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Topic: The East will rise again
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Jrbhunter
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posted February 11, 2005 10:48 AM
After reading another thread I was somewhat interested by a theory posted in there. Leonard said he understands the difference in calling the east and west sections of the country and would lower his expectations if he went to Pennsylvania to hunt. That may be one of the most honest posts I've read on an internet forum... and it left me wondering how I ( An Easterner ) would fair in the west.
Hypothetically , if two callers of equal ability and experience were simultaneiously transported, one from Kentucky to California and the other from California to Kentucky. Who would call up more coyotes? Who would kill more? This is strictly hypothetical and not meant to start any big fueds... I'm just wondering how some folks feel about the complexity of calling predators on either side of the Mississippi River. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Pa Teeny
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Member # 562
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posted February 11, 2005 11:25 AM
Hunting is hunting- some people are skilled and more focused and pay attention to details. To watch the videos it looks easy- but those hunters have logged tons of hours of hunting and fine tuned their art of hunting Mr. Coyote.
I from Pa would not do very good in the west because I am Still a greenhorn on the matter. Coyote are a mystery? I read and love to see the discussions on the boards.
Here in Pa I feel we will dread Mr. Wily E. Coyote sooner than expected- Our deer/ turkey/ pheasant numbers will fall and the coyotes are big in my county. I had a female student shoot a 62 lber during deer season. I need to scan the picture and post it.
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Coyote Hunting best Cure for the Winter Blues!!
Posts: 12 | From: Laurel Mountains of PA Elevation 2827 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hodgen
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posted February 11, 2005 11:44 AM
Since I have hunted both sides of the fence, I'll offer up my opinion.
As far as calling coyotes. I think a somewhat experienced easterner could stand toe to toe with the same experienced western caller. Might even give the edge to the easterner, only because he may go a bit more "in depth" quicker with his calling.
This is not to degrade westerners, it's just because they normally don't have to take their calling to that level to get a response.
Although I have seen "serious" western callers go there when things get tough and they have to work for coyotes.
But I think where the western boys shine, is in killing coyotes. They are more acustom to shooting longer ranges than us easterners. And they know how to shoot coyotes. We'll miss more coyotes than they do hands down.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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keekee
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Member # 465
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posted February 11, 2005 01:14 PM
I just got back from Az a few weeks ago myself. And I will say that there are areas in the west that are just as hard to call coyotes as the are here in the East. You still haft to work for coyotes in some areas.
And there are areas that there seem to be coyotes behind every bush. And there are areas that dont get hunted as much, all this makes a diffrence no mater were your hunting.
The predator hunting in the west is far better than anything I have in the East to hunt and the numbers out west are better. A good caller and hunter is going to call more coyote because there are more coyotes to call. But you still haft to have the hole package no matter were your calling, set-up, calling and all that run hand in hand, weather its east or west.
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
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Doggitter
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posted February 11, 2005 06:06 PM
Can I toss my 2bits in?
I'd first ask of the question, "in what time frame?". If you're talking immediately then I'd guess the westerner would best the easterner of the same amout of experience by a tad bit. Then in a short period of time I'd guess the situation may well turn around. The easterner's tenacity, if you will, would be more of a common method and, agreeing with Hodgen, westerners may normally get by without the "work".
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Skinner 2
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posted February 12, 2005 03:44 PM
Take two same experienced callers as JRB said. Drop them into unknown area, let them scout, set up and call. I would expect near the same results. But actually more misses from the eastern guy from lack of long range shooting.
OH and I didn't know the east fell. When did this happen?
Skinner 2
[ February 12, 2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Skinner 2 ]
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Jrbhunter
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posted February 14, 2005 02:10 AM
DogGitter, let's use one hunting season as our timeframe. And by season I mean October-February.
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Gerald Stewart
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posted February 14, 2005 04:59 AM
Here is my take on it Jrbhunter. I think you should consider rephrasing the question because the way I read it they would be equal in all ways and it would be a wash. If they have the same level of experience wouldn't that mean that they could even shoot the same?
