The New Huntmastersbbs!: Number of sounds on stand?

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 31, 2006, 04:08 PM:

Ok; seems we have a consensus on how long an average stand will run, 15-20 minutes, for daytime stands, according to our inhouse experts,and Im in total ageement with that figure,after that, like one guy mentioned, it's diminishing returns.
Next, I want to get an idea of how many different sounds the usual stand will have us use? Im pretty basic,and usually use one,but I will mix in another,usually a hurt coyote distress or pup squeal,if Ive wacked one,but for the most part....one monotonous sound, either jackrabbit,cottontail or woodpecker.
On average, how many different sounds will your average stand go thru, or do you stick with one distress sound at a time, per stand?
I so often hear on various posts how a guy might mow thru his sound list, like he is hoping to find that "one" sound that finally draws the coyote. Ive been with only a couple guys that had the compulsion to throw half a dozen different sounds out,and have never seen that method successful.
So whats the consensus on this one?

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on July 31, 2006, 04:16 PM:

Usually one food sound & sometimes one coyote sound, of course from time to time I throw a fart in the mix but I`m not sure it`s to my benefit.

Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on July 31, 2006, 04:28 PM:

One.

It might be interesting to limit the question to the number of sounds before the shot...???

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 31, 2006, 04:39 PM:

One, if I'm using electronic calls. When I hand call, I sometimes spend the last minute or so doing bird squeals on my coaxer.

Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on July 31, 2006, 04:45 PM:

4 or 5 is not on common for me, especially when nothing is showing where I beleive there most certainly should be something listening!

About the only time I go through any one set with just one sound, is when all the action showed up and I didn't have time to change sounds!

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 31, 2006, 05:05 PM:

Usually with handcalls, only one but I do mix in some pup whines every now and then.

When I used the JS preymaster at night, you could expect 2 or sometimes 3 sounds on a stand, never intentionaly but it happened none the less.

[ July 31, 2006, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 31, 2006, 05:32 PM:

i will usually use 1 or 2. 3 is usually the limit. early in the season i stick with prey distress and some pup distress. later on in the season i start to use howls mixed in with the prey and pup distress.
i start off a stand with a higher pitched fast- paced sound and usually slow it down as i go.

[ July 31, 2006, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]

Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on July 31, 2006, 05:46 PM:

Two.

I don't mind changing sounds toward the end of the stand.

I've had luck several times using that second sound. Maybe it worked, maybe the incomer was already coming in? Maybe half and half, who the hell knows.

Brad

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2006, 06:16 PM:

The question is more complicated than it seems, at first blush.

With cats, it never hurts to change sounds, in fact, hitting the right one can bring them charging, whereas before, they were content to play peekaboo.

Now, with coyotes, no doubt a hurt pup can get one moving that was hung up. Coaxer works in similiar fashion.

However, I almost always let a stand play out with one sound. NEXT stand, I am inclined to change to something different, something they (hopefully) have not heard before? Generally speaking, I like a jackrabbit, a yellowhammer, or a gray fox pup. On those other occasions, I like javalina, baby goat, deer bleat; stuff like that.

But, I do not like to change sounds on stand without a reason. One such reason is when I'm in a high concentration and they are playing cute, not showing, but I know damned well they are there! My solution has been fox and coyote fight sounds, or coyote barking at prey, attempting to dig it out, or sounds of a coyote killing a chicken or biting a rodent.

At night, I find that a sound like digging, scattering pebbles, thrashing branches, even fingernails scratching a metal surface can trigger an approach from cover.

But, I don't see a lot of value in switching sounds just because you have not called something already. Especially while you have an incoming animal....unless he is still way out there, say 300-400 yards.

Anyway, that's what I mean by "complicated". There are many good reasons for changing sounds, but I don't do it, just for the heck of it.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 31, 2006, 06:36 PM:

Last year, with just one or two exceptions, and not counting the occasional coyote vocalization, I used exactly one sound, the same sound, on every stand for the whole year. A jackrabbit in dsitress. Had a pretty good year, too.

