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Author
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Topic: The Adaptive Coyote...
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 19, 2006 12:08 PM
Are coyotes more intellegent today than say 30 or 40 years ago?
Are they harder to bring in close than they used to be?
The reason I ask these questions is that I've been watching some DVD's lately and they say how extremely important Camo is to be successful as a coyote caller.
Then I got to thinking that there really wasn't much in the way of camo prior to the late 70's early 80's,and even if there was some out there, most people didn't use it much at least around here.So why were so many coyotes,fox and bobcats killed back then if camo is so important.
I know the general answer will be well it can't hurt to wear camo.I for one don't use camo much if ever and think it is overrated.I also see guys like Q and Danny B. that have shot a hell of a lot more coyotes than most guys can claim and they don't wear camo either.So I guess it just makes me wonder what all the fuss is about.
I'd like to hear from some of the old timers that have had it both ways,(no camo vs camo).I really haven't seen the difference from when i've used camo and not used it.Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2006 01:37 PM
Chad, against my will I have become one of the "old timers".
The coyotes have absolutely changed in their responses to distress calls. In the 70s and early 80s a dry stand was usually the exception and multiples were frequent. Different today.
However to answer your question regarding your examples, the answer will be different for different
areas.
You, Danny and Q and others who call in relatively open areas and commonly see and shoot the animal at relatively long ranges will not have the same camo requirements that callers east and west, who commonly call in heavy cover, will. I guarantee that anyone wearing proper camo, that gives the coyotes ability to detect them the same respect that they give to the turkey, who calls while scanning thick cover at close range and expects to first detect a coyotes face staring back at them from the brush will definitly see more of those faces if they are very well concealed.
That type of camo just isn't neccessary for a caller that detects them several hundred yards away and remains very still while following their approach through a scope.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 19, 2006 02:47 PM
Rich,
I respect both your experience and understanding of coyote behavior more than most any callers I know.Both Professional and personal.And I totally agree that the coyotes have adapted over the years to become more educated to distress sounds and howling that makes total sense to me.
I guess I just don't see it with the camo issue.I wear a carhart jacket(usually the moss color,somewhat faded out now)and the brown duck pants(also faded quite a bit).My gun is not camo but is matte finished along with my scope,with a black synthetic stock.No face masks,or gloves except when it is real cold.
Where it is true I call in pretty open country,there are a few of the shots I take at coyotes have been under 50 yards,and I would say most if not all the times I spook a coyote at that close range is because I move to quickly for a shot,or to get in position for a shot.I've had quite a few experiences where a coyote will stare in my direction from 30 yards away looking for the source of the sounds and still can't pick me out(because I didn't move).
I guess the main reason I think camo is so overrated is that where I call there are alot of different variables(terrain)where I call,sage brush,cedar trees,tan grass,alphalfa fields,river bottoms,some areas are dark and some are quite light.Thats alot of different camo patterns to tote around from stand to stand.LOL
I do use a white camo when most of the area I call in snow covered.Good Hunting Chad
[ February 19, 2006, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted February 19, 2006 03:42 PM
UTcaller; Instead of thinking of camo as a 'thing' try thinking of it as a 'concept'.
Sitting still in the shade against a good backing with the sun behind you is as much a part of camo as the latest designer pattern. If your Carharts are blending in, they're part of the entire camo package.
To a degree, we've been seduced by the advertizers who have convinced us that unless we have the latest pattern, gizmo or geegaw we may not succeed.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 19, 2006 04:35 PM
Kokopelli,
Some days, you sure do a hellofa job of putting my thoughts into words.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 19, 2006 05:13 PM
Kokopelli,
You are totally correct.I think that's my point about camo.If you wear clothing that will blend into alot of different terrains (tans,greens,browns,or darker greys)when you're sitting in the shade that's all you need.Movement is the key to getting/not getting busted by a coyote.I don't think it is a pattern of camo that will save you from getting busted.
