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Posted by Larry Darby (Member # 558) on February 08, 2005, 02:41 PM:
Just can*t seem to get these eastern dogs interested. Any ideas for this frustrated eastern hunter.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 08, 2005, 02:50 PM:
WElcome to the New Huntmasters, Larry. Glad to have you on board.
Not much help here, except to suggest that you stick with it, don't quit. Major Leaguers are lucky to hit .300. If you have a few dry holes, that's part of the game. I know those that have hunted coyotes for years without success.
Good luck, LB
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on February 08, 2005, 02:52 PM:
Larry, what type of terrain are you calling?
If you are calling open fields and pastures, you may not get the type of response you desire.
Consider calling closer to the edge of the wood line or along fencelines or sloughs where there is more cover for the coyote to hide in while they are approaching. Watch the wind. If you are certain there are coyotes in the area, don't hessitate to call for 30 minutes from a spot, then move 600 to 800 yds and call again... Sound travels differently in your terrain than it does here in the west so it is possible that the coyotes aren't hearing your call, even though they are in the area....
Good luck...
Posted by Moose57 (Member # 333) on February 08, 2005, 09:06 PM:
The dogs are pairing up this time of year. Might be time to switch to howling (if you haven't already). Lone howls and pup distress sounds can be effective.
But most of all, keep after it.
Good luck,
Paul
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 08, 2005, 09:11 PM:
Larry,
Eastern coyotes are a little diffrent to hunt. If your hunting in PA then your going to have some of the same stuff to hunt that I do here in Oh and Ky. I will try to help you out a little.
Say out of the fields,these coyotes dont like to cross the open areas during the daylight, get down in the cover with them, call next to the thick cover were they are holing up for the day. Run the ridge lines and drop off the point into the hollows and call. You dont haft to move far between stands to call, sound doesnt travel as well in the woods and thick cover, 300-1000 yards in between some of my stands.
Use the fence lines drians, saddles, low gaps, creak beds in your set ups as much as you can, coyotes like to move in these areas to get from point A to point B, they will also use these to get to your calls. I call some nasty cover, some stands I can only see and shoot 25 yards. Dont be afraid to get down in the thick stuff with them.
Set up with a cross wind, try to keep the open areas to the down wind side, that way in order for them to get down wind they haft to cross the open field. If you must call a field then set up on the edges and try to work them down the edge to you. Or set your partner up to were he has you coverd, on the down wind, These wood coyotes are bad about going down wind and you will never see them. Tough hunting the woods with out a down wind shooter.
One of the main things here in the East is to make sure there are coyotes in the area. You cant call them if they are not there when your there. Do some scouting and find were they are feeding at night and were they are holing up in the day, In farm land,they will travel to feed and the sign will be there but they maybe bedding up three farms away during the day. I spend alot of hrs out howling at night finding coyote to hunt. And just as much time finding were they are in they are spending there daylight hrs. But it pays off.
Dont give up, its tough here in the East. 7 to 15 stands between coyotes is not uncommon here. Watch the wind, it likes to change here alot and it will kill you if you get down to low in the hollows.
Try to stay away from the areas that get pounded hard by road hunters, get back off the main roads. I been known to walk 1 mile in to make a stand before. Calling here in the east is diffrent and it takes a little while to get the feel for your set ups, your set up here in the east is the key! Once you have a couple good stands and get a responce you will get a feel for what your set ups will need and what to look for. Once you do, you got it! Hope this helps if you got any thing you want to ask go ahead I will try to help you as much as I can.
Brent
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 09, 2005, 03:43 AM:
All that stuff Brent just said... AND...
SCOUT!
Locate packs with howlers or sirens on nights you don't intend to hunt. Find denning locations during times of the year you don't intend to hunt. Look for tracks and scat during hours of the day that you don't intend to hunt. Get to know the animals you are hunting and how they behave when you're NOT chasing them.
One reason I have the success I do (and I'm sure this applies to Brent too) is that I spend around 100 days a year in a treestand hunting whitetail deer. The scouting, preperation and STAND TIME I spend for whitetails definatly gives me an advantage when I switch gears and go after coyotes. If I weren't spending so much time in the woods chasing various game, primarily deer in the fall, I would have to spend a lot of extra time scouting for the coyotes I hunt.
Hope this helps. And don't let em' fool ya, Quitting is so under-rated !!!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
JK
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 09, 2005, 12:14 PM:
Save up your gas money and head out west where it's a lot easier to kill coyotes.
It's kind of nice having a seasons worth of our coyotes, show up on one stand.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 09, 2005, 04:51 PM:
Your right, Its great out West but there is some good hunting here in the East as well. Most of out coyotes are big and nice color phases here in the East as well. And I enjoy the challenge!
JRB,
Your right on target, not just my deer season but Turkey season to. And I spend alot of time out at night in the spring and summer out howling for coyotes. I spend the spring and summer and early fall out finding were they are dening, or hunting at night. Plus I enjoy it. I love to howl and just set back and take in all of it. Thats one of the best learning tools you can get.
Brent
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 10, 2005, 03:54 AM:
It's amazing how often you'll find yourself on a howler if you just carry it with you. I locate my turkeys in the spring with a howler a lot. Also, I find myself in situations during bow season (Oct-Nov) where whitetails will hang up under my stand in the evenings and leave me sitting there in the dark... instead of spooking the deer out by climbing down and blundering through the field after them on the way to my truck I just lean back and let out a good howl. The field clears, I leave, then ten minutes later the deer are right back out there browsing and still have no idea I'll be back in that tree the next evening.
I also enjoy taking a howler along on my night time catfishing trips... you can really get some long range replies while you are out on a lake or river. The sound just echoes across that water! This is a good way to keep up with the coyotes behaviour during the summertime without much extra effort... I'm already out there at 2 a.m. so why not find out whats going on?
My biggest problem is finding a howler that I like and is compact enough to take along everywhere I go. My favorite at the moment is the Dan Thompson Red Desert and it's not the most comfortable thing to wear around your neck all year long. I like the open reed so that in some of those situations (Especially during whitetail bow season) I could throw out some coaxing distress sounds with it and pop a coyote if needbe. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 10, 2005, 06:46 AM:
KeeKee- I appeciate your knowledge. I would like to ask you a few questions about hunting pressure.
Coyote huning in our area has boom to say the least- Went out last friday night saw 4 other trucks with hunters.( 4 years ago- never saw a truck or lights) I am not upset about that, but understand that everyone is using electronic calls and very few mouth. I am about 1 year from selling me elctronic JS and move to only mouth calls.
What do you use? We had a female reply last year ( I think it was female- she would not budge. But replied to our call everytime with howl- and mild barks not extremely agressive.
We started to travel deeper into the woods- Harder with the amount of snow we get.
Last week we had a pack reply to our group howl-2 men on 2 different howlers worked great. They were coming and we were ready but lights from a truck messed it up. When they howled back the last time one coyote was barking more agresssive and not happy. Should have I mimicked that bark back?
Also have you had females call late a night 2-3:ooam- during mating season?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2005, 08:40 AM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Pa Teeny. Glad to have you on board.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 10, 2005, 08:45 AM:
Thanks- new to this site and love seeing what is going on in the coyote world. It is intresting how fast coyote hunting has boomed. I meet Mike Dillon from Fox-pro yesterday at the Harrisburg show. Told him I would buy the new unit if he had it. (PS made in PA) Even though I am leaning more towards mouth calls.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 10, 2005, 09:21 AM:
Pa Teeny,
Hunting pressure here has tripled! During fur season here there re people out every night with e-callers fox calling and now they are targeting coyotes as well. So, I know how you fell, and I see the same thing here in Ohio.
One thing I done is I get back off the roads, I may start at daylight and map out a big cirlce and hunt my way back to the truck. I may make a 6-7 mile swing and not get back to the truck till dark. Scouting has helped alot, I try to locate enough groups to get me threw the season with out pounding the same ones over and over.
I dont call the open fields, I call the woods. Most caller set up and try to call these eastern coyotes across the fields and some will cross but most wont. I call the thick cover and try to stay away from the popular night calling spots. I also call more during the day than night this time of year.
As for the howling, If I get one all worked up, most of the time I just give them back just what they give me. Im not a bit afraid to bark back at a coyote. I killed one a few weeks ago that barked at me all the way in till I shot him. He never did howl he just barked at me and I returned the barks, he came in on the down wind side and I was waiting on him. Lots of callers wont bark but hasnt seemed to hurt me any.
I do alot of puppy howls now thanks to Rich Higgens, and I love the puppy wines and crys they are one of my favorites on coyotes that just want to set there and not come on in.
I use a ELKs howler that has been re-worked. As for destress sounds I run alot of bird destress, fawn destress, puppy destress, howls, and cat destress. I blow alot of diffrent destress sounds. Some on custom calls I make and some on sceery Ap-6 and 7. Mini-blaster, Criter calls. Keven lukens calls, and several custom calls made by diffrent callmakers.
This is a tough time of year here, there is no sure fire way all you can do is mix things up and the down wind side of your set up is the side to watch. Most of the last few coyotes I have shot the last mounth have all been on the down wind side.
Brent
[ February 10, 2005, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: keekee ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 10, 2005, 10:33 AM:
Here's a picture of a open country eastern coyote that was shot yesterday morning.
Oops! Me Bad, that coyote was shot about 30 miles west of the big river. It's a western coyote. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Btw that's Mike my calling partner in the picture
[ February 12, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 10, 2005, 12:26 PM:
KeeKee,
What part of southern Ohio you from. I got to spend 1 week a month down in the Batavia area (near Cincinatti) for work. I did some practice calling in the off season near the East Fork Recreation area after work, and had some good responses. I ended up getting moved to a different job in Oct, and missed the fur season. Good coyote and fox numbers in the area, but filthy with raccoon.
But things still are different concerning coyotes the farther east you go. Pretty good difference in the way they respond west to east within our own PA borders. I'm not quite sure what accounts for this. Maybe it's more human interaction, pressure, food, I just don't know.
The coyotes are here because the trappers and houndsmen stack up quite a few. But calling them here is just flat out tough. One has to experience it to understand it.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 10, 2005, 12:55 PM:
Im right down on the most Southern tip of the state of Ohio, right on the Ohio river. Im 20 min from Wv or Ky.
The place you were talking about is around a three Hr drive for me to get to from here. There are good coyote and fox numbers up that way though, I make it up there at least once a year and more if I can.
Brent
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 10, 2005, 01:42 PM:
Hey larry, I do not know how close Mercer is to New Castle, but I will be doing a seminar on Friday night the 25th of this month for a fundraiser event for Laurel High school in New Castle.
The plan right now is to do a seminar on wildlife calling in general at 6:00pm and then do another on Coyote calling specifically at 9:00pm.
If you can make it maybe we could spend some time talking about your situation. That would be a great primer for me if we could talk between the two programs so I can work some of your questions or comments into my program.
Hope you can make it.
[ February 10, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2005, 01:59 PM:
Larry Darby, you won't get too many better offers than that! And, he's a good old boy, too.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 10, 2005, 02:35 PM:
Gerald,
You wouldn't happen to be comming up a week early, by chance, would you? It would be perfect timing for one of our biggest coyote hunts in the state. That would give you plenty of insight and fodder for your seminar.
http://www.mosquitocreeksportsmen.com/Rules%20&%20Regulations.htm
Posted by Larry Darby (Member # 558) on February 10, 2005, 03:38 PM:
Gerald, New Castle is close to Mercer and Ihave been to the sports show in Laurel before. I will try to attend the show and hope to see you there. Thanks to everyone who sent suggestions. I think maybe we've been hunting open fields too much. I've seen George Brint call coyotes in on a Primos video and he got them to come across open fields. He hunts in Tenn. I'll never quit trying-I'm having too much fun.
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 10, 2005, 04:21 PM:
Hooo boy! I wouldn't miss that chance if I were you. It certainly got my attention.
Posted by buck poison (Member # 563) on February 10, 2005, 04:57 PM:
Gerald,
I'm a huge fan of yours!
[ February 10, 2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 10, 2005, 05:32 PM:
buck poison,
You're full of shit.
You've obviously never met the man, or you'd hate yourself for the crap you just posted.
He's retired from selling calls, He's involved now simply out of a love for the sport, and because he loves to help people.
He may have made only 10 posts, but compared to your two, he's on a roll. If you notice, you've never seen him slam some one or post derogatory BS like you just did.
You should take a few lessons from Gerald. He will not only teach you how to kill coyotes, but you might learn a few things about becoming a decent human being.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 10, 2005, 07:04 PM:
Tim is absolutey correct. I can't think of a finer individual that Ive ever met among the predator hunting fraternity. A guy could be quite pleased with his own character, if he was half as gracious and knowledgeable about predator hunting as Gerald Stewart is.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2005, 08:25 PM:
Yeah, and it's crap like what's posted above that discourages Gerald from sharing with the rest of us, a lot more often. I'm just going to delete your posts, "buck poison". If you want to join in, in a civil manor, I might not ban you?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 10, 2005, 08:27 PM:
buck poison pen, I have hunted with and videoed some of the most successful callers in the nation:
Scott Huber, Cal Taylor, Quinton Wagoner, Tim Behle, Byron South, Leonard Bosinski, Tom Bechdal, Brent Saxton, Bruce Kennedy, Gerry Blair, and Gerald Stewart. Geralds technique is rock solid and he can hold his own with anyone.
You Sir, apparently have an agenda and are suspect. Do the initials B.M. mean anything to you?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2005, 08:28 PM:
I was thinking the same thing, Rich.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 10, 2005, 08:53 PM:
Damn, I thought this was going to be a good thread!
I will tell you this Gerald is welcome in my calling spots anytime! And any tips or advise he gives you can be taken to the bank!
Brent
Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 11, 2005, 04:10 AM:
Gerald - How much is the fee and will there be room for walk ins? I am intrested and would love to hear what you have to say.
If I come I would stay for both shows and bring my buddies.
What topics will you be covering, any videos/ powerpoints?
Mouth calls- electronic,
eastern vs. western coyotes
day time hunting vs. night?
I am in Somerset( exit 110) on the turnpike and will try to make it if I can get a babysiiter or see if the wife is off and will allow me to pursue this crazy coyote stuff?
Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 11, 2005, 04:25 AM:
Gerald there are 2 new castle in Pa- I need to know the zip code or more information. Could you link the schools website.
They are at opposite sides of the state?
Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 11, 2005, 04:37 AM:
Found the school and the web site
http://www.laurel.k12.pa.us/
Thanks see you then if all goes well?
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 11, 2005, 05:20 AM:
Wow, what did I say wrong? Better yet what did he say wrong. I appreciate someone trying to run interference for me but I am a big boy and can take care of myself.
I understand the need to delete negative posts to try and keep the grass fire from turning into a forrest fire. I did a seminar for the Pa Trappers Association in January and managed to get out of town without being tar and feathered so I know there are some nice people in Pa.
If someone is upset because I do not post often on the boards, maybe I should give them a reason for that.
I love the sport of game calling and it has been a joy in my life to try and help others learn how to enjoy it also. When I joined one of the early predator boards I was full time into running our company as well as trying to be involved in the local schools as a PTA president, our local church as well as other community activities.
I found myself absorbed into answering as many questions as I could on that one board out of that compulsion to help others. I woke up one day and found myself going to the board to the degree that it was taking away from the business and other time with my family. That combined with the anxiety of having to deal with those who would attack me with no good justification other than I was who I was....and they evidently did not like that.
I was being attacked by another competitor in the industry who had surrounded himself with like minded individuals who would join in the fracus with the same vitriolic dialouge that was irrational and baseless. I have joked at times that when ever he grunted, they would rise to the surface. I had an affectionate name for them that was based on a particular bodily function that rhymes with his last name. You figure it out.
Those two factors combined to make me decide that I simply did not have the time to spend on the boards doing what I many times had to do all day in my business anyway, that is talk coyote calling. I also felt the presssure from the fact that I could not frequent several or all boards so dropping out all together would eliminate the appearance of favoritism or factionalizing.
It is sad that someone in my position can not feel or try to act like "just one of the boys" because of others expectations, attitudes and actions. That reality has left me wanting on many occassions.
I am not always graceful and diplomatic but one thing I can do is respect others opinion and not feel that I have to tear them down because it is not one I would hold. I wish others could do the same.
