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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on October 28, 2005, 01:42 PM:
 
I don’t know if this has been discussed here before if it has I don’t remember and the membership has grown considerably since if it has.

I find it difficult to step away from what has worked in the past. Implementing something new into what I do is difficult and will candidly admit that paying more attention to the basics of approach and set up and learning about typical coyote behavior have helped me become more successful and will likely continue to do so.

I’m curious how long do you give something new to your routine to show marked improvement before you abandon it and go back to what was working for you, or move on to something different? Whether it is a new sound for your e-caller, decoys, a guy who usually hand calls implementing an e-caller or visa versa.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 28, 2005, 02:58 PM:
 
I agree with you Bryan as far as sticking with the basics and not getting to fancy.

I don't use a E-caller,I don't use decoys,I don't really use Scents much if ever anymore.I don't believe camo is totally nessassary but can be useful in some situations.

I do use hand calls(open reed)both distress and howlers with great success.I believe the key to being successful as a caller is very basic.
1)Be Persistant
2)Don't move around when calling
3)Shoot staight
4)Don't over call
5)Don't stay at a stand to long

That's about it for me,I might change up sequence in my calling a bit but I don't change alot from stand to stand.FWIW GOOD HUNTING Chad

[ October 28, 2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 28, 2005, 07:53 PM:
 
How long? Gee, depends on a few things. First, is it a lot of trouble, like hauling around a full size coyote decoy?

Does it involve waiting and letting the location settle for five or ten minutes?

Does it mean switching your methods, like wading into the brush with a shotgun when you never hunted like that before?

Maybe just picking a stand completely different from what you like, such as getting off the side of a hill and hunkering down in the canyon. Maybe hunting downwind, when you mostly like to set up, upwind?

These things are procedural. But, other significant changes in your routine could be gear, like using, or discarding a decoy. Maybe you always wanted to try a harris bipod? Maybe you never found just the exact chair that fits you? Maybe a half assed attempt at some type of a "cover scent"?

A lot of these things can be determined in a day afield. Other things you may never decide, completely....do I howl before the distress, or half way through my stand?

There is the law of diminishing returns; some things can't hurt, but don't help much. Maybe if you started to walk an extra 100 yards? Maybe if you decide that you are kicking up to many animals as you forge further away from the road? Do you call in their bedroom? Do you call them OUT of their bedroom? When (what time) should you be knocking on the bedroom door?

You have to have a plan, and another plan to suit conditions. A bag of tricks, throw them a changeup. Sometimes this stuff ain't as easy as they (the gurus) say it is.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 28, 2005, 08:49 PM:
 
I don't have a fixed "routine". I'm not a believer that every stand "must" be hunted a certain way. I have a goal for every stand, but not an unbreakable process that must be adhered to at any cost. (Common sense dictates like approach, wind, etc, not withstanding.)

I have a variety of "tactics" that I will draw on. To me that's necessary because you never know what situation you will have to deal with, especially in an unfamiliar area. The more experience you have, the more tactics you will have learned and filed away.

If I make any "change" in my approach to calling, it would likely be in the tools I use. It's fun (for me) to experiment with different calls, home made and commercial decoys, I have more kinds of camo than I'll probably ever use. I have guns that I haven't even fired yet, but I enjoy it.

Predator hunting isn't a life or death event for me. I don't consider myself (or the hunt) a failure if the truck bed isn't awash in blood and fur at the end of the hunt. My ego doesn't demand blood when I unholster my gun, like the ancient samuri's did if they unsheathed their sword. I call predators for fun not profit, for pleasure not revenge, for recreation not status.

[ October 28, 2005, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 28, 2005, 08:52 PM:
 
Bryan,

I have the advantage of having nothing work, on a regular basis, so it's nearly impossible for me to get stuck in a rut.

I have lots and lots of hand calls, many I recieved on the premise that I owe the maker a "success photo", so I constantly trade off which calls I carry and use.
I'd like to eventually live up to my end of the bargain.

