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Author
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Topic: "Call shy" coyotes
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted December 26, 2010 07:30 PM
quote:
How do you know the coyote heard the WT and not another coyote closer up the road that howled back??
I know the WT's are loud but there are some days I wounder...
Wow! Tim... the point is extremely(LOL) simple here! It doesn't matter if the coyote two miles away heard the WT or another coyote... if you heard the coyote from two miles away he can hear YOU! There is absolutely no reason the believe a coyote's hearing is even remotely less superior to human hearing. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 26, 2010 07:38 PM
quote:
A coyote that didn't hear you while it was sleeping does not prove they have less than acute hearing.
Yup I agree. What it does prove is they don't hear everything all the time and they can't see all the time or look through ridges or hills and they can't smell down wind.
They can't think or reason like humans and they don't become call shy or educated.. They just fear the unknowing.. If a YOY hears a rabbit distress some may come in and some may fear it, same canbe said about coyote vocals or other coyotes.
I've found that just because a coyote did'nt respond to the rabbit screams at first and perhaps ran away another sound canbe used to change its mind or comfort it and then rabbit screams or another distress sound canbe used to bring it back in to the shooter..
I've had Oklahoma doubles or thriples come in and would shoot the closest one and have the others scatter back over the hill. I would just hit the same sound or switch to one that was a little more intense or exciteing and have them back in for more, you would think they got educated after the first shot..
Just so everyone knows I use pup distress and adult distress less than 5% on all my stands or entire season. I never had a reason to use them so I don't, other sounds will work just as well... Change the coyotes mind or refresh it with something else that interests it..
Scott here is a clip of some of my coyotes at home. What can you tell me about them?????
[URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/th_Deletepart ially2of1212010_173908.jpg[/IMG]][/URL]
Part 2:
[URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/th_Deletepart ially3of1212010_173908.jpg[/IMG]][/URL]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2010 08:11 PM
Minneesota's retarded coyotes. Not surprised.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 26, 2010 08:16 PM
Leonard; Youre a coyote man from way back, what can you tell me about them????
Niko youre not paying attension.. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2010 08:37 PM
Not sure? They appear to be a rare color phase, cornflower blue? Playful little critters!
Good hunting. LB
edit: what's a Oklahoma double? Two missed, twice?
[ December 26, 2010, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 26, 2010 08:56 PM
quote:
what's a Oklahoma double? Two missed, twice?
Not sure but I think Geordie could tell you.. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted December 27, 2010 09:32 AM
Tim,
I can't download your video clips. My home computer is extremely slow. I'm sure it's a virus and I don't have the time to get it fixed right now.
Same goes for emails that have been sent. I seldom check my emails at my home computer because everything loads so slow. I received a nice email from C-dog a while back that I found quite awhile after it was sent and I tried to respond to it in 4 seperate emails. Not sure whether he received my delayed response or not. I need to get this computer problem fixed but it's going to have to wait.
For whatever reason, I am able to post and respond to these threads but some days it's so slow that I just have to give up. Today it's faster than normal.
Tim: "What it does prove is they don't hear everything all the time..."
Tim, your initial point was that a coyote's hearing was not that good because you could drive up or walk up to them. Then you stated it was because they were sleeping.
If someone breaks into someone's house and they don't wake up and they normally have good hearing, did they not wake up because they didn't hear very well or because they were sleeping?
I can't believe a discussion can get so bogged down.
TA: "They can't think or reason like humans and they don't become call shy or educated.."
They may not reason like humans but they most certainly do become call shy and educated from negative experiences. If they could not remember and react to negative experiences, there wouldn't be any coyotes left. They wouldn't even run if you shot at them. Do you think a dog can be trained with a shock collar and the preceeding buzzer? If so, then why would a negative experience with calling be any different?
I know you can use different sounds to create different reactions particularly with coyotes that haven't been burned too many times. If memory serves me correctly, I actually teach that concept. Still I know for fact that coyotes eventually learn to differentiate between live sounds and replicated sounds.
