quote:

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. As callers, wew pretty much know where coyotes are, or at least have them pegged close enough that they can come to us.

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quote:

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For a caller, or at least for me, I would beat a guy over the head if he lit up a siren as we exited the truck to make a stand.

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quote:

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Rich, what do you think the meaning of yip-howls is to a coyote? Is it a territorial announcement/warning. Is it meant to say "hey guys I'm back? Or maybe "I'm here where are you. Tell me more about it and why it illicits responses.

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Group yip-howls serve several functions including territorial claim/declarations and passive defense. That means that the group yip-howl announces to all within hearing that a particular area is occupied by a resident group and serves the purpose of reducing intrusions by competitors. This is the vocalization used by researchers to locate. It is the vocalization that elicits a vocal response more than any other. The lone howl elicits an approach response more than any other. Kathleen Fullmer recorded a 47% vocal response ,during all seasons,to the group yip-howl during her two year study. However they would drive to one of two vantage points, stop and set up their equipment and then broadcast the howls. Broadcasting while moving in the general direction of the coyotes is much more effective. Which makes sense if, from the coyotes perspective, they hear a group of coyotes heading toward them vocally claiming the territory.
 

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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on August 25, 2005, 07:45 AM:
 
Don't waste your money on a siren. If your in the sport for shooting coyotes then call them in. If your in it to control coyote populations, go ahead and get a siren and a couple of dogs and hunt the early summer months. If you locate a den smoke the pups, and then return in a couple of days and whine like a pup. Chances are she'll want to milk cause she hurts and you can kill her too. Its not a sport doing it this way but it does work.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 25, 2005, 09:37 AM:
 
Barndog,
I'm not trying to nit pick, but I would be curious as to where you are getting your information on denning and coyotes and how to kill them. I would say that you have been quite mis-informed to say the least.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 25, 2005, 10:31 AM:
 
I know we are going to have a polite conversation; aren't we?
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 25, 2005, 11:07 AM:
 
Cal is always polite.
I hope Barndog responds. This will be educational.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 25, 2005, 11:12 AM:
 
I'm always polite Leonard. Well, most of the time. It just riles me a little when someone picks apart a style of hunting that they know little or nothing about. Killing coyotes off of a den deal can be as challenging of hunting as there is. Especially because most of the coyotes we deal with are in sheep country and are the most persecuted coyotes on the planet. There is someone trying to kill them one way or another from the day they are born. They get smart or die. I guess it's not defined as "sport" hunting, but in dealing with highly educated coyotes, I would say that it is very challenging at the least. After spending a few days trying to find and kill some of these coyotes, I think BarnDogs opinions might change drastically.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 25, 2005, 12:19 PM:
 
For simplicity, let's break this down, sentence by sentence.

quote:

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#1Don't waste your money on a siren.

#2If your in the sport for shooting coyotes then call them in.

#3If your in it to control coyote populations, go ahead and get a siren and a couple of dogs and hunt the early summer months.

#4If you locate a den smoke the pups, and then return in a couple of days and whine like a pup.

#5Chances are she'll want to milk cause she hurts and you can kill her too.

#6Its not a sport doing it this way but it does work.

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quote:

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If you ever walk up to a sprung trap that a coyote has crapped on, you will get the picture pretty damn fast.

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Isn't that about the most aggravating thing?

Last winter, I had a coyote hit me like that 3 nights in a row on the same trap. I picked him up on a pee post 50 yards away the fourth night. ( Or at least I never found a turd on the trap after catching that one )
 

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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on August 26, 2005, 09:44 PM:
 
Tim, that is aggravating. You have to wonder how the heck the coyote can keep doing that, even when you move the trap back, or set two traps at the same set. You have to admire the coyote a little bit for that. Todd.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on August 27, 2005, 03:42 AM:
 
Good thread guys. Let me jump in here at the risk of possible showing you how little I know about sirens and denning. My interest in this thread started with Barndog’s post and intensified with Cal’s first post for different reasons.

