This is topic The East will rise again in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 11, 2005, 10:48 AM:
 
After reading another thread I was somewhat interested by a theory posted in there. Leonard said he understands the difference in calling the east and west sections of the country and would lower his expectations if he went to Pennsylvania to hunt. That may be one of the most honest posts I've read on an internet forum... and it left me wondering how I ( An Easterner ) would fair in the west.

Hypothetically , if two callers of equal ability and experience were simultaneiously transported, one from Kentucky to California and the other from California to Kentucky. Who would call up more coyotes? Who would kill more? This is strictly hypothetical and not meant to start any big fueds... I'm just wondering how some folks feel about the complexity of calling predators on either side of the Mississippi River.
 

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Posted by Pa Teeny (Member # 562) on February 11, 2005, 11:25 AM:
 
Hunting is hunting- some people are skilled and more focused and pay attention to details. To watch the videos it looks easy- but those hunters have logged tons of hours of hunting and fine tuned their art of hunting Mr. Coyote.

I from Pa would not do very good in the west because I am Still a greenhorn on the matter. Coyote are a mystery? I read and love to see the discussions on the boards.

Here in Pa I feel we will dread Mr. Wily E. Coyote sooner than expected- Our deer/ turkey/ pheasant numbers will fall and the coyotes are big in my county. I had a female student shoot a 62 lber during deer season. I need to scan the picture and post it.
 

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Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 11, 2005, 11:44 AM:
 
Since I have hunted both sides of the fence, I'll offer up my opinion.

As far as calling coyotes. I think a somewhat experienced easterner could stand toe to toe with the same experienced western caller. Might even give the edge to the easterner, only because he may go a bit more "in depth" quicker with his calling.

This is not to degrade westerners, it's just because they normally don't have to take their calling to that level to get a response.

Although I have seen "serious" western callers go there when things get tough and they have to work for coyotes.

But I think where the western boys shine, is in killing coyotes. They are more acustom to shooting longer ranges than us easterners. And they know how to shoot coyotes. We'll miss more coyotes than they do hands down.
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 11, 2005, 01:14 PM:
 
I just got back from Az a few weeks ago myself. And I will say that there are areas in the west that are just as hard to call coyotes as the are here in the East. You still haft to work for coyotes in some areas.

And there are areas that there seem to be coyotes behind every bush. And there are areas that dont get hunted as much, all this makes a diffrence no mater were your hunting.

The predator hunting in the west is far better than anything I have in the East to hunt and the numbers out west are better. A good caller and hunter is going to call more coyote because there are more coyotes to call. But you still haft to have the hole package no matter were your calling, set-up, calling and all that run hand in hand, weather its east or west.

Brent
 

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Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 11, 2005, 06:06 PM:
 
Can I toss my 2bits in?
I'd first ask of the question, "in what time frame?". If you're talking immediately then I'd guess the westerner would best the easterner of the same amout of experience by a tad bit. Then in a short period of time I'd guess the situation may well turn around. The easterner's tenacity, if you will, would be more of a common method and, agreeing with Hodgen, westerners may normally get by without the "work".
 

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Posted by Skinner 2 (Member # 419) on February 12, 2005, 03:44 PM:
 
Take two same experienced callers as JRB said. Drop them into unknown area, let them scout, set up and call. I would expect near the same results. But actually more misses from the eastern guy from lack of long range shooting.

OH and I didn't know the east fell. When did this happen?

Skinner 2

[ February 12, 2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Skinner 2 ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 14, 2005, 02:10 AM:
 
DogGitter, let's use one hunting season as our timeframe. And by season I mean October-February.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 14, 2005, 04:59 AM:
 
Here is my take on it Jrbhunter. I think you should consider rephrasing the question because the way I read it they would be equal in all ways and it would be a wash. If they have the same level of experience wouldn't that mean that they could even shoot the same?

