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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 17, 2005, 07:20 PM:
Whats [your] opinion[s] on this matter & where do you draw the line?
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Coyotes;
I've killed them, left them lay.
I've shot & wounded many, to far away.
I won't shoot a pup.
One thing that strikes me as odd. Is when another killer, pass's their judgment upon another predator killer. For whatever reason, go figure ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 17, 2005, 07:54 PM:
I've killed a bunch and sold them for as little as $1.
I've killed them and left them lay.
I've killed them and then dug a hole and incinerated them ( Mange )
I've killed pups. I've killed wet bitches.
I've used gas and I've dug out dens. I've even used explosives.
But if I shoot a coyote, and have the slightest thought that I hit, I make every possible effort to make sure that coyote is dead. Even if it means I spend the rest of the day tracking him.
Everyone has to draw their own line for ethics. There are some ways that I will not participate in the taking of coyotes, some that I have done but will not discuss or teach.
It's hard not to get pissed off sometimes when folks start bragging about taking coyotes in ways that I don't agree with.
I think not passing judgment is just part of getting older. At least I'm trying to not pass judgment more and more as I age. I'm still not very good at it, but I'm trying.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 17, 2005, 08:13 PM:
The ones I wounded. I'd spend an hour or so, either tracking or driving spotting. Looking for the recovery. Then move on, daylight burning.
Yup, hard to hold the tongue at times. But if I question why I shoot/kill them. It's a weak defense, for me. But I'm not quitting, regardless.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 18, 2005, 05:04 AM:
I'm with Tim. Except, I'll take it one step further and refuse to sell a coyote for $1 and help saturate a soft market. Not being hip on going to jail for storing pelts (worthless pelts) beyond season I will destroy or donate anything that I do not feel are bringing fair money.
I've been there and done quite a bit of stuff... some of which made me cringe. Now I just smile and try to represent our sport as best "I" can. That's about all a guy has a right to do in my opinion... my hands are too bloody to point fingers.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 18, 2005, 05:33 AM:
I have shot coyotes and left them lay. I have shot coyotes and wounded them and let them go without looking too hard. I have never intentionally killed pups. Im sure I have though through ignorance when I was younger by killing a wet bitch. I have, like Tim, skinned coyotes knowing I may not get but a few dollars.
I guess I kinda evolved in a way. Most ranchers around here view the coyote as vermin. Kill on site. I was raised that way. Most of the time with deer rifles. But, unlike most, I was kinda torn. This was because of some of the guys that came to our place to call and hauled me along. I began to see the coyote as a great game animal as well.
Ive hunted them in ways Im not proud of. Ive rode around with the hound guys and shot out the window. I have just drove around and shot out the window. Not proud of either of those, but its true. Ive cut several in half during deer season just because.
Now, I put my own restraints on. We can kill them year round, except spring turkey season, basically. I hunt from about now til the end of Febuary. Unless I got one of the farmers I hunt on hollerin to kill a calf killer or something. I dont leave them lay unless they are absolutely ripped to shreds, which dont happen often with the little guns.
I guess I use some ethics.
Andy
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 18, 2005, 06:12 AM:
The only [justification] for me, killing them. Is the area farmers, don't want them. A few farmers have had sheep loss's. Some other farmer's have had their pet cats/dogs hammered by coyote. Up in their farm-yard.
Thats the only [real justice] I have. Kind of a [self-appointed farm pet sheriff] I'd say ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 18, 2005, 06:36 AM:
Yeah, 2dogs, I get some of that too. I know some areas of the country actually do have predation problems. Here, we dont. Very little anyway. Fifi may wonder off at the wrong time and become a meal. As for farm animals, ducks, chickens, pigs on ground, ect... sometimes get it. I talked with my dad and grandfather and several other life long ranchers around here, and none I talked to have ever lost calves to coyotes. Feral dogs yes, coyotes no.
I think alot of farmers panic at calving time as coyotes will come around and lick up the cholosterum (sp?) in the calf shit and pick up still borns, and assume they are there for the calves. One fella I hunt on in particular is coyote paranoid. The last two springs he has had a "calf killer". One, I believe, did kill some ducks on his pond. But the calves I saw had alot more signs of still born and eaten than killed by a coyote.