On one occasion on a July stand some years back I had a coyote come in to our Coyote\Grey Fox tape and it looked like it was searching frantically for the pup distress it heard (at least that is what I assumed). The coyote was looking from side to side turning its head sharply while racing almost in circles as it circled us. Its pelt looked wet and spiked and its ears were laid back flat.

It was Barndog’s comment # 5 (on the Leonard list for debate post) that made me wonder if that was possibly a reason for that behavior. Can Rich or anyone offer any perspective on that?

In the context of what had been posted earlier in the discussion, I actually thought Barndog’s post could have been viewed as a summarization. That is why Cal’s first post made me go whoa…”where did that come from” I murmured. I did not feel that Barndog’s post deserved such an in your face response…honestly. Cal, your first response was about as diplomatic as a Michael Savage come back. If you do not know who he is then we will leave it at that because I really want to be your pal not your adversary.

Put a question mark behind Barndog’s statements Cal and give me your response to them so I can learn more from your experience. I need to know why you think his statements are misleading. I suspect that what may be happening to Barndog is what happens in many attempts to communicate in this medium. Misperceptions abound.

Leonard, I vaguely remember a conversation, that you and I had on our outing, about train whistles or possibly the frequency from wheels on the track that made coyotes howl every time the train hit a certain stretch of track. Does that ring a bell or not? It may have been with someone else. The jest of the conversation was that some sirens work and others don’t and some train whistles work and others don’t? It would seem to me that if it is a frequency, much like a dog whistle works, then they would respond regardless of when or where. Does it hurt their ears or is it so pleasing that it sends them into an orgasm that evokes an audible response? Rich?
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 27, 2005, 09:05 AM:
 
Gerald and all,
I guess I didn't realize that my post was so "in anyones face" and I apologize if thats the way it came out. I just assume that Barndog is regurgitating something someone told him, and has little or no experience with, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'll try to touch on the subjects and see if I can make sense of what I think. (I usually can't type and make it sound like what I would really want to say).

1. Don't waste your money on a siren.
I pretty much summed up my thoughts on that one in my first post on this thread. It's a great tool for some and an unnessecary tool for others.

2. If your in the sport for shooting coyotes then call them in.

Well, of course, but isn't it easier to call them in if you know they are there? As far as denning and business go, location is everything.

3.If you are in it to control coyote populations, go ahead and get a siren and a couple of dogs and hunt the early summer months.

I did,I do, and get paid to do so. But in reality, why are you hunting coyotes? For the fur? for the challenge? for the fun? Fur is pretty well out these days, so I assume it is for sport. But alot of guys hunt summer months for sport too. They just don't bother to go mop up the pups, or care if they clean up all the old ones, they shoot what comes and move on. Not a problem, and thats the difference between them and me. I try my best to clean up everybody in each particular family group, especially if I think they are causing problems somewhere.

4. If you locate a den and smoke the pups, and then return in a couple of days and whine like a pup.
5.Chances are she'll want to milk cause she hurts and you can kill her too.
6.It's not a sport doing it this way but it does work.