Where I live, I also have the advantage of many different types of terrain, and ecosystems, to choose from.
It's (almost) always something new and different for me, lots of cold calling in places I've never been before (it's hard to justify going back where you already got skunked).
I don't think there's a single stand I have called more than twice

Leonard,

That law doesn't apply to me. A "return" of nothing, is in little risk of diminishing.

"Sometimes this stuff isn't as easy as they say it is."

Gee, ya think?

Somehow I think it also can't be as hard as they (the perenial newbs, aka. me) say it is.
But it definitely isn't easy.

Krusty
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 29, 2005, 03:53 AM:
 
Krusty,

I don't know you or your history. You've stated you've never called/shot a coyote. Have you ever tried to spot one, then call it in?

If you have "rolling foothills" broken up by roads. I'd wait until I got a fluff "quite snow". Sunny out, wind out of a Northerly direction. Then go "spottin" the rest will fall into play
 

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Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on October 29, 2005, 06:49 AM:
 
Moved a hijacking. Loren.

[ October 29, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]
 

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Posted by LionHo (Member # 233) on October 29, 2005, 10:25 AM:
 
There's probably some subtle distinction to be made between persistence and stubborness, but I'm not sure I know what it is quite yet, myself.

I developed plenty of both in my first couple of years of attempts at calling a Bobcat to the camera. Eventually, became pretty good at it. Which has proven useful to remember ever since, in my nearly two decades-old quest of trying to call a Mountain Lion to the camera.

Speaking of ML, how long do y'all figure until ole Krusty figures out he's supposed to become a MOUNTAIN LION hunter? He's already called one or more in, hasn't he? Why this damned obsession with some scruffy ole coyote, when he's got LIONS to obsess about instead? Now THAT'S what I call stubborn!

And the rest of you, shame on you! It's almost like you've all been brainwashing this poor guy to think mincemeat is the only pie worth eating, then you send him out looking high and low for them, nary a mince to be found in the whole feline fiefdom--all the while he keeps stubbing his toes on pumpkins

LionHo

[ October 29, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: LionHo ]
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on October 29, 2005, 11:18 AM:
 
Thank you for your responses guys.

Very good points Leonard, many of the things you mentioned I would consider adjustments to wind, habitat, and the area being hunted. Like NASA pointed out not being set in your ways may open up new areas and opportunities.

I should have been more specific I guess. So to Leonard I guess I could ask on your full blown attempt at “confusion scent” how many positive reactions of the coyotes did it take to get that tool placed in the bag and not in the round file. At what point did you start all but double dog daring the animals to go for your wind?

If the first coyote that comes in and sees your decoy turns inside out to get out of there is that enough to put the decoy on ebay?

If you spot a coyote and you stalk in on him and let out a lonesome howl and he turns tail and runs do you abandon howling all together? I did for a while until Wiley E and Rich H encouraged me to be more persistent or stubborn which ever you prefer. LOL

In my case I recognize the benefit of electronics in some situations. I’m currently playing around with it trying to gain some confidence in it so after a failure or lack of response I can objectively evaluate what may have gone wrong. As things stand right now several blank stands in a row are blamed on a caller that I don’t have confidence in as of yet. Always blame the “New Guy” right?

[ October 29, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Bryan J ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 29, 2005, 11:43 AM:
 
With the mist, you have to qualify.

First, you need to see what happens when a coyote moves downwind on you, many times. You will get to know what to expect; which is a big fat goose egg. You begin to try all sorts of ways to get the animal to stop before he gets down wind. This works, but sometimes he will not stop, he is going downwind, and will be gone.

Once you see this failure enough times, and learn how to use mist and set up for a clear shooting lane downwind, you will notice a distinct difference in behavior when they arrive downwind.

What's different? They hang around instead of putting more distance between you and him. It might not last very long, but you now have an excellent opportunity to shoot a coyote facing right at you; stock still.