Enough of the pity party...I will be in the New Castle 1 hour north of Pittsburg. The program will incorporate powerpoint and DVD visuals as well as call demonstrations. It is for a high school fundraiser and I am looking forward to it greatly.
[ February 11, 2005, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on February 11, 2005, 06:18 AM:
Gerald, have fun with your presentation at the fund raiser;
For those close to this PA location, you should not miss what this man has to offer.
Gerald's family has done more for wildlife calling than all internet boards put together.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 08:59 AM:
I can tell you one thing, Gerald Stewart has a lot of friends around here, in spite of him being able to take care of himself. Truthfully, I would defend any member from unwarranted attack.
I thought briefly, of saving the offensive posts, but it wasn't worth the effort.
The thrust was that Gerald was unlikely to actually do any hunting of the eastern coyote for fear of failure, since he has an undeserved reputation as a famous coyote hunter. He's after a fast buck.
The thing is; hunting coyotes anywhere back east is not an easy accomplishment for a born and raised westerner. It's not a fair measure of skill. I have the feeling that I'd probably not even see a coyote if I hunted several days in Pennsylvania? That doesn't mean they would pull my pants down and call me a phoney. At least, if they did; it wouldn't be fair.
So, depending on who has what kind of attitude, it is a "no win" situation, if you go back there to show the locals how it's done, and then strike out.
If that is what I was up against, I'd say forget it, get somebody else to take the bait. The fact that GS does go there, whether he sets foot in the field or not, that is a positive gesture, not a reason to criticize.
Consider BM as a coyote hunter, versus GS. Apart from being competitors in similiar business; one of those guys (actually) hunts and the other only talks about it.
We are dealing with a troll, an unfortunate byproduct of the Internet community.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 11, 2005, 09:59 AM:
Larry are you hosting the show I see you are from Mercer?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 11, 2005, 09:59 AM:
Gerald, you said,
"I appreciate someone trying to run interference for me but I am a big boy and can take care of myself."
"It is sad that someone in my position can not feel or try to act like "just one of the boys" because of others expectations, attitudes and actions."
Many of us feel at home here because on this board we are "just one of the boys". We occasionally have little squabbles among ourselves, just like most families, but when a troll attacks any of us the rest will "run interference" for him, as we did for you. Many of us know you and have hunted with you and here you are "just one of the boys" regardless of your attitudes, expectations or position. Accept it. The trolls should also.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 11, 2005, 10:41 AM:
"It is sad that someone in my position can not feel or try to act like "just one of the boys" because of others expectations, attitudes and actions."
Gerald, Back when you were asking about what sounds to put on the preymaster chips, I e-mailed you the link to this site for two reasons. One was the fact that I knew some of the members here were familiar with your sound libray and the other reason was that I thought this board would be a "safe haven" for you. As far as I know, everybody here is just one of the boys, except for Higgins. He has moved on up to Guru status..
Dennis
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 11, 2005, 11:14 AM:
Not anymore dennis. Leonard tagged me with that after my one thousandth post. He pulled the plug on that a couple of days later. Too bad.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 11, 2005, 11:20 AM:
Guys,
You can't take the frustrations of the "easterners" to heart so fast. They sit and read these boards, ask questions, and try the advice given to them to no avail. It seems to have boiled down to "show me" at this point, because they believe you don't quite understand what they are up against. Remember, you're talking to guys who may have made 100 or so stands without a response.
Our predator association this past fall invited Byron South up to do a seminar. He was invited to hunt a couple days prior to see first hand what the folks here are up against. Unfortunately he ran smack into a hurricane and ended up hunting in flood conditions, washed out roads, and whatnot. But the whole objective was to get a proffesional on-site, to give us some insight on how to produce more coyote responses, after experiencing the area.
I have hunted coyotes both east and west. And trust me, there is a BIG difference. Discussions on "Coyote Hunting 101" is not going to help these guys. It's got to go to a deeper level, and until someone actually comes here and does it, they won't fully understand these guys frustrations.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 11:49 AM:
Rich, I can put it back, just thought you might be taking it wrong? I was saluting you for your participation, if nothing else.
Hodgen, truthfully, I don't have to go there to understand the problems easterners face. But, what can I do that would benefit? I know what I know. I have no insights, nor does most of the others that share our target rich environment. It's tough, I acknowledge it. In fact, I would go so far as to admit that it's too tough for me, I probably would take up something a little more rewarding, like crocheting?
Other than that, all we can do is commisererate. BUT, sometimes it seems like, back east, there are more coyote hunters, than coyotes.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 11, 2005, 12:09 PM:
Well I think the only time we get more coyote hunters than coyotes, is at these contests. But on the other hand, I don't know if I would classify them "coyote" hunters either.
If an easterner sticks with coyote calling for a couple years, he is either passionate or brain dead, because its alot of cold long stands between responses. My typical season (Oct-Jan) used to consist of 3 nights of calling a week, and on a good year result in maybe 5 responses a season. I much prefer 5 that respond to one stand, as I have experienced out your way.
It seems we got enough coyotes to go round. The trappers and houndsmen seem to be able to stack up a few pretty regular. But consistant success at calling them is far and few between.
Crocheting might be a viable alternative, but it seems I took up air travel instead.
[ February 11, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 11, 2005, 12:32 PM:
Rich,, You didn't take that as being serious?
Dennis
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 11, 2005, 12:44 PM:
Dennis, of course not. I wrote "too bad" that I wasn't a guru anymore. Lost my ten minutes of fame. Just joking Leonard. I prefer not having to contend with that "target" after my name. I have to remember to put smilies or lol after something that can be interpreted in more than one way. Sorry Guys.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 11, 2005, 01:06 PM:
Hunting in the East is tough, thats a fact. In order to stay at it here in the East you haft to love to call and love to predator hunt. And you haft to enjoy it. Thats why alot of the new callers here dont keep calling, after the first year or two they dont get a respnce the quit!
One of the main things here in the East is you haft to find the coyotes. You cant call them if they are not there. And with alot of little farms sometimes its hard to get permission to hunt all of them and be able to put yourself were you need to be at the right time. Its alot of work to kill coyotes here in the East and it takes alot of time to learn all the ins and out of eastern calling. Alot of guys just dont hang in there long enough.
Brent
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 11, 2005, 01:19 PM:
Hodgen, I did a little calling in Pa. this past year. Ohio and Kentucky also. I have video of those states as well as Missouri, Arkansas and Tennessee. I defy anyone to look at those video clips and tell me which state it was shot in. The woods, hollows and pastures in the Ozarks are identical to those in the Laurels. And frankly the coyotes are, in most cases, interchangeable.
Reality check. An eastern caller that comes out here expecting to be overrun by huge packs of yapping coyotes is going to be disappointed. KeeKee is an extraordinarily fine caller. He has a formidible arsenal of sounds and vocalizations. He blanked on a couple of days when he was out here last month. I sent him to one area that I know has good densities. I'm sure he saw lots of sign and I'm sure coyotes heard him. They refused to respond. No surprise, they ARE coyotes. Coyotes in one area should not be judged by coyotes and their behavior in a different area. What anyone experiences in their area at any particular time is what Scott H. calls a "snapshot in time" and does not necessarily apply anywhere else at a given time. The most consistantly successful callers work in generalities more often than in specifics because they are calling the most versatile animal on the planet. In 1825 when the first bounty was placed on the coyote,5 dollars, which was a significant sum back then, the coyote went entirely silent and nocturnal. People thought they had disappeared from the earth while in actuality they were denning in their back woodlots. Coyotes live in downtown Phoenix, they are occasionally spotted in the early am on Central Ave. The thousands of people that walk on those sidewalks during the day are totally oblivious to their presence. Coyotes adapt very quickly to human pressure or the lack of it, and that is one of the major contributors to the difference in general respose rates between east and west coyotes. Still they are all driven by similar social behavior which makes them vulnerable to us. In the west 30 minutes is a very long stand. In the east I have spent more than two hours on stand. Sometimes a caller must be as versatile and adaptable as the coyote.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 01:30 PM:
Yeah, but Rich, we're a lot better shots than they are....duck and run!
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 11, 2005, 01:46 PM:
Hodgen, I appreciate your take on it. It is very different than the typical western calling experience. You have too modify, tweak and be a little more creative than guys in the west. Sounds like you were at the Tunkhannock seminar since you referenced the Coyote 101 program or did you see that elsewhere?
If you were there, were you able to glean anything useful from the 4 hours or was I just creating a hot breeze? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It is a tad bit frustrating when I talk to guys who will profess calling three or four in a season maybe taking 1 or 2 and then to have to hear over and over from guys who say it can't be done. How East is east? Why can guys in Maine take 3 to 7 in a season and so many in Pa take none? Anybody want to spectulate on how that can happen? Maine is east of PA. Shouldn't the calling there be even harder if you subcribe to the East smarter versus western dumber theory.
At the Tunkhannock seminar I had a guy tell me a story of how he had called and killed a coyote this past season. He was struck by how easy it was at that particular stand compared to the # of attempts he had made over the past couple of years. I related to him my belief that he had just happened to hit all the variables right on that stand. It might not come together for another 25 stands in his country. Over here the variables come together more quickly. I think due to these three variables; more coyotes, less pressure, more conducive terrain.
I do want to hunt there very badly and it will happen some day. I have had the opportunity to call in Wisconsin on two 3 day trips(none called), Indiana( two days-two called, none killed), Vermont and Connecticut one pack called none killed), Kentuckey (32 stands - two called and one killed on the last stand of the last morning). Does that qualify me for the Eastern Calling School of Hard Knocks?
My father, my sister and I called in Prime coyote weather in prime calling terrain for three days and came up empty. Does that qualify me for the Western Calling school of hard knocks?
I once had a frustrated coyote caller from Arizona tell me that he had zero success with our caller and bought a very expensive competitors unit and called only one coyote in a seasons worth of calling. Does that make him a blood brother to frustrated callers from the East?
Just food for thought. Don't take any of this as "in your face dialoque". I am simply trying to stimulate reasonable debate because we can all learn from it.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 01:55 PM:
A gentleman just registered on HM with the exact same IP address as buck poison, What are the odds, eh? I expect we will be hearing from him.
One thing for sure, he isn't BM; at least his IP doesn't match up?
Welcome "skunny".
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 11, 2005, 01:58 PM:
quote:
Sometimes a caller must be as versatile and adaptable as the coyote.
That's the point entirely.
And that is what the eastern guys are after from these seminars. They know coyote hunting 101 and they are looking for the next level.
Even after succesfully calling coyotes in New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, Ohio, Wisconsin, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, Nevada, and California. I feel I am adaptable and versatile. But the coyotes I have here in northeast PA give me fits and don't act like any others I have encountered. They are deliberate in their movements, and go from "point A" to "point B" with no distraction.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 11, 2005, 02:06 PM:
So....
Are Eastern Rottweilers harder to call than Western Rottweilers?
Are Western Border Collies dumber than Eastern Border Collies?
They're just dogs. (I said that for Higgins benefit)LOL
I can have bad luck calling just fine where I'm at, thank you very much.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 11, 2005, 02:30 PM:
Leonard, you're on your own, I'm dodging that bullet. Of course shooting proficiency has a lot to do with take ratios. On the club hunt this past weekend we called in 12 coyotes on Sat. and killed only two of them. It was the handgun hunt and we only took two shots. Sun we called in only two and killed 0. 16-18 stands per day, same techniques and style, lots of sign in both areas. Huge difference in response rates and I don't have a clue why. If this hadn't been a contest hunt I would have spent as much as an hour on stand and used coyote vocalizations only.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 11, 2005, 03:13 PM:
quote:
It is very different than the typical western calling experience. You have too modify, tweak and be a little more creative than guys in the west.
Thanks for responding Gerald.
And no "in your face" offence taken here.
I never had the pleasure of attending one of your seminars. I'm not sure where I ever came up with "coyote 101" to be honest.
Not sure if those numbers qualify you for the school of hard knocks or not. But there is a ton of guys here in PA that would give there left nut to get that amount of responses in a year of hard coyote calling.
You have to remember, there is probably going to be about 5000 guys hitting the woods next week, and if memory serves me correct, past kills land between 30-50 coyotes for this contest. And this contest includes houndsmen along with callers. Not a good kill ratio with decent coyote populations.
But you hit the nail on the head with your comments I quoted above. That's the stuff the guys are looking for from a proffesional. They want to learn how to be creative by combining vocalizations and adding that along with a distress sounds. Someone needs to introduce them to the next level.
The problem is they are sick of hearing the same old "a coyote is a coyote" or "call crosswind" or call "for more than 30 mins" from a person who never hunted the area.
I hope you get chance to spend as much time as possible on the tweaks and modifications as you can with this seminar. Then I hope someday you get chance to hunt this state and come back and do another seminar. You'll pack the place.
I sure wish I could attend this one, but it's on the other end of the state. I would enjoy discussing the coyote behavior I have seen here in the northeast portion of our state. It's like nothing I've seen anywhere in the country.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 11, 2005, 03:26 PM:
Have all the fun with "you're better shots" you want Leonard. Fact is, here in PA at least, most shots don't exceed 50yds in the woods. You get the occasional long shot in a field,but not too often. Hell, after about 50 deer. I don't think I shot but one or two over 50yds. 30yds is about the average. You folks are just used to shooting longer distances than we are. Think you westerners even have a term for us easteners....."westernitus".
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 11, 2005, 03:48 PM:
Just received this via E-mail.
.................................................
Eastern coyotes are smarter than Western coyotes. They get away with saying that time after time.
What if it has nothing to do with the coyotes at all?
Could it just be possible that Eastern inbreeding is the culprit here and Easterners just ain't nearly as smart as they think they are? This explains why they just don't know it.
I suppose we could counter that Western Callers are just smarter than Eastern Callers.
It's hard to argue against Westerners.
Westerners call in more coyotes.
Conclusion: They're smarter and better at calling.
Westerners make longer shots.
Conclusion: Their eyesight is much better.
Easterners can hear turkeys walking amongst the leaves.
Conclusion: Their ears are bigger.
Easterners don't call in nearly as many coyotes as Westerners.
Conclusion: They have never learned to use a JS PC3 or they cannot afford a WT.
Easterners think their problem is that they are sick of hearing the same old "a coyote is a coyote" or "call crosswind" or call "for more than 30 mins" from a person who never hunted the area.
Conclusion: if they spent less time sniveling and more time calling they would see more coyotes.
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 11, 2005, 04:13 PM:
Okay Rich,
I haven't read this whole thread yet, I will later. Right now I'm going to blow your last arguement out of the water though.
Which side of the country does Krusty live in? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 11, 2005, 04:26 PM:
LMAO!!!
I like that one Rich
'Cept there should be one concerning arrogence.
Conclusion?????
[ February 11, 2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 11, 2005, 04:32 PM:
LMAO
We dont recieve sheep awards either!
Sorry, Couldnt help it! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Brent
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 11, 2005, 04:48 PM:
If you go East towards Maine and keep going, you'll end up in Washington.
Posted by bearmanric (Member # 223) on February 11, 2005, 04:52 PM:
i live here in washington. there's coyote's to be had. sure it's hard but it can be done. i'm taking a newbie tomorrow he's from seattle he's been trying for two year's with no luck. should be fun. Rick
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 11, 2005, 05:02 PM:
That isnt even fair Jay!
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 05:03 PM:
Jay, those conclusions are similiar to the scientist that kept yelling at a frog to JUMP! and then cutting off one leg after the other. When he had cut the last leg off, and yelled JUMP! and the frog didn't move; his conclusion was that the danged frog became deaf!
OOPS, didn't mean to let slip who (probably) sent that email to Higgins.
Good hunting. LB
edit: and don't be taking shots at poor old Krusty while he's having technical problems and can't respond.
[ February 11, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 11, 2005, 05:31 PM:
Gerald, I'm sorry I had to "meet" you as it is, at a time when hard feelings are hanging in the air. But, seeing your name at the head of some posts made my whole month! I look up to you for what you've done and how well you've done it. When I was just starting calling in the late 70's and early 80's I read your stories in the T&PC I believe. Great stuff. Thank You. Loren Coffin.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 11, 2005, 05:47 PM:
DDDDDamn, Yellerdog, that was unusual cruelty! I'm wounded to the core.