Here is where I think the mis-information lies, so bear with me. First cardinal rule of denning, never, never kill the pups until you have the old ones, or are convinced that you have spilled the old ones so bad that they are never coming back. If a setup is a total wreck, and I don't get the old ones killed I will not go take the pups. I will give them a day or two and let them come back and pick the pups up. They will probably move them, but I can find them again usually. Some guys that like to trap, will sometimes take the pups, and try to trap the old ones. I have very little success with this method. But if you take those pups, you are basically turning the old ones footloose to do and go wherever they want and they become increasingly harder to pin down to a location to trap or call them.
If they have pups they are easier to find and kill, period.
Now, here's the other slight misconception. Ocassionally you can go back to a den that you have taken and kill an old one but if you have tromped all over, smoked the den and killed the pups, those old ones usually don't hang around. In the first 24 hours of so they will stay around and maybe make a pass or two by to see if theres a pup alive. They smell you, smoke, your dogs, etc. and will rarely spend any time there. They may camp somewhere close for a day or so and keep an eye on things, but if you are going to try to get back in there, they are going to be somewhere where they can watch things, and it is damn hard to get anywhere close to there with out getting busted.
As far as puppy sounds, they work great, while the pups are alive. I have a pup distress sound that I recorded that is deadly in these situations. Some others are finding out how deadly it is. Bryon used it alot in his new video and has told me via e-mail that it is one of the best sounds he has ever used. I can tell on the video that alot of the coyotes called in were denned pairs. You are correct Gerald that you can get some unreal reactions with those sounds in the right time and place, but once those pups are dead, everything becomes less effective. But occasionally it will still work. Barndog makes it sound as if you can just stroll up to a smoked den, whine a little and have the old bitch run over you. Nothing sporting about it, she will come and sit in you lap every time and anyone that can whine can do it.
And as for lactation. That is a good theory I guess, but not really true. First off, that only applies to about a month of the denning season, as soon as the little sharp teeth start coming, the pups are eating regurgitated food from the parents. Mom weans them fast. I would say that rarely do they milk more than 4 weeks and never more than six.
But regardless of that, I have had some screw up deals while she was milking and if she has played the game before, or the dogs put a little too much heat to her, or if you miss a rifle shot that was a little too close for her comfort, she is totally capable of leaving and never coming back. I have seen them do it. I have left pups alive for them and had them just never come back. I have went back a week later, to see if they came back to move the pups and had the pups still be there, and no adult had ever came back. No tracks of an adult, and starving whining puppies cruising around the hole trying to get something to eat. IF they have good teeth, they will cannibalize the first one to die and survive a few more days. I will always go ahead and smoke the pups in that situation always.
I am just trying to point out a few misconceptions and possibilities of what can happen. I wasn't trying to insult anyone, even though I felt a little insulted by someone telling me that what I do isn't fair or sporting. I have spent days on a particular wild bunch of coyotes trying to get things right to get them killed, and still not had things happen right. It happens to everyone that does this. It is rarely a slam dunk deal. Ask Higgins, I had two bunches located (I thought) for some easy film work, and had Scott Huber with us, and we didn't get either bunch to work the way they were supposed to, and had to leave them be. Later I went back and got in different locations and killed them. I understand that most people wouldn't consider it sport hunting, but also it isn't just wholesale simple slaughter either.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 27, 2005, 09:37 AM:
 
There you go, Cal. Excellent post. I have to tell you that I had the same type of reaction as Gerald. While Barndog may not have been aware of the effect of his comments, I suspect that you were also not aware of the hostility contained in your response. Of course, that's my impression, and others may not have reacted the same as I, to either posts.

Now, the thing I didn't say, above, when I broke it down to six sentences, is; when dealing with coyotes, dang near anything is possible, and Barndog may have been speaking from direct experience.

In other words, he did something and it seemed to produce the desired effect, but he had a little luck. The ADC people may agree that it's not the best way of handling things. I don't know? As I have said before, I'm strictly a recreational hunter. I'm just trying to leave some wiggle room on both sides so we can keep the discusion civil, as opposed to what my sixth sense was telling me where it was headed.

I do appreciate your reply, it makes a lot of sense.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on August 27, 2005, 12:29 PM:
 
Gerald really hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the fragileness of this medium. The stuff that winds up here in black and white is really inadequate to completely get our message across. Totally devoid of smiling faces, gritted teeth, questioning eyes, or clenched fists.

I know for a fact that I've posted some things and looked at them a day later and thought "that really looked sappy", or had my point totally misinterpreted.

I read Cal's post and didn't consider it too over the top. There was obviously a difference of opinion/experiences, accompanied by a clear challenge to share.

The first sentence softened things a bit. The second was kind of a Roosevelt "talk(walk) softly and carry a big stick" kinda thing. A good expample of why a thick skin should be mandatory for participation on a board like this.

And if that isn't as clear as mud to all I'm going to throw the fit from hell if anyone doesn't see it my way. As I typed it in black and white, devoid of facial expression, and body language.