I dont know. This is a big can of worms and another hot topic discussion. But I dont really think we have any predation problems in this particular area. I havent hunted Iowa for coyotes, just phesant. But I have hunted deer on a lease we had for 10 yrs, less than ten miles from the Iowa line and they had about the same population and didnt appear to have a problem either, from the folks I talked to.
Yeah, some farmers are coyote paranoid. But I think its mostly in their head around here....
Andy
Posted by timbertoes (Member # 604) on October 18, 2005, 07:47 AM:
Other than disease.....are we not the Coyotes only natural predator ?
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 18, 2005, 08:34 AM:
Well, it probably doesn't happen much but I think a coyote taco will do a mountain lion just fine, coyote struddle could be a golden eagle delicasy, and wolf pizza might be an Alaskan favorite.
I can't proove any of this, but I figure it could happen!?!?
[ October 18, 2005, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 18, 2005, 10:39 AM:
Andy,
Many moons ago, My Dad was a ranch-hand in South Cal. He said, during calving. The coyotes would sit on neighboring hills waitin, eye-balling the birthing. As soon as a calf was half-ways out.
The locals would swoop-in, yanking the calf out. Or ripping off a chunk. Some got tagged as my Dad was a crack shot.
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Timbertoes,
Good point, in Iowa anyways. We have a rare wolf or Mt.Lion pass through, now & then. But I think they have their own problems to deal with.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 18, 2005, 10:54 AM:
Why are people (in general) so afraid to "pass judgement"? They cringe and say, "I don't want to judge".
What's so terribly wrong with that? A judgement is nothing more than an evaluation (opinion) based on your experience.
Now, if someone feels that their own opinion is inept or baseless, then it seems it would be prudent for them to keep that "judgement" to themselves. Or risk appearing stupid, as in "open mouth, insert foot!"
What's that old saying, "keep your mouth shut and let people assume you're dumb. Or, open it and erase all doubt."
The point here is, we all make "judgements" every day. They are called "decisions". From what to wear, what's for lunch, or fill up now or wait a few days and see if the price comes down any further. Being judgemental is not a bad thing. Being vocal with your bad judgement is.
(edit) What does this have to do with ethics? Ethics are simply the rules, standards, and principles that you use as your guideline for making decisions. A judgement or decision is an outward reflection of your personal ethics. Some people "talk" one set of ethics, but "practice" a completely different set. It makes me wonder if they abhor "judgement" because they risk exposure of their own double standards?
[ October 18, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 18, 2005, 01:40 PM:
NASA,
You've have mostly hit upon, of what I was getting at.
When I judge a person. I'm opening myself up to being judged myself. I'm quilty of plenty, probably more than most. It's more on how it's said/stated, than the judgment itself, IMO.
Occasionally I find myself in a weak double standard. Pathetic to say the least. Sometimes, when I have a coyote in my crosshairs. I think about why I want/need to kill this animal, anyway. [Perhaps, I'm just getting old ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
]
Mostly selfish & weak reasons, are my inward thoughts. Then I pull the trigger. I "justify" tagging one, in the thought of helping some farmer's [livestock] pets or some wild prey animal/fowl. But mostly it's because I enjoy the hunt.
I've read other predator hunters, putting the boot to another for wounding/maiming a predator. eg; Shot to far, wrong gun, not enough gun, ect, ect.
Predators are brutal on their prey, no mercy. So wounding a coyote, is not a problem to me.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 18, 2005, 02:26 PM:
See, I dont agree with that. I dont see why folks need to "justify" killing a coyote. In the name of ADC seems to be most peoples thing to make them feel fuzzy inside.
How about, its fun and challenging to call a coyote or stalk a coyote and kill it. Isnt that justification enough? If not, why do you hunt anything? What would be the justification of killing a deer? You dont need the meat, more than likely. They have grocery stores around.
Make any sense?
Andy
Posted by Fehler (Member # 713) on October 18, 2005, 02:26 PM:
I've got to weigh in on this after reading through the responses so far. Can't this question be asked of any game animal? Granted that most "game" such as deer, elk, dove, ducks, whatever are going to be consumed. The hunter is providing meat for the table. I've shot many a rabbit in my life, only attempted to eat one. But what about bear, lion, coons, various "African" species. I've seen guided hunts under game fence offer a longhorn. Although steak sounds tons better than coon stew, I'm not going to hunt longhorn steer. That is not a hunt.