I checked back to see what chaos my ghostwriter wrought and I'm delighted everyone has such a great sense of humor.
Hodgen, what a great question. Everyone knows that arrogance turns to hubris when it crosses the big river, just gotta figure out which direction.lol
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 05:48 PM:
don't feel bad, doggitter, we're all thrilled!
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 11, 2005, 05:50 PM:
Yeah Yellerdog, but he's on the eastern side of the Pacific! LOL
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 11, 2005, 05:52 PM:
Leonard. I think Higgins got those bits of knowledge from and old Indiun Chief from the P:A:P:A:G:O Reverberation.
[ February 11, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 11, 2005, 05:54 PM:
Yeah Leonard, but it's just god damned COOL!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 07:52 PM:
Jay, behave or management may be forced to take away your vowels, again. Besides, your denial is not convincing.
Doggitter, I couldn't agree more.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 11, 2005, 08:16 PM:
Alright then Leonard, I wasn’t aware of the technical difficulty. But, you gotta admit it was funny!
Doggitter, "Yeah Yellerdog, but he's on the eastern side of the Pacific!"
So are you! I guess we're in the same boat.
Now, back to the topic.
As far as the lack of success for eastern callers, I believe much of it has to do with inexperience and poor techniques. The coyote simply has not been hunted for nearly as long in most of the east. In my area of Michigan they just started to appear about 15 years ago. The numbers were still low for a few years after that. In the last 5-6 years the population has really exploded.
So, you take your average eastern caller who has been at it for 3 or 4 years and only really seriously tried for maybe two of those. They try to learn from other “Experienced hunters” who have not been at it much longer. Then the newer guys are trying to learn from somebody with a year or two at it. What you have is the blind leading the blind most of the time. I hear people giving advice to others all the time that is just utter nonsense. Even most of the seminars put on are by people who I doubt have killed more than a couple coyotes. There are exceptions of course, like when Gerald Stewart does them. Those, unfortunately are few and far between.
It is probably true that the eastern coyotes are smarter. They certainly get a fine education from all the new hunters with their fine training by people who have absolutely no business giving advice in the first place.
I personally don’t think it is that hard to call in an eastern coyote. I used to believe it was. That was because I had no idea what I was doing. When I did call them in I seldom had a good shot, due to poor setup. But, I’m not one to give up on things. With a lot of hard work and remembering what I did wrong each time I did call one in I got better at it. Now when I hunt it’s on average one dead coyote per 5 setups. Sometimes I hunt alone and sometimes it’s with a partner, usually Skinner 2. When I hunt with him we average one killed in 4-5 setups. I think that as time goes on and the eastern callers gain more experience, some of the myths about how much smarter the eastern coyote is will disappear and everyone will be more effective. It’s just a matter of better training by people with some knowledge. That is a major advantage a western caller has, he can learn from someone who knows what he’s talking about.
My methods as well as Skinner 2’s vary a bit from Kee’s, but I think our terrain is a bit different.
We setup to call them into the open. Usually a pasture or a field. While they don’t generally cross great open distances to come to the call, I don’t find it any problem to pull them into the open in the southern Michigan farmlands. They have to cross open fields all the time to travel and I don’t think it’s worth sitting in the thickets, where the chance of a clean shot is minimal. I kill about 90 percent of the coyotes I see. That’s probably not going to happen in the woods. I’m not knocking those who hunt that way. Just telling what works for me.
Posted by Alaskan Yoter (Member # 169) on February 11, 2005, 09:01 PM:
"Try hunting here with Krusty"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2005, 10:02 PM:
quote:
try to learn from other “Experienced hunters” who have not been at it much longer. Then the newer guys are trying to learn from somebody with a year or two at it. What you have is the blind leading the blind most of the time. I hear people giving advice to others all the time that is just utter nonsense
Don't sugarcoat it, yellerdog.
Maybe you can get away with it, since you are almost barely an easterner? I forget, is Michigan midwest or east? My geography east of Colorado is a bit hazy.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 12, 2005, 04:03 AM:
Hogden, You make a good arguement. Let me throw out some more food for thought. I have been curious as to why I have not been able to glean useful additional information from videos produced in the east by guys who hunt in the east. Why hasn't anybody ever revealed their smoking gun Eastern secrets to anybody else in the east?
I have listened very closely over the years to customers who have related their successes to me about their hunting in the east. Example: Right before the Tunkhannock seminar I got an email from a guy in Maine that related his sucess to me and I picked up on 4 points that I think make him successful where others may fail.He stated that he (1)does a great deal of scouting and (2)has some large number of tree stands out which he calls from. (3)He mixes coyote and distress sounds at each stand and (4)He sits for at least 30 minutes on each stand.
I have suggested much of those things in my seminars for years. I will now hammer them home in every seminar I do east or west. Scout, scout and then scout some more. Elevate, combine sounds, and be patient.
I wish I had more time to respond right now but I will try to get back before too long. I have to go screen in my mothers front porch today and I look forward to your perspective.
[ February 12, 2005, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 12, 2005, 05:11 AM:
Gerald,
I am not sure there is any smoking gun eastern secrets. If there were, there would be at least a few guys stacking up coyotes like cord wood.
I belong to a state predator club (PPHA) and I get to talk with some of the best die-hard callers in the state. Some of them stack up plenty of fox, raccoon, and call up a few bobcat in a years time. So they have a pretty fair idea of calling techniques. But ask them about coyotes called, you hear numbers like 5 or so a year. One would think after stacking up 50+ fox you'd have to pull more coyote by accident. And it's not that the coyotes are not there. You have plenty of sign, also the houndsmen and trappers are stacking up quite a few.
Only people I know of who are consistantly taking coyotes around my area are not calling them. Some are just accidental encounters. Driving woodlots and shooting them as they run, or patterning them and cutting off their travel roots. I just talked to a guy last night who last weekend his group took 7. But they drove them to the gun.
It's almost as if you can't illicit the predator/prey response out of these things. Most the responses I get here I account to social behavior because I mix in some barks, yelps, and the occasional howl with my distress calling. But I end up looking like the pied piper juggling 3 calls at once. But that combination is a killer out west.
One thing you may want to take into consideration for your seminar is property access. We don't have the huge open huntable lands as other states. We have alot of open land, but it's fragmented. Western PA has bigger parcels, but you're mainly trying to call the coyote into an area you can shoot him.
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 12, 2005, 05:48 AM:
Hodgen,
I would say we are more Midwest here in Michigan. The western guys call us easterner though. East of the Mississippi I guess.
I am very familiar with Pennsylvania. I was born there and spent a lot of time there growing up. Much of the state would present different circumstance for calling coyotes than than southern Michigan. I was telling what works for me.
Gerald,
We can't hunt from treestands for predators in Michigan. Another stupid law by uninformed lawmakers.
I agree with the other three statements 100 percent. It pays to stay on stand for 45 minute on occasion. The last three we called in were right near the 30 minute mark. Those were taken in January, using a lot of howling mixed with some distress.
In this farmland terrian I hunt I think it is also very important to have access to a lot of properties. Most of the parcels I hunt are 50 - 250 acres. I have a lot of them and will only hunt ones where the wind is in my favor on that particular day. Most hunters around my area have 2 or 3 places to hunt and they over hunt them, They then wonder why they can't call them in.
I think success is proportional to the amount of work one is willing to put in scouting and seeking access to land. I hunt only private land and I spend quite a bit of time talking to the owners and secure that access. Most of the new guys are simply to lazy to do that. More suger coating, Hodgen.
Posted by 222 (Member # 567) on February 12, 2005, 06:42 AM:
I can attest to what Hodgen is saying. I have been at this sport for a few years and in that time frame, I have made hundreds of stands. I only know of one occasion in which I had called in a coyote. I can count on one hand how many times I had had vocal responce to my calling.
Based on my experience, the bottom line is if they are in the area, they will respond in some fashion. The key is finding where they are and the only way to do that is spend large amounts of time in the woods.
Another reason for the difference in success is the style of hunting. Most Pa hunters are night hunters. Like hodgen said, the "kill" area is 50 yrds and less. We do not have the ability to see a set of eyes comming from hundreds of yrds away. Ususlly it is a split second encounter and buy the time you realize it, it is over.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 12, 2005, 07:13 AM:
Looks like I’m the man with no country on this one.
I’m stuck half way in-between the east and the west, with no place to call home. Guess I might be classified as a fringe area hunter since most of my setups are made in the transitions area’s between large expanses of open crop ground and the thick, brushy, big timber areas the follow our drainages. Basically all I do is hunt the fingers of crop ground and CRP land that extend into or roll into the big timber and brush areas. Pretty much just try to get them to expose themselves to a position where I can get them shot. Kind of like a Bill Austin quote, “If you want to shoot a coyote, you have to put yourself in a position where you not only can see the coyote, you have to be able to shoot the coyote.”
The thing that amazes me about hunting in the east threads is how similar the terrain is in areas to what I hunt and kill coyotes in. I go to teraserver and look at aerials from the area that some east hunter is struggling with and it appears to me that some of those pictures could be transposed and match up exactly with the places I hunt. And all I hear is that coyotes can’t be shot in those areas. Amazing!
Right now I’m pimping some of those Indiana hunters on IPH board to call those coyotes, into the open, where they can get them shot. I hope some of them will at least try it and think about it some before they say it doesn’t work. Learn to adapt and make it happen.
Dennis
BTW Don't think that calling coyotes in Iowa is easy. We have lots of callers who are having a hard time shooting coyotes. A couple of years ago I took a young man out who went two years without shooting a coyote. The first stand, I lead him into a 80 acre bean stubble field that was over looking a quarter section of CRP. I could sense that he was shaking his head in disbelief and thinking what a idiot I was for setting up where we did. About 6 minutes later he shoots his first coyote at about 60 yards. He told me on the way out that he thought I was nuts, but he did thank me.
[ February 12, 2005, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 12, 2005, 07:20 AM:
Yellerdog,
I agree scouting and gaining access are a big factor. But that again falls within "basics".
We have access into areas, albiet not total access, but the trick is to call them to you. We know the coyotes are there. The scouting is always an ongoing thing.
The baffling part is I can go into a strange area, in other states that I know almost nothing about, and call up coyotes. I travel for work so I get to quite a few different states. But to kill time in the evenings, I go calling for the heck of it.
As an example, I was in the Racine Wisconsin area for a week. I drove around back roads till I saw an area I thought would hold coyotes. Leaned up against the side of the car and started calling a bit. In 6 stands I had 3 coyotes come out to take a peek. I could have shot at all 3 easily.
But yet here I can watch a pair of coyotes cross a field in plain view, blow a bunch of different calls at them, and they don't even turn a head. They just keep traveling on a deliberate route and don't sway from it.
I think one of the weirdest things I see them do is pass up an easy meal of carrion (once froze). The tracks lead right up to a dead deer, and they don't touch it. They continue on sweeping up and down banks and edges, along trails and roads evidently looking for rodents & rabbits.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2005, 08:49 AM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, 222. Glad to have you on board.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 12, 2005, 09:44 AM:
""But yet here I can watch a pair of coyotes cross a field in plain view, blow a bunch of different calls at them, and they don't even turn a head. They just keep traveling on a deliberate route and don't sway from it.
I think one of the weirdest things I see them do is pass up an easy meal of carrion (once froze). The tracks lead right up to a dead deer, and they don't touch it. They continue on sweeping up and down banks and edges, along trails and roads evidently looking for rodents & rabbits.""
That's interesting. First time I'd heard of behaviour like that.
[ February 12, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]
Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 12, 2005, 10:12 AM:
The recently produced Videos and CD have brough on a large surgence of new coyote callers. They make it look easy and everyone is under the impression walk, sit call shoot. Many new callers feel it will happen that way at least in Michigan.
The problem or at least much of the problem is in the lack of access to prime land. The troops of non-caring deer hunters have made this problem for us.
I have been calling in Michigan for about 30 years. I first started calling while deer hunting. I was not able to drive and could only try when I went out with my dad. Coyote number were not high and one killed then drew attention.
Today many years later most if not all the land owners are tired of the problems deer hunters and some small game hunters created. Southern Michigan is almost entirely private. I would go as far asy saying most is 100 acers or less. Permission is and can be very hard to get.
I live one hours drive east of Yellerdog so I guess that would make me more of a eastern caller than him. That being said I have a few properties to call. I have knocked on countless doors only to be turned away. Yellerdog's area is not as bad. The properties are larger and have livestock on them. This grants Yellerdog with more places to hunt when the coyotes kill some sheep or even a cow. Because of his personality and taking ownership of the land he hunts keep him in the good. He has proven to them he is not the "Slob Hunter". Word of mouth goes a long way.
The land I have to hunt does not have live stock but an occasional dog or cat are eaten. The land owners want revenge of the coyotes but only after said luncheon.
I said all this because many other eastern hunter have the same issues. I have spent time calling in State Game Areas. Had to do so if I wanted to hunt. These same areas are overcalled and the conditions are tough. I have been calling these areas and have had another car race between stands THIS IS THE NORM.
The earlier mentioned videos has many going out and buying e-callers. The run out and figure they will be killing coyotes like what the see in the west. Yellerdog and I alway get a laugh out of this and figure most will give up after a few attempts.
I myself have the same tapes and have learned lots from them. I modified what I saw to fit in with my area and style. Without the tapes I would most likely not be howling.
If some of you Western Experts( I mean this with respect) were to check into our local boards you would see how everbody thinks this sport is easy.
Coyotes are here but because of the numbers of them and hunters along with the land differances we work hard for our take. Right now Yellerdogs stand and kill ratios is one if not the best in our area. Some locals call us liers because of our results on other boards. Now add your numbers to that and what do you think they think
It may be easy for some to say I called in coyotes in every state I have ever been in. Then I have a challange for you. Come into Michigan into our state game areas and give it a try. Let us know your results then. Oh and don't put you name on the side of the truck or you will have a parade following you.
Well I have to go have cake and ice-cream for my mother's 81st birthday now. I will check in later.
Skinner 2
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 12, 2005, 10:21 AM:
Doggitter,
The coyotes here are quick to jump on a fresh gut pile from a harvested deer. But once carrion freezes up, they want nothing to do with it. The tracks will circle the carcass indicating they know its there, but no indication of them even attempting to feed on it. I have seen this many times.
Their travel patterns are pretty predictable if one takes the time to figure it out. It seems they have a range that takes a few days to circle the route in one area I know. And come the third evening of this sweep, I can almost set my watch on them crossing a particular field. I can't hunt them cuz the property is now owned by the airport, but I call at them on occasion on my way home from work. It's only a rare occasion they'll even stop and even look my way.
It's a fairly urban area anymore and I sometimes wonder if they managed to somehow adapt their feeding habits as such.
Skinner,
You're absolutely right that it doesn't take long to weed out the less passionate coyote caller in the east.....giggle
[ February 12, 2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 12, 2005, 10:25 AM:
Skinner 2,
You forgot to mention how whenever we post pictures on the local boards we gain all those new hunting buddies!
It seems that all the newbies think they should go on calling trips with us. I have quit posting on one local board due to this. Everytime I posted I would have my email or private message box full of guys wanting to hunt with us!
Posted by skunny (Member # 566) on February 12, 2005, 01:19 PM:
Can I say something?? Guess one must tread lightly here or upset a GS groupie. I'll await permission.
Posted by bearmanric (Member # 223) on February 12, 2005, 01:21 PM:
Lee can i hunt with you please i'll be good.i'll sit still. it is intersting hereing how it is harder. it's tough here in washington that's only becauce of the brush. the eastside of our mountain's is easier earlier in the year got to get away from the Road's.i think our density is as high as arizona just more cover thats why i got a shotgun and some deadcoyote shell's.Rick
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 12, 2005, 01:49 PM:
Rick,
By all means! Be here at my shop at 6:00 am tomorrow morning. That's what time Skinner 2 and I are meeting. we'll be happy to take you along. Just so you sit still like you promised!
Skunny, or is it buck poison?
I don't think anybodies gonna bite on your BS. Leonards on to you.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2005, 01:50 PM:
skunny, (or "buck poison" as you prefer) ....
of course you may contribute! Welcome to the New Huntmasters. Glad to have you on board.
Now, if you think you have a good reason to degrade another member of this Board, and that's your only purpose, then you might not get a lot of sympathy for your views.