- DAA

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on July 31, 2006, 07:16 PM:

Normally one sound, either Cottontail, Jackrabbit or one of those crazy African sounds. Sometimes if Im having a rough day, I will maybe change sounds for the last 3 minutes or so.

That dont include howling. I normally dont howl much unless they are pairing late in the winter. Maybe I should?

Right or wrong, thats what I do and thats what you asked.

Posted by bandit (Member # 901) on July 31, 2006, 07:51 PM:

For coyote, I use 1 call (distress) per stand. Possibly with a few thrown in pup yips/howls. I'm a believer in not educating them too much, in fact I keep track of what sounds I used at which stand so next visit I throw a different sound out there.

Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on July 31, 2006, 08:46 PM:

4-12

Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 216) on July 31, 2006, 09:41 PM:

I usually only use 1 distress call other than pup distress that I will mix in and this past year I used crow sounds on top of distress or mixed in and had good results even used mainly crow sounds with little bit of distress sound of some sort with a bunch of coyote sounds did well with that will be doing it more next year.

Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on August 01, 2006, 09:10 AM:

Bobcats...2 or more

Lions...2 or more

Fox...2

Coyotes.....depending on the time of year 2 or more.

Bears...2

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on August 01, 2006, 12:43 PM:

DAA,

Speaking of jackrabbit sounds,I am assuming you mean on your FX3,right?Is it one of the factory sounds(if so what number is it)or one of your own sounds that you recorded yourself.Thanks

Oh yea,I either use a distress sound with my Critr call,or one sound with the FX3,and limited howling.Good Hunting Chad

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 01, 2006, 03:41 PM:

Chad, it's one that I recorded. Foxpro has been putting it on callers for quite awhile too though. But I don't know what name or number they use for it. Last time I talked to them about it, they told me it was their most popular sound though.

- DAA

Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on August 02, 2006, 08:42 PM:

Most of the time I just use a lone howl and follow that with a jackrabbit distress and usually that's all it takes. I lip squeak to get lined out once in awhile. Then sometimes I just use hurt pup all alone with nothing else.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 02, 2006, 09:12 PM:

I use one sound mostly at a stand and that is a recording of live cotton tail or a baby jack. I make 2-3 stands in a range unit and if i don't get any takers on the first two then i will use a female invatation howl with rabbit screams.

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 03, 2006, 08:59 AM:

Hawkeye,

Interesting, man! All I've ever called with crow sounds are lots and lots of crows! I've given it a fair try though! I'm thinking I ought to give it a try with a shotgun one of these days!

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 03, 2006, 09:03 AM:

Ooops, I got off topic there.

I use only one call per stand. If it isn't working after a few minutes or so. I go to trying to sound hysterical on the call. But that's only if the plain old waa waa's aren't working right away.

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on August 03, 2006, 10:56 AM:

It really all depends. I will almost always run at least 3 distress sounds. Not counting coyote vocals, just counting distress sounds, And I use puppy distress and wines and cries on every stand.

But, if you count coyote vocals it will run up to 5-6 sounds per stand. On almost ever stand, unless a coyote shows fast.

I dont run the regular whaaa whaaa sounds for rabbit distress. I run the scale, from High to low and lots of pitch changes in between, wines, moans, cries, screams, with lots of feeling!

On gut feeling stands were Im am sure im calling and there is a coyote there I may run threw every sound I have before calling off the stand.

This is hand calling. I almost never run all elc calls on a stand but if I do they will be at least two diffrent sounds from the caller. And some hand calls mixed in, even if it is howls, but I howl on almost every stand.

But I will say the order I use them will vary alot, and depend on what area I am calling in. Along with the chance of calling a cat or fox.

Brent

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 03, 2006, 11:51 AM:

I mostly stick to one sound, but I will change up on calls at times. Meaning that I might start with a peewee and switch over to a standard or blaster some where during the stand. I usually try to maintain somewhat of the same rhythm and cadence but the pitch might vary some between the calls. Depending on the day, some pitches carry better than others so I do try to keep that in mind.

quote:
I dont run the regular whaaa whaaa sounds for rabbit distress. I run the scale, from High to low and lots of pitch changes in between, wines, moans, cries, screams, with lots of feeling!