However, you will get a definite respose from each hunter of a particular game that justifies why they do it.
I personally enjoy the challenge of hunting predators. Calling them in, paying attention to set up, wind & all other factors. I'd rather call something in than wait by a feeder, just my preferance for the challenge.
Coyote numbers, by most accounts I have seen, are on the rise. Some areas support more than others. Is there potental for predation, yes. Does it always occur when coyote are present, no. Are most ranchers I deal with ready to let me on to go predator hunting when I ask, yes they are.
I suppose I hang my hat on "predator control" for justifying it to others. I'm not out to eliminate the population. I do belive there is good in the control we (all of us) do through hunting.
Here in Texas we don't have a set season, it's open year round & you can hunt them at night too. But, I keep restraints on my self by not hunting through the summer, pretty much from early May to mid/late September. Get the pups raised & kick them out of the den. I'd rather have the predators to hunt than not.
So is killing predators ethical? IMO, it depends on how it is done. If done "right" I belive it is.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on October 18, 2005, 02:41 PM:
quote:
I talked with my dad and grandfather and several other life long ranchers around here, and none I talked to have ever lost calves to coyotes.
quote:
Yeah, some farmers are coyote paranoid. But I think its mostly in their head around here....
LOL how true it is. Last spring a rancher called me up and said he was over run with coyotes and they had just killed one of his calves. I went out to check it out and he showed me one dead calf that had a hindquarter mostly eaten “See” he said. “I told you they were getting my calves! That calf was alive and doing fine yesterday!! You do the math” Well there wasn’t one drop of blood to be found anywhere so I took the stinking thing home and peeled it out. Normally I wouldn’t have but over on “another board” a few weekend warriors were busy killing “STOCK KILLERS” and I was getting frustrated with all of the chest beating going on.
Anyway I skinned the calf and with out surprise I found nothing but pink flesh under the hide. No punctures, teeth marks or blood shot skin anywhere. Even the area where the coyote fed showed no sign of trauma. As far as I could see everything that happened to that calf was postmortem. I took pictures and planned on explaining what the difference between a coyote eaten calf looks like and what a kill would look like.
In the end I decided not to post. Some coyote hunters love to bask in there glory and shroud themselves in false mysticism. They come on line with there chests puffed out thinking they did something special by shooting “A” coyote that was undoubtedly a STOCK KILLER. LOL Although a feeble attempt at notoriety it does work in some circles. How does the saying go? “In the land of the blind a one eyed man is king?” LOL They can have it.
There will always be some jerkoff spouting off about some feat he just accomplished that screams BULL$HIT but there is nothing you can say that will change the facts as he sees them.
I think it was Randy W that once said. “Arguing on the Internet is like winning the gold medal at the Special Olympics. Sure you might win but you are still retarded.” LOL If I offended any one by this little analogy PLEASE get a life. LOL
There is a lot of coyote hunting practices that I think are unethical and in the past I have been pretty vocal about it but anymore unless it is too bad I just keep to my self. I figure that even the bottom feeders have to eat too and remind myself of the “retard” analogy. He he
Going back to the calf I skinned. I brought back the hide to show the rancher and told him he was drinking his bath water. There was nothing I could say that would convince him any different. A coyote killed that calf and that was just the way it was.
To make a long story short later that week I was down at the coffee shop when our local government guy comes rolling up in his brand new white Doge. I am always nosey when I bump in to him because I am protective of MY coyotes. LOL About 99% of the time he is out medicating prairie dogs but not today.
“Hello” I said. “What are you up to in these parts.” I ask. “Got a coyote call out south of town” he replies. “OH” I say. “Ya, old Wane has got a real problem, lost about 6 calves in the last week or so. “Get after them,” I say.
And so it goes. One sick or stillborn calf gets ate on and it snowballs from there every body in the coffee shop KNEW that Wane had indeed lost 6 calves to coyotes and that’s the way it was. After all if it wasn’t a REAL problum the government wouldn’t be called in to help. Right?