Just for your information, JS does make a lot of friends, and I'm one of them.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by bearmanric (Member # 223) on February 12, 2005, 02:02 PM:
I Think alot of Gerald and his father they brought alot into the predator scene. i have alot of johnny stewart tape's i consider them the best superjack kick's butt. i just wish there would be more sound's coming out for cougar's and bear's. maybe Gerald can talk to hunter's specialties. want more sound's for my loudmouth. Rick
Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 12, 2005, 02:44 PM:
Back from the party!
The following comments are based on my experiance in Michigan only.
Much of the problem is wrong information given. The guys in the west would like to help some guys in the east, sure and they have. Few very knowledgeable give seminars here. Most of the information exchanged is from salesman who some I don't think ever saw a coyote but they claim themselves experts. Case in point. A seminar this fall or early winter the guy said not to use howlers at all. They are aggressive calls and coyote will not respond but run away. Now whoever went to this now posts on local BB saying howlers do not work and he was told by an expert.
A factor to a lcak of killed coyotes here is because the caller is not calling in a prime are. WHY he is calling from anyplace he can with hopes of seeing a coyote. Much of the prime land is leased for ALL hunting rights.
Another myth is coyotes don't come out in the open. BULL I have been calling them in the open for years. Yellerdog has now fully moved into the open. True we shoot them following fence rows and crossing but I have also had them cross 280 yards of cut bean fields to get to me. Other say coyotes do not come into the calls fast in the East again BULL. I have been shooting less then the three minute marks and had them covering the ground on the run. I took a female this fall that crossed over 200 yards of open field. I was in the fence that spit another field. They female saw my rabbit decoy and I could not stop her by barking so I had to use my 223. The male with her stood just over 100 yards out broadside. I spotted him after I shot her. He was just 100 yards away from any cover. He died where he stood.
Many callers in the east believe their method is the only method that will work and are quick to point that out. I say try them all and do what works for you.
When I was younger and wanted to get all the information I could it was not to be found. Sometimes my dad's American Rifleman would have an article (Once a year maybe) or Field and Stream. These are where I first saw and heard of calling coyotes. Nobody was here to show me or anyone else how. Internet??? wasn't even a computer in a California garage yet. Lots of trial and error. I did the best I could. I had the Burnham Brother calls even had a call from Herters. I was not until I lost one and replaced it with some Sceery calls and found out I was not calling right. Tried what Ed said and everything fell into place and coyotes started to die on a regular basis.
So East vs West. Coyotes are coyotes. They learn to live with and around people. They are inside our city limits and in our garbage cans. The west in general has by far a larger population then the east. Therefore more coyote will fall in the west. More western callers have been at it for a longer period. More experiance out west. Given the same caliber caller from the east and from the west I feel could stand toe to toe.
Michigan has had for years been one if not the most hunted states for deer. Now these same hunters want a new challange or are mad because a coyote was seen eating one of the "hunters" deer. Now we have a coyote hunting bloom going on. everyone thinks they are the new "RANDY ANDERSON" and are just going to stack them up like cordwood. When this doesn't happep the new hunter feels he is as good as Randy and when the coyote don't fall for them but someone post about killing some then they must be lying.
Here are two links to a newbie, read them and see what he expects. What do you think his reaction will be after the hunt and he fails to have 20 or 30 killed. Just read the first couple posts from each.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88036
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88550
Skinner 2
[ February 12, 2005, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Skinner 2 ]
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 12, 2005, 02:55 PM:
Skiiner 2,
We gonna take my pickup tomorrow or will we be needing a semi to haul em' all out?
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 12, 2005, 02:57 PM:
I enjoyed the "bag limit" question.
But that guy is a raw newbie and probably would benifit from a seminar in "coyote 101". Infact, he probably should start with a hunter education class to get knowed up on the regs. But my guess is his coyote career will be short lived.
Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 12, 2005, 03:59 PM:
Yeller I will bring my trailer also. Loks good for teh am.
Hodgen, Thats my point. These guys are all over. Everytime Yellerdog and I post we get invited to hunt our spots with other so we can show them the ropes. We have even been called liars (polietly though) by others.
I understand where this comes from as I see it all the time. I put the time and effort into what I do. Others don't. They get lucky once or twice and expect it to happen all the time. When it fails for them then the others are lying. I shot tournament archery for Browning. I did so without using a release. My score ranked with the releases shooters. Release shooters call me a liar because they felt the should out-shoot any finger shooter. Other finger shooters called me a liar as they could not duplicate my scores. Everytime I heard this I challanged them to a shoot off. We will shoot together and the winner take the others equipment. They always backed off with an appology! I have the same problem with some walleye fisherman I work with. Just because they don't catch them I must be lying. Well they have now fished along side me in their boats. watched us and now they believe. Well the lasy guy who gave me any grief wanted GPS numbers, I gave him the numbers for a local fish store. It took him over two weeks to figure that out. I mean PARKING LOT! Told he get all the fish you want.
Most times I can call the bluffs and they back off. My stories often end with photo's their do not!
Skinner 2
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2005, 04:30 PM:
Sounds so good, I'm considering asking to come along, myself! After we get a limit, I'd sure like to catch a few walleyes to bring home.
Get in line, eh? LB
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 12, 2005, 04:32 PM:
All I can tell you skinner, is the folks I refer to are not amateurs or newbies. They got plenty experience calling and hunting. You don't put up as many foxes and coons as these guys do without knowing something. Even these experienced folks are having problems consistantly calling coyotes. And as I said, the coyotes are there. The trappers and houndsman do pretty good, but callers are busting their ass to get 5-6 responses a winter.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2005, 04:51 PM:
Well, based on my recent excursion to Kansas, let me offer a simplistic explanation.
These guys are calling coyotes they either don't see, or missing them; if they do see.
Educated coyotes are pretty tough.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 12, 2005, 04:52 PM:
Hodgen,
Not all I refer to are hunting newbies. Many are new to calling. Calling veterans are few and far between here. Traps work 24/7 and can cover more ground. I would expect their take to be higher. Houndsmen can cover alot of ground and force the coyotes out. I have hunted them some this way and know what it takes.
I have no idea what your area is like. I have shot some of the IBO's Tripple Crowns in your state and must say I liked what I saw but not allot of open land. Home many of the callers you know are being busted without never knowing the coyotes are there. I would think many are swinging down wind and scenting them. Yellerdog and I have that probelm here and two people hunting can really help. When have seen quite a few tracks this winter alone where they swung around and bust us. Two weeks ago Yeller was watching one slip in behind me. He was all happy for himself as he never saw coyote work so well into a setup. Yellerdog said the coyote was coming in like a puppet on a string. It came from where we didn't quite expect one. Yeller figured a chip shot at 30 or 40 yards... Well Yeller failed to think of our foot prints in the snow where we came in from. TRhe coyote trotted past the parked truck and continued to him. He said the coyote turned itself inside out and was leaving twice the speed it came in once it cut our tracks. But not fast enough I'm sure this happens more than we think.
Leonard,
You want Lake Erie walleyes, Come on over! But I must warn you we better fish first, they have a limit!
Skinner 2
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 12, 2005, 05:19 PM:
Damn, Skinner 2,
You make us sound so good I think I'll invite myself out to hunt with us tomorrow.
Hodgen,
What part of PA are you in? You may have said and I just missed it. I'm not arguing about it being tough in PA at all. I know the terrian there. Like I said I've spent a lot of time in PA. I've done some deer hunting in the mountains there. I've never hunted coyotes there. I used to have a lot of family in PA, but they've all moved back to Michigan now. I only base my coyote hunting speculations on what I've done in my own little corner of the world. What I do here may have absolutely no bearing on what it takes there. Maybe someday I'll find out.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 12, 2005, 05:22 PM:
I am sure every coyote hunter has some slip down wind. But most I know prep for that situation with a stand set or second guy posted behind.
The latest thing that seems to be producing limited results has been the newer e-calls that let you download your own sounds. They record and download their own calling series because the standard distress doesn't prove much result. Then they stick it way out at the end of the remotes range when applicable and cater to the downwind side. But even that's producing minimal coyote results for them.
I personally stick to mouth calls myself. I travel alot and call when I can. I have visions of airline security having a field day with an e-call in a peice of checked luggage in the back. Something that looks like a flashlight that isn't a flashlight would surely peak their interest. And I have no asperation to find a piece of high dollar equipment in pieces when I get to my destination.
Northeast PA yellowdog
[ February 12, 2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 13, 2005, 03:56 AM:
Hodgen, I feel one vital piece you forgot to tell or remind them is. PA has 1 million hunters -hunting deer on the first day of deer season. That is a lot of pressure.
I was out for 1 day and you guys go nuts. Love to read and discuss. I have been hunt coyote for 4-5 years -no fur- have had pack howls and lone challanges. Feel sick but know we are only improving our skills. I called one in 2 weeeks ago where i could have shoot but thought it was to big - Actually thought it was a deer. (Better to be safe) Passed and only saw it for 2-3 seconds at 120 yards in the woods at 9:00pm. It actaully came in after 15 minutes of calling. We then were ready to leave and said to try a pack howl where we both howled and that woke them up- Great responce - Rookie mistake though- Should have moved deeper into the woods but got set up and thought they would cross an open field to us. NOT. The time is 11:30pm. Waited 45 minutes with calling and responsse tried rabbit in distress- no sighting. Unreal.
That night we saw 4 trucks of coyote hunters. The same night we went to a honeyhole and thought we would call in ones we scouted- Pull in and there are truck tracks inthe snow- I told my buddy some one was here he said no It's private land. Wrong- I heard they shot 3 from that spot, Need to see to believe.
With that said- I am focusing on mouth calls. Easier to make differeent sounds. Our coyotes are able to tell JS from Foxpro- and Dennis Kirk.
It is easy to call fox in our area- I know there time is dwindling because Mr Coyote will wipe him out.
I am willing to bet the Pa Game Commision put out a Coyote stamp to raise money?
I love spending time in the great outdoors and and hunting preditors. I am sure coyote numbers will boom and I will regret those days.
Got to get home- Thanks see you monday. am
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 13, 2005, 03:59 AM:
Hogden, 5 a year may be a very realistic number for the best of callers to expect. Your perception of what are high coyote populations may be different than what ours is. I asked a biologist in Kentucky, who thought they had high numbers, how many coyotes he had seen cross the road in front of him for the previous 6 months and he said 1. Some places I hunt we may see 2 or 3 do that driving to our first calling stand. That is high coyote populations. The highest biologist estimate I have heard of on the ranches I have hunted is 9 per square mile. That is high coyote populations.
You are right about property access. In the west, I can consistently move a half mile between stands all night long. Combine that ability with 3 to 9 coyotes per square mile and you have a years worth of Eastern success in one night. In the east, the average caller may have access to several parcels of property spread over a 50 square mile area. Each of those parcels may be anywhere from a few acres to 4 or 5 hundred acres. Considering the fact that some or all of the surrounding land may also have the same pressure from others and you have tremendous pressure on your coyotes. Suffice it to say that your coyotes learn to be cautious much quicker in life than many of ours.
I choose to move on to the next stand after 10 to 12 minutes because I believe that in our country you will get 80% of the coyotes in the first 8 to 10 minutes. I would prefer to go get an 80% ‘er rather than sit another 10 minutes to have a chance at a 20%’er. You probably should stay at least 30 to 45 minutes.
Hodgen, your comment about them “not even turn heads” indicates to me they have heard that tune before and know what will happen to them if they do respond. I have that same reaction occasionally and it is very frustrating. Let’s go back to your comment about social or territorial responses. Using very realistic sounding combinations of sound is becoming increasingly critical in areas that have high calling pressure. The use of standard food sounds only, is working less and less for people in those areas.
It is hard for me to believe that there is some evolution that has occurred that causes coyotes to have a genetic predisposition to ignoring distress sounds and only traveling in straight lines to a set of predetermined points in their area. If you happen to not be at one of those points, your calling attempts will be futile. I say that half in jest not to ridicule your arguments because they are good, but to stir your debate juices. I am learning from what you have to say so keep it up.
I have wondered at times if that is true, does that mean that they would not respond to the real thing if they heard it. Could we someday see a phenomenon where coyotes only eat what they stumble across or get out of a garbage can?
222, hit on a critical factor….”if they are in the area”. In Pa, your coyotes travel a number of miles in their home range. If you only have access to a few hundred acres you simply have to be lucky enough to catch them passing through when you happen to be calling within hearing.
222, what you say about night hunting in close quarters is very true. Split second opportunity is very tough to do. You should have to call in some areas of the south Texas brush country, where all the brush is so thick the road or trail you stand on is the only open ground. Those eyes appear and disappear in seconds. I can be standing on the top of my truck with a view of 500yards any direction and not see eyes until they are 15 feet from the truck. I know what you are talking about. I simply have to hope one will step out into the road for that few seconds.
Consider this, the fact that you only get a few seconds to shoot at eyes within shot gun range means to me that coyotes must be callable in Pa…just under very difficult conditions brought on by terrain….not coyote intelligence.
You have pointed out the fact that Pa callers are mainly night hunters. Why is that? Is it because of their belief that coyotes are nocturnal and travel only at night? I have heard many Pa deer hunters talk about how many coyotes they have seen from their deer stands. So why not call for them in the daytime? Down here we have called 23 in one day where the temperatures reached 103 degrees. Coyotes are opportunists; they do not turn down a meal just because the sun is shining. If a coyote hears another coyote killing a rabbit do they choose to wait until night to defend their territory? Just food for thought.
Sorry Skunny…I am not rock star.
These are not groupies just some friends. Remember if you can not say anything nice, don’t say anything at all….or at least so my mother thought.
Bearmaniac, all we have in the works right now is a calf distress.
Skinner 2 touched on another important variable…decoys. That is another weapon that should be added to your arsenal. It many times can cause them to commit to an error. That combined with:
Good scouting
Good site selection
Good sounds
Good camo
Coyotes in the area
The stars lined up correct
Your fingers crossed
A buddy at your back
A soft seat to sit in
No farting
Should combine for…..2 to 5 coyotes per year???????? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 13, 2005, 04:59 AM:
Well let's take it a bit deeper Gerald.
I think it's mainly the newer coyote hunters that restrict themselves to night hunting. Myself, I would have to say I take the majority of critters during daylight hours. Most of the serious coyote hunters make day stands too.
I agree our coyote numbers per square mile may not be the same as in Texas. But one of the tactics I brought back from CA is "run and gun". A typical weekend of calling will start friday evening here near Allentown, and end up near Coudersport in Potter County. You make numerous stands along the way. You usually end up there Saturday afternoon, grab a few hours of sleep, then hunt a different route back home. So you're covering about 450-500 miles round trip and doing around 30+ stands total. The terrain varies from farmland to mountains. Although I have backed off such a radical approach here. It's been this tactic, combined with the pied piper act mixing social and distress calling that would result in 5 - 8 responses a winter. (accidental encounters not included).
That's why earlier in this thread I told the guy to save his gas money and head west. I was down in AZ about 3 weeks ago and had 12 coyotes show up in about 8 stands.
The coyotes I spoke of that have the defined travel routes are right here near the Allentown airport. They have a travel pattern a few of the local boys have pretty well figured out. None of us has had any success calling at them. The only ones killed have been by cutting off their travel routes, waiting for them at a farm that butchers pigs at a scrap pile, or setting steel along their route.
I don't know what else to tell you Gerald, other than it's a tick easier to call coyotes in the more remote areas than urban around here. And both areas hold coyotes. But no matter which your after, they are one tough critter to call here. This is why I keep telling you the info the guys need is the "next" level and not coyote 101.
Posted by 222 (Member # 567) on February 13, 2005, 05:40 AM:
quote:
222, hit on a critical factor….”if they are in the area”. In Pa, your coyotes travel a number of miles in their home range. If you only have access to a few hundred acres you simply have to be lucky enough to catch them passing through when you happen to be calling within hearing.
That is very true. I have acess to arround 300 acres (arround my house) and am able to pattern the coyote. On average, they are in this area every 3-4 days. However, their patterns change. Lately (past few months), they are only comming through every week or so. The only factor I can see that has changed this is food. Pa is going through a drastic deer herd reduction which IMOP might be having a trickle down effect causing predators to change. Now I am not saying that the coyote sole source of food is deer either, but I am sure the reduction has had some impact.
quote:
Consider this, the fact that you only get a few seconds to shoot at eyes within shot gun range means to me that coyotes must be callable in Pa…just under very difficult conditions brought on by terrain….not coyote intelligence.