I think like you said alot of people are seduced by the latest pattern of camo,then go out call some coyotes with it on. Then come back with the idea that the reason why coyotes come in close is because they have there new camo on.LOL
I didn't start this thread for the purpose of bashing "Camo diehards",just to see why alot of people feel it is so important(critical as some DVD'S have advocated).FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted February 19, 2006 06:25 PM
Tim & UTcaller; Thanx for the kind words. I do wear camo, I just don't get carried away with it. Movement is what seems to get me busted most of the time.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted February 19, 2006 06:41 PM
Today I had on mossy oak camo, we had a little snow and I chose to sit with a fence to my right, a dead cedar behind me and tan grass all around me. The only grey was the small fence post and the timber on the other side of the fence. About 5 minutes into the stand I spotted a coyote coming through the timber, he stopped less than 10 feet from me and searched for the dying rabbit. He never saw me until I slipped up and made eye contact with him, then he just backed away still unsure of what I was. This was the closest of the pair and neither one really busted me, even though from where they were, I was a big gray figure in a tan and white background. Camo is made to be sold but I'll still wear it, from a distance most of it turns into a muted color anyway.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted February 19, 2006 07:11 PM
I agree with,Rich Higgins..Camo helps break my outline in the eastern woods.Coyotes know when there is a new rock in the woods.[Damn!that wasn't there yesterday!! ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ]Rolled right up against the tree!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ..Oh!Crap!! there is another in the bushes!! Where the****did they come from? When you are up close and personal with a coyote,you take all the advantages you can get.I'm talking eastern woods,where everything is broken up with vegetation.Blending in isn't fool proof,but it helps. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Solid colors against a broken up background sticks out like a sore thumb. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2006 07:22 PM
Chad, for me and Tyler movement is not the problem, responding predators expect to see movement. It is when that movement draws their attention to the human form that the stand is busted. In our video there is a segment called "Hide in Plain Sight". Tyler and I set up on a freshly plowed hillside, not so much as a blade of grass, and we call in six coyotes and keep them there for 22 minutes, coaxing a 12 week old pup within 10-15 feet. I assure you it would not have happened in Carharts. Kokopelli is right as usual, camo is a concept.
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted February 19, 2006 08:08 PM
So lack of eye contact is more important than the camo. Cool. Been wondering why I can sit there in full camo, not move a single muscle and have a Coyote come in, look at me, and explode. Need to get some camo shades I guess. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 19, 2006 08:13 PM
Melvin,
You bring up a good point.From what i've seen with 99% of the camo it is designed to "blend in" to your surroundings.Which I think is kind of a joke to begin with because once you get back 50 yards it just looks like a blob of color anyway.LOL But that's beside the point.The other roughly 1% is designed to "breakup" your outline,and I think it has some merit.A perfect example of the camo I speak of is the Predator line of camo.Now I have seen this stuff work.The farther away you get it kind of just disappears.Because of the whites,and grays,with the black branches.I have a shirt with this pattern and have worn it a time or two.But again I really haven't seen a big benifit when using it.
Rich,
Before you "assure" me that carharts would not have worked for the situation that you spoke.Try using the carharts as an experiment next time so you can tell me that you tried it and it didn't work.I'm not saying it will for sure but at least try it before you say it won't work.LOL Good Hunting Chad
[ February 19, 2006, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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brad h
Knows what it's all about
Member # 57
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posted February 19, 2006 08:38 PM
Carhart tan is my favorite camo, snow or no snow. I've seen black Carharts used in open country and in snow, and we still called in coyotes.
A coyote can be called in to gun range (100-200 yards) here in open country wearing about anything as long as the caller sets up appropriately and knows what he's doing.
If the object is to get coyotes as close as posible and keep them there as long as posible, I would probably try to blend in a little better.
This is based on everything I've experienced. The only exceptions would be the hang ups, and what I would assume to be the "called in and missed" and the Johnny Knoxville coyotes that come in head first at full bore without a second thought.
