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Author
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Topic: Vocalization Question
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Bud/OR
Knows what it's all about
Member # 450
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posted October 28, 2005 12:10 PM
Hi Fellas and Gal,
The other thread on the subject was waaay to heavy for me. Didn't feel qualified to participate.
Having said that; I've been calling...animals for 45+ years, only the last five, or so, coyotes with a howler. Here's my situation and questions.
I seem to have very little competition where I hunt, Eastern or Western Oregon. What I mean is, at twenty-or-so weekends a year, calling, I might see or hear three other callers a year. But...assuming there are a lot more hunters than I see, I'm curious what you guys think the 'carry-over' of 'educated' (for want of better term) coyotes might be, from one year to the next....(don't know if that made sense).
Scenario; I call in three coyotes and pop one. the other two, who have, stone-cold, busted me, take off and will not respond to further calling. I move a couple miles and repeat the deal, shoot one and busted again.... I usually don't return to the same stand for months if then, for the year (I have a ton of places GPS'd). The...survivors end up crossing...territories... and have next season's pups. Now...
Do you think these 'survivors' will retain a memory of the exact calls I used when I spooked the hell out of them and screw up future success? For how long? Will they have brains enough to remember and relate 'danger' to the new pups?
I'm asking this because I know some of you actually hunt for a living and I'm getting the idea that you feel that you need to use enough different vocalizations to, if they were in English, write the Gettysburg Address (Jeese, run-on sentence). I am not, nor do I want to be, qualified to remember ten or twenty different vocalizations. But...If it is neccessary, I'm shooting myself in the foot by not doing it.
Unlike most of you,I am a 'recreational' hunter. I do have an agenda. I try to thin out the coyotes that are eating fawns and calf elk. I don't keep a count but I have shot a ton or two of coyotes over the years and called in a few tons more. As I said, I don't think I have a lot of competition. I am curious if I am missing a bet by not learning more coyote vocalizations. I have a couple e-callers but only have five different coyote sounds, total.... I was blown away, looking at a list of more than twenty different sounds. I realize some of you say few are needed but others seem to be adamant, more is better.
I will appreciate some friendly answers. I'm not shopping brands here, just info. Thanks.
Bud
[ October 28, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Bud/OR ]
Posts: 51 | From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2004
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted October 28, 2005 12:47 PM
Bud/OR,
Short answer No.
I really doubt that coyotes are going to remember a certain sound from year to year,or even month to month.Let alone teach there pups not to respond (IMO).Knowing/using alot of different sounds would definitely help in some areas where calling pressure is up,and the same type of sounds are being used day after day.But I've called coyotes in a area and missed and a few weeks later went back to the same area and called coyotes again,with the same call.Are they the same coyotes I called before. I really don't know,but the point is I was still able to call something in.I only use mouth calls (open reed distress call) and a howler when calling,so I don't have alot of sounds to choose from either,but coyotes still seem to come in on a regular basis.Coyotes have to eat so if they stop investigating distress sounds alot of coyotes will starve to death.LOL ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I think Persistance is the key to being successful in calling coyotes. Hope that was of some help.GOOD HUNTING Chad
[ October 28, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 28, 2005 12:52 PM
Bud,
My 2-cents. Although I'm a [new-guy] caller. I still have an opinion on coyotes.
In a sense, I think of all [animal in general]as if they were human. As with real humans, there are all sorts of I.Q'level's.
Coyotes;
Some have remarkably long memories, some don't. Some have certain experiences, some don't. Some have a bad disposition, some don't. They do reason, to some extent, IMHO. Sometimes better than man, sometimes not..ect, ect.
You see where I'm headed ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .
Some of the things, they have up on me. Are hearing, speed, scenting ability & sometimes I.Q ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) . As for vocalizations, I don't speak coyote.
Do they pass on learned knowledge, to next yr's pups? Who knows for sure, for a fact. I say if the same scenario was to arise at that moment. I'd then say, "yes they can"
[ October 28, 2005, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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catskin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 51
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posted October 28, 2005 01:29 PM
Hey Bud, I’m one of the other four eastern Oregon callers I know of on the boards. I’d say that means there are another 1500 of us out there, you would be surprised at how many only lurk and never post. Funny – I do not think I’ve met another caller in the field, but I’ve followed tire tracks that stopped every mile in fresh snow and I just stop between their stands and do OK.
Anyway, to your question, I have a pair den every year in the canyon about ¼ mile from my house along the Deschutes river. The river is a barrier so there are is no inflow of new blood from the east. They have 4 to 8 pups a year and I kill 3 to 6 of them in October and November, the stupid young ones I guess I only get one of the old ones every year or so.
Now these are coyotes that grow up hearing me practice howling and calling while I sit in the hot tub every other night, calling to their den, or later in the season, watching them circle the yard and fight (verbally) with the dogs for that dang rabbit, yet they still come when I load the rifle and walk out there. Half circle and try to get down wind but the other half just walk in. Loren (Doggitter) has been to my place, its good coyote country, but it’s well used country too.