Let me share a recent experience that has become the "norm" for me. Last fri. night, my wife came in from taking the dog out and informed me the coyote were out. I decided to go out and try to call them. I took a stand overlooking a field and started with a howel. To make a long story short, we went back and forth for about 1 hour. Also in that time frame I mixed a few distress and puppy wines. Then all of the sudden I get a different howel followed by kee-kee.This came from the opposite direction. After another half hour of no responce, I called it quits. So can I say I called them in, yes. However, I was not sucessful because they refused to cross that line and come in closer. Both set of coyotes stayed about 150 yrds into the woods. Now one will say that I should of set up differently but like I said, this has become the norm for me and the same scenero has taken place over varied terrain.
quote:
You have pointed out the fact that Pa callers are mainly night hunters. Why is that? Is it because of their belief that coyotes are nocturnal and travel only at night? I have heard many Pa deer hunters talk about how many coyotes they have seen from their deer stands. So why not call for them in the daytime?
I can only answer this based on my own experience but I have found that night hunting is more productive. I have yet to have a coyote respond to my calling during daylight.
Hodgen stated the facts on the deer hunters. When you get close to 1 million deer hunters marching arround the woods, they are going to push the coyote out. A Pa deer hunter will drop a coyote in a hartbeat. To some, a coyote is a bigger trophy than a whitetail. Also, none of these deer hunters are calling. Their success is based on oppertunity.
Another factor is that this sport is creating a lot of popularity among sportsman, mainly due to the contests that have spured up in the last few years. More and more sportsman are comming out to try to get a yote for that top cash prize. I belive along with that , a smarter coyote is the result. Like stated, they are able to tell the fox-pro from the loudmouth etc.
GS, please do not be offended by my posting style of quoting you. I just find it easier to respond directly. It is not ment to pick at you like some do on boards.
I must say, this thread is one of the better ones I have seen in a long time.
[ February 13, 2005, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: 222 ]
Posted by 222 (Member # 567) on February 13, 2005, 06:23 AM:
One note I forgot to add:
More and more turkey hunters are telling me thay are seeing coyote respond to their turkey calls. A few have stated that the coyote has even gone so far to attack the decoy. Mabey we should start thinking like turkey hunters.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 13, 2005, 07:03 AM:
Gobble Gobble Gobble.......
Except we run into that goofy "food source decoy" regulation 222. But that is slated to change sometime in the near future.
And these guys are dealing with spring time coyotes, so fur isn't good, and the coyotes are on extra duty feeding a litter. If ya wanna have some real fun, use a goose call near a river around June when the gosslings are moving about.
But that brings up another quirk.
Considering you have thousands of hunters in the field. All are in full cammo and whatnot. Everyone of them are using a call of some sort. The coyote is at its most vulnerable because it's feeding a litter. But yet it's still only isolated cases of turkey hunters reporting coyote responses. Although they are exciting for them when they do happen. I still wouldn't classify it as productive.
Maybe I am just spoiled because of my travels, and 5 responses a year with intense calling is all PA has to offer. But I can't get past the fact that "sign" tells me there are ample supply of coyotes, and trappers and houndsmen can pull 30 some coyotes out of a much smaller area than callers do. I know their tactics are more productive by nature, but the bottom line is the coyotes are there. And if they are there, we should have better success calling them.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 13, 2005, 07:04 AM:
222,
You finally hit the nail on the head. I deal with alot of eastern hunters every year in the outfitting business. I get almost the same replys out of them consistantly when talking about turkeys and coyotes. They all claim that the eastern turkey is the wileyest critter in the woods. They say that they are way smarter and harder to hunt than coyotes. I say B.S., but most of them aren't coyote hunters, so of course the arguement ensues. My point being that if the average eastern coyote hunter put as much time and effort into their coyote hunting as they do their turkey hunting, they would be far more successful. If they spent the same amount of time learning to call, the same amount of money on equipment, the same amount of time locating and scouting, etc. they would be far more successful coyote hunters. The other thing that I have noticed with these guys is the difference if I happen to take them coyote or turkey hunting. If you are turkey hunting, they hunker down and hide, and actually sit still, because they think the turkey is so smart and can see so well. Take the same guy coyote hunting and he sits like a five year old with too much Pepsi and a case of poison ivy. They look for the highest place to sit, so they can see them coming! You'd swear it wasn't the same person!
[ February 13, 2005, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 13, 2005, 07:18 AM:
Cal,
I don't know if I would classify a turkey in PA as intellegent or wiley. Pretty much considered them kind of stupid to be honest. I used to shoot them in the fall with my bow, out of boredom, when the seasons overlapped with archery. I wrecked quite a few arrows and broadheads on them.
I am sure there are alot of eastern coyote hunters who screw up setting stands, not sitting still and lacking equipment. But then on the other hand, there are just as many setting good stands, hunkering down, and have the best of everything.
If it was something as simple as that, I would think there would be at least one group of callers consistantly taking coyotes. Seems everyone is sucking wind.
Posted by 222 (Member # 567) on February 13, 2005, 07:52 AM:
quote:
Except we run into that goofy "food source decoy" regulation 222. But that is slated to change sometime in the near future.
Last I hear that was dead in the house. I bet those turkey hunters do not know that if they do bag a yote while hunting with a decoy, they are in violation.
quote:
They all claim that the eastern turkey is the wileyest critter in the woods. They say that they are way smarter and harder to hunt than coyotes. I say B.S.,
I agree 500%! You are correct, most are not predator hunters.
quote:
My point being that if the average eastern coyote hunter put as much time and effort into their coyote hunting as they do their turkey hunting, they would be far more successful. If they spent the same amount of time learning to call, the same amount of money on equipment, the same amount of time locating and scouting, etc. they would be far more successful coyote hunters.
I think you hit the nail on that one! When I started out in this sport, I would find and call an area I thought was good. Typically, it would be a ridgeline that I could see out 200yrds. I would think to myself this is a great spot for coyote. I would drive arround and look for this type of area. What I was not doing was seeing if the coyote were there. It wasn't till I spent a lot of wasted time did I realize I was going about it in the wrong way. I am sure that there are a lot of others who think along the lines that I did. Once I changed my thinking, I started to see responce to my efforts. I still should spend more time but due to family and work, I am limited.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 13, 2005, 08:02 AM:
Cal's observation mirrors my own. This past year I videoed hunts with Tom Bechdal in Pa. and Brent Saxton in Ohio. Both are competition turkey hunter/callers and both are successful coyote callers. Both utilize their respective turkey hunting disciplines on the coyote stand. They both literally disappear, they both remain absolutely still even when calling and both pay attention to the wind when setting up. Both KNOW coyotes are present, rather than hope, and both call during the day. Their respective calling techniques are identical including the sounds they offer the coyotes and both reputably call more coyotes than most in their areas.
Having said that it is a plain fact that some pressured, experienced coyotes are uncallable. They even cease long range inter-pack vocalizations. The caller that does not quit, that continues to experiment with different techniques and sounds in a positive and optimistic methodology, will quite probably become very good at this.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 13, 2005, 08:40 AM:
quote:
I decided to go out and try to call them. I took a stand overlooking a field and started with a howel. To make a long story short, we went back and forth for about 1 hour.
Does anyone have any real experience relating to two real coyotes working on each other for an hour? I suspect that would be a very unnatural occurence and that a real coyote would suspect something was up. I wonder why they don't cross the line.
Dennis
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 13, 2005, 09:13 AM:
Rich,
Is this hunt video with Tom Bechdal available for sale? I'd enjoy seeing it immensly. Years back some real impressive numbers were posted concerning this guy and coyotes he killed in PA. I bumped into him on a message board somewhere, and made the offer to flip the bill for expenses to just tag along for a 3 day hunt to observe. He never responded to my post and disappeared.
He himself is the one guy I would like to see hunt the Mosquito Creek contest. When asked about such an endeavor, if I remember right, was "it wouldn't be fair for a pro to compete in such an event".
When it comes to this guy. If he is killing the numbers like I heard. I am going to need to see results with my own two eyes.
[ February 13, 2005, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2005, 10:16 AM:
Hodgen, I don't know this fella, Tom Bechdal, but from what Rich has told me, he seems to know what he is doing, but their hunt wasn't very productive.
My comment, however, involves the things a person says, and what another chooses to believe. I could say things that the average easterner could not comprehend, as to successful coyote hunting. I can't force a listener to believe what I say, and I don't care if he believes. In some cases, it is a waste of time, trying to convince some people, so you just have to listen and make a judgement and probably retain some doubt? I wouldn't go on a crusade to convince everyone of my claims; again, a waste of time.
So, you have Mr. Bechdal. He might spend every weekend making believers out of non believers, and the odds are that some will go away unconvinced, successful or not. It's a no win situation. I imagine skinner 2 feels the same way after telling folks about his success. Sometimes you wish you had not said anything, right?
Another thing about Pennsylvania and eastern situation, in general. The mention was that night hunting appears to be more successful, even if it only affords sightings, and not dead coyotes.
Well, if you have houndsmen, and deer hunters and trappers, and shooting every road crosser you see....AND these guys are harassing the animals every night, dusk to dawn, and doing it in the most unproductive manor, namely: "spotlighting" then you will see coyotes, and you probably won't kill too many of them.
This is a program guaranteed to give every coyote a University education, with the ability to distinguish Johnny Stewart sounds from Foxpro.
Is it any wonder that these guys are crying the blues? It is a scenario for massive failure, blaming everything but missing the point, completely.
Coyote hunting is actually stillborn in a place where they have a million hunters, all dressed up with no place to go!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 13, 2005, 11:10 AM:
Hey Leonard,
I am more than willing to listen to what anyone has to say, and try and extract what is useful without ridicule. I'll also give anyone the benifit of the doubt and the chance to prove himself if he feels the urge. Lord knows I traveled coast to coast to hunt with different people in pursuit of learning about coyotes both east and west.
Some trips have been productive, others have not. But I don't base my judgement on results of a hunt. I base my judgement on my ability to read people when I meet them, and what the ground and surroundings tell me when I am there.
I've heard some big claims attached to that name concerning coyote kills in PA. But for me to accept value in those claims it going to have to be proven to me because my surroundings don't show me it. But I am not arrogent to call such claims bullshit before a chance is given to prove them.
One other point I would like to make concerning the pressure on coyotes. Yes we have a lot of hunters in Pa. But you only have the onslaught of pressure about one week of the rifled deer season, a few days of bear, and a fair amount when we have this one major coyote contest.
PA distributes roughly about 23,000 fur-taker tags a year. The majority of these sold are trappers and houndsmen. And a fur-taker tag is required for night hunting coyote during any of the big game seasons. Some sort of big game season is running from Oct through January. The coyotes are not under the intense pressure nightly as it sounds, except maybe in a few popular locations by locals.
[ February 13, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Hodgen ]
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 13, 2005, 12:17 PM:
Like Hodgen, I am not buying the deer hunting pressure as any reason whatsoever for lack of coyote calling success. We have as many and probably more deer hunters in Michigan. We also have longer seasons.
If that's the reason for lack of calling success then I would rarely see or kill a coyote.
Skinner 2 and I met up this morning for a hunt, We called four locations. One setup each. On the first setup, I howled, Skinner 2 shot and one coyote died. The next three stands were unproductive. That's right around our average. If the one in five stands average holds true, then we can expect to get one on second setup next weekend. Might be the first or we may go without one.
Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on February 13, 2005, 03:29 PM:
Larry Darby, welcome to the website. I live in southern Mo. I went for a year and a half before I called in a coyote and actually killed it. I told my buddy who was with me on that hunt that there lay a $500.00 coyote. He asked how that could be? Itold him that with all the calls, videos, camo, gas etc. it had to be about that much. I shot a pair four weeks ago today, and have been out calling every weekend since, with no call-ins or shots fired. Do not give up. Sometimes calling close to a dead cow, deer etc. will get results if they are located in the right spot. I can hardly wait until late May, early June to see if puppy distress will work here. Good luck, and try to take gerald up on his offer. Adios.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 13, 2005, 03:30 PM:
Hodgen, I'm afraid I can't help you at this time.
I too had heard the rumors and hype surrounding Mr. Bechdal, which is why I proposed the video hunt with him. He readily and happily accepted. I spent three days with him, calling in gale force winds and rain, trees sometimes bent at 90 degrees. We saw no coyotes. He did show me his scrapbook photos and he spoke freely in front of his significant other and her sons. They showed no indication that he told anything other than the truth. I can generally tell when someone is "embellishing". I had no sense of that when listening to Tom. Having hunted with him I have no doubt that he can call coyotes consistantly. However, numbers just don't quite add up and a question mark remains. We have agreed to another hunt next year, hopefully under ideal conditions for the camera.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 13, 2005, 03:43 PM:
Baldknobber, I lived in the Branson area and can assure you that puppy distress works well in that area, ALL YEAR LONG. Coyotes do not react or respond to stimuli, in this case calls, in a logical or thoughtful manner. No coyote, upon hearing a puppy distress in January, will consult a calendar and think to himself that he should not be hearing this sound until June. They respond to the calls instinctually, without conscious thought. That said, have you given any thought to how you are going to feel instinctually when you kill a wet bitch in June and realize that a den full of puppies are quite probably going to die slowly and very unpleasantly because of what you have done?
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 13, 2005, 04:22 PM:
Rich,
It's a shame the weather wasn't in your favor. We had high hopes when Byron South came up for a PPHA picnic and to hunt. But he walked smack into Hurricane Ivan, and even if they would have called a coyote, it most likely would have been wearing a life jacket. But we all managed a good time at the picnic.
It's tough to tell with the weather you guys hit, but did you happen to see that much sign, that such a concentration of coyotes is possible?
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 13, 2005, 05:33 PM:
Hodgen, that is the first I have heard of anyone doing that style of hunting in Pa. All I can say in my sassiest voice is “you go man”. You earned a lot of respect with me in that post. I suspect that the “next level” might be simply taking all of the basics to their extreme limits. It may just be over my head if it takes more than that. Why don’t some of the wildlife service guys chime in on this one? If anybody out there would have taken anything to the next level it would be one of those 30 year guys.
Back in the 80’s I called occasionally with a guy on the outskirts of Waco that would tell me that the coyotes would come by every morning at the same time. You could set your watch to it he would joke. I believe that most coyotes do have a territory that they develop a routine in. We could not call those coyotes very well at all. Hmmnn maybe there is something……
222, I take no offense at all to that style of response you use. I like it because it helps keep things in context better. I just do not know how to do it.
Ditto on your Turkey comments……
Cal, you really hit on a great point.
Now to the Tom Bechdal issue. A lot of really valid points were and have been made on him. Rich, I had the same feeling about Tom that you got when you were with him. I did not hunt with him but spent significant time talking “shop” with him and came away from that with a very positive feeling about him.
When my sales manager first approached me about taking him on as a Seminar\Pro staffer he related that he had first contact with Tom at a NWTF show. We checked him out with his references and everyone seemed to be of like mind on Tom. He was very experienced and got very good marks for his seminar abilities. He did a really good job for us and got rave reviews from our Dealers. Most wanted him again the next year.
I would hear from customers that they would hook up with Tom for an afternoon hunt. They would relate that their results were spotty but that they did see or take one. Rich I am like you in that I would also say that it is awful risky to do that if you are a fake. You get found out real fast. Eventually a number of people with concern about his numbers, which I will admit even made me stop and raise my brow, just could not stop themselves from trying to discount and discredit him.
Based on my own experience with him I pitched him to HS and they brought him on board for a while but eventually stopped using him. I have no reason to believe that it was anything to do with a deficiency of his. We both had a hell of a time working with a person in charge of the pro staffers who has since been asked to leave the company. She was so frustrating to me that I was driven to the point of telling her that she would not last 30 days if I was running the company. It takes a lot to push me to that point and what I did was out of character for me. It was very bad experience for him and me alike.
I wondered at times if part of the problem was that people just could not picture him being a “Pro Staffer” or “hunter” or “coyote killer” simply because of the way he looked or talked. He did not have the greatest stage presence, commanding voice or swagger that people have grown accustomed to with many in a position like that in our industry. I liked Tom…I will leave it at that.