How often does a coyote circle downwind? Depends. Some days, they all circle downwind. Some days, they don't bother.

You won't get a guarantee with mist, but if you have a coyote stepping out in the open, downwind for a few seconds before he hightails it, you should start to understand where your advantage is.

The biggest mistake people make is in not misting soon enough. You need a STRONG scent downwind to cause him to check up while he considers the pros and cons of the situation.

The pros are, he smells the scent-rabbit and coyote. The con is that he smells human also. There is your confusion and your opportunity.

Man, I get tired of going over this crap step by step, but if that is what it takes for it to sink in, I guess it's worthwhile?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 29, 2005, 11:56 AM:
 
Bryan, if for example a decoy I have doesn't work the first 3-4 times I use it, is it the decoys fault? It could be me. Maybe something I'm not considering when I use it? Something that's negligible when not using it, but important when I do. Decoy placement in relation to your position with the wind? I'm still not convinced I've got that one figured out to the point of high percentages. I don't use my decoys that often, but I like the idea of knowing how to use them if I want. Just another arrow in the quiver.
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on October 29, 2005, 02:01 PM:
 
Leonard, thanks, I appreciate the effort and resisting temptation of saying check the archives something that is common on other boards but I rarely see it here. I was not questioning the value of misting, sorry to be a PITA.

I guess everyone has their own way of going through being optimistic enough to try something, seeing positive, negative or negligible input from the critters and determining if it is worth pursuing it further for them.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 29, 2005, 10:03 PM:
 
I'm sorry, Bryan. It isn't your fault, so I shouldn't make snotty remarks. But, trust me, it is frustrating.

When the subject of misting comes up, you would think I was giving a double time lecture on rocket science. None of it seems to stick? And, it's so simple!

But one dumb remark from somebody, about how you can't ever fool a coyote's nose with a friggin "cover scent" and it seems like everybody develops a mental short circuit.

I get asked all the time, why don't I sell the stuff, make money from it, that sort of thing. I don't want the money. This is free, but every once in a while I DO wonder why I try to help people that don't want help....but need help.

Excuse the rant. LB
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 29, 2005, 10:21 PM:
 
Leonard,

I'm probably one of the worst when it comes to blasting cover scents. I don't believe you will ever fool a coyote into not smelling a human, even a man soaked head to toe in skunk musk.

I've sold several hundred ounces of skunk musk to be used as a cover scent, and thought people were damned fools for buying it.

At the same time, I fully believe in your Misting idea. It's the same thing I do for trapping. That coyote knows I was there, but I offer him an odor so good he can't resist hanging around just a little longer to check it out. For my use, he hangs around long enough to put his foot on a 2" pan. For you use, he hangs around just long enough for you to shoot.

It's the idea that cover scents will Mask human odor, that I have a problem with. I don't think any scent will do that, but a good mist, ( Or lure) will cause that coyote to ignore his fear long enough to get shot or trapped.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 29, 2005, 10:56 PM:
 
Yeah, that's about it, Tim. I have no doubt that a coyote can smell human mixed in with the Magic Mist. But, you know, he can handle more than one smell at a time, and sometimes the Mist takes precedence for a little while.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by LionHo (Member # 233) on October 30, 2005, 10:22 AM:
 
When I first heard about Leonard's misting-for-coyotes thing a couple of years back, I liked it so much I adapted it to my mountain lion quest by ordering up a couple of bottles of ML-in-heat pee, and dusting off an old atomizer.

Nowadays, I sometimes suddenly recall that little pipsqueak hairspray bottle rattling around in the bowels of my pack, typically just after I've noticed a virulently rotten funk wafting through my truck and assaulting my nostrils--and am scrambling to find the source of ignition.

(Sorry Tim, swamp-kitty spray seems positively fragrant in comparision to two year-old panther piss.)

So to get back to BryanJ's original question, there are myriad little techniques and technical tweaks that absent the positive feedback loop of a charging predator, tend to fall off my radar screen. In this case the little bottle somehow got bumped down the list to just another quasi-essential item--items which taken in totality add up to a 30 lb pack!--that I rarely remember to put in play anymore.