Posts: 76 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 28, 2005 02:47 PM
Obviously a better [all encompassing]answer, to your origional question. Would/could fill a book.
Alot of coyote hunters or callers have had experiences that contradict [or atleast, appear to], the next persons experience's, go figure.
One very powerfull & at times overwhelming drive, IMHO. That can make even the most "educated" coyote respond. Is hunger, same as people.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 28, 2005 03:00 PM
I can offer two cents worth. I do not think that a coyote can put two and two together. I know for a fact that you can call the same coyote to a slightly different location fifteen minutes later.
Yes, they can associate danger with a spotlight, and danger with a distress call, but they really don't know the whole deal. Perhaps they think a human is killing a rabbit? Perhaps they won't approach, while there is danger? Perhaps they sniff all over the location when you leave.
But, do you think they figure it out? I don't.
Therefore, they have to accept a howl or a distress at face value.
However, there are those that abuse a good thing and a coyote will run from an airplane. He will run from a spotlight. He MAY not run from a distress call, but he won't make the mistake of coming within range.
This is dealing with harrassed coyotes.
If you shoot one or two from a group, I think you have an excellent chance of calling the excapees withing weeks.
But, you have to kill them. If you just throw lead at them, they are not going to be fooled, and actually run the other way. This is a phenomena known as Kansas coyote hunting.
In an unexploited population, there is not much danger of that happening. I routinely hunt the same places after a month to settle down, and they act like virgin coyotes.
In other words, I do not believe that a coyote can learn much from one event because he doesn't know what it was all about.
The real question is, if you suddenly protect an exploited population; one year later, will they still be spooky? I think you could hunt them very successfully, after allowing them to settle down.
Another thing. Take what Higgins does. He calls them, films them, has extended conversations with them, but he doesn't threaten them, and they can be called again a few weeks later, if not sooner.
Short answer is, with a little luck, you should be able to call a coyote more than once or twice, even from the same spot.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 28, 2005 03:19 PM
My area is becoming increasingly pressured by callers, especially en lieu of moderately decent fur prices and increasing gas bills where a guy wants to tag some fur, but doesn't wanna double his mileage commitment by having to run steel in the morning.
A lot of these guys are new to calling. They set up, call a while and occasionally get lucky. They aren't nearly adept enough at calling to pull down fur consistently, but every once in a while, they grab the ring. Then, they go back. If that place was good for one coyote, it oughtta be good for at least another. To some extent, I agree with that. Especially when you assume that you've got a 6:10 chance that the one you nailed was part of a pack and the rest of the family is within earshot. But, when they go back, they come up with goose eggs and decide that there can be no other reason than that the survivors are "educated". In truth, they're not the only one that smells coyote in them thar woods, and they don't realize that forty-eleven other coyoteros, both callers and dog men, have run thru there and scattered their "prey".
Like Leonard, I have whacked a coyote and saw its packmates run into a weeded ravine, then come back two hours later, approach from a different angle, and call one of them out and shoot it.
If I have identified and verified that a pack has residency in a certain area, I'll call it. When I call and kill one, I redeploy my assets over the same area, but from a different angle. Call from a new spot, different time of the day, change your cadence and maybe even the type of call you use. It's really easy for us to fall into the rut of using the same cadence, the same voice, the same everything because it worked well for us last weekend. In any event, change a few parameters so as not to present the same approach to the same pack. Keep mixing it up and see what happens. That way, even if we're wrong and they do remember, you're not handing them an easy out on a silver platter.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 28, 2005 03:22 PM
Leonard, after reading your post. Made me think of the different or [same?] coyotes, I've shot at.
Not to stray off of topic; But....
Why do you, or anyone for that matter. Believe why some coyotes lope away. Some trot away, some go into flat-out mode instantly. After being shot at? Even when they don't always know where the shot came from. Or even what the shot noise meant.
Answers, followed by questions
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted October 28, 2005 05:25 PM
Now I know how to find the right driveway next time over Cat.
I'm in agreement with the common thought here too. In my limited experience it seems that they are way eager to come in every time I visit the same spot to be learning much. I do only get there several months apart but I see no difference between hunting there and any other place I go.
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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catskin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 51
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posted October 28, 2005 06:40 PM
I think it was Q who said "as long as you can kill all of the coyotes that you call into your hotspots these areas will remain hotspots."
Its so simple!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ October 28, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]
Posts: 76 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 28, 2005 07:09 PM
Quinton can be all wise at times. At others? Well,...
Anyway, I digress. I agree with that statement. In the past, I have always withheld a little bit of what it takes to call 'em in. Didn't want to give up too much to neophytes. Last year, I started offering more of the mud that fills in the holes. As I saw it, it would mean that any coyotes that those other guys called would end up dead, thus leaving no "educated" coyotes to contend with. Jury's still out on whether it helped me or not. Either way, I get to hear stories about how much better they're doing.
[ October 28, 2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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