If the hypothetical was that you take a consistently successful caller(not equal)from both the east and west and swap them, I would give the nod to the Eastern caller because he has had to pay more attention to every aspect of the variables he is dealing with. Example: I have a good friend that is one hell of a coyote slayer. He can call extremely well but....He pays little attention to the wind, uses no camo and moves too much. In the 15 years I have known him I have probably seen him miss 2 coyotes in all of that time we have called together.

You guys in the East can't be sloppy. I believe the two most important factors that create that difference is terrain and hunting pressure.....what say you?

[ February 14, 2005, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 14, 2005, 06:35 AM:
 
By "Equal" I mean to imply that the guys would have similar abilities in aspects of predator hunting in it's simplest form. That doesn't sound right but I don't know how else to type it... here goes...

The two hunters should both be proficient with howlers and hand calls of various flavors.

The two hunters should both be decent with a rifle and/or shotgun. (On paper, not judging by who chokes under pressure)

The hunters should be of similar physical build. (Terrain differences would be a big factor)

Anyways, I hope you get the point. The idea is to take a hunter "out of his element" and see how he handles it.

-----------------------------------------------

My personal theory is that the Eastern caller would have a pretty decent advantage. I think when it comes to choosing setups, playing wind direction, coordinating shooting lanes and using the terrain to a hunters advantage the Kentucky boy vacationing in California would set himself up much faster. Not that guys out west don't know how to setup... just saying the amount of study and field trial required to master the swirling winds and thermals of Kentucky should be more complicated than what he'd see out there. That's real vague I know... but you get my point.

The easterner would probably choke on some coyotes at first... the shooting ability and coyote fever would definatly be an issue but I think they would be more easily overcome than the terrain and population density issues the California guy would incurr.

My guess would be...

Average season before the Hunter-Swap

California boy kills 80 in California
Kentucky boy kills 15 in Kentucky

Season of the Swap
California boy kills 5 in Kentucky
Kentucky boy kills 50 in California

Just my opinion, but I've never killed one west of the Mississippi so who am I too talk.

[ February 14, 2005, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 14, 2005, 10:29 AM:
 
This is simply an excercise in speculation and the "results" can be tweaked to any arbitrary conclusion the author of the fiction wishes.
Case scenario.
California caller, accustomed to calling coyotes into bow range in the steep foothills covered with scrub oak and manzanita where good visibilty is 20 yard shooting lanes, looks the Kentucky terrain and flora over, aware of terrain influences on thermal currents and the nature of cautious coyotes and their propensity to utilize said terrain and flora to their advantage, decides that this is going to be much easier than calling at home and takes fifty pelts home with him.
The Kentucky caller finds a thick green crop field in a canyon surrounded by manzanita covered ridges and thinks
"This is just like home". On his first stand, while attempting to call coyotes out of the marijuana field, he is shot by the drug dealers guards.
Score:
California caller= 50
Kentucky caller= 0

 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 14, 2005, 11:05 AM:
 
Your right Rich, it is just hypotheticals and a guessing game. I was thinking more along the lines of the average successful caller from each area. If you start picking out individual people then that takes away the whole hypothetical consideration, There are some individuals that would do well anywhere.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 14, 2005, 11:14 AM:
 
It appears to be more of an investigation of the term "Hypothetically".
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on February 14, 2005, 12:01 PM:
 
I think that the Western transplant gets tired of staring intensely at dense brush and saves money and goes out to west parts unknown to call for a week or two.

If it is about the coyote hunt, no need to move. If becomes a matter of numbers, pack the bags, or start dozing brush in exchange for hunting priveleges.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2005, 12:55 PM:
 
Some of the speculation seems to want to score talent, group versus group? If you consider the home field advantage, we must not forget that "we" (cough) invented this stuff, and take to it like a duck to water. Some of the eastern preparation I have read about is a decidedly foreign concept, to me. I don't even have to secure permission from anyone, and I can cold call places for three days straight and never have been there, yet, will probably kill enough coyotes that would compare favorably with an individual's entire season in the eastern U.S.