For the record, you have stated that:
1. You do not believe coyotes can hear very well because you can sneak up on them when they are sleeping.
2. You have stated that you believe a coyote that responds to you at a 2 mile distance may be responding to another coyote that is closer as opposed to responding to your initial howl.
3. You have stated that you do not believe coyotes become call shy or educated.
~SH~
[ December 27, 2010, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2010 10:40 AM
Scott, I don't know what kind of setup you have, dialup or broadband, etc.? But, if you try shutting down your router and turning off your computer, and actually removing the connection, then rebooting, your slow problem may disappear? Takes about a minute and cures a lot of issues.
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS these things that take off on a tangent can have just as much value as the information stuff. I know you aren't doing it, but I hate people (control freaks) that complain about staying on topic or hyjacking a thread.
[ December 27, 2010, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 27, 2010 10:55 AM
quote:
1. You do not believe coyotes can hear very well because you can sneak up on them when they are sleeping.
I guess I should of worded it better..
What I'm trying to say is they don't hear all the time due to them sleeping and putting down there guard or also cause of ground structure, the noise not getting to them or like you mentioned in a post other noises in the area..
One of the best tatic's for sneaking up on a bedded coyote is wait till there is traffic in the area or even have a friend drive by in a pick-up to cover up the sounds made by the stalker..
A couple years ago I had a pasture where the coyotes bedded close to the road and could see or hear anyone that would enter it. To make a long story short, the rancher would come through every mourning to check on the cows. So one mourning I followed the rancher in to a point to where I could hide the truck and make a stand..
It worked!
quote:
2. You have stated that you believe a coyote that responds to you at a 2 mile distance may be responding to another coyote that is closer as opposed to responding to your initial howl.
As for hearing it at two miles that was a quote made by someone else I used for an example.
What I was getting at is a coyote can howl back to a howler and set the others off in a chain reaction, and also get others involved that did'nt hear the locate howl to begin with, same as a hunter driveing into a area to call, the hunter may have been spotted by another coyote laid up on a hill side and then warning barked to the others and cause a chain reaction on down the line, which then gives the hunter the impression that theses coyotes are call shy..
quote:
You have stated that you do not believe coyotes become call shy or educated.
I'll stick with that statement till I see other wise...
Like you teach, different day,different location,different sound or played in a different order...
I'm not saying I'm right about anything we talked about just saying. I know there are some coyotes that don't want anything to do with others or even distress sounds for what ever reasons. But yet I can go back to that coyote at another date and its back to its old self again just being a coyote..
Most caller don't see this happening or don't know or understand so maybe you can move on to something else that will spike there interest..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted December 27, 2010 11:51 AM
I have to agree with Leonards blamming foxpro and stupid foxpro ambushers for more call shy coyotes than anything else. That was a page or two ago.At least it seems to hold true where I hunt anyways...Good calling,,,,Walt
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
Posts: 636 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2010 12:24 PM
One of the CO OP's up north. I heard they got in 12 Foxpros a few days before Christmas and had sold 8 before closing time. Flying off the shelves and being misused the very same day! lol
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted December 27, 2010 12:54 PM
quote:
... sold 8 before closing time
The good news is that 7 of those 8 will be in the back of a closet or on ebay by next summer.
The bad news is that the ones on ebay will be bought up by the people who didn't get one for christmas!
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted December 27, 2010 01:16 PM
Tim I don't care what they say about you. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) You make some interesting videos.
Why didn't you shoot? How far away were they?
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted December 27, 2010 01:22 PM
Tim,
Any further dialogue on the same topics would be redundant at this point. I'll let the readers sort it out.