Maybe one of those Graemlins things shown at the bottom of the page should include gritted teeth and clenched fists.

Bottom line, I've been playing around these boards too much and too long to put too strict of an interpretation on anything. I understand Leonards concern about where it is/was heading because of his position here - he has to pull off a moderated "Rodney King statement" sort of thing. Gerald is a wise man in preemptively pointing out the weakness of this medium.

Cal is a patent and wise man in having responded in a constructive manner.

And I'm just commenting because this is one of my major frustrations, interests, and fascinations with this form of communication. Besides, I'm really trying to put off mowing the damned yard as long as possible.....
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on August 27, 2005, 04:21 PM:
 
Looking back on it I'm glad Barndog threw his two cents out there... Cal's excellent explanation of his viewpoints were very interesting and made for some good reading. It's like Leonard said once, sometimes you have to say certain things to smoke some of these guys out into sharing their thoughts. I didn't think anyone went over the top or anybody got their toes stepped on.

I my opinion some of the best discussion is when you get two or several guys debating a topic that gets "slightly" heated. Most of the guys around here are pretty much no the BS type. They call it like they see it.

Leonard you have these guys trained well.

[ August 27, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 27, 2005, 04:57 PM:
 
I keep going back and looking at that post and the way I read it to myself in my head is not what you guys are apparently reading to your selves. Computers and typed words are hard to get the real meaning of. Barndog probably didn't mean that you will get the exact same response all the time and that it is simple to do, but that is the way it came off to me. And I obviously came off wrong.
But unless you see alot of asterisks, I probably didn't want it to sound as bad is it looks.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 27, 2005, 05:23 PM:
 
No Sir. I agree with Lonny. Cal, you have laid your cards on the table, and it works for me.

Barndog may be out of town, but he seems like a recreational caller? I hope he doesn't take exception to any subsequent commentary. I believe him to be a straight shooter.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 27, 2005, 06:47 PM:
 
You can't apologize for something you didn't do Cal. I wouldn't worry about your delivery a bit, you stated the truth, in a simple easy to understand manner. It's my opinion that these boards winnow the chaff from the wheat,if a guy can't take the truth, or experience of others and gets a boo boo....oh well.
Your response was tame to my mind, or course I have a tendency to be a bit more abbrasive when I smell bullshit:)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 27, 2005, 09:14 PM:
 
Yes, right, a tame response. So says Mr Charm, himself.

just kidding.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 28, 2005, 12:50 PM:
 
I went back and read Cal's posts again and still don't see anything to fuss about. Not even a tempest in a teapot. The problem is probably caused by Vic and Scott not having unloaded on some poor shmuck lately and stomping a vitual mudhole in the middle of his cyber butt while the rest of us stand on the sidelines and gasp and try to avert our eyes.
I've heard that Dorothee dope slapped Vic into line some time ago, but where the heck is Scott?
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on August 28, 2005, 01:07 PM:
 
Hey I'm back. I went out of town to visit good friends in Austin. I was looking forward to getting to this thread to see if I had opened a can of worms or not(didn't want to). I suspected that one or both had been the victim of misperception with me possibly being one of the mispercievers.

Cals response was what kept a potential war of words from occuring. I have read him and respected his experience for some time and truly would love to be out with him so I could learn from him. His calm response unfortunately is not the common as much as the chest beating defensive response that many will chose to use. Thanks for the explaination Cal.

Now for Leonard and Rich....you guys have avoided my question for you.

Leonard, am I off base on my memory about the train conversation with you....and Rich...I was looking forward to any perspective you may have on the frequency issues.

[ August 28, 2005, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 28, 2005, 01:16 PM:
 
Gerald sorry it took awhile. You said

quote:

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The jest of the conversation was that some sirens work and others don’t and some train whistles work and others don’t? It would seem to me that if it is a frequency, much like a dog whistle works, then they would respond regardless of when or where. Does it hurt their ears or is it so pleasing that it sends them into an orgasm that evokes an audible response? Rich?