Hey guys this has been one hell of an enjoyable thread. Thanks for the info and I hope I can meet all of you some day around a campfire and we can talk about the one that got away….and the ten that didn’t.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 13, 2005, 05:47 PM:
So who is the Eastern Hunter who practices Voodoo and hexed my hunt today?
I made 12-13 stands, and saw one coyote. Who came in backdoor and down wind. He spooked at 200 yards and I never could shoot because the only house around, was a half a mile behind him.
By the Western standards I keep reading about, I should have called in at least 30 coyotes by the time I made that many stands.
Many of these stands were in proven "Honey Holes" Nistetter took an Eastern hunter to the same area a few weeks ago and kicked butt. Admittedly, he's the best hand caller I've ever heard, but shouldn't I have at least seen a few?
Or maybe the Red god's were mad at me for carrying my new .243 rifle? Surely it can't be that somedays, no matter what you do, the coyotes just won't respond?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2005, 06:04 PM:
Tim, that's all you have to say? Seems like you spent some time on the wrong side of the Mississippi? No sage advice?
All joking aside, I'd like to hear what you think about the eastern coyote.
Good hunting. LB
edit: the Red Gods?
[ February 13, 2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 13, 2005, 06:13 PM:
Tim, sometimes the mojo just goes bad. I have to recall Murray Burnham's comment about it.
Quote
" Sometimes this crap don't work."
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 13, 2005, 06:42 PM:
I attended a seminar that Tom Bechdel did here in Michigan several years ago. It was put on by a local sporting goods dealer. He was representing Johhny Stewart at the time. I think he represented the company very well Gerald.
He seemed very knowledgable and answered all the questions posed to him in a polite and usually in depth answer. Some of the question were very basic, the kind that get asked over and over. Some were more in depth. He handled them all well.
His kill numbers have been questioned here by others I know who attended that seminar. If the numbers are true, the man hunts a LOT. I won't pass any judgement on those numbers. I think if someone can put in enough time they can acheive that success level. Even here in the east where we can't call them in.
The video Rich is working on is how I started contact with Rich Higgins. Tom Bechdel's name was brought up on a thread on another board. No one knew how to get a hold of him or much about him. Having attended that seminar, I remembered a bit about him and tracked down some info.
Edited so it would make sense! ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
[ February 13, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Yellerdog ]
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 13, 2005, 07:25 PM:
Thanks for your feedback Yellerdog. I gave Tom the opportunity to address this issue with his numbers and part of his explaination to me was that very point. He spent a great deal of the time scouting and calling. He evidently had access to quite a number of places to hunt. His personal situation was that he was not employable due to a bad back and he could only rely on occassional light handy man type of work outside of his seminar\prostaff income and his wife's income. The seminar work was seasonal and he had plenty of time to hunt. It is my recollection that he may have hunted in addition to Pa, some of eastern Ohio and northern West Virginia also. At least that is my memory.
[ February 13, 2005, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 13, 2005, 08:08 PM:
Gerald, your memory serves you just fine. That is exactly as Tom related his circumstance to me. Disabled in an accident, essentially unemployable, he hunts as much as seven days a week. He is well known in Cambridge Springs as the coyote man. During my three days with him he was approached in a restaurant and even once at a red light by locals that wanted him to rid them of their coyote problem.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 13, 2005, 09:24 PM:
I don't know anything about the guy you guys are talking about, but alot is gained from Geralds last post. And it has to do with success anywhere. The guy considers himself a coyote hunter and thats what he does. Thats the way I look at it. I'm not a turkey hunter, a deer hunter, an elk hunter, a antelope hunter, a lion hunter, I'm a coyote hunter. Sometimes I hunt those other things and I do OK, but I am a coyote hunter. That is what I'm geared towards. That is where the vast majority of my time and effort go. I do some other things so I can afford to coyote hunt more. I'm not a welder, or a carpenter, or a fence builder, or a videographer, but I do some of those things on the side so I can be a coyote hunter. I think most guys and especially those away from this particular board are something else. They are deer hunters that occasionally hunt coyotes, or they are turkey hunters that ocasionally hunt coyotes or whatever. But I am a coyote hunter that ocasionally hunts something else. I know that there are several more with the same attitude around here, and I think that has alot to do with coyote hunting success, east or west. And maybe thats why this guy kills alot of eastern coyotes? I don't really know, but thats my guess.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2005, 03:32 AM:
Thank you, Cal. You have succeeded in defining my World. Not a bad place to be, is it?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 14, 2005, 03:56 AM:
What worked best for me, when I lived back in Indiana, is pretty close to what seems to be working for Yellerdog and Skinner2.
I'd make four stands per weekend. Two on Saturday and two on Sunday. I'd be on stand and calling just as soon as it was daylight enough to clearly see out to 100 yards. I'd call for 30 minutes, then go to my second stand. Sunday morning I'd do it again.
I'd shoot one coyote per weekend. Which gave me a 25% success rate, something I don't always get here in Arizona. In fact there have been many times I quietly considered that coyote densities are higher in the East. The difference is in how much land we hunt.
Someone made a post earlier about having 300 acres to hunt. To me, that's about enough land to make one stand every two to four weeks. There in Indiana, I would have permission to hunt and trap on over 10,000 acres each winter. 5,000-7,000 of those acres, I would be the only one allowed to hunt and trap on.
I think Cal also hit the nail on the head. Most "Coyote hunters", aren't coyote hunters. They are hunters who try to call coyotes when their "game of choice" isn't available to be hunted.
I almost fall into that description myself. As much as I love to call coyotes, it isn't my first love. If I had my choice, I'd spend all day trapping them. Calling them is just something I do when trapping season is closed, or during the early parts of the morning, before it is time to run my traps.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 14, 2005, 04:42 AM:
Hey Rich, can you send me any contact info you may have for Tom. I want to call him and see if maybe he and I can spend some time together at my upcoming seminar. Thanks for anything you can do for me.
[ February 14, 2005, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 14, 2005, 05:54 AM:
Gerald, I sent the info to your E-mail.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 14, 2005, 06:01 AM:
I understand you, Cal. I have not hunted big game in several years. The entire time I am on a deer stand I am thinking about coyotes and wishing I were calling, so there is no sense bothering. My wife says I am seriously obsessed with coyotes. I say I am happily obsessed. There is a difference.
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 14, 2005, 07:16 AM:
I live in an interesting place. Here in western Minnesota the terrain and coyote behavior is eastern in nature. If I drive 3 hours west of my home, I get into the wide open spaces of North Dakota and the coyotes come easier.
But, I remain successful here in Minnesota too.
I've found I have to do some things differently.
First off, there is a lot of pressure here in Minnesota. To offset that, I get a LOT of permission. I contact about 75 farmers each year to get permission. From those 75 farmers, I have access to about 150 to 175 places to call to. Too many people I talk to get permission for one or two farms and then wonder why they can't call in coyotes. Chances are good, those places don't hold any coyotes. The other thing about these farmers is that they tend to be very loyal. Most of them will not let others call on their property. So, I lock up a lot of choice land.
The second thing I do is to get away from the main roads but not so far back in that it spooks coyotes that might be bedded downin the deep cover. The coyotes around my place are definately road shy. I drive 25 miles to work one way. On the way to work at sun up and on the way home at sundown. I've seen ZERO foxes or coyotes in the past three months from the road.
Every stand is set up with as much care as possible. We don't wander in and plop down and start screaming. We evaluate the wind speed and direction, sun, cover to hide in or near and what sorts of cover are available for the coyote to approach the call.
We assess the surrounding cover and attempt to figure out where it's likely the coyote will be before we start calling. Then we try to see what cover the coyote will use to get to us so we know where to put the down-wind shooter.
We attempt to use "funnels" of cover knowing that the coyotes don't like to come out into the open in the daytime. The whole process works very well most of the time. Of course there's always the varmint that sneaks in behind us, winds us and leaves making us feel foolish....
Then on other days, I drive those 3 hours west and call to anything that looks like it might hold a coyote or two and have better luck.
Or, I get a wild bug and travel to Texas and generally kill a pile of coyotes.
There are differences. Typically it's simply pressure and coyote numbers that make such a difference for me.
Randy
Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 14, 2005, 07:56 AM:
Randy, you described our hunts exactly. We follow the same proceedures for our set ups.
Skinner 2
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 14, 2005, 09:19 AM:
After being gone all weekend, I set down and read this thread from the start.
I will haft to agree with just about all that has been said. Randy, skinner2 and Yellerdog hit the nail on the head.
Ohio or at least my area get alot I mean alot of calling and trapping pressure. I haft to tweak my tecks to allow for this. I call coyotes in the open in areas, but some areas they just wont show there self, I adjusted my techs to cover these coyotes.
One of the main things here in my area is finding the coyotes, you haft to find them to be able to call them, then you cant just run in and set down and call. You haft to plan everything and do your home work. Pick your stand sights well. Alot of the new callers just cold call here. Its tough! We are not run over by coyotes, I mean there is a good number of them here but, not all areas hold them and they have big home ranges. The populations of coyotes is growing, but they are still in pockets here.
Alot of the areas I hunt here are wooded, not many field. Lots of thickets and hardwoods. It takes a little diffrent set up to hunt them in the woods. And alot of scouting. I call alot of coyotes I dont even get a shot at.
In the farm lands and river bottoms, I call the edges, What I mean is I dont set up in the open, I work them down the edges to me. I try not to set up were they haft to cross the open, or the open will be my down wind side.
I take care in picking my stands. I make sure there are coyotes in the area im calling. That to me is the most important thing that an eastern caller can do. I dont worry about making 50 stands a day, I make tought out planed stands. When I leave the house to go calling I have my day planed from first stand to last stand and what time frame I want to make them.
Brent
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 14, 2005, 11:13 AM:
Thanks again Gerald for taking the time to respond.
I don't know if I am in the East or West?
Places here range from several thousand acres to small lots. Most of the stuff we get access to are around 160 acres and less, not all are good spots to call, but some adjoin places that you can handle a coyote in.
Some are thick woods that we normally just set up for cats in. When you can't see very far, advantage goes to the nose.
If I am hunting coyotes and there is a wind, I don't sit places that I can't maintain my downwind side. Most coyotes if pressured hard will go to the downwind side, so they can use their nose. If I can't see past 50 yds downwind, or prevent them from obtaining that advantage I probably won't sit the stand. Why would that coyote stick his head out at 50yds, when he can sit and smell safely under cover at 55yds. Feeling they will be out of view when they wind me , thus no coyote? or was it just a bad place to call for coyotes.
I try not to go and just practice blowing my call and holding class, however limited hunting access finds me sitting these hopeless spots for handling coyote, looking for cats or fox. Sometimes the "short bus" brings a yote, to which I am very thankful, and very suprised;otherwise, I wait for the cat, or sit a stand I can handle a coyote.
later pup
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 14, 2005, 12:00 PM:
Randy and KeeKee both pay greater attention to the fundamentals of calling. They make well thought out choices and it pays off.
I feel frustrated for Hodgens sake. I appreciate his pushing for the next level of tactics or philosophy of calling because that makes me think about what we do in a much more serious way.
I have stated many times that many of the users of what we have sold over the years are far more productive callers than I am due to the differences in how we approach the activity.
I personally am not willing to go to the lengths that some are willing to do to get a coyote. I want to enjoy my time in the field and that drives my decision making. I may choose to not go out in 25 mph wind and 10 below like Randy because for me that is an exercise in survival rather than a hunt.
My take on much of what I have read in this thread is that the successful people are going to much greater length to conquer the basic variables that are present at every coyote stand. Those who are not willing to do what it takes to be successful in the east or west are simply not going to be successful.
How is this for a sumation of the challenge facing most Easterners. To be consistently successful you must have access to enough land, scout it extremely well, make good choices and do it a bunch. If any of those factors are taken out of the equation then you will probably always be wanting.
The average Easterner simply can not have all of those factors working for him sometimes due to factors beyond his control. There is not enough land to go around for the high number of hunters, and the coyote (for the most part) are not just call shy, they are paranoid at all of the bullets wizzing by and squeaks and sqwuaks coming from behind every bush.
Do too many Easterners have unrealistic expectations? It seems to me that the ones that do not and are willing to go to the extreme are the ones who are successful. The rest are simply frustrated. Hey wait a minute....isn't that what I have always maintained......
Kidding aside, does that make sense or just make for more frustration?
[ February 14, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 14, 2005, 12:16 PM:
If you guys think calling and shooting coyotes is hard, you ought to try to film them getting whacked!!!!!
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 14, 2005, 12:34 PM:
You know Jay, I was gonna bring that out. Point being if you think it is tough shooting them try getting it all on film, it will really change the learning curve. We always haul the camera, so we don't sit many stands where there is not a possibility of getting good footage.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 14, 2005, 12:43 PM:
Gerald,
I appreciate all your imput. Rest assured I will re-look and take the basics to the extreme as some have suggested. I am fairly cirtain myself and some others here in PA are already at that point, but it doesn't hurt to step back and re-look at things.
As I said before. Maybe my expectations are just too damn high, and an average of 5 or 6 called in a winter is all my area has to give. But the "sign" tells me there is more. And the ground has never lied to me before.
But same as you, it has become work and not relaxation to chase them here. Traveling west has sure spoiled me. I met some interesting people in my travels, and made some good hunting buddies along the way. And seeing multiple coyotes comming to a call doesn't hurt either.
But somehow I'll still manage to keep plugging along here in PA too.
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 14, 2005, 01:17 PM:
I don't see it as work or something that isn't relaxing. I get a kick out of every part of it from talking to the farmers to figuring out how to stay warm when it's -25 degrees.
But, I HATE getting skunked so my partner and I have worked very hard to get this figured out. We analyze every successful and unsuccessful stand. We always try to put all the pieces together to figure out why something worked or why it didn't.
Sometimes we just shake our heads and agree that we suck at this predator calling thing.
Other times we just know we have all the answers.
But, it stays fun no matter what mode we are in.
Randy
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 14, 2005, 02:16 PM:
I make the comment all the time that one of the things that makes predator calling so enjoyable is that no two stands are ever exactly the same. There is a dynamic nature to this way of hunting that makes it such a great way to enjoy the outdoors.
Many times I get more enjoyment on a stand seeing something I have never seen before than killing the coyote. It is the vehicle to more input than most other ways of hunting can bring to the table.
If a person will go back and read all of the posts with substance on this thread, I honestly think there is a lot to learn here from what a number of very experienced callers have had to say. This has been one of the most enjoyable board participations I have ever had. I learned a some things and I hope others have also benefitted. Thanks gentlemen.....and thanks Leonard, for a great place to talk.
Posted by 222 (Member # 567) on February 14, 2005, 02:35 PM:
quote:
Someone made a post earlier about having 300 acres to hunt. To me, that's about enough land to make one stand every two to four weeks.
Actually, the 300 acres, in my back yard enables me to scout the area on a regular basis to determine some pattern. I may have called this area 6 times since last october when the furtaker season opened.
I have prob. 100k + acres of public land, available, not counting the numerous private farms, available to me for calling. All within a 1 hr ride of my residence.
quote:
How is this for a sumation of the challenge facing most Easterners. To be consistently successful you must have access to enough land, scout it extremely well, make good choices and do it a bunch. If any of those factors are taken out of the equation then you will probably always be wanting.
That would prob. be quite accurate.
Again as stated, this is prob. one of the better discussions, I have come across, on the east vrs. west dilemma. ( not sure if dilemma is proper but..) Great Info!!!
[ February 14, 2005, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: 222 ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 14, 2005, 03:14 PM:
What does Tom claim for numbers? I heard once that he clamed to kill 300 coyotes and fox a season. All called. Rich, how many dead coyotes did you see in his scrap book?
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 14, 2005, 03:24 PM:
If I recall correct, on Bob Davis' board the claim was almost 300 predators in a little over 31/2 years. There was mention that he had over 600 stand locations marked on maps in 4 or more eastern states?
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 14, 2005, 03:33 PM:
I dont let the hard work and all the Hrs I put into it take anything away from the sport. I enjoy calling predators, I like to shoot them but I love to call them! I find it very enjoyable to be out there and put in all the time. I always have fun! I spend alot of time out there by myself and that time in the field is just as great as the time I spend with a hunting partner. You haft to keep it fun and enjoyable!
