This is topic Howled in 5!!! in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by RAEmmons (Member # 282) on March 02, 2004, 06:46 AM:
First time ever I've got more than two dogs two come in at one time.
Well we hadn't got any responses to howls or distress calls all day. Finally I decided to try something different. I remembered reading that during mating season many coyotes(male) will go with out food searching for females in heat.
Well I changed locations, set up at an edge of an open field surrounded by woods. By the way the Wind was blowing 20mph+ and we could not set up in favor of the upwind side but had hoped the cliff behind would cut down most of our sent.
So I made some high pitched wimpers and soft howls.
after the second set and about 4 minutes here they straight in front of us. It was Awesome at first i just saw a 4 or 5 black dots weaving in and out of formation headed our way. I made a move to get them in my scope and by that time they had stopped and began sniffing the air. I knew I better take a shot quick. So I picked one, he almost all black in color and gave him a 155gr. Amax at about 200 yds. It was cool because I actually saw him drop in scope before getting beat up by the recoil.
The Rest of the story is not good. My gun malfunctioned and all I got off was three more clicks. My no-shooting buddy got off 5 rounds and made alot noise but no coyote from him.
Oh well it was fun to see that many coming in. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 02, 2004, 04:46 PM:
Dang! I'll have to try that one! And, with a 20MPH wind!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Weedwacker (Member # 329) on March 14, 2004, 04:09 PM:
Guess that's 4 that'll be left for next season (little smarter though). 155gn a-max? Did you get him with a .308? Would like to see a pic if you can, sounds like a nice looking dark coyote.
Posted by Saddlemaker (Member # 321) on March 16, 2004, 08:07 PM:
Gosh RA,
Your still hunting coyotes during breeding season and shooting at them with none expanding bullets?
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 16, 2004, 08:44 PM:
Saddlemaker,
What is the difference between shooting coyotes in March and deer during the rut?
And since when are Amax non-expanding?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 17, 2004, 03:37 AM:
Not that I wouldn't love to engage anyone in a debate over the demerits of shooting coyotes after the fur is no good, but that's been done and it didn't sway anyone from what they came into the fight thinking. Therefore, I'll take this opportunity to go back to the original intent of the thread and say,
Very good! Last year, I did the very same thing - five of them. I howled them from about 400 yards to just under twenty when I took the middle-most dog. Seconds later, I killed his sister less than ten feet from where he lay. The other three got away, but that didn't matter. That thirty second window of time stands out as the single most intense stand I've ever made in over two and a half decades of calling. Congratulations.
Posted by Saddlemaker (Member # 321) on March 17, 2004, 11:01 PM:
Tim,
Hornady says the A-Max is designed for target work and shouldn't be used for hunting because of expansion concerns. E-mail them.
I don't kill does with fawns and I don't shoot coyotes that may have pups in the den or are raising them. I figure each of us travel our own road and that's the road I choose to travel but to each his own. I'm not putting anyone down.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 18, 2004, 01:14 PM:
quote:
Tim,
Hornady says the A-Max is designed for target work and shouldn't be used for hunting because of expansion concerns. E-mail them.
I'll be damned, I guess I never read the small print on the box before. I've been using the 162 Amax in my 7 MM for a few years. Best hunting bullet I've ever found for it. I don't recall ever loosing an animal shot with one, or had to go looking very far to find it.
I wasn't trying to pick a fight on the other, It just grips me when others try to impress their personal morals on others. I tend to lay off of them from mid-March to mid October, but that's due to personal choice.
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on March 19, 2004, 01:33 PM:
Tim
What if Christmas comes early and you stumble on to a new call, build a new spotlight or the wife lets you buy a new gun, or all three, are you going to wait untill Oct.? Temptation, temtation. As for me I look for Excuses. But that's just me.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 19, 2004, 03:30 PM:
Oh I still make exceptions. Yesterday morning for instance, I took one of my boys out and he killed his first coyote with a rifle. I lost my new howler, so we had to go hunting again this morning to find it. Didn't' get any coyotes, but we had three groups give us hell on the last stand.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 19, 2004, 04:30 PM:
I don't know exactly what is meant by "expansion concerns"? From the diagrams of the A-Max, they look like they would open up like a can of worms, and in 7mm/30 cal. that seems to be a good choice, if you want dead coyotes?
