4 sounds total to call coyotes for the majority of the season. A squeak/churp a rabbit distress a howl and a coyote distress is about all I use. Sounds are important but in my opinion they are grossly over emphasized. Wheather more coyotes are made call shy by hand calls or by E-calls is interesting but the real issue for me is how to deal with it.
Good hunting.
Q,
[ December 26, 2010, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: Q-Wagoner ]
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted December 26, 2010 03:23 AM
"Q"; Might I add '..........turned predator hunting into a {high dollar} technological arms race'.
Good stuff to ponder. Are we letting the excellent technology that we have available to us take the place of common sense, thinking, and wood craft skills??
Every once in a while, it's a simple joy to leave all of the equiptment that I can't live without in the truck and just take a mouth call, a firearm, a camo shirt & an ugly hat and go calling. No frills, no bells, no whistles. Amazingly, I still get a few coyotes that way & have a good time doing it.
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
|
posted December 26, 2010 04:15 AM
With regard to coyote lack of response, Gerry Blair remarks in one of his books, "Maybe they just have a headache."
Question I have been pondering as I have been reading this thread....
Do we need active stimulus to create a call shy coyote? In other words, does a coyote have to be shot at, spooked by movement, smell, etc. when responding to a call, regardless of ecaller or handcall? Or does the repeated calling of an area create a call shy coyote, just by them hearing the sounds over and over again and not responding for whatever reason? It makes me think of my dog. When coyote season is approaching and I break out the e caller and hand calls, my dog is interested and comes running. But after half a day or so, he loses interest and doesn't care about the sounds anymore.
[ December 26, 2010, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
|
posted December 26, 2010 07:46 AM
quote:
Do we need active stimulus to create a call shy coyote?
IMO, Yes, we do. Comparing your dog with coyotes isn't a true comparison. Your dog learned not to be interested because he DID respond and never found what he was looking for, so he simply lost interest. I beleive a coyote hearing the sounds over and over and not being in the mood to investigate the sounds leaves him vulnerable to the time when he is interested and finally comes to investigate. Thing is, at least in the wide open country that many of us call, even if the coyote doesn't come to the call, and instead just simply looks your way, eventually he may see the hunter/s walk away and that may be enough to educate said coyotes.
--------------------
Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
|
posted December 26, 2010 08:42 AM
Good points TR.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 26, 2010 10:06 AM
Yeah, that is a good point. So is what Quinton said about all of us contributing to "call shy" education, or whatever you choose to label it? When you get right down to it, maybe four catagories of sound is all we need, but the confidence factor necessitates another hundred or so available at the touch of a button....or the report of a gunshot, as it were?
I still want to place the majority of hte responsibility on A: FOXPRO, and B: casual symplistic newbie types.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
fgf4
unknown comic
|
posted December 26, 2010 12:03 PM
What about every stand we make contributing?
How many times have coyotes come in after we have left a stand and smelled our human activity? Coupled with the sounds they might have heard would that also be enough to educate a coyote... even when not in a hunted situation.
We already know that when most coyotes smell or see a human they are gone, how do they learn that even if they haven't been shot at or chased? Is what we think of as learning actually an instinctual response to human interaction or environment conditioning. Simply their instinctual predator/prey flight response kicking in gear?
We may never know but it is fun to watch and try to understand for greater success in our hunts. As humans we are probably the only animal with the mental ability to think this deeply about such things!
IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 26, 2010 12:12 PM
"We already know that when most coyotes smell or see a human they are gone, how do they learn that even if they haven't been shot at or chased?"
---------------------------------------
Their parents teach them. Most of us who have been around this game for a long time have a tendency to over think the coyote calling thing. Coyotes don't have the capability to rationalize the situation.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wily E
unknown comic
|
posted December 26, 2010 01:04 PM
Tim,
I have to respond to a couple things you said.
Tim: "So if a coyote has all this great hearing ability why is it a hunter can walk up to with-in 100-200 yds on snow and not be heard or drive up with a truck to with-in 50 yds and not be heard."
Time and time again, I have called to a coyote with one series of calls at a distance of a half mile to 3/4 of a mile and had coyotes come to within 30' of me, stop and look for the source of the sound. They pegged the origination of that sound to within 30' at a range of a half mile to three quarters of a mile. If that's not an uncanny ability to hear I don't know what is. I have seen coyotes, many times, dig through 2' of snow to catch a mouse. How much sound do you think a moving mouse (not squeaking) makes under 2' of snow Tim? No, they didn't smell the mouse because they cocked their head before they started digging. They heard it without a doubt.
Don't make the mistake of assuming that because someone walks within feet or drives within feet of a coyote that the coyote didn't hear them. Far more likely that the coyote heard them and wasn't about to leave which would expose themselves to further danger particularly in areas of higher human activity.