People are hungry for stuff like that. I guess they get tired of bitching about the weather. When I talk to ranchers about hunting some of them have been seeing this one coyote that hangs out in the north 40 that is no ordinary coyote! He is huge! Looks like it could be crossed with a Germen Shepard or something. That or a pure white one, or a pure black one, or some other distinguishing characteristic that I have never seen before. Some tell me to keep a look out for the mountain lion they have been seeing also. LOL
Some days I swear to God everyone on the net runs into these kind of ranchers and presumes that this is the way it is, you know “out in the country!” Maybe it is only on these ranchers’ places that the nimrods can get access to hunt? After all when out of towners start nosing around for a place to hunt they will be always be pointed strait to the ranchers who are squealing about coyotes?
If you are not familiar with government trappers you should know that there is a significant amount of paper work that is involved with there jobs. Part of the paperwork includes a damage assessment of some kind. I don’t know for sure but I would bet about a half a dozen calves got chalked up over that one incident. I know first hand that the whole thing was BULLSHITTTT but what I would really like to know is how much other damage is reported across Nebraska and the rest of the country that is a total fabrication from paranoid ranchers? When people get wound up about one thing or another it usually ends up as a fish story. Callers are the same way. The coyote that was shot at 150 on the trot ends up at 200 on the run a week later. A year later the 30 coyotes he shot last winter jumped to 40 by late spring and nearly 50 by fall. LOL you know how it goes.
The way I see it you need about as much justification to kill a coyote as you do to kill a pheasant or a deer. Why is it that every time someone kills a coyote it is “coyote control, damage control, ADC work or some other misleading title? Nearly every guy on the Internet kills all of the above for recreation first with food and furs a distant second or not at all. God and State gives me the privilege to hunt so I will and for my own reasons. My reasons will be different than yours but by giving a reason just sets us up for a fall. Reasons or justifications in my opinion are just “excuses.” When you voluntarily give excuses for what you are doing you are just playing into the antis hand. Many of the traditional excuses we like to give could easily be torn to shreds by anyone with an agenda.
During a blizzard in 1979 a cow got caught in a snow bank and was fed on by coyotes while it was still alive. I have seen the picture before but it was a long time ago so I don’t know what happened to it. My family on my fathers’ side has ranched for as long as ranching has existed I would guess and that is the one and only incident of it’s kind that any one can remember.
No offence 2dogs but I don’t buy into all the stories I hear about coyotes eating calves that are halfway out. A cow would be on its feet and on the fight in a second even WHILE giving birth if coyotes were attacking it. It would take a highly motivated pack of coyotes to get very far making there living that way. Cows are not that helpless. If or when something like that does happen the cow or heifer is having serious birthing problems to begin with. Sometimes they will get paralyzed during birth but that is very rare.
There is a big difference in what sometimes or could happen to calves than what usually happens. Normal hunting pressure keeps coyotes honest and in check around calving lots but even at that there is not a calving lot in the entire state of Nebraska that doesn’t have coyotes running through it nightly. Opportunity is there on a nightly bases for any coyote to attack calves. We have a hell of a lot of coyotes and a hell of a lot of calves here yet I have never in my life seen a coyote killed calf.
I am sure it happens, no doubt about it but not on the scale some would believe it does.
Ethics? The higher the standers the better we look as a sporting group but no one can set a standard of ethics with out enacting laws? No one seams to agree on the difference between right or wrong when it comes to killing coyotes and some people feel that any thing they do to coyotes is justified because they are predators. They act like they are “getting even” with a coyote because it has doubtlessly caused some kind of hardship for another animal. Coyotes do this or that, which is all the excuse I need to shoot puppies or wet bitches. I have heard it all before.
For now, we have the luxury to impose our own ethical guidelines. We should be thankful that the greenies have not concentrated there efforts on our sport because I think we would be an easy mark.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 18, 2005, 03:14 PM:
Q, I couldnt agree more.
Andy
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on October 18, 2005, 03:56 PM:
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on October 18, 2005, 05:00 PM:
Is it ethical? Judging by which special interest group? Everyone's in a special interest group to some degree or another. Killing Coyotes is and isn't ethical even within my own beliefs. I believe in not killing something that I can't benefit from using a MAJOR portion of said animal. I also believe man is a hunter on an instinctual level. The two thoughts collide also on an instictual level it seems possibly due to one predator(me) preffering to rid my hunting area of another predator. Kind of a self preservation thing maybe. I don't know. It's terribly confusing for me every time I consider the hunting/anti-hunting issue in any aspect. What settles the issue for me kinda all boils down to the fact that today's society agrees that it's leagl for me to hunt and I have a "need" to hunt, therefore it's ethical for me to hunt. Loren.
edited:; All this is of course taken into account that I LIKE to hunt Coyotes also.