Brent Not disagreeing with you on this but for a while I used some of the bite type calls. Very easy to do all those things with one of them. It seemed to me that when doing that my percentages went down. No real way to put a number on it, but finally I just started asking myself "What are you trying to sound like?" I quit using them.

Dennis

Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on August 03, 2006, 04:49 PM:

When I use several different sounds, it's not that I'm "fishing" for the "right" sound, but rather I'm trying to create a "scene".
One sound that I like to start with is, an excited yip, something that I visualize when a dog/coyote is in a chase after something. This is something I've never seen a coyote do, but my dog used to a lot [Roll Eyes]

!! I may do 30 seconds of yips and then immidiately I will go to a distress of either cottontail or jack. If I happen to be using a not so loud call, and nothing shows up in about 5 to 7 minutes, I may change over to somthing louder. I hunt open country and I like to reach over the next hill. Then, often times, if at the 10-12 minute mark, I still don't have a visual on an incomer, I may do a few ki yi's! And if somewhere in there, I see a customer coming, I then switch to lip squeeks alone, which seldom they can't refuse to come further for more investigation!
So, there would be 4 or 5 sounds in a single set! And when I throw in coyote vocals, the numbers could go a few higher!

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on August 03, 2006, 05:51 PM:

Most often only one distress sound per stand.

I usually throw another sound out there like a pup distress after the shot. If I get that "gut" feeling or have one hang up out of good range I'll throw another lure out. Use some vocals at times also.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 03, 2006, 06:56 PM:

KeeKee and I call just about the same way all around, set up, time on stand, the calls we use, the sounds, duration etc. Kinda weird since we live 2000 miles apart.
I read some of JH's posts in the Decoy thread on the darkside. After shoveling through the pompous and condescending Zen BS I was kinda surprised that I agreed with just about everything he had to say about time on stand and call selections and for basically the same reasons. Strange.

Vic said in an earlier post that any coyote that responds after the 10 or 15 minute mark just happened to travel within hearing range at that particular time.
I repectfully disagree. I know of a number of different areas that contain coyotes 24/7 and I absolutely know that if I blow a call a coyote will hear me. Sometimes they come in with little begging, sometimes I have to drag them in by the ears, sometimes they just refuse. The coyote in the video that Mattie ran back and forth with on the heavily covered hillside took 27 minutes to come into view on top of the hill. It took another 10 minutes for it to sneak down to the bottom of the hill. Kitchen sink stand, I used a dozen different sounds. The den was two ridges over and there were always two or three coyotes at the den.

Tyler and I have video of a coyote crawling in to the stand on it's belly to check out all of the different sounds it had been hearing for 45 minutes.
Two years ago KeeKee and Tyler video'ed a coyote crawling in to check them out as well. I don't remember how long or how many sounds they used. Brent, do you ?
On a club hunt a couple of years ago Robb was calling from a ladder in thick creosote, Tyler and I were strung out downwind from him on our ladders. A coyote approached Robb and sat down about 75 yards from him just out of his view. Robb was going through his repertoir of intermediate and short range sounds and the coyote just sat and listened. After a few minutes I made a little sound that the coyote liked and it jumped up and loped directly at me. Tyler stopped it and shot it at about ten yards from his position. Since I don't kill the coyotes except on competition hunts I see this kind of thing often. I know without any doubt that coyotes will ignore certain sounds at certain times and be drawn to other sounds. If I am certain that a coyote can hear me I am willing to invest 30 or 45 minutes trying to offer something that appeals to that coyote at that particular time. Since coyotes will respond to calls for any of at least seven different reasons, it makes sense to me to try to offer as many sounds as it takes to cover all seven. We have 200 tapes full of coyotes that didn't particularly want to be there, but just had to sneak in and investigate the commotion.