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Gerald, this is a topic that I discuss with every knowledgeable coyote researcher that I can con into talking with me. The gist of the discussions is:
Coyotes are among the most vocal of North American mammals because their very complex and varied social structure is dependant upon their vocalizations. Howling sessions among pack members are essential to bonding of the members and affirmation of status within the pack. This is important to the social structure because it takes BOTH parents and often times an entire pack to successfully raise a litter of coyote pups. Subsequently coyotes' response to certain howls and other sounds of a given frequency and amplitude are involuntary and instinctual and according to Major Boddiker are tripped by a chemical released in the brain. I firmly believe that this is one reason that they will howl in response to certain sounds.
(This was my usual LONG way of saying that they don't think about it, they just do it.)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 28, 2005, 01:18 PM:
 
Gerald, didn't mean to ignore you. I know we were around railroad tracks all night and have a faint recollection of it, but that's all?

Besides, you slept all the way back to Orange County while I mostly talked to myself, if that's the occasion you are thinking about?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 28, 2005, 02:36 PM:
 
Rich Higgins,
I once had a dog that would howl when I played my harmonica. I figured that he just enjoyed the music, but other folks told me that my playing was hurting the dog's ears. Why do coyotes howl at train whistles and such? Your guess is just as good as mine.
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on August 28, 2005, 03:22 PM:
 
Rich H, Thanks for relating that. I have heard that when a coyote group howls, a certain amount of time has to pass before they can do it again. I wonder if that has something to do with the chemicals in the brain?

Does that mean that when you locate a pack with a certain sound that evokes a response they will not answer again,say...an hour later?

Please don't take that personally Leonard. I am sure it was because you had me up all hours of the night and not that you were boring me.

Rich, I have seen dogs sing to quite a variety of musical instruments and people's singing. I have a friend in Austiin that can get her dog to sing to her accordian. It's a hoot to watch.
 

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Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on August 28, 2005, 04:06 PM:
 
Ok, ok,....The God's truth...Here it is...This thread is the reason I turned my computer on today.

Last night, at exactly 1:15, my Lab cut loose with the most beautiful, 'coyote', interrogation howl I've ever heard. My wife jabs me and starts in...'Is that Choc..Is that Choc...something's wrong...'

I'm out of bed and half dressed when I hear, off in the distance, another dog howl. Up the stairs I go while my wife is dressing and chattering (she doesn't have a clue).

I come down the stairs and we meet at the front door....and she went off like a fire-cracker...'YOU"RE NOT GOING TO TURN THAT SIREN ON!!!...ARE YOU STUPID?' I can now hear two dogs howling, in the distance.

I grab my truck keys and head out while she's ranting (this was last night and she's still pissed). I drive down the street, following the sound, every once in a while giving a rip with the siren. After about eight blocks, I have no less than six howls going. One was a great group howl from a bunch of German Shorthairs in a chain-link kennel.

Then I noticed the lights...Others were getting up to join the hunt...It was cool. Then I heard the other sirens...and remembered that 'house lights and dogs' were a...bad thing. People were coming out on their porches...(Jeese, I just got a chill)....About then I started 'Quick-Studying'. I hauled ass for home.

Five minutes later, as I was asking my neighbor what was going on, two cop cars passed the house, red and blue lights a-flashing....

My wife is gone to the store. I think I'll go out and get my siren after I sign off. It's under the back seat in my truck behind a wad of camo clothes.

Bud
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 28, 2005, 04:39 PM:
 