[ October 18, 2005, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 18, 2005, 05:32 PM:
Q-Wagoner,
No offense taken. Just relaying what my Dad, told me. Interesting opinions so far. Once thing you brought up, made me remember a point of [evolving stories].
I have told many stories of my hunting jaunts. The more I tell, they seem to change somewhat. Their all starting to mesh into themselves[cavitation].
On another sight [not PM], I was conversing with another coyote hunter. I told him of a particular coyote I shot last winter. Then I posted a pic...Hmmmm, he say's "Thats not him, is it?" I say, "Can't recall exactly now that you mention it!, I think it is".
Re-call is often the culprit of changing facts in a story. As time goes by, eh.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on October 18, 2005, 05:44 PM:
Yes, Re-call can get you in trouble. LOL I don’t keep the records I should and I know I have screwed up a story or two also. I am not even way old like you. LOL Most of my recent hunts of note I usually post a pic and a story about them somewhere on the net. If I get confused I can just run a search to make sure I get my story right.
As much as I have ran off at the mouth over the last few years it is especially important for me to keep my ducks in a row. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 18, 2005, 07:24 PM:
If I had to rely only on those coyotes I killed fopr ADC reasons, I'd be done hunting in a hurry. In Kansas, 99.999% of all coyote problems are more the fault of the producer than the coyote. I can generally assess the situation surrounding the damage, be it coyotes, coons, whatever, nand then make recommendations toi the rancher or famer about what he can do to eliminate the opportunity. That's a much easier and generally successful approach in most cases. I've tried to counsel a few coyotes toward veganism, but thus far, no luck.
And Q, I resnt those remarks about imbellishments. Just last week, when I killed bugger brown, what I didn't tell about was his four packmates that lined up in single file and who all fell with just one shot at well over three hundred yards at a dead run. I was as surprised as they were. I'd have said all that before, but I didn't want to embarass the rest of you guys and your failure to match such a feat on your own. You know me... I don't like to brag. Oh, and BTW, good post. I agree.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 18, 2005, 07:40 PM:
NASA,
You're right. I admit it, I still pass judgment on nearly every post I read. I've just gotten to the point that I with hold expressing my opinion on a lot of things. It just isn't worth the fight that it will lead to.
Q,
I'm as guilty as any in years past, of to using the ADC excuse for killing coyotes.
But I've change my answer to the question of why I hunt. "I hunt because I'm a predator, it's in my blood and it's what I do"
The ADC thing always led to more questions and having to justify myself. I've yet to have anyone ask me to prove that I am a predator.
And most every coyote problem I've ever seen, could be controlled by shooting a few dogs, or feeding the cattle before they starve to death and coyotes fed on the corpse.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 18, 2005, 08:25 PM:
Tim, and so do I, and probably most of us here. But it's becoming more and more "expected" to embrace political correctness.
Quick story: Last week my Mgr. called me in his office. He asked me what I thought of a new hire engineer in our group. I said, "do you really want my opinion?" He said he's planning on making her a lead engineer, so let's hear it. So I laid it out for him. The "engineer" is a girl about 26 with no practical experience. She isn't a problem solver, doesn't pay attention to detail, couldn't draw a conclusion with with a template, and spends most of the day socializing up and down the halls. She has said that she would rather spend all day in meetings getting "face time", than sit at her desk doing Failure Analysis (her assigned task). I said, "she would be better suited at picking out window dressings for your office than being a Project Mgr."
Well, today he called me back in to his office. He said he had to "write me up" for my "derogatory and sexist" remarks about another employee." This coming at Review time. Neat, huh?
So where's the breach of ethics here? Was I wrong for giving an honest opinion (instead of a politically correct one) when asked? Or was it the Mgr. for setting me up for a sucker punch?
[ October 18, 2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on October 18, 2005, 08:47 PM:
Sounds like the manager is a wormy little prick to me. If he had a spine he would have shut you down right then and there and said “Ya know Tom, we can’t have you talking that way in the office.” End of story.