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 03, 2006, 08:09 PM:

Rich; if a guy of your caliber disagrees with me, I ain't doin' to bad:)
Maybe I should have qualified that statement,although I couldn't find it in this thread,so Im not sure of the context, but that is my general belief. In my neck of the woods,I of course call areas I know traditionally hold coyotes,but that doesn't mean they will be there 24/7,at least not at the particular time I am, thats why it's called hunting. Im hunting them, and trust I can put myself in the general area they are hunting,or hope to. I don't call during denning season, which of course gives you an ace in the hole when you know of particular denning sites, so you have leg up knowing there is a coyote within ear shot.
Ive sat with guys who swore by that method at many a stand for 30 minutes or more,but like Ive said, for me, it's diminishing returns.Past that 15 minute mark, it doesn't turn enough coyotes to make me change my method. I suppose it's reasonable to presume a guy could sit for three hours in the same spot,and eventually call a coyote, but maybe not either. To my mind, after 15 minutes, thats what it is, maybe.
For my style of hunting,which so far, seems to be paying off as good as anyone elses style I know of, at least as far as number of coyotes called and shot in an average day,or year,15 minutes is plenty for me.
I can't imagine sitting for nearly an hour waiting for a coyote to show, knowing I could have made another stand in that time,counting drive time. There's only so many minutes in a good morning and evening of calling time,and I just try to squeeze the best possible minutes out of it I can?
Maybe If I was filming,I'd have a different outlook, for that "one" coyote I knew,hoped,wished was there, would maybe get caught on tape,and I'd be a happy camper.
Im a simpleton,nothing fancy or religious or mystic, I don't believe in that. I believe in scouting,looking at the ground,knowing coyotes are,or better worded, should be around,sneak a short ways from my truck,call for 15 minutes,kill a coyote, or two,then drive to next stand. I try to repeat that scenario five to six times in the morning,and three to four times in the evening for a days hunt. If I can put four or five coyotes in the back of the truck at the end of the day,Im a damned happy camper.
Now.....if I had one of those Higgins howlers, I might be inclined to walk on the mystical side,and throw some howls at them, to help me "grow" in my calling journey:) I still have a knife with your name on it, if your interested?

Mmmmmmmmmmm....nomi-wacky-yotieeee, is that to many sylables for a mantra????????

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 03, 2006, 08:51 PM:

Vic, I absolutely do agree that your technique is best suited for you in your area. You simply can't argue with success. I'm simply sharing my beliefs concerning time on stand and and number of calls on stand that I know work in this area. I've hunted in 22 states with quite a few different callers and they have all evolved a different technique that works for them in their areas.
I believe that relatively short stands are surely the way to go in areas where the coyotes respond to prey distress with enthusiasm. But in areas of heavy pressure they generally just do not run into the stand anymore. Staying on stand for as long as it takes just makes good sense. Whether it is 10 minute stands in good areas or 45 minute stands in pressured areas. (pressured doesn't necessarily mean hunted or shot at)
Good callers evolve and adapt their calling and techniques to that which works on their coyotes in their areas. Just as you have done. As popular as calling is becoming in SE Az. and with many new callers applying more and more pressure on the coyotes down there, you are going to be fondly remembering "the good ol' days" before long too.

I have returned two orders of horns in the last three weeks. When I finally accept four horns (I'm not picky, they simply have to be beautiful and perfect) one will have your name on it. I'll be bringing at least two to the campout in a couple of months. Unless you can pry yourself out of SEAz. and come up here and do some calling with me, you will have to wait for the trade. [Smile]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 03, 2006, 09:01 PM:

Whether Higgins disagrees with AZ or not, I think he caught him in a "preference" mode. I also believe in the theory of diminishing returns. I really don't care if there is a coyote 500 yards away that is not interested in coming in until I hit him with just the right sound, 45 minutes past my attention span. Sure, if I know he's there, (as in, saw him) I'll dick around with him, but normally, I can do three stands in an hour, and skim the cream off the top, rather than play around with a smart coyote. As he (AZ) said; during prime time, I don't like to spend that much time in one spot. Middle of the day, different story.

There again, at the end of the day, it may even out, but it's all in how you like to approach the subject. I can do it both ways, but I "prefer" twelve minute stands, during prime time.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on August 03, 2006, 10:46 PM:

Rich if I remember right we ran three diffrent distress sounds, and some howls before we picked up the coyote comming in. Once we had him in site sneaking in, it was all coaxing after that.