~SH~
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 27, 2010 01:57 PM
4949; The vidio was taken just as the sun was setting, reason for the blue haze. The coyotes are in a deer yard, no hunting allowed. They were amost a 1/2 mile from my stand, I had to try and pull them across open ground and across a fence line onto property I could shoot on... I think as the sun was setting it made it a little more comfortable for them and may have helped in getting them to respond, don't know for sure...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 27, 2010 07:20 PM
Since its pretty well agreed that you can call a coyote with anything from a JS 8 track to a rubber ducky, I venture to say that calls of any kind don't typically educate coyotes. The people running the calls do. Poor setups and poor shooting educates coyotes. End of the discussion for me. Finding ways to call those coyotes is the quandry. I have coyotes highly educated to hand calls that I have killed with e-calls and coyotes highly educated to e-calls that I killed with hand calls. There is no method of killing coyotes that can't be overused and abused. There also is no method that is 100% all the time. The best foothold trapper in the world misses and pinches some coyotes. Then has to use a different method to kill that coyote later. Same goes for aerial hunting, snaring, calling, M44s etc. etc.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 27, 2010 07:25 PM
Scott,
I did receive your replies and read them completely. Need to read them again. Thanks for the reply and sorry for not replying. Life has been, well, busy.
As to the original question, I’ll give my .02, which will likely turn into about $10.34 worth of remarks. In short, simple question. Very elaborate answer, because the matter of coyotes becoming call shy, educated, or however you wish to describe their unwillingness to respond by this time of the year is due to much more than the misguided notion that all those coyotes have been called, shot at, missed and somehow survived to piss me and the rest of you off on a regular basis. LOL
For one thing, let’s look at the short list of variables to consider since there is no realistic way that all things can be equal. Not gonna happen.
Each of us is different as to the way we set up our setups, which types of calls we use, which sounds we make with each call, cadence, volume, continuous versus sporadic, 30 seconds of squeals and a minute of wait or a minute of sound and ten minutes or more of nada, where we set up on a particular piece of ground, wind direction/ speed/ constant versus gusting, temperature, time of day, cloudy versus clear, nighttime versus day, cold versus warm versus just right, snow or no snow, moon phases/ rise, barometric pressure steady/ rising/ falling, personal experience and historical record at that location versus in general, time of year, density of coyotes, transient versus resident coyote, lone wolf versus family group, inside defended territory versus outside and in home range, relative level of assertiveness in the coyotes within hearing range (aggressive versus timid), amount of other activity (hunting and non-hunting) in the area, cattle or no cattle, other hunters versus almost no human presence, what the weather was like last night, yesterday, an hour ago, or even tomorrow, etc., etc., ad nauseum. You get the drift.
Over the past several months, I’ve been in a number of interesting conversations with the Professor where we discussed what I, like him, tend to view as the misnomer “call shy coyotes”. I do agree that, up to a point, a coyote can become overly familiarized to a particular sound, or series of sounds, and that they learn to avoid that particular sound or the way in which it is presented to them, be it running continuously, or from the same spot,... whatever. But, I don’t agree that this is the sole reason for coyotes becoming “call shy” or “educated”.
From my talks with Rich, I have concluded that coyotes becoming difficult to work with are likely their response to increased pressure, and that this pressure can come from any of a long litany of sources, including calling, dog hunters, other hunters, ATV riders, bird watchers, ranchers feeding cattle, and the like. Again, the list can go on endlessly depending upon your area and land uses and, for the most part, the higher the human pop’n in a given area, the more quickly coyotes tend to get to that point where they piss you off. And, it ain’t just because everyone is shooting at them. All the shooting doesn't help, but they don't have to be shot at to make them nervous.
Around here, calling suddenly grows more difficult when the onslaught of hunters hits the field - deer hunting, pheasant and quail hunting, coyote hunters. Not all these people are shooting at coyotes, but those coyotes are still being displaced on an almost daily basis and until this time of the year, this is something that is relatively new to them. Add in ranchers and farmers entering pastures around here every single day to drop round bales and feed supplements for cattle on winter pasture - something they don’t do during the summer and spring months - and those poor damned coyotes are being pushed around all the time. All those intrusions take a toll on their security levels and they become increasingly jumpy and paranoid, thus they become less willing to roll up on every sound they hear. People then tend to mistake this as being call shy or educated, when calling is just one part of a multi-faceted behavioral response. Those which are unable to develop this response are quickly removed through simple natural selection leaving what we recognize to be the more difficult to call survivors.