Are there more qualified people for that position or is it more of a statuesque issue? Gotta be politically correct ya know. Sounds like the latter to me if they are willing to make a project manager out of someone that incompetent. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on October 18, 2005, 09:09 PM:
I hunt coyotes for one reason. I love to hunt coyotes! I respect them, I learn from them, and take in all the other things that go with the outdoor hunt. But I hunt them because I love to hunt coyotes! I enjoy calling them even if I dont fire a shot. Or I shoot them on film and never fire a shot.
To me, I dont haft to have a reason. They are a challenge. And I try to learn all I can about them. I still skin and put up my coyotes. And sell them at the end of every season. I have killed wet bitches and pups. And I have left them lay were they were shot. If I can get a few bucks from them then I will. But I dont hunt them for the money, or because they are killing deer or cattle. I hunt them because I love to hunt coyotes....lol
NASA...I understand! I deal with that crap every day! I feel for ya!
Brent
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 18, 2005, 09:47 PM:
Tom,
That's exactly why I'm trying to transfer up to Tombstone right now. I've got a new Boss, who was my former partner. I ran him off as a Troubleman because he's dumber than a post and too lazy to even grow moss.
I've a real low tolerance for stupid people who ask stupid questions. Especially when they already asked the same question twice before.
I've got to get out of that Douglas Office before he asks for my opinion again.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 19, 2005, 07:29 AM:
At least you guys can go home to get away from your ass-hole boss.
I'm self employed.
Posted by LionHo (Member # 233) on October 19, 2005, 11:04 AM:
Q's post got me thinking about a few things.
I've come to the conclusion that sport hunting of coyotes is not a primary threat. There are other much bigger issues at play that anyone who cares about coyote numbers and keeping systems in balance might better devote their hand-wringing to. Bottom line is that ranchers need educated about coyotes.
First, let me mention in my particular section seeing a coyote is much more rare than seeing a bobcat. Probably something like 10:1, in my experience. And they're not very socially vocal. Also tend to be sneakers on the call.
Secondly, there are a lot of old cattle ranches with some very well-connected old time ranchers along with the Johnny-come-lately celebrity ones, many of whom benefit from cheap grazing leases on adjacent federal lands.
Third, there is a multi-billion-dollar agricultural base in the nearby Salinas Valley, with a lot of crop-dusters, most of them helicopters, incidentally (which machinery often sits idle at certain times of the year).
So 15 years ago I was kicking around the idea of doing a story on #1, call-shy coyotes, and digging for a bit of research (fancied myself as an outdoor writer in those days, had even had articles published in national mags a few times) and happened to be talking to a local oldtimer biologist (about accessing their research field station for calling critters to the camera) when the subject of Compound 1080 happened to come up.
Here I'd thought the use of 1080 went out with the registration being pulled for use on predators in the 70's. Apparently a lot of it had been stockpiled; also its reg hadn't been pulled for use on rodents. Coyotes were practically wiped out locally due to 1080 was her contention.
Now at first I was skeptical of this. From talking to ranchers, my gut told me that coyotes here had just been persecuted for a couple of centuries and had become call shy. But the numbers were much, much lower than one would expect if they had done so and if this was their primary threat. Couple of other bits of info lent much more credence to the woman biologists opinion.
"Mark L." the top federal biologist at the time for a couple of huge military bases in South County told me--off the record that were it not for 1080 the San Joaquin Kit Fox would not be on the Endangered Species list. Mark wasn't any tree-hugger, he was a hunter himself and just frustrated with the cattle grazing that was going on under his nose that he had a limited ability to control. He suggested that the ground squirrels were competion for grazing, and that 1080 was indeed used, but that it was persistent in the environment and "triple-kill", meaning that if a fox came along six months later and ate a dead squirrel, it'd croak and so would a coyote that scavenged the fox. (If you don't know about how specific and deadly to canids 1080 is, you might wanna bone up on this).
And next piece of the puzzle was one day I was talking with a good buddy of mine, Bill Tucker, who for many years was a helicopter crop-duster over in the Salinas Valley, when he happened to mention having received an award for having achieved an 80% kill ratio on ground squirrels over a 100,000 acre area that he'd personally applied (broadcast millet seed coated with 1080). This was in the late 80's, long after 1080 had fallen off everybody's radar, long after Hope Ryden's Song-Dog book that had called attention to it and had lead to the registration ban for predators (think "Silent Spring" for coyotes) had fallen off the best-seller list.