But thanks for the reminder, guys... just this past Thursday morning I was out calling with ML-in-heat shrieks, didn't stick it out but about 45 minutes on the stand, due mostly to choosing a spot a brushy and (piss?)poor view. Afterwards discovered fresh ML prints in a dry wash about 100 feet away.

Perhaps misting would have brought a cat out into the open?

And what is the expiration date on ML-in-heat-pee, anyway?

LionHo

[ October 30, 2005, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: LionHo ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 30, 2005, 11:31 AM:
 
Lionho, the problem with that is a cat doesn't have the instincts to circle downwind, like a coyote. They tend to trust their eyes a lot more, so if your cat is downwind, it is probably an accident?

BUT. If he is (just happens to be) downwind, the spray can't hurt, I believe that.

Maybe misting is a bit more complicated than I realized? Actually, at night, it's dynamite; day stands, really optional, except in heavier cover. You need to figure out how and where to use it, or it's just another item rolling around in your kit. But, it does work on coyotes, maybe foxes? Seldom cats.

Cats can smell, no doubt about it. Get them downwind of an attractive scent and they show interest. It is the difference in the nature of cats and dogs. Decoy time!

Good hunting. LB

edit: urine lasts from season to season, in my experience. But I filter it.

[ October 30, 2005, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 30, 2005, 11:42 AM:
 
Leonard
What do you use to filter? Coffee filters, Cotton balls in funnel? Dilute with any water or distilled?

Dennis
 

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Posted by LionHo (Member # 233) on October 30, 2005, 12:34 PM:
 
Yeah, I know Leonard, it's not the same, not as sure-fire. But since cats and coyotes are kinda night and day how they respond to a call, I figure it might just work anyhow. I can appreciate it how you're just trying to elicit a pause instead of flight reaction, to not have the dog instantly turn tail when he gets downwind and smells "human" (pause it long enough to drill it, anyway).

ML are typically stalkers, not terribly shy of human scent, and they do sometimes circle to get into a choice position for the final pounce. Since all this takes upwards of an hour sometimes, chances are excellent that a stray breeze will luff around enough to waft some she-scent in his direction...

Least that's been my rationale for carrying the pee all this time and risking the occasional leak. (Double-ziplock it--outside pocket--pray it never migrates inside the new F5 and 200-400VR zoom Nikkor).

LionHo
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 30, 2005, 01:20 PM:
 
LionHo,

I know that fox and coyote pee is still good for trapping after five years.

I brought several gallons when I moved from Indiana. I used to collect my own each winter.

I've just about a quart of coyote pee left. It will be 6 years old, at least, this winter, I'll start setting traps with it on Tuesday.
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on October 30, 2005, 01:53 PM:
 
Did any of you guys ever use noniodize salt to keep you,re pee fresh?...I hear that it works?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 30, 2005, 10:44 PM:
 
Dennis,

I use paint filters, the ones that are kind of fuzzy and thick? Any will do, even coffee filters, if that is all you have? But, the reason is to strain out the solid particles that tend to clog a mister. Then, of course, I cut it in half with water, I don't use pure urine.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on November 02, 2005, 04:05 PM:
 
Leonard, No apologies necessary on this end, its all good.

I’m just struggling a little, I’ve been playing around with an electronic call and so far the response rate is more than double the stands per coyote compared to the stands that I used hand calls, and the first response I would have expected the coyote to run me over given where and when I was calling. Still lots of factors to consider for the short comings, and likely isn’t necessarily the calls fault. Those stands would likely have been blank if I were hand calling too I guess. LOL I didn’t think adding an electronic box would make me feel like I was starting all over again. I will go out and be more stubborn and make this thing work.

Thanks guys for your responses.
 