Really, really, hard to try and gauge skill. I can hunt coyotes while falling asleep, and the successful easterners need to make it into a recreation of the Normandy Landing. I wonder if the easterner, coming to (say) California for the first time is not wasting a lot of time in his ritual? You do what you have to do, of course, but I just cannot see how we can reach consensus on who has the better hunters?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 14, 2005, 01:01 PM:
 
OK Gerald, you said
"If you start picking out individual people then that takes away the whole hypothetical consideration, There are some individuals that would do well anywhere."
So let's approach it from that angle. Assemble two teams of excellent callers, one from the west and one from the east, and ask each team how they would conduct a specific stand in the east and one in the west. The west team would be comprised of
The Schmid Bros.
The Johnsons
The Heids
Scott Huber
Cal Tayler
Q Wagoner
Gerald Stewart
Murray Burnham
Gerry Blair
Jay Nistetter
Leonard Bosinski
The east team would be
Brent Saxton
George Brint
uummm
wait a minute
uuummmm

Never mind.
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 14, 2005, 03:50 PM:
 
I have made stands in both parts.

I will say this though, I had good teachers to hunt with when I got there Jay, Tyler, Rich, Gary! This made a big diffrence!

My first day there in Az I hunted with Jay, I learned alot the first day real fast! Western hunting is alot diffrent than Eastern hunting! If I would of been on my own, then it would of took me a little longer to get the hang of how things are done there in the West. I think I may have spent more time checking things out and looking for sign, tracks, scat, I know I would of took more time picking out my stands!

When I switched hunting partners things changed, not alot but some. Even western callers do things diffrent, its not all the same.

We just cant run and gun here like they do in the west, or cold call. Well, I cant. Some eastern states have better populations than others.

I dont know how a western caller would call here, I havent got one to come out here yet! and Rich you dont count, you were filming!

I think it would be great to got one of the Western guys here to hunt. It is realy hard to say one way or the other who would do the best. I think who ever hunted the west would kill more coyotes for sure!

Brent

[ February 14, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2005, 04:30 PM:
 

quote:

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I think who ever hunted the west would kill more coyotes for sure! Brent

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The question is....WHY?

Another facet seems to be rearing it's head; namely;

Western coyotes are stupid!

Or, eastern coyotes are smarter, as you prefer.

So, the West appears to have more coyotes.

The Eastern coyotes are more pressured?

Eastern hunters can't shoot through all the trees, and they can't call them into the open.

Which of the above reasons account for the first statement? Any? None of the above?

What do you think? LB
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 14, 2005, 04:56 PM:
 
I wasnt think that way LB. The thing is there are more Coyotes out west.

The more coyotes there are the better the odds of calling them.

I hunted some great spots out there and I hunted some spots that were tough to call. But the areas that had the numbers and didnt have the pressure produced more coyotes. The areas of state trust land that got hammerd were harder to call.

It to me is not a matter of who shoots better or who calls better. Shooting and calling are just part of the hole deal. You haft to have the hole package togeather. And if we are talking about even callers and hunters then I think the west would kill more coyotes, just because there are more targets there and the chances of calling a coyote are better. The numbers there are just better than they are here.

I seen more coyotes there in a day than I would call here in a mounth! And they were easyer to get to, easyer to set up on, no hills, no wind shifts or drifts, stuff like that.

Im not in any way saying that the Western coyotes are dumber than they are here in the East. Alot of factors come into play here that dont there. One of the big factors is number of coyotes.

Brent
 

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Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 14, 2005, 05:06 PM:
 
""I can hunt coyotes while falling asleep, and the successful easterners need to make it into a recreation of the Normandy Landing. I wonder if the easterner, coming to (say) California for the first time is not wasting a lot of time in his ritual? ""

That's a big apart of what I meant in saying that the eastern would be at a disadvantage at the start. Within a couple weeks he'd figure his ways could be streamlined to the point that if the slamfire of success didn't blow his mind, he'd pass up the "taking the easy hunting for granted" westerner.
 