OK guys here's my experiences with locating with both a siren and a recording CT161, which is the best locator sound as far as getting a response. I have kept this mostly to myself, and would not post it somewhere else where every T,D, and Harry would run buy a siren, but for you guys, what the hell. First of all, there are numerous brands of sirens. All the guys that use them (the old gov trappers etc.)will kill for an old Federal Signal brand, which, by the way is what I have. I have the siren box, that was origianlly in a police car or fire engine, mounted inside my pickup. It is connected to a 100 watt speaker also specially made for a siren. The magnet weighs about 6 pounds. The system is also connected to my cassette player by way of the radio and PA system.
But here are the results, as I see them day to day.
Usually I will start with the siren, I wait several minutes, and may get a response anywhere for immediatly to several minutes later. If I get no response, I'll switch to the tape and try again. And they may or may not respond. But usually, they will respond to one or the other.
But it is never the same and you never know which will trigger them that day. In times of low barometric pressure responses are harder to come by. Don't ask me why, cause I don't know.
As far as them not being able to howl again, hogwash, They can if they want. I have located a bunch, walked in on them and had them fire again to my howls 10 minutes later, or 30 minutes later, or whenever they damn well please. But there again, sometimes they don't. It's all up to them. But I don't buy Boddickers story there, not because Boddicker said it, but becasue I have seen them howl again whenever they want. I'll bet some of you guys have too.
Anyway, my theory is, they will howl when they want, at what they want, and if they want. I haven't seen the magic bullet yet that will cause them to howl every time. And lots of smiley faces!!!
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on August 28, 2005, 05:31 PM:
 
Out in West Texas and in the Panhandle most of ranchers use sirens to call their cattle when feeding. Through the winter they will feed most of these pastures every day and I believe the coyotes, over time, stop howling at it as often. Sometimes the coyotes howl back sometimes they don't. It seems though that at night you almost always get a reponce with the sirens. I would say upward of 75-80% of the time. I've also heard trains light them up as well, not the train whistle, just the trains sqeaking wheels and the tracks. I have a place in Wood county I hunt where they almost always go off to the trains. Must be something to the frequency thing that triggers this. There are some call makers that have researched this same deal with getting turkeys to shock gobble. One company even makes a dog whistle like call that gives you the ability to adjust it until you get results. It would be intersting to see if these dog whistles would work with coyotes.

Cal,

JC Whitney has the ones(Not sure of the brand name)that we used to use. They would continue to wind up until shut off. They were extreeeemly loud and would wind up pretty high pretty fast. We would let them wind up pretty good and could almost always get them lit up in several direction. Don't do much night hunting any more and haven't used a siren in several years. I just might go get me another. If nothing else I can have fun like Bud did . I don't think I would use one in the daytime (Much) though for the same reason you mentioned earlier (getting their heads up before I'm in position). I also think it would be faily unreliable in getting a reponce.

Byron

[ August 28, 2005, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 28, 2005, 06:38 PM:
 
First Boddiker did not state that coyotes cannot howl but once,which is not true. They can howlas often and as long as they wish. Boddiker said that certain frequencies and amplitudes trip that trigger that releases a chemical in the brain, which should not be too hard for an intelligent human to understand since that intelligent human trips triggers that release chemicals in his brain every single day. Sights, sounds, smells and visuals will release hormones into the brain that elicit physical responses. (When was the last time a chemical released in your brain that made you howl at a Playmate Centerfold?) Pheremones and adrenaline (chemicals)will do the same.
Why is it difficult to believe such is true of the coyote?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 28, 2005, 07:08 PM:
 
Easy, Tiger. We agree. I think some of us understood that was a bogus statement regardless of who said it.

Still, the question I have of Cal is when and why he is doing this with the tape and the siren? It sounds more like ADC work during denning, to me. I almost never have to resort to sirens or locater tapes because as many people know, they MAY respond, (like Cal said) or maybe they won't?

I pretty much expect a coyote to approach a howl, but not a siren. However, if I could locate one of those old chrome fender sirens from a Fire Chief's sedan, I'd buy it. Never hurts to have one more tool in the shed.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 28, 2005, 07:29 PM:
 
Rich,
I'll have to see if I can find the text, I doubt if I still have it, but I think it was one of his call manuals in which I remember Bodicker saying that after a coyote howls, that they can't howl again. He also stated that he had actually watched them try to reply and that they couldn't. I'm not sure why he came to that theory, but I do remember him writing it. But he is a pretty good beaver trapper, so I've heard.
Leonard,
I rarely use a locator in the winter, but it is great asset when it works and you are looking for a litter of pups and some old ones, because if you catch them at "home" that is where they are going to be when you get there

[ August 28, 2005, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on August 28, 2005, 07:31 PM:
 
Damn Rich, your wife turn you down tonight.