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Posted by LionHo (Member # 233) on November 02, 2005, 07:07 PM:
 
Hey Bryan,

You've piqued my curiosity. I'm thinking there could be more to this than just a lack of persistence. I'd be willing to help you try to quantify what differences might exist between your handcalling and ecalling. What specific handcalls were you using previously, and what ecaller/sounds are you using that is netting you this result?

LionHo
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on November 02, 2005, 08:04 PM:
 
Leonard, I use a nose spray bottle, they have one large size that seems to last all day the way I use it.. Is there something better? or is that sufficient?
Just how much are you spraying at a stand, couple squirts or an ounce atomized in the area?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 02, 2005, 08:50 PM:
 
It's just one of those things, Vic. I can't tell you how long to make your stands, or where to set up, you just have do do what feels right.

Same with the spray. The more I see a pattern, like they all seem to go downwind, that's when I'm getting that stuff out there as much as possible, at least a squirt a minute, maybe two a minute?

Seems like a small nasal spray bottle would last a couple stands? I usually have more than one. You have to clean them every day, run a little warm water through them, or they will clog up, for sure. The finer the mist, the better, but they clog easier, and they freeze easier, so I keep the bottles in a pocket, not on my belt, like higgins.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on November 02, 2005, 09:17 PM:
 
Thanks LionHo, I hope this isn’t because I liked your use of the word stubborn. I just liked it and picked up on it. (I have a tendency to do that) One of these days I will work up the intestinal fortitude to go out and try to stub my toe on a pumpkin. LOL

This will be the third season that I have not used an off the shelf call. I use an assortment of closed reed calls from the shops of Lance Homman, Sly Dog, Kevin Lukins, Jason LaMarr and Rick Robinson. I have also started to take a shine to an open reed from seeinspots. This time of year I play mostly the bunny blues but can manipulate some of those calls to make some bird noises as well for later in the season.

I didn’t buy the most expensive unit out there but not the cheapest either. It is a FoxPro 416 with remote I have been using the sounds that the ravens, hawks and magpies seem to like best, snowshoe hare (drives the ravens nuts), rabbit #1, and Aggr Jack. I approach the stand the same as I would if I were hand calling, generally I set the call 30-40 yards away generally angling into the wind at about a 45 degree angle. I let it play continuously because that seems to be what the guys who I have come to respect do. I ordered a cable this week so I could add some sounds that I produced that I would have a little more confidence in.

I have called 3 critters with it. The first was a coyote that I described above, had I had the same response while hand calling I would have thought someone was here yesterday and got busted, or he had come a running in to a real situation and promptly got his backside handed to him by a more dominant coyote, or got beat nearly to death by the wings of a golden eagle or something along those lines. Then Sunday I brought up the second coyote, he showed more enthusiasm and I’m more encouraged. Yesterday, I saw a grey colored figure moving slowly just below a ridge line never to be seen again. I don’t know for sure because it was a long way out but it acted like bobcat and that is what I’m going to call it mostly to keep me encouraged about this call. Officially it is unknown but I sure hope it wasn’t a coyote responding like that.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2005, 01:04 AM:
 
It took a while to get to the specifics of the original question, but as I understand it; you are a hand caller that is starting to use a Foxpro, and are not too sure if it fits your style, based on a handfull of responses?

First of all, I want you to read my lips. Electronic calls work. Of that, there is no doubt. Maybe you just need to find a technique that works for you, but that small sample of stands won't tell you anything. You seem to be very negative about a slow, cautious response. It is possible that when you get the "hard chargers" you talked about, you have many opportunities to kill them coming and going, due to the lack of significant cover. Yeah, it's great when they basically have nowhere to hide. Some places, all they need to do is duck a couple feet into brush and you will never see them again. In that type of stuff, a hard charger is the most difficult coyote to handle.

Here, let me add a paragraph from your email:

quote:

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I threw howling out of some of my stands that require the coyotes to run me over based on 4 consecutive coyotes that came in slow a cautious, I dropped the howls and they seemed to be running me over again.

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