It's not just a saying that the ground squirrels have become a plague, here they actually vector the fleas that carry bubonic plague when their numbers get high enough. Which is sometimes used as a justification for exterminating them when plague is present. Couple of soldiers and kids at Ft. Hunter Liggett have contracted it through the years. But squirrels aren't the only vectoring critters for the fleas, so wiping them out doesn't work.
Problem being the squirrels rebounded really quickly, the coyotes and kit foxes didn't. Too, overgrazed land doesn't allow coyotes or fox a stalking approach and their success at killing squirrels plummets. So this eradication program turned out to be a dismal failure for it's underlying intended purpose, which was to reduce competition for grazing, cattle versus squirrel.
More squirrels than ever.
By the early 90's exotic escaped red fox were really thriving in the Salinas Valley, seeming taking over the coyote niche in the same sorts of grassland areas. (I figure they avoided 1080 poisoning themselves by being more focused on waterfowl and ground-nesting birds). Red fox have singlehandedly been responsible for nearly extincting clapper rails and snowy plover, and have extirpated burrowing owls. Unfortunately, they're also really cute, and there is an actual endangered Sierran subspecies of red fox, so no hunting season was to be for reds. Instead, USFW had to launch a trapping campaign to reduce their numbers. Nobody's taking credit but more effectively somebody released a few with sarcoptic mange that really knocked them for a loop.
Chances are red fox will rebound to cause havoc as long as coyotes are repressed.
Considering all this, I won't ever hunt coyotes hereabouts. But even so, the poisoning had a much greater and more lasting effect than hunting them would, and set a whole chain of other unintended consequences in motion.
[ October 19, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: LionHo ]
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on October 19, 2005, 03:41 PM:
Ethical killing of predators? Check out your own government at work...Killing pups in a den....killing the bitch and let the pups starve to death....Shooting,killing and wounding coyotes from the air and letting them lay? When it comes to coyotes, nothing is ethical as far as our government or cattle ranchers are concerned.
The real truth is, more cows die from eating bad grass. Besides, what coyote in it's right mind would attack a full grown healthy cow, bull or horse?
Calf killers? the truth is 95% of the time, something else killed the calf and the coyotes are just taking advantage.
The problem is, you can't explain that to a cattle rancher because they don't want to hear it, the same can be said about our goverment.
Hunters being ethical? after what our own government does to coyotes and other critters, I'd think hunters are very ethical. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ October 19, 2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 19, 2005, 05:40 PM:
When I die, I am going to Heaven and I'm really going to miss you guys.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 19, 2005, 07:02 PM:
Tom,
I have a boss that pulls the same kind of crap. I've just learned not to speak to him anymnore than I have to, and then, only the facts. Case in point, he has a real hard-on for female letter carriers. Especially if they don't have veteran's preference. We have one full time female carrier that was in his office as our union contact person discussing a conflict between a few carriers and a new policy that it was felt contradicted our contract. He wouldn't budge and would rather have allowed yet another grievance against him. On the way out, the carrier asks him if he always has to be an ass. He smirked and said, "Yeah, as a matter of fact." Then, he turns around and files an insubordination complaint against her and threatens her with a week's suspension without pay. Time for arbitration. She files a grievance and in comes the union steward and another office manager. She had spoke with me and when she told me the dialogue that occurred, I reminded her that she had verbage on her side. Words have meaning. She didn't call him an ass hole like he alleges and upon which he based his disciplinary action. She asked him if he was an ass, and he agreed. In a manner of speaking, he called himself an ******* . She used that in her defense and the arbitrators agreed. He lost his complaint and she won her grievance. End of discussion. Sounds like you need to document the dialogue that occurred between you and emphasize the fact that he asked you for your opinion first.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 19, 2005, 08:03 PM:
I had a talk with the boss again today. I told him that "asking" for my opinion (in private) was not the same as me publicly expressing my opinion. Then I told him that using that confidentially obtained information as leverage against me was "entrapment". I told him that if I were to take this to the Labor Board, the Company would probably have to pay me a large settlement.