Then once he was in gun range we used more coaxing sounds to put him in a place to shoot him.

But I would haft to review the footage to 100% sure.

I have alot of video of stands were it took several changes in calling to kill a coyote. And some of them took up to 45 min or more. I have one tape 60 min of nuthen but howling between me and a old male coyote. Only to have the shooter miss after I finally got him to show him self. And several more in the 45 min plus range.

Here in the east, if I got a coyote interested, Im going to do what ever I can or haft to do to get the shot on him. I may not call another coyote the rest of the day. But then again I may call several more?

Brent

[ August 03, 2006, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 04, 2006, 06:53 AM:

quote:
I really don't care if there is a coyote 500 yards away that is not interested in coming in until I hit him with just the right sound

Leonard, that is exactly the coyote that I am interested in. I will learn a great deal more from that coyote than I will from a happy, greedy youngster that charges in to the first sound.

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 04, 2006, 07:09 AM:

Rich H, Would you mind listing the sounds on that kitchen sink stand? I don't need any special order.

Dennis

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 04, 2006, 07:39 AM:

I must have A.D.D.

I'm not sure I could set anywhere for 45 minutes. If I have a coyote hung up at 500, I start crawling until I either get in range or he leaves.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2006, 08:38 AM:

I would not sit on a stand for 45 minutes... not knowing IF there was a coyote (unseen) 500 yards away.

What I would do if I happened to be aware of a coyote that was hung up, at 500 yards is open to speculation? I may flip him off, and I may work him, depends.

My position is: I will not call a stand for 45 minutes, without a good reason, therefore; working a problem coyote that is waiting for just the right sound is (most likely) not going to happen?

I believe what we are talking about is length of stand before we quit it as a dry hole? If I have reason to believe there is a coyote in the neighborhood, even 510 yards away, I may extend the stand and see what develops...I know a few tricks, myself.

But, to stay on a stand for 45 minutes, "precisely" for the benefit of a well educated, mature coyote, (and, theoretical, don't forget) this is not worthwhile, for me and my methods. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm quite happy killing dumb coyotes.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on August 04, 2006, 08:58 AM:

The only way I would make use of a 45 minute stand(with a coyote hung up at 500 yards),is as Cal mentioned earlier use the remote on the foxpro to my advantage and continue to call using the remote and putting the sneek on him. [Wink]

I look at it like this,I can stay there and mess with that one coyote for 45 minutes and maybe get a good shot at him,or move on and make two or three more stands in that time, and in some areas I call that could mean 2 or three more coyotes dead.FWIW Good Hunting Chad

[ August 04, 2006, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2006, 10:02 AM:

Yes, you make my point for me, Chad.

Thanks, LB

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on August 04, 2006, 01:33 PM:

Sink stand..........

Lost puppy Howls
Lonehowls
Bird Distress #1
Jack Rabbit Distress
Cottontail distress
Fawn death cries
Bird Distress #2
Puppy wines and cries
Puppy distress

Brent

Posted by canine (Member # 687) on August 04, 2006, 02:25 PM:

Hey Brent, you forgot the Monkey doin the chicken call!! LOL..

JD

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 04, 2006, 04:20 PM:

And for those who skin coyotes, those young and dumb ones, prime up faster, and sell for more money than the old coyotes!

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 04, 2006, 04:54 PM:

Brent and Rich

Could you give me a idea on what the time allocation would be with each sound? Nine to twelve sounds in a forty five minute time frame would be maybe three to five minutes for each sound? Do you take breaks between the howls and the distress and do you take breaks between the other distress, or do you just blend them together?

Dennis

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 04, 2006, 06:48 PM:

Sink stand..........

Lost puppy Howls
Lonehowls
Bird Distress #1
Jack Rabbit Distress
Cottontail distress
Fawn death cries
Bird Distress #2
Puppy wines and cries
Puppy distress
---------------
I would have to think that Lost puppy howls, puppy whines and cries, and puppy distress are all the same thing actually. Puppy in distress covers all of those, and therefore is actually only One calling sound. So what do we have now.