Heck I have watched coyotes lie down in a bare winter wheat field hoping that I would pass by without seeing them. After driving past them, because there was no reason to kill them in that particular place and time, they got up and ran across the road behind me. In this exposed bare ground situation, the coyote never moved until they thought I had driven past so why would they be inclined to move if they thought they were concealed? They wouldn't.
In addition, if you are calling in an area that is frequented by human noises, vehicle noises, or other noises that could drown out both human and vehicle noise, coyotes are not going to pay much attention to it. Go into the middle of a big open pasture out west somewhere where there is very little other noise to contend with and I'll bet my last dollar you are not going to sneak up on many coyotes on crunchy snow. Been there, done that, many many times. Crunchy snow is poison in areas of reduced human activity and other noises.
Again, don't assume because a coyote didn't jump up and run that they didn't hear you.
Tim: "I've watched red fox in a field look for mice and they have to be around 5' or closer to pick up the sound made by one, so there hearing is'nt that great."
Tim, those coyotes are listening to mouse movement, not mouse squeaks. A mouse isn't squeaking when he's moving around. So how much sound do you honestly think a moving mouse makes?
Tim: "I know by watching the meter on the sound testing unit that the farther you are away from the source of sound the less of it will be picked up or be heard by the coyote depending on what sound is used."
Did I misunderstand this?
You needed a sound testing meter to tell you that the further you are away from a sound, the more difficult it is for a coyote to hear that sound??
Tim: "I think someone once said a coyote can hear a howler more than a mile away, yes its possable but another thing to keep in mind is perhaps a coyote that was closer to the howler responded first to the howl and thus the next coyote down the line respond giveing the caller the impresion that a coyote 2 miles away could hear the howler.."
If you can hear a coyote at 2 miles then they can hear you.
Tim: "I was out locateing one mourning with a ADC guy and we played a locate howl on the WT and got a coyote that was a few hundred yards away to answer and from there it was a chain reaction of coyotes sounding off all the way down the drainage. Did they all hear the howl from the WT or was it the next closest coyote that was howling that set them off??? Ponder on that for awhile.."
Again, if you could hear these coyotes, they could hear you regardless of any hearing aids.
Excellent post Quinton. We are heading South again in a little over a week.
~SH~
[ December 26, 2010, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 26, 2010 01:46 PM
Yes, about heading south. We need to have an email discussion, with copies as to planning a little ronde. Dave is already the WESTERN HUNT COORDINATOR, so we need him to moderate. Have not heard a peep from Vic?
Good hunting. LB
PS as a rule of thumb, stating that if you can hear a coyote....... they can hear you, is extremely misleading. Sorry, I usually hate the use/misuse of the word extreme. (dig?)
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted December 26, 2010 02:55 PM
quote:
Don't make the mistake of assuming that because someone walks within feet or drives within feet of a coyote that the coyote didn't hear them. Far more likely that the coyote heard them and wasn't about to leave which would expose themselves to further danger particularly in areas of higher human activity.
Heck I have watched coyotes lie down in a bare winter wheat field hoping that I would pass by without seeing them. After driving past them, because there was no reason to kill them in that particular place and time, they got up and ran across the road behind me. In this exposed bare ground situation, the coyote never moved until they thought I had driven past so why would they be inclined to move if they thought they were concealed? They wouldn't.
In addition, if you are calling in an area that is frequented by human noises, vehicle noises, or other noises that could drown out both human and vehicle noise, coyotes are not going to pay much attention to it. Go into the middle of a big open pasture out west somewhere where there is very little other noise to contend with and I'll bet my last dollar you are not going to sneak up on many coyotes on crunchy snow. Been there, done that, many many times. Crunchy snow is poison in areas of reduced human activity and other noises.
Again, don't assume because a coyote didn't jump up and run that they didn't hear you.
Yes Scott I'm well aware of this, I hunt them here, Remember!!! I'm talking about the coyotes that are laying in their bed all curled up and still asleep when the bullet hits them. I'll toss in a little fox hunting vidio to give you a better picture. Two mile section crusty snow and no traffic. The fox did'nt wake-up till I gave it some whistles and rabbit with some barks to wake it up so it would lift its head.. Have had the same happen with some coyotes..
[URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums /f208/TA17Rem/09-10%20Fox%20and%20coyotes/th_Deletepartiallyof1302010_161127.jpg[/IMG]][/URL]
From my exsperiance I'm also well aware of how well they can pin-point to where the sound is comeing from, but also have had coyotes that could'nt...
quote:
Did I misunderstand this?
You needed a sound testing meter to tell you that the further you are away from a sound, the more difficult it is for a coyote to hear that sound??
No! I new that but did'nt know by how much the sound is affected or how much of it is broken up..