He hemmed and hawed, then said he wasn't "really" going to file a written reprimand in my employee folder. I said, "Oh, so you were just using it as an opportunity lie, threaten, and intimidate me?"
He said, as a Mrg. he is "obliged" to be politically correct. I just turned around and walked out of his office.
I've been around the barn a few times, so I can read the writing on the wall. I spent the rest of the day updating my resume.
From now on when asked my opinion, I'll just politely decline. People don't want your opinion when they ask. They want you to confirm theirs. Ethics? They're not static, they're not a fixed standard. They're in flux, to suit the situation at a given time.
"But don't ask me what i think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to" - ..... Fleetwood Mac
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 19, 2005, 08:19 PM:
I've always spoke my mind to my supers & boss's. Whether they asked me or not. Not good, if your looking for an easy-time. Don't give a rats carcass, regardless. It's just a job.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on October 19, 2005, 09:30 PM:
NASA, Tim, From what you describe your bosses are prime examples of what I believe is called The Peter Principle. It's when a person is promoted to their highest level of imcompetence. The only reason I know this is my wife is in Human Relations Management and once when I bitched about my incompetent boss she told me this was the reason. If it makes you feel any better you can now attach a fancy name for the reason a idiot can become the guy in charge.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on October 20, 2005, 07:09 AM:
Q,
Good post as always. With the county programs here, I basically work for several different ranchers. Almost all of the actual killing problems are in sheep here. Occasionally a calf will actually be killed, but in most instances I can prove that the calf died before being fed on. Not so with sheep. Killing can be rampant, and they do kill sheep year around. But rancher exadgeration does occur in the sheep deal also. Some of you have watched the video that we have out, and we do give some clues as to finding actual kills that the coyotes are responsible for. But most guys won't take the time to skin out a three day old pile of rotten meat and maggots. I would have liked to include alot more footage of "damage", but I'm not sure how many people really care to see that in a video, and I do have more that will be included in some later videos. There are good and bad in all the world and that includes federal trappers of any sort, ranchers, and recreational callers. All can stretch the truth and claim things that aren't true. But what is true is that coyotes do kill things, and if you have too many coyotes, they kill too many things. Try to find antelope fawns in high coyote areas after about the 20th of June. There won't be many left. Deer fawns also. Ethics come down to personal opinion. That is all there is to it as near as I can tell. The reality is that without some control by all of us (including paid coyote hunters) the coyote will deplete their prey base, and at that point they will die off from starvation and disease, then the prey base will rebound, the coyote will rebound and we start all over again. Simple facts of nature. In any species either we can manage them or mother nature will, and she's alot crueler than any of us ever will be. Coyote control is really the only way to insure a stable healthy population for all of us to hunt.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 20, 2005, 08:01 AM:
Good post Cal. Mother Nature is the ultimate predator. I've often have wondered about the ethics of "banking" coyotes for the intent of maximizing harvest numbers and profits. Seems to me that the potential would be there to let Mother Nature have the upper hand. Whack'em and Stack'em!
Dennis
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on October 25, 2005, 03:25 PM:
Off the topic a little. I've done a little coyote ranch work. Mostly sheep. Last year a rancher was loosing geese, after removing 3 coyotes from the area, he lost a young colt to coyotes. Actual death was from starvation, the coyotets had mangeled one of his hind legs. Funny thing was that they didn't touch anything else.
When I was in highschool we were gathering cows and found a cow with her guts strung out for a couple of miles, which was the work of coyotes. Some would argue a cougar, but we loose cows all the time to cougars, there is no mistaking a cougar kill. Most of the time the cougar will try and hid the kill.
A rancher is the 80's on Cedar Mtn. lost over 90 sheep and lambs to a cougar teaching her two cubs to kill. But the coolest preditor kill I seen was in college during a predator control class, were a bald eagle was standing in a small meadow when a lamb walked right up to it. The eagle reaches out with a talon while standing on the other and crushes the lambs head than then flies away with the lamb. Anyway just a few stories from this end of the world.
Most of the time we see coyotes there are cows in the same field. They seem to tolerate each other. Once in a while a pack of coyotes will take town a calf, but very rare.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 25, 2005, 05:12 PM:
WoW! That's all I can say.
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