1. Lone howl to tell coyote that a stranger is in the territory.
2. Puppy distress which can trigger maternal protection reaction, easy meal syndrome or both.
3. Jackrabbit
4. cottontail
5. fawn distress
6. bird distress

I would personally use#1 and #2 most of the time for coyotes. I almost never use #5 but that is just me. I would save #3,#4 and #6 for a different stand.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 04, 2006, 07:40 PM:

Rich, howls are not distress and whines and cries are different than ki-yis. Three different sounds.
Dennis, I don't set up every stand the same and I don't call on every stand the same. I play every stand by ear. Besides the sounds Brent listed I also use calf bawls. Cdog sat a stand with me in Co. and saw how effective they can be on pressured coyotes.
Dennis, I switch up and back with all of these sounds on long, high confidence stands. Because I'm confident that a coyote can hear me I lean heavily on the despair component of the distress sounds and stick with the least aggressive and most nonthreatening vocalizations. If you have seen our video you know what sounds we use and how we use them to get coyotes in close and keep them there. I use the same sounds and use them the same way on the coyotes that I cannot see but am convinced can hear me.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 04, 2006, 08:10 PM:

Hmmmmmm, a coyote pup that is lost, and it howls because it feels lost, is that not a type of distress? A coyote pup that is in pain, and it howls, whines, ki-yi's or hoots, it is still the sounds of something in distress ain't it? [Roll Eyes]

Edit: I was messing with Rich Higgins a little bit. [Smile]

On a more serious note, all of the coyote puppy sounds are coming from same animal. (a coyote pup). The yowls, howls, yips, ki-yi's and whines of a coyote pup would be natural in the coyote residence. Coyotes are familiar with coyote pups and the sounds they emit. Using several of the coyote pup sounds on one stand seems less likely to confuse an adult coyote, than throwing out the distress sounds of several different types of animals or birds. I have a strong belief that coyotes can learn to shy away from sounds that it has approached a time or two and got shot at. I hope that I am making sense here.

[ August 05, 2006, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 04, 2006, 08:16 PM:

Rich, so do you make 45+ minute stands the norm?, or only if they are what you termed "high confidence",or if you have sighted a coyote?
Like Cal mentioned, if I know a coyote is there,whatever the distance, I'll try to put a sneak on if I can get away with it, or change a sound. I guess what I was getting at, is my normal stand, where no coyote shows,or can be seen sneaking a loop, 15 minutes,and I call it good.
Im somewhat suspect that many of the coyotes called in at 30 or 45 minutes or an hour,were nowhere around during what I call a normal stand length? We get into the "if" factor I believe. "If", the wind is swirling,"if", volumne is increased at intervals,"if", cows are off a half mile kicking up rodents etc...."IF", my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle, sorry, thats my favorite line when I hear the "if" word one to many times:)
I guess I need to tag along with you this winter one weekend,keep my mouth shut,and see how the other half does it. I'll need to take some no-doz,and find a stool with a backrest, so I don't tip over at the 30 minute mark though:)
Do e-mail me your address would you, I have something I want to shoot up your way. You being envolved with the martial arts, I have just the blade I want to give you.

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on August 04, 2006, 08:40 PM:

AZ,
You crack me up.LOL

Well said.. Good Hunting Chad

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 04, 2006, 09:29 PM:

They must just be dumber down here Tim,not necessarily young:) Last winter, I killed porportionately more older coyotes,than I did YOY?
Maybe a bad year for pup rearing,not sure, but I sure killed a lot of old,worn to the nub toothed older dogs,than the bat earred bouncing young.
Sure hoping for a good year this winter, Im getting antsy now,and still 60 days or so to go! Putting together a new little calling rifle,a .17 ackley hornet, got rid of my old one and just picked up another a couple months ago.
Thinking about another .19 caliber to add to the group too,either going to be a .19 Badger or .19-.223.

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on August 05, 2006, 05:21 AM:

Not all my stands run 45 min or more, just in cases were I know there are coyotes there. JD has see this work several times. And we have shot alot of video of it from time to time. This is not an adverage time on every stand.