Voice howls and coyote vocals from a E-Caller are the loudest sounds out there and stay together better than distress sounds, but some vocals carry better than others and don't break up as much.. In other words the coyote did'nt hear the whole sentence but just bits and pieces depending on how far away it is. Its the same with distress sounds depending on how far they are from the caller. They can hear the sound but not enough to get all of them interested and this maybe why some respond and some act like they don't care..
Edit to add. I'm also aware a coyote or even a red fox can pin-point a mouse under two feet of snow but like I said they have to be close to hear them. I've watched both in a field hunting and have never seen one make a direct path to a sound of a mouse moveing under the snow.. They mostly zig-zag till the sound of there steps causes a mouse to move and only then hear it and zero in on it...
[ December 26, 2010, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wily E
unknown comic
|
posted December 26, 2010 04:25 PM
Tim,
I still disagree with your basic assumption. A sleeping animal that didn't hear your approach because they were sleeping does not prove that they have poor hearing. It proves that they aren't paying attention to sounds they should be paying attention to when they are sleeping.
Of course a coyote has to be close to hear a mouse under 2 feet of snow. They would probably have to be even closer to hear a feather fall to the ground.
~SH~
IP: Logged
|
|
Wily E
unknown comic
|
posted December 26, 2010 04:27 PM
Leonard: "..as a rule of thumb, stating that if you can hear a coyote....... they can hear you, is extremely misleading."
Would love to hear your explanation for that.
My response was within the context of getting a howling response from coyotes with a howler or with a howl from the WT.
I'll stand by what I said. If you can hear a coyote howl, the coyotes would certainly be able to hear a howl from a howler or a WT unless it was against a howling wind which wouldn't be conducive to calling anyway.
~SH~
[ December 26, 2010, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted December 26, 2010 04:35 PM
Can coyotes multitask or do they have to shut down one of there senses in order to use another?? In other words can they walk and chew gum at the same time?
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wily E
unknown comic
|
posted December 26, 2010 04:36 PM
A coyote that didn't hear you while it was sleeping does not prove they have less than acute hearing.
~SH~
[ December 26, 2010, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 26, 2010 04:46 PM
quote:
Leonard: "..as a rule of thumb, stating that if you can hear a coyote....... they can hear you, is extremely misleading."
Would love to hear your explanation for that.
I think that is fairly self-explanatory?
The statement has an equality about it, like as long as the human can hear the coyote, the coyote can hear the human.
What it does not consider is that a coyote can hear a human at far beyond the range in which a human can hear the coyote. It isn't even. I don't know if it is true, (exactly) but just for illustration let us say that a coyote can hear a human at twice the distance that a human can hear a coyote; or put another way, a human can only hear a coyote at half the distance that a coyote can hear a human. The fact that we can broadcast sound electronically means that again an estimate, we can transmit sound a mile and a half and a coyote can hear it. But, if the coyote responds to our howl, (for instance) we can only hear it if we were three quarters of a mile away. At a mile and a half, we can't hear his response, unless with an aid such as an action ear.
Satisfied? LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wily E
unknown comic
|
posted December 26, 2010 04:54 PM
Leonard: "What it does not consider is that a coyote can hear a human at far beyond the range in which a human can hear the coyote."
That was my point exactly. Within the context of our discussion on a coyote's ability to hear and respond, as you pointed out, they are going to hear our howls much further than we can hear their response. Therefore, if we can hear them respond, they most certainly heard our howls that preceeded that response. Tim was suggesting that a coyote at a range of two miles that responded may have responded to a coyote at a mile rather than the responding to the WT. My point was that if Tim could hear the coyote at 2 miles, the coyote at 2 miles most certainly heard the WT or Tim wouldn't be able to hear it either.
~SH~
[ December 26, 2010, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted December 26, 2010 05:24 PM
quote:
My point was that if you could hear the coyote at 2 miles, they most certainly heard the WT or you wouldn't be able to hear them either.
How do you know the coyote heard the WT and not another coyote closer up the road that howled back??
I know the WT's are loud but there are some days I wounder...
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
SD Howler
taught Huber everything he knows, but not everything HE knows!
Member # 3669
|
posted December 26, 2010 06:52 PM
I feel if someone sounds the howl from a WT and then they hear a response from another coyote, that coyote would be responding to the howl from the WT. Then if other coyotes start howling from different locations, it would be hard to say whether they were responding to the actual coyote howl or the mimic?
--------------------
Steve
Predator Calling
rattler51@pie.midco.net
Posts: 51 | From: SD | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 26, 2010 07:24 PM
Yes, we can't know that, and I'm okay with it.
But, I can remember getting a little predawn shuteye, later rising out of the hatch just before dawn and had coyotes respond to my lone howl from all five points of the compass. Now what? In most cases, might as well stick around and see what happens.
Good hunting. LB
PS maybe they were all responding to each other, but they often have me surrounded? Hmm? By chance, or by design? Only the yippers know, for sure, and they ain't talkin'
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