Some folks are seriously hunting fur, so there are high caliber bullets that generally do less damage, unless they hit major bone.
Out here, almost all the predator hunters I know are contest hunters, or 95% anyway? We respect the denning season, to a man. Just the way it is. However, I have no problem with anyone that hunts between March and June, and that's the consensus of most, hereabout. Shooting a wet bitch doesn't concern me at all, from a moral perspective; I just don't do it.
My point of view; I think the hunting is generally poorer, in denning season, and I would rather invest my time during the fall and winter.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on March 23, 2004, 05:13 PM:
I don't know if I could afford to wait until fall to hunt the way gas prices keep going up. I've gotta figure a way to hunt from the wife's car, if it gets much higher. Maybe put a big skylight in the minivan for night hunting.
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on March 24, 2004, 11:26 AM:
There is a difference between the location of McNeal Az., San Diego, Ca. and S.E. Ok. There are not any pups in the den here yet. Females are still in heat, and yes they are breeding, BUT don't try and drag that into the liberal view with leaving pups to die in a den. Our ranchers and farmers in SE ok, don't give two shakes of a lambs tail about the yote, other than they don't want them destroying, Harrashing, their means of a living ,Founded or not. Almost all of our land here is private, if your are not getting the job done in their eyes, you may loose your spot, as they want somebody there to remove them.
I don't normally hunt HERE, from April on , unless as stated one of my guys are having a problem. I shot one a few years back that was far enough along into gestation that I could easily tell she had pups in her, I didn't like what I witnessed personally so I put that stipulation on Myself.
It is proven fact that you can't kill them all out by the means that we all enjoy, so lay off the imposing views on others. RA, whom I have met just briefly, at the hunt that He put on, is not the oaf that the post was trying to bring out.
Good for you RA, the challenge howls are starting to work, I let them start the challenge and I only escalade as they do. I learned this from Higgins and it has proven very effective, not many in our area wait until the coyote starts it so it will work in areas that have been howled often. The female invitation is also effective still. Good job, and thanks for the time and effort on the hunt, I look forward to next year.
Posted by Saddlemaker (Member # 321) on March 24, 2004, 09:51 PM:
Leonard,
A-max's are target bullets by Hornady. By their nature they are manufactured to make tiny groups, not expand. The hollow point is different with a smaller meplate and the lead core has antimony added for hardness. It is Hornady's opinion that their target bullets should not be used for hunting because they probably will not expand. Sierra has the same caveat on their target bullets i.e. 22cal 52 BTHP &30cal 168 BTHP international. Since they make the bullet I trust their judgement even though I like that 52 in my triple deuce. You look at that high ballistic co-efficent and think it sure would be great for those long shots but if all it does is drill a hole it is of no use.
Some of those new to handloading may read these threads and think it is o.k. to use the target bullets for hunting so I thought I would post a different point of view.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 25, 2004, 06:54 AM:
In my opinion the only true test is on game. I have shot hundreds of coyotes with Sierra 70 grn HPBT Match bullets in my .243 and it is a hard bullet to beat. I have never had one pencil thru at ranges of a few feet to over 400 yds. They are flat out coyote stompers. I now am shooting 68 grn Bergers, but in the M.E.F. so they are designed to expand, and they do so nicely.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 25, 2004, 07:28 AM:
quote:
a different point of view.
Sounds fair, here's mine:
First off, you can't kill what you can't hit. Therefore I believe you should use the most accurate load combination you can find in your rifle.
Second, I can't buy the claim that match grade bullets have a problem with under expansion. As one who has used quite a few match grade bullets for various animals, I've never found one that didn't expand rapidly. Match grade bullets tend to have very thin jackets, while hunting bullets generally have thicker jackets. These thicker jackets cause slower expansion at higher impact speeds. If you hit an animal with too low of an impact speed, the bullet won't expand at all.
By the same token, you don't want to use a large match grade bullet at a high impact speed on game that you want to save the fur or meat. The rapid expansion will make for a large wound channel and exit.