If the hypothetical was that you take a consistently successful caller(not equal)from both the east and west and swap them, I would give the nod to the Eastern caller because he has had to pay more attention to every aspect of the variables he is dealing with. Example: I have a good friend that is one hell of a coyote slayer. He can call extremely well but....He pays little attention to the wind, uses no camo and moves too much. In the 15 years I have known him I have probably seen him miss 2 coyotes in all of that time we have called together.
You guys in the East can't be sloppy. I believe the two most important factors that create that difference is terrain and hunting pressure.....what say you?
[ February 14, 2005, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
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Jrbhunter
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posted February 14, 2005 06:35 AM
By "Equal" I mean to imply that the guys would have similar abilities in aspects of predator hunting in it's simplest form. That doesn't sound right but I don't know how else to type it... here goes...
The two hunters should both be proficient with howlers and hand calls of various flavors.
The two hunters should both be decent with a rifle and/or shotgun. (On paper, not judging by who chokes under pressure)
The hunters should be of similar physical build. (Terrain differences would be a big factor)
Anyways, I hope you get the point. The idea is to take a hunter "out of his element" and see how he handles it.
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My personal theory is that the Eastern caller would have a pretty decent advantage. I think when it comes to choosing setups, playing wind direction, coordinating shooting lanes and using the terrain to a hunters advantage the Kentucky boy vacationing in California would set himself up much faster. Not that guys out west don't know how to setup... just saying the amount of study and field trial required to master the swirling winds and thermals of Kentucky should be more complicated than what he'd see out there. That's real vague I know... but you get my point.
The easterner would probably choke on some coyotes at first... the shooting ability and coyote fever would definatly be an issue but I think they would be more easily overcome than the terrain and population density issues the California guy would incurr.
My guess would be...
Average season before the Hunter-Swap
California boy kills 80 in California
Kentucky boy kills 15 in Kentucky
Season of the Swap
California boy kills 5 in Kentucky
Kentucky boy kills 50 in California
Just my opinion, but I've never killed one west of the Mississippi so who am I too talk. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ February 14, 2005, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 14, 2005 10:29 AM
This is simply an excercise in speculation and the "results" can be tweaked to any arbitrary conclusion the author of the fiction wishes.
Case scenario.
California caller, accustomed to calling coyotes into bow range in the steep foothills covered with scrub oak and manzanita where good visibilty is 20 yard shooting lanes, looks the Kentucky terrain and flora over, aware of terrain influences on thermal currents and the nature of cautious coyotes and their propensity to utilize said terrain and flora to their advantage, decides that this is going to be much easier than calling at home and takes fifty pelts home with him.
The Kentucky caller finds a thick green crop field in a canyon surrounded by manzanita covered ridges and thinks
"This is just like home". On his first stand, while attempting to call coyotes out of the marijuana field, he is shot by the drug dealers guards.
Score:
California caller= 50
Kentucky caller= 0
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Gerald Stewart
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posted February 14, 2005 11:05 AM
Your right Rich, it is just hypotheticals and a guessing game. I was thinking more along the lines of the average successful caller from each area. If you start picking out individual people then that takes away the whole hypothetical consideration, There are some individuals that would do well anywhere.
Posts: 419 | From: Waco,Tx | Registered: Mar 2003
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Jrbhunter
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posted February 14, 2005 11:14 AM
It appears to be more of an investigation of the term "Hypothetically".
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pup
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posted February 14, 2005 12:01 PM
I think that the Western transplant gets tired of staring intensely at dense brush and saves money and goes out to west parts unknown to call for a week or two.
If it is about the coyote hunt, no need to move. If becomes a matter of numbers, pack the bags, or start dozing brush in exchange for hunting priveleges.