JD.....Some sounds you just keep to yourself.....lol

Greenside,

It really depends on the stand. I go strait off gut feeling on sounds and how long I run them and what sound. I almost always put some breaks in there between sounds, sometime short breaks sometime long breaks and not every stand will get all the sounds or as many...and not all of them will run 45 min some may even run longer....That was just an example, I put out there. I call alot, give lots of sound (sometimes) it just depends on the stand and area I am calling.

I dont want that coyote to get side tracked on something else. I want to try and keep him on a string to me. And also not give him as much time to think about what he is doing. If I am running a distress sound and the coyote is comming hard, I stay on him untill he changes something, when he does then I change to what I think will put him back on the fast track to the gun. If he dont change I dont change, but this is only when I can see the coyote. If I cant see them and I know they are there, then the get the sink stand.

Rich C,

I guess you could put all those sounds togeather. But I dont. I will run the lost puppy howls, then a adult answer. I then may run puppy wines and wimpers. Then a couple more puppy howls, then more wimpers and cries, with alot of feeling and volume changes, then a adult howl and strait to sceaming puppy distress, not adult distress, puppy distress. All I done was break down the sounds to work best for me, it adds to the stand and plays out a storie line so to speak.

You also put the bird distress togeather. I have 4-5 bird sounds I can run on hand calls, there all diffrent, not the same sounds. Not all birds give the same distress cries. Diffrent changes in the sounds may trigger what it takes to kick the coyote in to moving. Pitchs, volume, fast , slow, it all changes the sound up and thats what I am trying to do to get the coyote to change what it is thinking. Or tigger something in his brain to jump start him to me.

I just just see those coyotes out there...............thinking what the sam hell is going on over there??????????

Me and JD filmed Rich H last winter, he was working an area we new had coyotes. As soon as he started calling we picked up coyotes comming in. 5 of them if I remember right maybe more? I would haft to look at the video for a count. Me and JD were filming from a high point. Rich could not see the coyotes. We got to film there changes as they came to the calls. At one point they all split up and circled the caller. Then they would stop, set down and scan the area.

Ever time he changes calls, sounds or the way the sound was ran they go up and moved forward, or went to meet up with other coyotes, anyway something they were doing changed. I had many chances to shoot these coyotes, but we were filming for this reason just to se what there changes would be. We learned alot from that film. You can see the change in them as he changed sounds or the way he called.

Every sound got a diffrent reaction from the coyotes. At one point they got up and left, sound change brought them back for another look.

Brent

Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on August 05, 2006, 06:57 AM:

Would it be safe to say that blanket statements like "12 minute stands" and "2 sounds" are more prominant in the west? Not arguing the reason... not stupid coyotes, lazy hunters or bookoo coyotes on either end. Just seems to me much of the western crowd can't grasp staying on stand or using multiple sounds- but most succesful callers in my area consider it commonplace.

If I went back to 12 minutes and 2 sounds for every stand I made in Indiana last year I would've killed 75% fewer coyotes. Actually, if I do kill a coyote that quick with such little investment I try to convince myself it was superior stand selection which causes me to sit there another 30 minutes. Usually it boils down to the fact anybody with a PC2 and a rifle could've called & killed that particular coyote at that time in that place. Not enough of those coyotes to go around for me... I adapt to stay consistant.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 05, 2006, 06:57 AM:

"I guess you could put all those sounds togeather. But I dont. I will run the lost puppy howls, then a adult answer. I then may run puppy wines and wimpers. Then a couple more puppy howls, then more wimpers and cries, with alot of feeling and volume changes, then a adult howl and strait to sceaming puppy distress, not adult distress, puppy distress. All I done was break down the sounds to work best for me, it adds to the stand and plays out a storie line so to speak."
------------
There ya go Kee. That is a natural sound, or rather a more natural combination of sounds. I agree with you on that scenario.

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 05, 2006, 07:31 AM:

Im somewhat suspect that many of the coyotes called in at 30 or 45 minutes or an hour,were nowhere around during what I call a normal stand length?

I wouldn't disagree on that point. In the past I've spotted coyotes in open country ,heading for home. They can cover alot of ground in 5 to 10 minutes. The theory might be that if you spend enough time on a stand. sooner or later one will walk into the sound cone. I'm sure it happens. The problem with that theory is that the reverse alway occurs, The longer you sit on a stand the farther the coyote can get from your location.