Blanket statements, just don't work. You need to match the bullet to the game you are hunting, and the distance you expect to shoot at. At point blank ranges, inside of two hundred yards, the gameking bullets work great. But if you plan on reaching out further, you will have a lower impact speed, need a higher degree of accuracy, and need a bullet with thin walls to expand.
Another thing to look at. Bullet manufacturers need to sell bullets to stay in business. The more variety they offer, the more they sell. They don't want you to buy just one type of bullet, they want to sell you several different boxes.
There are just too many lawyers in the US putting disclaimers on everything they can get paid to touch. With a little common sense, you can match a bullet to it's intended use and find there is a special niche that your best choice for hunting, is a match grade bullet.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2004, 07:40 AM:
Saddlemaker, I appreciate your input, and the reasons.
I have personally used many bullets that are designed and intended for target shooting. Some of them work very well for other purposes.
I agree with Cal, that the only real way to find out, is to try them....or talk to someone else that has tried them; in the same application, under the same conditions. This is a method better suited for varmints and predators than African trophy hunting, but somebody has to be the first to actually try it.
As far as the reasons for the noble honesty, on the part of Hornady, we can thank their lawyers. In this "sue happy" country, you have to watch your back. Whether a coyote hunter would demand retribution if he had a runner while using an A-Max; it's probably unlikely?
But, I fully understand the caveat on bullets intended for target work. It depends on terminal velocity, to some extent, as well as jacket thickness. The hydrastatic shock alone is lethal, but that A-Max tip looks like a blasting cap for a stick of dynamite.
Years ago, Sierra was not so "helpful" in labeling their products. Now we have categories and sub-categories; Pro Hunter, etc. Aside from that, practically every 6mm HP made by Sierra makes a great predator bullet, hard to go wrong.
Cal, more power to you, sir.
BUT. That 68 grain Berger is a bullet that I would never use again. I lost X number of animals, one miserable night, using that bullet! No moving targets, no bad hits, just poor terminal performance. Maybe they have redesigned it?
(this was before they started offering the MEF meplat in a number of different bullets, the normal target bullet with a small HP)
Good hunting. LB
edit: I see that Tim posted while I was writing, and covered some of the same ground. (great minds think alike)
[ March 25, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 25, 2004, 11:36 AM:
I know where you are coming from Leonard. But the MEF stands for Maximum Expansion Factor. They have a bigger HP and the noses are scored to facilitate rapid expansion. Completely different than their match bullets. I think they were designed for the prairie dog crowd, but they will anchor a coyote harder and faster than anything I have personally used. They are great when your goal is a flat coyote with no runners. I used them at the contest at Rawlins, and my partner there is a Gov. trapper/denner wanted to know what the hell I was shooting. Needless to say that is what he shoots now. We killed 9 coyotes of which I shot 5. His were just as dead as mine, but he had spinners and the 15 yd dashers. I never had one take a step, unless you count the one I shot running flat out, and he slid about 20 feet on his nose. Try the MEF's Leonard, I'll guarantee you'll like them.
Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 216) on March 25, 2004, 05:49 PM:
A few years back I tried some 52 grain amax by mistake in my 22-250 and they seem to react like a vmax until you get out a few hundred yards then they become more of a hole puncher but still did the job.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2004, 06:27 PM:
That's a very interesting comment, hawkeye.
Actually, it applies to a wide range of bullets, and the velocities they are driven, and the terminal effects.
One of my very best coyote killing rigs uses a heavy target bullet with a tiny wennie HP, but I drive it at extreme velocity; therefore it opens up with a sort of "controlled" expansion, and always exits. This is my version of a perfect combination, especially for predators.
This is why it's so important to discuss all the variables, including the MV and the rifling twist, and the expected and random ranges to your target.
Picking a good bullet for your application is an evolving process; at least it can be.
One more thing. Cal mentions the MEF Berger. That is a development based on the demands of the live target fraternity. But, be careful. Depending on your initial velocity, and if you are using some hot rock chambering, this point style can cause surface splashes, and, in some cases, they will actually blow up in a puff of smoke before reaching the intended target. That's another lesson I have learned, personally. Emperically, you might say.
Keep good, accurate records. When you find a good bullet that does what you want, be happy.
Good hunting. LB
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