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Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 14, 2005, 05:29 PM:
 
Although I was lucky enough to have someone introduce me to California hunting, if I went in blind, I'd fall back on three things.

Food supply....water.....and cover.
Find water and the other two are usually close by.

Stock tanks....stock pens w/stock.....town dumps.

Maybe it's just the coyotes out west are more concentrated in smaller areas? It would explaine the multiple responses at a stand. Also would explaine why their tougher to find in the east. The three are everywhere you look.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on February 14, 2005, 06:35 PM:
 
Hey Rich, I have a feeling that there are some very good experienced callers in the east who choose to go quietly about their business. I have a feeling that some of them have a territorial thing going on.

I know of a guy in Abilene Tx who would scratch the labels off of his calling tapes and would number them so nobody would discover what he was using. That mind set is probably is a lot more prevalent in the east in a variety of ways because of the intense competition for land access and the desire to get a leg up on the competition.

I am humbled that you would throw me in on your west team but I would not be surprised if the East put together a formidible(is that spelled correctly?)team. They would just have to start talking to one another to find the good ones.

[ February 14, 2005, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 14, 2005, 06:49 PM:
 
If it was a short 2-3 day hunt, the Eastern hunter might come out on top.

But on a season long hunt, I'd have to give my nod to the Western hunter, all things being equal. Not that he can out shoot or out call anyone else.

But when the Western hunter goes back East and gets a bunch of blank stands. He, sooner or later, is going to find a place that looks "Catty" and slip into to a cat hunting mode. After a couple of "Cat stands" that end up with a coyote, he is going to start making all of his stands last for 30 minutes and spend a lot of time scanning the brush for a coyote looking at him.

The Eastern hunter on the other hand, is going to keep doing what he has always been doing. Spending 30 minutes or longer on a stand, but so happy that he killed a coyote in the first 5-10 minutes, he may never realize he doesn't need to stay longer than that. Therefore wasting 20-30 minutes on each stand, when he could be spending his time more productively somewhere down the road.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2005, 08:13 PM:
 
That's some interesting observations, Tim. You may be on to something?

Maybe that's a factor? Western dogs don't mess around, they generally show up in ten minutes or less. Free spirits, not a care in the world.

Eastern coyotes have a little trouble adjusting to all the damned trees! They want to be seen, they really do!

I will grudgingly give all those eastern coyote hunters an A (for effort)

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 15, 2005, 02:15 AM:
 
If we're turning it into East vs. West in teams then we want all our transfers back! Seems anytime someone wants to expand on their passion of predator calling; weather it be making calls, movies or guiding hunts; they all move west. Interesting don't ya think?

And Rich, Gerald is right... there are a lot of good callers in the east that don't share secrets with their hunting buddies, much less sit down to internet forums daily. Most of us are just wannabe's but occasionally we cross paths with someone of "Western Caliber".
 

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Posted by illinois farm boy (Member # 399) on February 15, 2005, 06:11 AM:
 
i have been calling coyotes for 20-25yrs mainly with my brother never been west just in southern illinois all farming area every field has tree borders most of my calling is done within 15 mile from home one of the big differences i think there would be that if i get very far from home i don't know who owns what and therefor couldn't hunt for tresspassing where out west i believe you can hunt almost anywhere with the public land would probably overwhelm me a long shot would 200-300yds if you could take it without a house or farm being in your line of fire another difference would be anytime a coyote breaks cover here he is watching for vehicles or sign on people very cautious at all times i believe the eastern guy would call more coyotes than the western guy just from the standpoint of numbers of coyotes
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 15, 2005, 06:32 AM:
 