Jay is right, When I started packing a camera and an extra person on every stand, then things changed. And I will be the first to say that my kills have been down because of it. And alot of the time the shot isnt even taken because there was a problem with the footage or the camera man cant see the predator or lots of diffrent things, and as pup said there are alot of stands that I know are great stands but we cant set the stand because of the camera. Some footage isnt any good because it just isnt long enough or something wasnt right with the camera. It adds a hole diffrent twist to things. And I will also be the first to say it has had me at my ropes end a couple times already. But I realy enjoy it. I hope someday when I finaly get this thing done to step back and take a look at it and be happy with the way it turned out. And be able to set back and enjoy it.
I get to hunt with alot of new callers every year, some of them are good callers from the start and some are not. Some seem to run elc callers all the time some run hand calls. One of the big mistakes I see every year in new callers is they do no scouting! Someone told me there were coyotes here or I seen them in deer season or I heard them in the spring turkey season. But not many of them have said I scouted this area and this is what I found and this is what I think they are going or staying.......
And some just jump right in head first and go nuts, and then when they dont call anything they quit. Not good!
I will say this, my trip out West this year was great! I seen alot of coyotes and made alot of stands. I learned alot about calling in the West and seen alot of diffrent techs on things, calling, stand set up, camo, even they way they aproched the stands were diffrent than what I was use to. It was alot diffrent than what the Eastern caller deals with everyday. Its something every eastern caller should do someday if they can!
Brent
Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 14, 2005, 03:49 PM:
Hogden,
That is where you went wrong. Never travel to a place to hunt something you can hunt close to home. For one you will always go to a better place, example how many western callers go for a week long coyote hunt to PA. NONE they are not stupid ! Hunting will always lack at home and you will always long to go back. You should have traveled west for ELK,or prarrie dogs, something you cannot hunt at home. This way you do not get spoiled from seeing the other side.
I have said this for years about area people going out west or Canada for whitetail. They do not compete with our local 1 1/2 you old trophy 4 points(total points counted both sides). OK I live at the Walleye Capital, Why would I fly into Canada to catch walleyes? Laketrout perhaps, better yet trophy brook trout.
Skinner 2
[ February 14, 2005, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Skinner 2 ]
Posted by RJF3 (Member # 572) on February 14, 2005, 04:52 PM:
Lots of good stuff here, thanks for sharing....
Russ
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 14, 2005, 04:52 PM:
Ya know skinner,
The beginning of this whole damn coyote thing was bizarre. I was an avid deer hunter hunting 4 states each year. I tore my rotator cuff one year and that finished my archery hunting with conventional bows. I got the permit for a crossbow and it was the day after X-mas in 1991 I think, I went to a farm next to the Allentown airport to hunt. The temps plummeted that day to below zero. I had no clue as to what would happen if I did shoot that x-bow in those temps. 150# pull ya know.
So I backed my truck into a barn, and got the rifle out and propped it against the wall and just sat in the truck to watch the world go by. The farm always had a ton of fox on it, so I was hoping to catch one crossing the open fields. Next thing I know I see this BIG ass fox crossing the field. It was going at a pretty good trot up the hill. I scoped it and sure as heck it was a coyote. I never saw one before in PA.
I let a shot fly and the thing did a spin but I caught it pretty far back. It got back up and was going about 50yds and would stop and lick at the wound then go again. I didn't want to fire again cuz the thing was cresting a hill and this is somewhat an urban area. I trailed it up and figured I would crack going across the top field in the flat. I got to the top of the hill, and there was a guy evidently goose hunting, and he had this coyote hanging off his back walking off. Well I was only about 200yds away and this guy never fired a shot. The coyote must have flopped over right in front of the guy. I hollered and the more I hollered the faster he ran.
I went back to my pops house and told him this story. My pop said "Damn it Larry, ya shot the farmers dog. We been hunting that area for 30 years and there ain't no coyotes around here". There are sometimes ya just don't argue with an old man...LOL.
Anyways, I went back to the same spot that evening. Just before dusk, here comes another coyote and he lays down in the furrows of stubble corn field. Well there was going to be no mistakes this time, I head shot him. You know where my first stop was then...POPS!!!
He looked in the back of the truck and his jaw dropped. "Well it ain't a dog, and it sure as hell ain't no fox" he said. "But ya better make sure it's a coyote before ya take it anywhere". Just then a neighbor walks over who was originally from Arizona. Looks in the back of the truck and says "where ya get the coyote?".
Pops looked at me as I looked at him, and neither of us had to say a word. I will NEVER forget that look as long as I live.
Since that time I pretty much gave up all hunting and started pursuing coyotes. I didn't know dick about coyote hunting so between articles and magazines I stumbled along with extremely limited success. Years later I got on the computer and found websites and message boards such as this. Got to talking with a few guys, got some invites to hunt, and since I travel for work alot and landed in the general area anyway I took up a few on their offers.
I got exposed to different areas and saw awesome scenery. Learned different calling techniques, tactics, and saw different types of equipment first hand. Killed a few coyotes along the way too. And best of all I forged some good freindships I hope will last a lifetime. And I hope to continue hunting with them on a regular basis.
If that is where I went wrong....well I am not sure I want to be right. I don't regret one minute of where my coyote hunting endeavor has taken me.
I usually carry a signature line that reads "You meet a better class of people in the dark". And I have been lucky enough to meet a bunch of them.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2005, 05:42 PM:
That's a great post, Hodgen! Really gives the reader a glimpse of where you're at, so to speak.
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, RJF3. Glad to have you on board.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 14, 2005, 06:17 PM:
Hodgen,
Well wrong OK jerking your chain there! Well comparing them just should not be done. It will never add up. The people met along the way is a plus and these boards are great. Going out west and calling in a years supply in a day will make you spoiled.
But I'm puzzled here on another topic, Tom Bechdal. Here is a man I never met. I spoke with people who have. Many people on this board met him and have nice things to say. Some state they have heard rumors.
It sounds like he has a good rep. where he lives. People stop him and beg him to kill trouble coyotes. This happens because of word of mouth from the land owners.
What land owner would recommend anybody to a friend or neighbor who cannot stand up to what they claim. I have heard of a year kill from 150 to 300 coyotes from him. Now was that his best year or every year I don't know.
Here is what I got from this thread.
Spokemen for at least two companies.
Disabled, has 365 days a year to hunt.
Hunts minimun of three states.
Puts on seminars.
Has many land options.
Must have a giant list of honey holes. that nobody else has access too(guess).
Nobody stated they ever caught him lying or cheating. Some have doubts thought, nothing concrete!
Again only from this thread, my guessing
365 day to hunt.
does nothing but rest and family things 60 days.
305 left.
50 seminars in say 50 days with travel. many have two per day.
255 days left.
50 bad weather days (When Higgins is visiting ).
205 days left to hunt,14 prime stands averaged per day
80% percent of those days he kills one coyote.
tally 164 dead.
To me that does not seem that outragious with that kind of time put in. Perhaps he does have a secret he does not let out if so would you? This is not that uncommon. I'm thinking of a locked thread about a secret that California wants to keep .
Perhaps that/he is the smoking gun people are looking for. With his name, access and time.. I will give him the benifit of doubt.
I read a post on PM one time where a western shooter posted his yearly tally for shots fired. Coyotes, crows, PDs, deer , elk, hogs,...That man fired more rounds in a year then I had fired my entire life. Why doubt him.
Not trying to get you wound up or anything, more like thinking outloud?
Skinner 2
[ February 14, 2005, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Skinner 2 ]
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on February 15, 2005, 07:20 AM:
I just returned from an extended 3 week hunting/filming/killing excursion and was trying to go over all my backed up work and emails when I came across this thread. Man, there is tons of good reading. I don't really know where to start as most of it has already been covered in great detail by the most experieced guys possible. What I can say is I get tons of emails from people all over the country East and West that have problems calling coyotes. I know of some guys that even hunt Texas for a couple of years with no success . I have a unique situation in that I live in far East Texas, but hunt all over the state. People ask me all the time why I travel so much out to West Texas to do a lot of my hunting. Simple aswer is that it makes better use of my time, the filming is better, and there are lots more coyotes. Here where I live in East Texas it is much like any where else in the Southeast or East for that matter and not very conducive for calling and filming. The coyotes here are very paranoid/spooky/wired tight to say the least. The human population is very thick with houses generally spaced no further than a 1/4 mile apart and many times lots closer. The landscape is criss-crossed with county roads, "farmed to market" roads, and state hyways. Most of the towns are only 5 to 15 miles apart and in some areas you it's hard to tell when you leave one town and enter another except by road signs. When MOST people see that I'm from Texas they automatically assume that I have coyotes behind every bush just waiting to run out and dye when I toot on a call. It ain't so, believe me. Texas like I have said many time before is a huge and very diverse state. There are place in Texas where the most experieced callers would doi good to kill 3-5 coyotes a year hunting every weekend through out a year. There are other place like a place I was on Saturday morning many miles from here we called in 10 coyotes in the first two stands (Had two PA boys with me. They had a hoot but both short shucked their bolt guns after ther first shot(both miss's ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
), jammed them and were out of buisiness untill the coyote safeley retreated a little wiser.) My point is. If you want to call coyotes you have to work what you got with realistic expectations. I know peple back East don't like hearing it but they are just coyotes and coyotes respond to calls period. All the time? No, not even in Texas. We hunted all day Sunday and called in only two and they were both after dark and we were in primo, prime habitat. When hunting anywhere and especially back East where your oppotrtunities are limited you have to get very serious, pay close attention to the details, be ready to shoot quickly and accuartely, are you simply won't kill to many coyotes. I have hunted extensively here in East Texas and have occationally hunted back East in a few states (Going that way quite a bit in the very near future as well). People tell me all the time "Yeah but YOU don't understand our coyoyes". I'm sure thats not the problem. Please don't take this as arrogance and those of you that know me can vouch that I'm not that way. Coyotes are coyotes, there are brand new ones born every year. Are they any smarter than the one born out west? Maybe, maybe not? I fimly belive it is the conditions they are raised in that makes them different. Some believe that their parent instill the shyness in them as well. I believe this also to a certain extent. The one thing I know for certain is that most of them will repond to a call. Problem is their conditioning after the deer hunters have had their way in the woods puts them on high alert and the terrain is such that they are able to detect your presense long before you get a visual. So, here lies the problem with most peoples frustration. It is human nature to want an easy answer, special call, new calling sequences, or magic fix. There or no easy aswers or magic fix so we just have to understand what weve got and work with it. When you are dealing with tough terrain, and fewer coyotes that have learned to avoid people you just have to learn to wrk with what you got. Pay strict attention to the details, avoid calling on stands where you don't have the conditions in your favor, and be prepared when the opportunity presents itself. This along with realistic expectaions are the only secrets to succces I have found. To many new callers underestimate the abilities of a coyote and assume all you have to do is read the directions on the package around the call hanging in the local spoting goods store and go to work stacking up coyotes. I wish coyotes were this naive .
Byron
[ February 17, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on February 15, 2005, 07:38 AM:
I wanted to add one more thing.
a guy calling out in more open terain with less human presence can get by calling in and killing a considerable amount of coyotes without adhearing closely to the basics. Their calls canvas a larger piece of realestate and generally hunt larger tracts. Coyotes can often be called and killed with somewhat laxidasical effort. That wont happen in the East very often. I think avid callers from the West and East would both benifit from swapping hunts with each other so you would both have a point of reference when these discusiions come up.
This has been a great thread. Thanks to all that have contributed. Some of you know I'm working on a calling in the East video and this thread covers lots of the topics in the video. I also have some great footage that demonstrates much of what was discussed in theis thread.
Byron
[ February 17, 2005, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 15, 2005, 12:41 PM:
Don't worry skinner.
You didn't wind me up any. I just wanted to give folks a glimpse of how my coyote adventure evolved. Plus the fact that I have had exposure and experience to just about every technique discussed here. And a few that hasn't been yet.
I am not a numbers type guy. I get my enjoyment from calling coyotes. Heck I traveled all the way to CA a couple times to hunt with my buddies. The trips coincided with their club hunts and they were taking out some new members for the first time. I spent most the time calling, or on the flipper light for the new guys. I had just as much fun doing that as being on the gun.
As for Tom Bechdal, as I said before I am not that arrogent to call his claims bullshit. But I spent a ton of time running all over PA chasing coyotes, and the ground doesn't show me the concentrations of coyotes to stack up those numbers. You got trappers and houndsmen comming nowhere near those type numbers and their trade is prone to be more productive than calling. And it wouldn't take much to convince me the guy is as good as he claims. 3+ "called" coyotes, "checked in" to one of the weekend coyote contests would satisfy me.
Remember, you got around 5000 guys statewide entering in this contest, and normally the take is about 50 coyotes.
Posted by 222 (Member # 567) on February 15, 2005, 03:04 PM:
quote:
What does Tom claim for numbers? I heard once that he clamed to kill 300 coyotes and fox a season. All called. Rich, how many dead coyotes did you see in his scrap book?
Here is a quote from a web page on Tom:
quote:
“Within the past 10 years I have become a predator hunter in earnest,” said Bechdel. “I have a very high success rate of harvesting Eastern coyote. During the past three years I have harvested 257 coyotes in Pennsylvania and Ohio. The largest was 67 pounds, and the most I have harvested in one day is eight. During the seminar I will cover all 12 months of the coyote’s life, what he does, how he does it, and why. I will also tell how large a coyote can get, as well as what they will and will not eat and all ways of protecting yourself, livestock and pets. This will be an hour well spent to learn about your new neighbor.”
I tend to agree w/Hodgen. Based on my personal experience, I would find it challenging to even come close to some of the # he has attained. There are a lot of seasoned callers, I know, who put their dues in each and every year and may walk away with a handful of sucessful kills. Now on the flip side, If someone spends say 8 hrs a day, year round in persuit, perhaps those numbers are obtainable??? Personally, I do not know of anyone who does that sooo.... I think it would be interesting to hear his take on things.
One interesting note: The results of a recent 5 county NEPA Hunt ( Sponsored by the group which hosted GS) neted 15 yotes. I belive total registered participants where in the low 600. Out of the 15 that were turned in, 5 were called in on sets. Out of the past 3 yrs, this seems to be a good average.
[ February 15, 2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: 222 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2005, 03:16 PM:
Numbers are a yardstick I can relate to....
The single statistic that jumps out at me from that press release is: eight coyotes in a single day!
Put me down, from a <shrug> to VERY DOUBTFUL; at this point, I'm not stradling a fence.
You can hunt every day and stack up some eye poping numbers, annually; but eight coyotes in one day is a damn good day's work, out west.
Good hunting. LB
edited for spelling, please excuse. BTW, anybody seen Larry Darby, lately?
[ February 15, 2005, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 15, 2005, 04:15 PM:
I agree with Leonard.My all time best with my brother is 9 coyotes in a day.And that was in an area with a VERY high concentration of coyotes.That was 15 minute stands from daylight til dark.And still it seemed like everything had to be perfect.GOOD HUNTING C.O
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 15, 2005, 04:46 PM:
Leonard,
Now that was funny.
Randy
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 15, 2005, 09:19 PM:
I guess it really doesn’t matter how many coyotes he or anyone else says they shoot. Saying something is one thing and proving it is another. We need to get Bill Martz and Tom in on this thread to liven things up a bit. LOL I know Bill has met and dealt with Tom before. LOL If I remember right Bill once said that Tom hit him up for a job to promote HIS calls because after “Johnny Stewart” sold out he thought he was out of the loop.
This was a long time ago on “The Shade Tree” so I may be mistaken. If a likable guy like Tom is a great PR man, a dynamic speaker and knowledgeable; who really cares if he is so full of $hit his eyes are brown. LOL If he is selling calls, packing sports shows and keeping everyone happy in the process then I am sure no one would be at all interested in calling his bluff. Especially no one making the money. LOL
Experienced or not, if you are a great salesmen people will listen and believe.
The Internet supports a pretty good roster of “virtual” coyote hunters who rely ONLY on their slick tongues for credibility.