A few years ago we were west river and walked into a section and as soon as we set up we spotted a pair of coyote moving away. They were about 2\3 mile away and it was apparent that they hadn't spotted us. We tried several times to call and howl them but only could get them to stop and glance in our direction. It didn't take them long to disappear in a clump of tres, that was maybe two miles away.

So we just walked back to the truck and drove a half mile or so past the last visual and went in and setup. Less than five minutes later we had both of those coyote dead. Forty five minutes on a stand or move two miles?

Dennis

Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on August 05, 2006, 08:05 AM:

I suspect that the number of sounds used isn't an east/west thing as much as it is how long people have been doing it and the tools that were available when they started and then refined their technique. That painted with a very broad brush, there are exceptions to everything.
I'm also assumimg that a lot of the multiple sound users are generating them with an electronic call that lets you jump between something like 8 to 100 sounds. Nothing wrong with having that ability, it just hasn't been around very long. I personally can't justify the money that it takes to gain that ability.

Most of the area that I hunt does not allow the sighting of a coyote that is too far away to shoot so I've never messed around with trying to "un-stick" a coyote. I can actually only think of a very few occasions off-hand where I could see coyotes that I could not shoot. That only since I've started hunting IL. (more open), late in the winter, and always three or more coyotes in a group. I eventually moved on after I got tired of setting and had exhausted the few calls I had with me.
That is not at all the "usual" stand.

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on August 05, 2006, 08:08 AM:

While on the subject of pup howls and pup distress, my pup has been howling, and it matches exactly what I call the lost pup howl. This time of year on damage deals, the pups are out and loose, and while you can still call and kill the old ones pretty good, the pups generally scatter. But if you wait around for an hour or so, you will hear them start howling and gathering back together. It is a unique howl. I have been recording it from this pup alot. Most of you that have a FoxPro have the pup distress #2, which also came from a pup here a couple years ago. But it is a poor choice for calling and rarely works. [Wink]

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 05, 2006, 10:53 AM:

Those pups really know how to hide and if you ever corner one in the top of a wash they can be quite intimidating.

Dennis

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 05, 2006, 11:08 AM:

Some seem to be misunderstanding the subjects.
Stand length.
I stay on stand as long as I feel it has potential to produce relative to the time I have and the numbers I need. If I have a camera and no appointments, I will spend as much as an hour, even more to get what I want. If we are shooting in a contest we rarely spend more than 15 - 20 minutes on a high confidence stand, less time with less confidence. The last stand of the day may be extremely long if we don't have time to drive to another location before dark. We will burn every bit of shooting light on that last stand.
Calling to unseen coyotes.
In many areas there are "pockets" of habitat that I am certain contain coyotes while the surrounding areas do not. Cotton fields are a prime example. We are in the 13th year of a drought in Az. The desert that held coyotes years ago do not now. Cottonfields in July and August are three feet high and irrigated. This attracts lots of rodents and birds. The temperature inside the cotton is 20 degrees cooler than the ambient temperature outside. Good cover, cool, birds and rodents, water. Coyote tracks and scat everywhere on the dirt tracks surrounding the cotton. No tracks or scat in the hot dry, barren desert surrounding the cotton. There is no doubt in my mind that there are coyotes in that 40 acre parcel and in the one next to it. I can't see them but I know they are there. Same applies to milo fields and the thick mesquite washes that surround alfalfa fields and just about any ag enterprise down here including dairies and feedlots. If I call, coyotes will hear me. Plain and simple. I just have to decide if I'm willing to invest the time and effort neccessary to drag them up by the ears. Most other callers know this as well and these areas are hammered hard.
Pockets of State Trust land, virgin desert surrounded by residential areas. Night time will find coyotes on the streets and in the yards. Daytime won't. They will be in the thick mesquite and creosote in the "pockets'. Some of these pockets are 4 square miles in area, but I know that the coyotes can hear me. Even though their ranges are surprisingly large, I know they will be in those core areas during the day. Plain and simple.

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