I have really enjoyed reading this thread.I have never hunted back East so don't know how difficult coyotes are to call back there.But I have called coyotes out west here for a number of years and can say that all coyotes are not created equal even in the west.I can bet you that the coyotes that are in some of the farm areas here in Utah are every bit as hard to call as any of the coyotes back East.So that theory that Eastern coyotes are Smart,Western coyotes are Dumb just doesn't hold true.I believe it's all about population of coyotes or lack of them,hunting pressure,proximity of houses(people) etc.I have hunted some of the rural areas in utah and I would swear there wasn't a coyote within a hundred miles of where I was hunting,but the sheep were still getting killed by them.I still have had limited success calling there, but nothing like the 9 or 10 coyote days we have had in some of the high population areas in the desert. FWIW GOOD HUNTING C.O

[ February 15, 2005, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 15, 2005, 08:06 AM:
 
I don't know if it safe to say, but I think an above average western hunter probably would be an above average eastern hunter and vice versa.

Dennis

[ February 15, 2005, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 15, 2005, 08:11 AM:
 
Dennis,

My thoughts exactly.
Randy
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 15, 2005, 10:07 AM:
 
I don't think I'd like hunting in the East. I sure hate thinking that I would have to Shake and Howdy all the folks so I could find new places to hunt all over again.

It rains all the time and turns cold and windy. I'd have to buy a whole new wardrobe with one of those funny hats with ear flaps and pile on some additional fat for insulation. Make sure I had antifreeze in the truck, buy studded tires and tick, mosquito and chigger repellant. Freeze to death in a tree stand I have no business in. I quit clumbing trees 35+ years ago. All for just a coyote. Boy. Sounds like a whopping fun time to me.

This is tongue-n-cheek guys. I started out in OK so I know what it's like. I lived in KC and worked on the Missippi for 2 years.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2005, 11:23 AM:
 
And I thought you were being serious, Jay! I'm born in Minnesota, I really do have some idea of the eastern issues.

But, the demographics are moving in this direction; which is not a comforting thought, is it?

All we can do, is do as much as we can to help them, and root for their success and contentment, thereby keeping as many as possible from moving to McNeal, Arizona.
(the Coyote Capital of the free world)

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 15, 2005, 11:41 AM:
 

quote:

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I'm born in Minnesota, I really do have some idea of the eastern issues.

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quote:

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I'd have to buy a whole new wardrobe with one of those funny hats with ear flaps

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They are one of the warmest thing you ever want to wear, especially if you are a little thin in the hair.
 

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Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 15, 2005, 04:26 PM:
 
Is that called being "follicley challenged"???
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 15, 2005, 05:13 PM:
 
"I don't know if it safe to say, but I think an above average western hunter probably would be an above average eastern hunter and vice versa."

Dennis

EXACTLY!
I made a parody of a list of respective well-known callers from the east and west to illustrate the point that westerners have been calling coyotes since the early forties and a large number of callers have evolved to almost celebrity status. The men I listed have gained reknown by their achievments and with such callers and authors as Jim Dougherty, Phil Simonsky, Slim Pederson, and Don Laubach have authored a number of well researched books on the subject of calling. These men are willing to share their knowledge with other callers, apparently accomplished eastern callers have not arrived at that state of grace as of yet. The Tx, Az, and CA clubs were taking astounding numbers of coyotes before there was ever a confirmed sighting of a coyote in Pa.

The eastern callers are playing catchup and instead of learning the ropes with gullible unexploited populations they are learning to hunt a phenotype that is expanding it's range in high human population densities and lives it's life on high alert having to contend, on a daily basis, with deer hunters, crow hunters, woodchuck hunters and every pickup with a rifle in it.
It may please some to know that western coyotes are rapidly evolving to that state. Twenty years ago in Az. it was unthinkable to blank on a day of calling. Blank days are becoming more common. A friend of Jay's called on ****** *********** land within the last week and called in 17 coyotes on 5 stands. That was fairly common 20 years ago, now in is remarkable. In 1974 80,000 coyotes were taken in Ca. by hunters. In 1974 in Pa. coyotes were only a rumor. In 1997, the last year for which I have harvest numbers, 47,000 coyotes were taken in Az. by hunters. That is still about 4 times the estimated population of coyotes in Pa.
Having met several eastern callers, I know for a fact that there are some talented and knowledgeable callers back there and they will only get better. When asked what the "next level" is I have to say learning everything about the animals behavior especially it's sense of security.
Reread Byron's 2 posts on the "eastern" thread. Very good.
 