On another note I dug up an old O’Gorman catalog I have (1996-97) and it has a picture of a guy form PA with the initials A. C. that trapped 442 fox, 53 coons, 8 possums and only 5 coyotes. Now that is about 88.5 fox per coyote. Would Toms calling ratio be similar? If it were that would put him at about 7580 fox called and killed per year!! How many did he call in and miss? LOL How many fox does he claim a year?
Hodgen says that basically 1 in 100 guys will check in a coyote in one of there weekend hunts. Is that calling only? Maybe they are having such shitty luck because Tom has them all shot out of PA. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2005, 09:47 PM:
Hey, Quinton. The only way to really find out, is to ask his fur buyer......you remember that one, don't you?
Really, we don't know the man, at all. Could be the real deal? But, it seems like the hardest people to convince, is other easterners. He's stacking up (claiming) western numbers, that's for sure.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 15, 2005, 11:29 PM:
Just like it was yesterday Leonard. Sly reminded me of that one while he hunted with me as well. LOL I figured he was just another ball licking wannabe so I busted his balls a little. Never gave him a second thought for over a year until Byron told me he personally hunted with him and stayed at his home. Byron vouched for him so I wrote him an e-mail one day and apologized for my rude behavior. I didn’t think he would even remember me but he did and now all is well.
I have no problem admitting that I am wrong when I am wrong and will humbly own up to it. I didn’t have to write sly that letter but I did. Sly is a good guy with a heart as big as he is. No one I know puts more work and money into helping under privileged and inner city kids go hunting than Sly.
I think Tom is full of shit and I think you think Tom is full of shit. I even think GS thinks Tom is full of shit but Dale Carnegie would role over in his grave if he ever said something that abrasive. LOL Sorry GS; there I go assuming again. The way you handled yourself in the big GS BM debate on the shade tree left me with the impression you had either read his three books or took the course. Maybe both? I am dying to know! Very classy I might add. No one else I know could keep their composure like that!!
I am a big Dale Carnegie fan myself but I have a lot more fun plying the bad guy. LOL
I am sure old Tom is a nice guy and I am sure I would like him if I met him. It is just rude to flat out call some one a liar if you don’t have proof so for the record I will just suggest that the man is mathematically challenged. LOL How bout dat?
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on February 16, 2005, 04:13 AM:
Q-Wagoner,
Mathmatically Challenged or maybe dyslexic.
Say someone went 1-8 on a givin day and wrote it down. Then 1-5 the next two days
When they review the notes later on, they get:
8-1, 5-1 and 5-1.
That gives them 18 coyotes in three days with only three setup. The best being eight on a stand.
Not bad for three days hunting. Even in the target rich east!
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 16, 2005, 04:36 AM:
Q-Wagoner, I had to reach way back in my bag of Dale Carnigie diplomacy to write this reply since you have very erroneously judged me in regards to Tom. I have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt until someone can prove otherwise. I would do the same for you. Have you ever heard the phrase "loose cannon on the deck". That phrase came to mind as I read your post.
Consider this in your judgement of Tom. 8 in a day does sound pretty remarkable but if you look at others in the west who have had pretty remarkable days it may not be so impossible to believe.
What is the best take for western contest hunts? What is the most you have heard from friends who have had remarkable days? Do you believe them. I know of many figures that range all the way up to 20+ in a day from reputable guys. Gerry Blair once told me he called 43 in one day. Had he and his friend been shooting for furs that day it is concievable they could have taken a pretty "remarkable" number that day. Would you consider Gerry Blair "full of shit". I don't.
I have another friend who called 28 in one day and took 23. Apply that percentage to Gerry's day and we would all stand in awe. I don't think my very good friend is "full of shit".
And by the way, I did take Dale Carnigie and have read several of his books....and please... don't take this as in your face because we are all on the same team....just think before you speak for others.
For the rest to consider, try to be confident in your own abilities and experience and don't take someone else's claims as an affront to your manliness or calling prowess. If Tom is teaching and promoting the sport effectively then who should give a hoot what his numbers are. You have already heard two very experienced callers who both confirm that he has a very good knowledge of calling. I hope you don't consider us "full of shit".
Q - we really need to have this disscusion around a campfire and enjoy shooting some coyotes together. In spite of your post I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe the many good things I have read and others have said about you.
[ February 16, 2005, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 16, 2005, 05:07 AM:
I don't know one way or the other, but it's sure fun to do the math. Would it be possible to shoot 1 coyote day? Average success rate of !0%,25%, or 50% on stands made? How many stands a day can you make? 5,10, 15, 20? How many muliples, maybe 5 or more doubles in a year? Work a couple of litters in July or August and shoot the alphas and 3,4,5 pups. Hunt 365 days a year or do you take Sunday off to go to church? etc.....
I just don't know.
Dennis
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2005, 07:09 AM:
Maybe we need to get off this subject? As Quinton and I said previously, it's really not fair to question a man's word, out of hand.
Dang, Q! We don't need Martz to liven things up, do we?
If you ever get the chance to set around a fire with GS, I bet you'd enjoy it..... I wouldn't mind being there, myself. And, he could learn us both a few pointers on diplomacy, I bet.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on February 16, 2005, 09:30 AM:
Gerald,
Not only did you take that course, you obviously passed it too. HA HA
Q,
I told you not to be such a hard ass. Maybe you need to take a Randy Buker course!!!
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 16, 2005, 01:14 PM:
…His face went stone cold, snapping his head to look “Q” straight in the eye as he spoke. “I usually wait until the fur is prime before I leave ‘em lay.” was all he said.
It made Q’s eye twitch and tighten his grip on the Swift…
I am always amused when I see “Q” post. Not because of the content. His writing is very good. I always think back to first meeting him. Q rode with me from Phoenix to Silver Springs New Mexico. In all that drive he spoke less than 12 words. Who’d have ever thunk?
[ February 16, 2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 16, 2005, 02:00 PM:
Jay, Jay. You crack me up. When is someone going to publish your short stories?
I spent three days with Q last year. Different one than the guy that rode with you. Q was great company and funny as hell.
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on February 16, 2005, 02:51 PM:
Jay,
Q was obviously intimidated by your presence. He is always very talkitive with Rich and I, but maybe we are just a little less intimidateing .
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 16, 2005, 03:28 PM:
Actually I think it was Fred sitting in the front seat with me.
Coming back we couldn't shut that sucker up!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 16, 2005, 04:30 PM:
Damn! Been sitting here since sun up trying to get to the end and I'm almost there.
Kinda hoping I could find the pearl that would explian why my hunting has gone to shit the past two seasons, especially after Christmas. Didn't find it yet. Guess I'll have to write it up to "shit happens".
Gerald, if there's a man in this world that comes off online differently than he is standing in front of you, it's gotta be Q. T&PC isn't usually regarded as a "humor" magazine, but that part under the Nebraska Fur Harvester's Association column that kept listing him as the Public Relations Director was the funniest damned thing I ever saw, month after month.
Q-
Quit pickin' on folks. Well,... most folks. You can still pick on Krusty.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 16, 2005, 04:46 PM:
Jay, That would explain why Q was so quiet on the ride there. Fred's a big boy, if he was hung over and gave Q the evil eye as he got in the truck, poor Q was probably too scared to speak.
Leonard, You just brought up something that has been on my mind the last 4-5 months. But it deserves it's own thread someday. You might do some thinking on if we want to go hunting in the same place last the last two years, With easy access and a great campsite.
Or, maybe start looking for another good area with a few more coyotes.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 16, 2005, 06:21 PM:
Cdog911, If my aging memory serves me right, I got to meet Q at the Silver City meet. Had a favorable impression of him then and still do.
[ February 16, 2005, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 16, 2005, 08:52 PM:
HA!! I knew I smelled Dale Carnegie!! LOL His book “How to Win Friends and Influence People” is my favorite. It is like a bible to me. I am sure you recognized it in my posts as well?
I don’t think Gerry is full of it because he was taking pictures on the ****** O,Odam ****** *********** in south central AZ. The old Papigo. No coyote hunting allowed. The other numbers you posted are possible under the right conditions on private ground. I’ll bet that guy only hunts that ranch once a year and probably had a partner?
Big numbers are nearly always shrouded in some kind of unique circumstances.
Right or wrong a coyote hunters skills are judged by how many coyotes they kill in their respective areas. For a guy to make claims like Tom does is in effect telling EVERY coyote hunter in PA and Ohio that he is WAY better than them. Considering Toms highly controversial claims I don’t think it is out of line to call his bluff. I know we shouldn’t take someone else's claims as an affront to our manliness or calling prowess but… If he is claiming to be better than everyone else no matter how indirectly, he should at least cough up some proof.
quote:
I am always amused when I see “Q” post. Not because of the content.
Damn it Jay now you went and hurt my feelings!! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Not because of the content!!!!!! And where in the hell is “Silver Springs?” LOL I didn’t speak on the way up because I couldn’t see through the smoke. You were chain-smoking cigarettes and Fred was chain-smoking cigars!! By the time I got back to Nebraska I had to get on the “patch” just to keep me from chewing my fingernails off!!!!
Anyway I talked to Bill Martz on the phone tonight to try and refresh my memory about Tom. Interesting. I told him his name came up here on Huntmasters fallowed by some big numbers. I think he is going to post tomorrow and no I didn’t ask him too. LOL I told him he was going to get me in trouble so if the $hit hits the fan it’s not my fault!!!! LOL I am just a spectator now. I will put up my fur and stay tuned. Leave em lay…. Sheesh
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 17, 2005, 10:26 AM:
Quinton,
I have an opening in late July and was wondering if you could, by any chance, make it down to do a little calling.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on February 17, 2005, 10:40 AM:
Can’t do it Jay! I have prior arraignments. I’ll be in Alaska clubbing baby seals. Will June work for you? I will bring the treble hooks and the Puppy Chow.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Larry Darby (Member # 558) on February 17, 2005, 11:41 AM:
I'm still here. Just trying to sift through all this good advice. I feel humbled by some of the more experienced hunters here but I'm willing to learn. Gerald I will be at your seminar next week. Look forward to meeting you.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 17, 2005, 01:27 PM:
The pleasure will be mine.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 21, 2005, 02:45 PM:
For those interested, here are "supposed" preliminary results for the Mosquito creek contest. Participation seems substantially down. But looks like we are improving to about a "1 in 42" ratio this year.
I havn't heard any numbers as of yet concerning "numbers vs hounds/callers/hunters.
4373 registered hunters
102 Coyotes killed. Each guy got $107.18
First place 45.5 lbs $5,466.25
Second Place $3,279.75
Third place $2,186.50
Posted by Dogwood Creek (Member # 611) on March 12, 2005, 05:39 PM:
Those would appear to be the right numbers on the Mosquito Creek Hunt. I personally didn't do as good as the average. I had 2 visuals, worked 4 different coyotes, and killed 0. I have been hanging around over at Predator Masters but this looks like a fun place to be too. You guys are more fun to read along with than the 45 min. barking contest I had with one of those afore mentioned coyotes! I love the good natured kidding & all the information you can get on these forums. I hope to pick up a few pointers from time to time.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 12, 2005, 06:41 PM:
Welcome Mr. Creek, or may we call you Dogwood?
I'll be picking your brains about doing some videoing in Pa. this year.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 12, 2005, 10:39 PM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, dogwood. Glad to have you o board.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Dogwood Creek (Member # 611) on March 13, 2005, 06:52 AM:
Rich & Leonard; Thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here.
Posted by Dogwood Creek (Member # 611) on March 13, 2005, 07:19 AM:
Rich; If I can be of any help to you in regard to your video It would be my pleasure. I will tell you upfront it is tough hunting. Not so much the coyotes themselves, but the terrain and tresspass rights. I have about 10,000 acres of open hunting near my home and there are various other gamelands avail across the state. You will want to do as much scouting as possible before you committ to an area. If I can help I would be glad to.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 13, 2005, 02:49 PM:
I appreciate the offer and I will certainly talk to you.
Posted by DJ in AZ (Member # 276) on March 13, 2005, 04:27 PM:
Well, after reading all eight pages of this thread , looks like these eastern dogs may call for some different tatics . Can't wait to give them a go!! Relocated up in N.E. Ohio and so far I hear there's a huntable population.
Hey Rich -- How did you do in the last couple of club hunts ?(sure miss the hell out of them hunts).
[ March 13, 2005, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: DJ in AZ ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 13, 2005, 06:33 PM:
Hey Danny, good to hear from you. We took first place in the handgun hunt last month. We are the first team accused or suspected of cheating to hunt with a "judge". So it's a good thing we did all right. Ron Peebles was our judge. Really terrific guy. He has become a friend of ours since. We tied for second this month. Kelly and his team checked in before we did.
Brent Saxton invited you to call him and set up an Ohio hunt. You ought to do that. I've hunted with him and he's good company and sure knows those Ohio coyotes.
Posted by DJ in AZ (Member # 276) on March 13, 2005, 08:23 PM:
Good job Rich!!! You guys got best of seven locked up!! Congrat's to Tyler, Rob and you.
I'll give Brent a call. Would like very much to go calling with him here in Ohio.
Ron is a good guy,and I'm glad you got that bull sh$$ straightend out once and for all(hopefully).
[ March 13, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: DJ in AZ ]
Posted by TurkeyClucker (Member # 613) on March 14, 2005, 08:04 PM:
I too have had nothing but trouble out of getting coyotes to come to my calls here in the east. I have all but given up hope in the erea I hunt. I really just don't think they are there. However, I know of areas where they are quite abundant and the landowners want them out. Any suggestions on how to contact these folks and getting permission. My time is limited due ot the fact I am currently in school, away from these areas. So I will have to wait till the summertime to hunt.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 14, 2005, 08:11 PM:
Really, if you want to kill a coyote, the best thing you can do is head west, and find some BLM land. Then, at least, you will know what worked for you, and you can apply it when you get home. If you are getting a few turkeys, seems like you know how to sit still and keep your eyes open? Something that is hard for some people to figure out, is recognizing what kind of cover holds coyotes.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 14, 2005, 08:17 PM:
TurkeyClucker, I hear you, I too, have had nothing but trouble getting coyotes that aren't there to come in to my calls.
Between now and Sept. is a great time to do some scouting, talk to farmers and other landowners, take a camera calling, or just observe these fascinating little guys and learn something more about them.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 14, 2005, 08:28 PM:
Thanks for the congrats, Danny. We should have a lock on the "Best of Seven" trophy, we took 4 firsts, 2 seconds and third.
I doubt that the BS is over with though.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 14, 2005, 09:03 PM:
Hello Ant. Some of those old farmers are pretty sharp and if you approach them with a "could you help me learn a little bit about coyotes because it's something I'd really like to hunt" routine, they just may take you under their wing. Giving them the upper hand helps to boost their ego a bit. Don't come across like you are the expert and could do them a favor. Listening will be your biggest asset. Getting them to open up and tell you a story or two whether it's about coyotes or hunting pheasant can do wonders.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on March 15, 2005, 01:49 AM:
TurkeyClucker....were are you at in wv? Im only about 20 min from Huntington Wv and about 45 Min from Charlston Wv.
DJ...I will be looking for that call!
Brent
Posted by TurkeyClucker (Member # 613) on March 21, 2005, 08:34 PM:
keekee, Currently I live in Morgantown, I attend WVU. My homeplace is Dunbar, right otusdie of Charleston. We aren't too far away at all. Last weekend I was in a hog hunt in TN and a member of our hunting group got a coyote with his muzzleloader. He wasn't much more than 200 yards away from where I was. Almost got my first one.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on March 22, 2005, 01:42 AM:
Yep, Your about a Hr or so from me. I can be in Charlston in 45 min from my house. I hunt a little over there in Wv but to be strait up, there are not alot of coyotes down on this end of the state yet. I Turkey hunt over there every year and get over there a few time a year to call but its really no worth the effort. I got some friends and family over there, so when they want to go I try to get over there and call with them. They do have a fair population of bobcats though and some fox. Just dont see much coyote sign there at all. We get a couple a year there is about it. Seems there are pockets of coyotes and you just haft to find them.
Brent
Posted by TurkeyClucker (Member # 613) on March 22, 2005, 09:43 AM:
Your exactly right. I do almost all of my hunting in Mason Co. and they just recently started to be a problem there. My area I hunt just doesn't have them thoough. Plenty of turkeys though, so it's just fine with me, I will travel for the yotes if I have to.
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