My comment about coyotes not being able to howl for a period of time was generated from a conversation with an individual other than Major. This other guy said that the time was about an hour before they would howl again. I tend to believe as Rich does they howl whenever they want. I have had them go off in a same general area fairly close together sometimes but I am not able to determine if it is the same group or not.

Here Cal,
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 28, 2005, 07:58 PM:
 
I've always got stuck with dickheads for neighbors. I need a neighbor like Bud, he sounds like a lot of fun!
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on August 28, 2005, 09:22 PM:
 
Cal,..If,boddiker wrote that,he probably wishes he could go back and retract what he wrote...I'm sure he knows better than that.

Bud,i went back and read that again...You sure know how to make a guy laugh
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 28, 2005, 09:51 PM:
 
Tim, one of those dickhead neighbors wrote that post with my name on it.
Second, I read what I wrote after reading Leonard's and Gerald's comments.
Crap!!! The tone of that post is not what was in my head when I wrote it. I signed off before finishing and completeing my thoughts. Gerald and others just covered this phenom in another thread. Oh well.
Cal, you are right. Major did make the statement that after a coyote has howled it cannot do it again for 20-3- minutes. (Chapter IV , Talking to Coyotes with the Song Dog)
I'll be talking to Major tomorrow and ask him about that statement.
I'll ask Jaeger also since he observes one hundred coyotes at close range on a regular basis.
I know from my personal experience that a group of coyotes can yip-howl for several minutes and then bark-threat howl at me for two hours straight. They can repeat that at least twice through the course of the day. I know that at least one coyote near my home can lone howl every 30 seconds to a minute for 45 minutes straight.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 28, 2005, 10:19 PM:
 
Okay, Rich. All is forgiven.

I don't need any verification for my own/ Uh, Let me put it a little more tactfully, if I may?

I would be very interested to read both the good Doctor's, as well as Major's reply.

Good hunting. LB

PS, very interesting conversation this afternoon. I didn't know that Anna has a twin sister.?

[ August 28, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on August 29, 2005, 06:44 AM:
 
Man ...am I looking forward to the talk around the campfire!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 29, 2005, 07:07 AM:
 
Cal Taylor,
Yep, I read the same instruction book, and old Boddicker certainly did say that once a coyote howls, it can not howl again for several minutes. I forget how many minutes his statement claimed. I hope that I can find that manual so I can scan that page and post a photo of it here. At any rate, he DID say that and it is just as wrong now as it was back then. LOL
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 29, 2005, 07:13 AM:
 
Rich Higgins wrote:

Cal, You are right

You guys all seen it, and I am going to print it, frame an 8x10, and make several wallet size copies to carry with me to show anyone I please!!!
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 29, 2005, 08:14 AM:
 
Cal, you are ALWAYS right.
That is one reason you are my hero and when I grow up I want to be just like you.

Maybe a little better lookin'.
maybe a little smarter.
maybe a little richer.
maybe a little better caller.
maybe a little more polite.

shucks, I guess I want to be Oprah Winfrey.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 29, 2005, 08:48 AM:
 
Higgins, you going to let Cal off, just like that? What about the mean stuff he wrote to Barndog? I bet that man has his feelings hurt and is not coming back?

Another thing. Cal, did you notice how "cross" Higgins sounded in his previous comment? He unloaded on his friends, with a very rude attitude. Can't just let that pass.

Shameful disrespect, I don't know who's to blame?

Good hunting. LB

Higgins sounds so looney I think(?) he wants to wear a dress! Some kind of latent desire for fat black womun.

edit: Not that there is anything wrong with that. I have been told it's the best ride you will ever....never mind!