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Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 15, 2005, 05:24 PM:
 
I grabbed this from the Pennsylvania game commission website

quote:

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Once an animal automatically associated with the West, coyotes now live in every state east of the Mississippi River. Pennsylvania's mid 1990s population numbered 20,000 to 30,000, and still appeared to be slowly growing.

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2005, 06:00 PM:
 
Hodgen, I can't even accept those estimates, since I think it has to involve a lot of guessing? Coyote population estimates, anywhere, on a statewide basis, seems more like guessing, to me? They could easily be 50% off?

Rich, I don't know what 1ndian re$ervation you are talking aout, AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO TELL ME. But, those numbers are certainly believable....in some places with which I am familiar. All those *s, must be a glitch in the program?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 15, 2005, 06:56 PM:
 
Gee thanks Leonard. Next time we go camping, I'll have to show you some tricks I've learned using live skunks.

Unfortunately, the last two years, I've been running into the same problem here, that drove me out of Indiana.

I keep running out of coyotes to kill before the season is over.
 

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Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 16, 2005, 11:21 AM:
 
Leonard,

Here in Pennsylvania the game commission works closely with the fur-takers to gather data on harvests. This is why we finally got a bobcat season just a few years ago.

Each year the GC sends out what they call a fur-taker survey, in which the license holder records his take for the year. Which is based on the honor system. They are pretty persistant at having you return this survey. One year I didn't send it in, the second one came in the mail and I blew that one off too. Wasn't long after my phone was ringing.

From the years 1998 to 2002 coyote harvest was listed by the GC at 11,652 - 8,797 - 10,160 - 12,363 - 11,444 respectively. Furtaker license sales for the same years run right about 30,000 for an average.

Now we have 750,000 deer hunters hitting the woods who'll try and shoot a coyote on sight. The GC has no available coyote data to go by because reporting it isn't required. I could easily see the deer hunters taking at least the same amount of coyotes, if not more, than the furtakers.

Coyote population appears on the increase, although not fast paced, so we are not stabilizing the population.

Looking at this, I could believe PA carries a coyote population exceeeding those numbers listed from the mid-90's. If they came out today and said they suspect a population between 30,000 - 40,000, my opinion would be they are not far off.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2005, 01:09 PM:
 
Okay, I accept that. But, what relationship is there between harvest and population?

As an example, California, for years had a casual attitude about the number of lions. A figure of 3,000, more or less was taken as graven in stone by the bunny huggers, and used to promote the idea that lions were in serious decline. So, ever since, we have a questionable figure, never questioned as a baseline, and yet, for those that actually DO have a good idea of the population, their data is dismissed because of motive, ie: we want to resume hunting.

We have competing data, but there has never been a legit survey, and lions are extremely difficult to count, so the thinking is: better to error on the safe side. If a few people are killed, that's a small price to pay, in order to preserve these magnificent beasts.

All well and good, but counting wild, free ranging animals is not a science, unless they are deer or something equally easy to spot from a helicopter.

In short, given the woods and forests of Pennsylvania, I'm just not convinced that the people know the best way to accurately count coyotes. My opinion.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 16, 2005, 02:55 PM:
 

quote:

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But, what relationship is there between harvest and population?

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Well I somewhat agree with you. I don't think there is a rock solid way to get a 100% accurate account of a free roaming population. So you have to work with the best data you got.

But to try and give a somewhat logically answer to your question, let's take bobcats as an example.

PA is broken down into zones concerning wildlife. Bobcats until about 5 years ago were 100% protected. Through surveys, the trappers reported back to the GC how many bobcats were actually caught in sets and released in each zone. After a few years of data, they issued via lottery, a minimal amount of bobcat tags.

Looking at harvest figures from the succesful cat chasers, and again data reported back via fur-taker survey of accidental trap/released cats, no decline was seen.