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Leonard
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posted February 14, 2005 12:55 PM
Some of the speculation seems to want to score talent, group versus group? If you consider the home field advantage, we must not forget that "we" (cough) invented this stuff, and take to it like a duck to water. Some of the eastern preparation I have read about is a decidedly foreign concept, to me. I don't even have to secure permission from anyone, and I can cold call places for three days straight and never have been there, yet, will probably kill enough coyotes that would compare favorably with an individual's entire season in the eastern U.S.
Really, really, hard to try and gauge skill. I can hunt coyotes while falling asleep, and the successful easterners need to make it into a recreation of the Normandy Landing. I wonder if the easterner, coming to (say) California for the first time is not wasting a lot of time in his ritual? You do what you have to do, of course, but I just cannot see how we can reach consensus on who has the better hunters?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 14, 2005 01:01 PM
OK Gerald, you said
"If you start picking out individual people then that takes away the whole hypothetical consideration, There are some individuals that would do well anywhere."
So let's approach it from that angle. Assemble two teams of excellent callers, one from the west and one from the east, and ask each team how they would conduct a specific stand in the east and one in the west. The west team would be comprised of
The Schmid Bros.
The Johnsons
The Heids
Scott Huber
Cal Tayler
Q Wagoner
Gerald Stewart
Murray Burnham
Gerry Blair
Jay Nistetter
Leonard Bosinski
The east team would be
Brent Saxton
George Brint
uummm
wait a minute
uuummmm
Never mind.
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keekee
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posted February 14, 2005 03:50 PM
I have made stands in both parts.
I will say this though, I had good teachers to hunt with when I got there Jay, Tyler, Rich, Gary! This made a big diffrence!
My first day there in Az I hunted with Jay, I learned alot the first day real fast! Western hunting is alot diffrent than Eastern hunting! If I would of been on my own, then it would of took me a little longer to get the hang of how things are done there in the West. I think I may have spent more time checking things out and looking for sign, tracks, scat, I know I would of took more time picking out my stands!
When I switched hunting partners things changed, not alot but some. Even western callers do things diffrent, its not all the same.
We just cant run and gun here like they do in the west, or cold call. Well, I cant. Some eastern states have better populations than others.
I dont know how a western caller would call here, I havent got one to come out here yet! and Rich you dont count, you were filming!
I think it would be great to got one of the Western guys here to hunt. It is realy hard to say one way or the other who would do the best. I think who ever hunted the west would kill more coyotes for sure!
Brent
[ February 14, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
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Kee's Custom Calls
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Leonard
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posted February 14, 2005 04:30 PM
quote:
I think who ever hunted the west would kill more coyotes for sure! Brent
The question is....WHY?
Another facet seems to be rearing it's head; namely;
Western coyotes are stupid!
Or, eastern coyotes are smarter, as you prefer.
So, the West appears to have more coyotes.
The Eastern coyotes are more pressured?
Eastern hunters can't shoot through all the trees, and they can't call them into the open.
Which of the above reasons account for the first statement? Any? None of the above?
What do you think? LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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keekee
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posted February 14, 2005 04:56 PM
I wasnt think that way LB. The thing is there are more Coyotes out west.
The more coyotes there are the better the odds of calling them.
I hunted some great spots out there and I hunted some spots that were tough to call. But the areas that had the numbers and didnt have the pressure produced more coyotes. The areas of state trust land that got hammerd were harder to call.
It to me is not a matter of who shoots better or who calls better. Shooting and calling are just part of the hole deal. You haft to have the hole package togeather. And if we are talking about even callers and hunters then I think the west would kill more coyotes, just because there are more targets there and the chances of calling a coyote are better. The numbers there are just better than they are here.
I seen more coyotes there in a day than I would call here in a mounth! And they were easyer to get to, easyer to set up on, no hills, no wind shifts or drifts, stuff like that.
Im not in any way saying that the Western coyotes are dumber than they are here in the East. Alot of factors come into play here that dont there. One of the big factors is number of coyotes.