[ August 29, 2005, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 29, 2005, 08:55 AM:
 
I've heard several Boddiker stories over the years, some good and some not so good, but my favorite, and a true sign of genius that I don't possess, was a story O'Gorman told me about the Major trapping problem beaver in a ritzy community in Colorado. He explained to the people of the communtity (mostly tree hugger types) that for a certain nominal amount (I don't have the exact figures) but say $50 per beaver that he would eliminate (exterminate) the problem beaver...

But for an exorbinate figure, say several hundred dollars per beaver, he would relocate them to a pristine wilderness area, and to top it all off, they could go along, take their whole family, make a picnic out of it, and release the beavers back into the wild. Of course, the vast majority chose to spare the beavers lives and "transplant" them to another area. That was genius.

On the other hand, there are still sheep men in Natrona county in Wyoming, that would possibly bend the good Majors nose if they got a chance, but that is another story...
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 29, 2005, 09:00 AM:
 
On another note.....

Any man that wishes to be a fat black woman makes me nervous. That is Silence of the Lambs type crazy. Yesterday, I was checking on plane tickets to Tucson, today, I am thinking about alarm systems for my house, and guard dogs.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 29, 2005, 09:07 AM:
 
I have also heard tell of some outrageous statements made by.... the same person. Some completely forgettable.

Good hunting. LB

quote:

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exorbinate figure

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you into fat chicks too?

[ August 29, 2005, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on August 29, 2005, 09:19 AM:
 
I believe it is in the instruction book for the songdog and i believe that it is 20 minutes. Great post guys! I've seen Cals set up it's nice but i have to agree that nothing is the silver bullet that gets them to howl everytime!
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 29, 2005, 09:23 AM:
 
From Talking to Coyotes with the Songdog

#1 LONE HOWL OR TERRITORIAL CALL

"When coyotes hear this call and decide to respond,roughly 50% will howl back. Research has also determined that if a coyote has howled within 20 minutes of your howl, it cannot respond because of brain chemistry. Coyotes have a brain trigger in howling. After it has howled, it cannot do it again for 20-30 minutes. It is interesting to watch them try."

Dennis
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 29, 2005, 11:59 AM:
 
My goodness, Leonard. You cautioned Cal to be polite and behave himself on page 2 and then you throw gasoline on the fire on page 3.
That little angel on one shoulder and little devil on the other must be doing a UFC in the depths of your subconcious.
(polite way of saying you went bonkers)
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 29, 2005, 12:30 PM:
 
In defense of Boddicker, in my recreational howling days, I never found it real easy to get that second group howl or group yip howl to occur. I'd try to wait them out and then after a few minutes(5-10) when they were done howling, I'd hit them again with howls. It was not real common for them to group howl a second time.

Some of the times it did happen would have been in the late summer, early fall time frame. Not real sure if it was just a re-group of some of the litter that hadn't howled the first time?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 29, 2005, 01:53 PM:
 
(polite way of saying you went bonkers)
Thank you, *** is teaching me the finer points.
 

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Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on August 29, 2005, 03:07 PM:
 
Used one about 2 hours ago. Of course we were on a fire call so I didnt hear any responses.

Todd
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 29, 2005, 03:25 PM:
 
Greenside,
I have had the same experience a few times also. I think the group just plain didn't feel like howling the second time, which is a bunch different than saying that the group COULDN'T howl because of some brain chemistry thing.

I have also found that when a coyote or coyotes stop howling, they are sometimes now approaching your location to kick your arse.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on August 30, 2005, 03:23 AM:
 
I vote Bud. "Neighbor of the year" . Got a good laugh out of his post.

Interesting read, so far guys.

Leonard,
We use to have an old [Peter Pirsch] 35' Aerial Truck. With an old "Roller-Siren" mounted on the Officer's side fender cowl. It had been refurbed & chromed. Also converted from "Hand-cranked" to electronic...VERY COOL! siren. "Roller Sirens" have the best sound, IMB.

"Old" [Civil Defense Sirens] sound very similar.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 30, 2005, 07:12 AM:
 
Rich

quote:

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I have also found that when a coyote or coyotes stop howling, they are sometimes now approaching your location to kick your arse

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