Also, at the same time, I want to share an analogy Q made last night when we discussed this topic on the phone. Since he posts from his phone now, typing this out would have been awfully time consuming for him.
Coyotes are like people - each one is an individual with its own way of doing things. Scott posted this question and some of you were quick to jump right in. Others sat back to see what evolved over time, having seen where these discussions tend to go. Experience has made them “call shy” if you will. Some of the early chargers are overzealous and get themselves in too deep. Tim would have died the first week of November if he was a coyote, and apparently, he thinks he is. Still others would sit on the ridgeline just watching, occasionally barking, and refusing to close the gap because they know the consequences of charging down the hill too quickly. Still, untold others will circle downwind, test the air and leave undetected (lurkers). In other words, there are coyotes out there that, due to experience or just being born with better sense and a more refined sense of rationalizing risks, will always stay beyond the reach of danger by being uncooperative, while others will quickly and eagerly charge in aggressively, oblivious to the risks. Sometimes, rather than being educated or call shy, a coyote is just naturally more cautious and wary. Those are the ones that know that laying down will help them hide, sitting still with danger nearby will save their skins, and staying back in the trees while their mate runs smack dab into the business end of a ballistic tip bullet is a damned good idea.
I disagree that a coyote cannot think or rationalize in some way. Maybe not in the way that we do, but in some rudimentary way, I believe that they are able to look at a situation, recognize the options before them and make some sort of decision as to which option best suits their needs at the time. Scott told of the coyote that laid down until he passed by, then stood up and crossed the road behind him. Random behavior? I’ve seen coyotes do that with a pack of greyhounds on their butts, choosing to speed up and cross the road in front of another truck, or slam on the brakes and let the chasers get by them first, or run like hell in a mile-long straight line knowing of where a pond tube is where they get in and hope nothing comes in behind them. I’ve seen mature coyotes, upon hearing the doors on the dog box drop, drop to the ground in a tight ball out of the dogs’ sight while his partner keeps running, and then stay there until all the hounds have passed him by in hot pursuit of his soon to be former mate, only to rise and run back the way he came from once he felt the coast was clear. I’ve seen coyotes deliberately lead greyhounds onto a highway and time things as such that all he hears just moments before he makes his escape for good is the sound of screeching tires and yelping dogs. Hell, just the fact that a coyote is “smart” enough to recognize the value of going downwind should tell you something. Straight in or downwind first? Two options, consider both and select the one that offers the best likely outcome. How do you define “rationalize”?
Fact is, IMO, e-callers are more to blame for so-called call-shy coyotes because they offer limited sounds and are misused by more people with less experience than hand calls are. Operator error. Those that rely solely upon e-callers are often less woods wise, and by virtue of the fact that they chose technology over good old fashioned hunting savviness (is that a word?), their choice not to take the hard road and learn to actually call a coyote is their nature. The smart coyote hunter recognizes the value of being dynamic in his approach to calling, recognizing what others are doing and avoiding that like the plague, and always having a new strategy in the works to keep the coyotes from patterning your efforts due to your repetition, whether that means new sounds on the e-caller, mixing up the cadence you use, calling at a different time of the day, from a different spot, using a different sound, going to hand calls, getting in close versus trying to get them into the open, or whatever.
Fact is, the coyote is doing as much to outsmart you as you are to outsmart him. With his ears, his eyes and his nose, I’m surprised that any of us can get any of them anyway. Thank God they don’t have opposable thumbs!
Edit to add "what Cal said ^^^". LOL
[ December 27, 2010, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 27, 2010 07:25 PM
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Semp
GOLD STAR MEMBER
Member # 3074
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posted December 27, 2010 09:35 PM
quote:
Fact is, IMO, e-callers are more to blame for so-called call-shy coyotes because they offer limited sounds and are misused by more people with less experience than hand calls are. Operator error.
There is a lot of truth to that. But why? I think it has a lot to do with the fact that there are more coyotes now (in the East anyways) than ever and coyote calling is gaining in popularity. New guys are coming to the sport who are good hunters of deer, turkeys, or whatever but are new to coyotes. Plus there are few experienced coyote callers willing to teach them.