Brad
Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2006 09:26 PM
Chad, I don't have to try the Carharts. I have tried over the years a large number of combinations of different camos and it is my opinion that none, regardless of color or pattern, icluding solids such as the Carhart, regardless of brand name, that do not disguise the human form would have been effective under those conditions. Sorry the assurance offended you, I apologize. Won't happen again.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 19, 2006 09:39 PM
Rich,
You didn't offend me at all bud.Just pulling your chain alittle.I know what you are using as camo and I can see how it works for your purpose of calling them close and keeping them there for as long as possible.I guess I am speaking for us guys that just call them and shoot them as soon as we are presented a good shot.Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2006 09:46 PM
Chad, in our video there is a segment called "A Calling Tutorial" "an ode to Bill Martz" in the Camoflauge clip Tyler calls a coyote into about 30 yards and the coyote then sits down and watches Tyler continue to call. Tyler was wearing a red smoking jacket and a big white easter bunnie head complete with long white ears. No human form. Camo is a concept.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 19, 2006 11:09 PM
Boy, I'm proud of these last few exchanges; you guys have class. Bravo!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted February 20, 2006 05:42 AM
Many factors to consider, for sure. I believe some of the [locals] have mapped out, all if not most of the [structure] in their territory. When they see something, whether abstract or partially blended. Is the [alarming factor].
I also agree, there is also a [geographical factor] in play here. Not to mention hunting pressure.
A few more thoughts on the matter; Some coyotes have different intelligence/experience levels[old vs. young, eh] ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
The older they get, their organ function deminish's. The [eyes & hearing specifically]...Same as a domestic dog.
I've had coyotes pick me out, while still & slowly moving. While wearing [all White] on a snowfly backdrop, from far away.
A coyote shot @ around here. Will act completely different than one that hasn't been. Age isn't a factor on this. They remember, some better than others.
The difference between a Coyote & a Red Fox's vision [over distance]. The Red, doesn't have a chance.
I've stalked in & been 15' from a Red, while out in the wide open. Never could pull that off on any Coyote. Closest I've got to a Coyote out in the open was 50'. That's only because he was looking the other way & the wind was rippin
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 20, 2006 07:37 AM
Rich,
I agree that the human form has alot to do with spooking most animals not just coyotes.I have hunted geese before with the aid of a horse.We would lead the horse out into the field where the geese are resting then run the horse off and the fun begins.LOL So I agree that most animals(especially wild ones) have a natural fear of man it makes sense that to take away that human form would help.But please don't tell anyone else about the rabbit costume concept.That's all we need is to see a bunch of giant rabbits out in the desert trying to call in coyotes.LOL
Just messin with ya Rich.
I guess what I was getting at was that some guys try to have you think that a coyotes abilities to detect you are alot greater than they actually are.And No I'm not saying coyotes are dumb either.
Camo is just one of the things I am speaking of.Most of you know that I have ALWAYS believed in calling with the wind.I have heard everything under the sun about how stupid this type of calling is,"you have got to call with the wind in your face or a cross wind to have any success as a caller"."coyotes can catch your scent from 2 miles away if they get downwind".LOL But I have had a hell of a lot of success from following Ed Sceery's advice many many moons ago."That's where the coyote wants to go"(downwind).FWIW Good Hunting Chad
[ February 20, 2006, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted February 20, 2006 07:53 AM
quote:
In our video there is a segment called "Hide in Plain Sight". Tyler and I set up on a freshly plowed hillside, not so much as a blade of grass, and we call in six coyotes and keep them there for 22 minutes,
Very few mid-westeners have a good conception on how(or why) that works. That's one of the secrets for calling coyotes in the Mid-West. Mis-matched camo is a must.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted February 22, 2006 06:45 PM
I only wear camo when I'm not with Higgins.LOLOL
In AZ if you wear a sombrero, coyotes will think you're just another illegal alien and don't give you another thought.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 22, 2006 07:38 PM
I'll add two points to this dicussion and leave it at that, at least until I think of somehting else to say.
First, people (myself included) often point to Quinton as not wearing camo. You're right - he doesn't. He wears an old beat up green Carhart type coat, faded, bloodied, stained and worn out brown duck type pants and a tannish-greyish oil cloth-like ballcap. His choice in camo is what we might call "Monet", after the artist. From a distance, it blends as well as any effective pattern and looks great. Up close, it's a friggin' train wreck. The point is this - Q may not choose to wear camoufalge clothes in the literal sense of the name. But, the wear patterns and appearance of his clothes do very effectively serve the purpose of camo. (No offense intended Quinton. It works well for you.) Also, I know for a fact that he owns and uses NatGear snow coveralls when it snows in the panhandle.