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
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Doggitter
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posted February 14, 2005 05:06 PM
""I can hunt coyotes while falling asleep, and the successful easterners need to make it into a recreation of the Normandy Landing. I wonder if the easterner, coming to (say) California for the first time is not wasting a lot of time in his ritual? ""
That's a big apart of what I meant in saying that the eastern would be at a disadvantage at the start. Within a couple weeks he'd figure his ways could be streamlined to the point that if the slamfire of success didn't blow his mind, he'd pass up the "taking the easy hunting for granted" westerner.
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Hodgen
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posted February 14, 2005 05:29 PM
Although I was lucky enough to have someone introduce me to California hunting, if I went in blind, I'd fall back on three things.
Food supply....water.....and cover.
Find water and the other two are usually close by.
Stock tanks....stock pens w/stock.....town dumps.
Maybe it's just the coyotes out west are more concentrated in smaller areas? It would explaine the multiple responses at a stand. Also would explaine why their tougher to find in the east. The three are everywhere you look.
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Gerald Stewart
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posted February 14, 2005 06:35 PM
Hey Rich, I have a feeling that there are some very good experienced callers in the east who choose to go quietly about their business. I have a feeling that some of them have a territorial thing going on.
I know of a guy in Abilene Tx who would scratch the labels off of his calling tapes and would number them so nobody would discover what he was using. That mind set is probably is a lot more prevalent in the east in a variety of ways because of the intense competition for land access and the desire to get a leg up on the competition.
I am humbled that you would throw me in on your west team but I would not be surprised if the East put together a formidible(is that spelled correctly?)team. They would just have to start talking to one another to find the good ones.
[ February 14, 2005, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
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posted February 14, 2005 06:49 PM
If it was a short 2-3 day hunt, the Eastern hunter might come out on top.
But on a season long hunt, I'd have to give my nod to the Western hunter, all things being equal. Not that he can out shoot or out call anyone else.
But when the Western hunter goes back East and gets a bunch of blank stands. He, sooner or later, is going to find a place that looks "Catty" and slip into to a cat hunting mode. After a couple of "Cat stands" that end up with a coyote, he is going to start making all of his stands last for 30 minutes and spend a lot of time scanning the brush for a coyote looking at him.
The Eastern hunter on the other hand, is going to keep doing what he has always been doing. Spending 30 minutes or longer on a stand, but so happy that he killed a coyote in the first 5-10 minutes, he may never realize he doesn't need to stay longer than that. Therefore wasting 20-30 minutes on each stand, when he could be spending his time more productively somewhere down the road.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted February 14, 2005 08:13 PM
That's some interesting observations, Tim. You may be on to something?
Maybe that's a factor? Western dogs don't mess around, they generally show up in ten minutes or less. Free spirits, not a care in the world.
Eastern coyotes have a little trouble adjusting to all the damned trees! They want to be seen, they really do!
I will grudgingly give all those eastern coyote hunters an A (for effort)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Jrbhunter
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posted February 15, 2005 02:15 AM
If we're turning it into East vs. West in teams then we want all our transfers back! Seems anytime someone wants to expand on their passion of predator calling; weather it be making calls, movies or guiding hunts; they all move west. Interesting don't ya think?
And Rich, Gerald is right... there are a lot of good callers in the east that don't share secrets with their hunting buddies, much less sit down to internet forums daily. Most of us are just wannabe's but occasionally we cross paths with someone of "Western Caliber". ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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illinois farm boy
PAKMAN
Member # 399
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posted February 15, 2005 06:11 AM
i have been calling coyotes for 20-25yrs mainly with my brother never been west just in southern illinois all farming area every field has tree borders most of my calling is done within 15 mile from home one of the big differences i think there would be that if i get very far from home i don't know who owns what and therefor couldn't hunt for tresspassing where out west i believe you can hunt almost anywhere with the public land would probably overwhelm me a long shot would 200-300yds if you could take it without a house or farm being in your line of fire another difference would be anytime a coyote breaks cover here he is watching for vehicles or sign on people very cautious at all times i believe the eastern guy would call more coyotes than the western guy just from the standpoint of numbers of coyotes
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