How many times have I heard on this board and elsewhere "I'm not taking a newbie calling. They are ruining the sport and there's too many of them. Why bring in competition?" So the new guy buys an e-caller, watches a video and heads to the fields and woods to learn to call by trial and lots of errors. The result is he educates lots of coyotes along the way while trying to learn the game.
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Always remember: That court appointed psychiatrist is not your friend.
Posts: 406 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Aug 2008
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 27, 2010 09:51 PM
I've taken a few out into there areas. I found that it was mostly a waste of my time, they find out they don't have the time or patience to call coyotes or the resources to do it.. Talked with one guy recently and found he only went out once last year and none this year.
From reading on other boards the big craze now it trail cameras, set it up and go home to a nice warm house and wait for the action..LOL
[ December 27, 2010, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted December 28, 2010 12:46 AM
good post cdog. i agree with most of what you said. seems everyone has a e-caller nowdays. however, i seldom see human tracks going out into the deep snow we've had here for the last 3 years.however, i do see lots of places people pull off in an approach or field and get out of the vehicle and mill around. alot of spots are in a good spot for coyotes but the snow is just to deep for (most) to get out over the next hill. i suspect alot of this activity is a foxpro on the roof type thing
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 28, 2010 07:07 AM
I'm sure this goes for areas other than where I hunt, but I sure don't have the luxury of glassing a coyote before I call to it. For you guys that do, "I hate you"... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Based on the fact that I can't visually confirm if a certain sound is being ignored (or not), it very well could be that the coyote I call in after an hour+ long stand just strolled into hearing range of my calls in the last couple minutes and responded rather promptly. So I'll never know for sure if I kilt a 'call shy' dog, or a willing 'passerby'...
Of course, I'll never be able to prove/disprove this theory, but I can deduce that on afternoon stands calling into 'bedding' type thick brush, a coyote will sometimes WAIT for the cover of darkness to make it's approach to the call.
Example:
If I've made my approach to call a small woodlot with stealth & mindful of the wind, I can sneak within a few hundred yards of thick cover where I suspect a coyote is tucked in and within earshot. In this scenario, ANY coyote within this woodlot will be able to hear the call. But I've hedged my bet that at least one coyote is in there, so I go for broke and will sit this stand til I can't see 'chit for dark...
Sometimes, I'll get lucky & have one come within the first few minutes. On other occasions however, I'll catch one just past 'deer legal' shooting hours sneaking in for a lookee-loo. In either of these situations, I'M HAPPY 'cause I got one!
BUT....sometimes after breaking stand & trudging out in the dark, I've had coyotes open up & howl literally AT my stand location, AFTER I've left it for lack of light...
So my question to the pros here is:
Are these coyotes that wait til dark to approach exhibiting a learned behavior attributed to being 'call shy'? Or is this just the cautious nature of an adult coyote, akin to a big buck waiting to enter a crop field after dark?
wadda ya think???
[ December 28, 2010, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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32below
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2075
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posted December 28, 2010 07:23 AM
Ain't the tool
Tis the operator
Posts: 100 | From: SW Kansas | Registered: Nov 2007
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted December 28, 2010 07:40 AM
Scott and others having trouble with slow computers: Do yourself a favor and buy Pitstop Optimize 3, and run it every day. It takes you about two minutes to keep your computer humming. Best of all, when it shows the things that are wrong, you can trust just clicking "Optimize", and not be concerned that you might be eliminating something you need for some other program to work properly. IMO, you are far better off paying the extra $9.95 and getting the cd for backup. It allows you to install the program on up to 4 computers and it is good for one year. They normally offer a special deal for renewals done on time. It is recommended by Cnet, which is a great site for getting the scoop on products for the computer.
Like a lot of other similar programs, they offer a free scan, but it does not find or correct anywhere near what the paid for program does.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 28, 2010 08:00 AM
....or, just get a Mac.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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