Second, it's been my personal experience that coyotes - and bobcats, for that matter - do NOT like eye contact. To canines, including dogs, direct eye contact is a sign of aggression. Watch two dogs fixin' to go at a dust up. They'll do the shoulder check thing and look indirectly at one another. All it takes is for one to turn his head a single degree and as soon as those eyes meet, it's game on. I used to train several hundred muzzled racing greyhounds. You learned to identify a pending dog fight before it got rolling or you were in some serious deep snow and fast. Ever tried to break up a sixty dog fight by yourself?
Also, I always encourage my partners to wear a boonie or a ballcap and to wear it low over the eyes to prevent eye contact. I've had coyotes at nearly arm's reach looking right thru me, then we make eye contact. At up close and personal distance, you see their pupils dilate and they get the classic "oh shit" look on their faces.
Interestingly, I've noted that coyotes will bust out at the first inadvertant move when using distress sounds, but they almost seem to find comfort in some movement when responding to howls. Almost like they expect to see something the size of a coyote, and when they do, it piques their curiosity to almost like a bobcat. I've howled them in to show guys it can be done and, in one case, had a big male thirty yards in front of me on open ground and I held him there for 12 minutes while I occasionally gave him the Princess Di wave time and again. All he did was take a short step forward and cock his head to get a better look. I've never had one do that coming into a prey distress sound. Anyone else notice this or am I crazy?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted February 22, 2006 08:25 PM
Cdog911, I first noticed the eye contact thing while bow hunting deer, they don't know what you are if you're still but make eye contact and they bug out fast. As far as I can tell once you make eye contact with any animal it knows something ain't right. Kind of like looking at that "Monet" picture trying to figure out what it is then suddenly seeing 2 eyes looking back at you I guess.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 23, 2006 10:34 AM
Cdog911,
Funny you should mention pulling the bill of your cap down low to shade your eyes. I have been doing that for a long time and just failed to mention it to anyone before. Good tip!
Rich Higgins,
What do you think of this new "Leafy wear" type of camo? I mean the ones with the floppy leaf like look. I haven't tried the stuff in the field, but the idea makes sense to me. Maybe second only to a guilly suit. I have a guilly suit, but have never worn it while hunting. Big and bulky thing ya know.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 23, 2006 12:47 PM
On eye contact. I think there is something to it, under certain conditions.
A condition where I don't believe it has any merit is watching a coyote approach from quite a ways out. Whether he is coming straight on a string or is circling down wind, I don't think he feels your eyes burning a hole in him? In short, I don't think it matters at all?
But, this is where some people process information and form conclusions that cannot be supported. I will offer a few examples.
Bangladesh- Because of monsoons and flooding and natives drowning and being washed downstream, tigers have developed a taste for human flesh, eat the corpses in season and hunt live humans when the supply is depleated. So, the experimental solution is for the woodcutters, etc that walk the jungle trails to wear a mask on the back of their head with large painted eyes. The theory is that the tiger thinks he cannot approach from "behind" as they always to to avoid detection. So, this is a situational awareness deal, and the tiger is avoiding eye contact. If you can believe the researchers.....
Second. I put out hummingbird feeders around my house. When I get too close for a bird standing guard, as they frequently do, they come up behind my head and buzz their wings in a threat warning. Never has it happened that they come up and face me and do this and when I turn around, they split.
Third. Birds again. I also feed seed to the birds and have a few resident mourning doves that come into the yard every day. When I am pruning and/or gardening, they will come down and perch in the Lemon tree or on the block wall, or get on the ground and walk around. The second that I turn my head, and they have reason to believe they have been seen, they fly off. This happens all day long.
Therefore, as I believe that a coyote is no different in his reactions than any other wild animal, he only reacts to eye contact when he sees you look directly at him while he is looking at you.
This is no different that catching the eye of another driver at a four way stop sign. They say that it works the same in a honky tonk on a Saturday night? Two life forms looking at eachother is what we are talking about. You are not going to put the "Whammy" on a coyote by watching his approach unless he is close enough to see the "whites of your eyes" as they used to say.
That's my half baked opinion. Opposing points of view are welcome and encouraged.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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