The next season an increased number of tags were issued, then harvest and survey data was again looked at. No decline in stats.....increase tags the next year.

And that's the way its been going since the first season of the year 2000. Of course that is the short version. You have imput/data from GC biologists, field personell, and a host of other sources I am sure. I guess one could say it's not the best "population" formula. Probably a better word would be "effecting population".

But mixing in the biology known about bobcats, they can get a pretty good idea of a ball park population needed to support such findings scientifically.

I would imagine the same could be said for coyotes. Maybe one of the animal control specialists can chime in here, and tell what percentage of harvest it takes to stabilize a coyote population. I have heard figures of 70%, but it is not my field of expertise. But since our coyote harvests appear to be on the increase, we havn't reached that point yet. So I would assume GC biologists could in fact come up with a formula to get a fairly close figure on population supported by the data they have.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 16, 2005, 03:20 PM:
 
Again, my cynicism. Why trust the professional to not have a motive. Like the planted lynx hairs, (you remember that fiasco?) these warden types might do a fair and accurate survey, and then again, maybe they are as biased as any other group with an agenda? As has been mentioned elsewhere, garbage in, garbage out. Educated guesses, at best. But, still guesses. I'm being contrary, but it seems to me that the numbers could be off by 50%, and who's to challenge? Better yet, who cares, right?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on February 16, 2005, 04:36 PM:
 
Well I would tend to agree about agendas.
Now if we were talking deer numbers in PA.
THOSE have an agenda at the moment...sheesh!!!!
But coyotes and bobcats are down the list of important stuff, so I'd imagine not much funny business is going on. And from what I see in my surroundings, I'd tend to believe those numbers.

But you are right.....I doubt many people care in the big picture.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 17, 2005, 03:33 AM:
 
"I'm with the government, I'm here to help"
 

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Posted by Kiyiyotie (Member # 574) on February 17, 2005, 09:06 AM:
 
jrbhunter, what do you think? i see you're from indiana. how many coyotes do you kill while calling (not trapping or snaring) in indiana and do you think you would call up and kill more coyotes in the west than you do in the east? since you brought up the hypothetical, i was just curious on your own experience and success rate and how you think that would stack up west of the big muddy.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 17, 2005, 10:38 AM:
 
Boy that looks familiar.

My own experience tells me that I would probably be better off staying here in the east because I suck with a rifle. Anything requiring long range accuracy is going to handicap me until I get the time and equipment to concentrate on my riflery skills... that AND wake up with a little more natural talent.

Currently I expect to call and kill anywhere from 6 to 10 coyotes each season Mid-December through February is my calling season. I do a little hunting in the summer, although it is more productive number-wise I don't enjoy the heat. (Another reason I'd rather stay east )

Either I am getting better or the population of coyotes is getting higher because this year has offered me more opportunities than ever before. Just last Saturday I called in five coyotes on one stand... thats a record for me and my crew of hunting buddies. I like to think that some flat-open terrain in the west would make it easier to get shots off. I head north every chance I get just to call some of that ground and seem to have better luck getting coyotes in the crosshairs up that way.
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 17, 2005, 11:54 AM:
 
Hypothetically speaking I believe if we sent an excellent western guy east and an excellent eastern guy west for a week I believe that neither would do as well in comparison to the other if they were hunting at home. In other words I think that both would fall short of the precedent set by the other in their own back yard. Both would be successful, but there is something to be said about knowing what the coyotes are doing or will do and guessing what they are doing or will do based on experience from a different pocket of coyotes.
 

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Posted by Kiyiyotie (Member # 574) on February 17, 2005, 12:08 PM:
 
JRBHUNTER,

quote:

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Either I am getting better or the population of coyotes is getting higher because this year has offered me more opportunities than ever before.

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so how many have you shot this season? just trying to get a handle on your success rates in indiana. and what looks familiar???

[ February 18, 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Kiyiyotie ]
 

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