This is topic 204 on coyotes in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000804
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 13, 2006, 07:37 AM:
I'm going to have to get me one of these.
Tyler's partner used one in a Savage 12, Accu trigger, black synthetic. Leupold LPS. Too heavy but accurate and Rich can just flat shoot that thing.
I saw him shoot one coyote on Sun, standing broadside, about 350 yards, 204 entrance, nickel size exit, just switched the coyote off. No spinning, flopping, biting, tail rotation, nothing. I asked him how high he held over. He said 2 inches.
He shot a running coyote at about 100 yards, perfect placement, 204 entrance behind shoulder, nickel exit. Just switched it off.
The day before Tyler said that Rich shot one behind the shoulder at about 20 yards, 204 entrance, no exit. Just switched it off. No flopping. He was using the 40 gr Vmax.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 13, 2006, 07:42 AM:
Rich, mine is a CZ527 American. Check it out before you buy. Its a short, light, fast handling and shoots like a dream. I love it.
Now, gotta kill some coyotes with it and see if I love the 204 equally as well. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 13, 2006, 09:26 AM:
Rich,
They are a great little fur gun,that's for sure.I've shot quite a few coyotes with mine in the last year or so and it really does amaze me what it will do.I have only shot the 35 grain Bergers at coyotes and haven't had one run off yet.And only a couple had some damage but both were hit high in the back.My long shot on one so far is only 300 yards but it didn't move and had no pelt damage.I'm running mine at about 3850 fps (muzzle) with H4895 powder.It is an addicting little bugger to shoot. Good Hunting Chad
[ September 13, 2006, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on September 13, 2006, 03:13 PM:
i reasoned myself out of getting 1 about a month ago. i had the cash and was ready to play. i still want one and may try an H & R.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on September 13, 2006, 05:54 PM:
I shot Andys on a prarie dog town a couple weeks ago & was very impressed with the CZ, light & accurate for sure but the best part was I was shooting up his ammo ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on September 13, 2006, 06:54 PM:
Rich I have a204 Sav 12 With a Hary lawsen stock.
In the last 2 year I think I have only shot 2 coyotes with other guns 1 was with a 20 Acly Hornet I do not like the 32 grn pills 35 and 40 grn wook great.
Good hunting Kevin
Posted by GCrock (Member # 351) on September 14, 2006, 02:28 PM:
I keep reading how everyone seems to love the 35 grain berger, no reason to mess with success I guess. Are any of you 204 shooters planning on trying the nosler 40 grain on coyotes? Or, why is the 35 grain berger more popular than the 40 grain version? Just curious. I bought a box of the 40 grain noslers to try, have to get some loaded up soon. I have shot 10 coyotes with the 40 grain v-maxes, and it has been a one shot lights out thing. However, I have not hit a shoulder bone with them.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 14, 2006, 03:30 PM:
I one of the biggest reason you don't hear more about the 40 gr. bullets, is that it seems like a lot of the factory 12 twist barrels don't shoot them very well. Those that do shoot them well, seem to have real good results on coyotes with them.
Then too, part of the allure of the .204 is "fast and flat", with minimal recoil or disturbance of the sight picture. The velocities with the 40's out of the .204 case start to get kind of pedestrian (comparatively speaking), mid range trajectory starts to lose some of it's sex appeal (again, comparatively speaking), recoil is right there with the .223 (you get the idea), and you start asking yourself "why not just shoot a .22-250? It will spit out 40's at 400 fps faster".
I'm well aware of the BC and SD advantages of a .204 40 gr. over a .224 40 gr., but I think that's the general nature of the thought process.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 14, 2006, 03:38 PM:
Yeah, right. That's part of the reason why the 204 hasn't roused my interest very much. Might show to good effect at short ranges, but that's not the whole ball game in a general purpose calling rifle. I'm not knocking it, (for those that own one), just can't see where I would need it?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 14, 2006, 04:00 PM:
From what little experience I've had with mine.It seems to whack coyotes(35 grain bullet) with the same type of authority that my .22-250 does with 55 grain bullet.Like I said my long shot so far with it is only 300 yards.But all the coyotes I've hit whether good or bad shots have anchored them,about like my .22-250.I'm no gun Guru by any means and don't really know about all the B.C and S.D and all that stuff but I do know it is flat,fast,and accurate and whacks coyotes.All I know is that my .22-250,and .223 AI have been collecting dust since I bought my .204 Ruger. Just my 2 cents Good Hunting Chad
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on September 15, 2006, 05:51 AM:
I feel that the reason that a lot of people have trouble with forty grain bullets is they are shooting factory ammo. I feel that the factory ammo leaves something to be desired. My rifle shoots factory 40 grainers into slightly over an inch at a hundered yards. But it has yet to shoot more than about a 1/2 inch with handloads it seems to shoot all brands of forty grain bullets quite well. FYI I have been using 10X powder.
While it's no 22-250 I feel that it has more impact than any .223 that i have tried.
P.S. Leonard did you get my e-mail?
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on September 15, 2006, 06:22 AM:
my browning is sighted in with the Hornady 32 grainers. I tried the remington 32 grainers but my rifle doesn't eject the shells well. I shot at one coyote at 300 yards with mine but missed horribly!! I hear the 39 grainers are pretty awesome but have NO experiance with them. I think I will stick with the 32 grainers from hornady but sometimes they are tough to find. I have never heard of an exit wound with the 32 grainers at any range.
p.s. I shot a coyote TWICE with .223 55 grain softpoints and they both "slipped" through. Never did find that coyote ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
and the shot was at <50 yards.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 15, 2006, 10:22 AM:
Albert. No, I did not get an email from you, but I have been thinking that I need to make contact, mental telepathy type of thing. LB
Posted by 22-250 (Member # 36) on September 15, 2006, 04:58 PM:
Rich,
I got a new 204 barrel early February. Five coyotes have been killed with, all at home in Poway. Around March timeframe, my wife just finishing feeding the horse when the neighbor's (300 yards away) dog started barking at their property line. The dog has an electronic coller that is activated when he get within a minimum distance of a buried wire.
Anyway there was four coyotes trying to lure the dog out of the open area of the yard into some medium heavy brush area. Pam called the neighbor and the neighbor got the dog in the house.
I decided to see if the coyotes were going to follow the normal route, which put crossing across another neighbor property that was only 150 yards for where I decide to setup. Long story, but of the four coyotes three bit the dust, around 200 to 250 yards. The fourth just headed straight up a really steep hillside to get away.
Also, all my kills have just dropped dead. But I have not had any exit holes. I am shooting 40 gr vmax as well. Have not tried the 32 gr vmax.
[ September 15, 2006, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: 22-250 ]
Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on September 15, 2006, 08:54 PM:
I've heard a lot of good things about the .204. I thought about buying one, but I already have two .17 Rem's.
Posted by Freddie (Member # 952) on September 15, 2006, 09:44 PM:
I have one Model 7 in .17 Rem.I use IMR 4320 and get similar results as PAyotehunter however with the shorter barrel 3650 fps is about it. I also have one CZ 527 American in .204 and a .204 LSV Remington. I wouldn't trade them for anything. The CZ is giving me good groups with the 30 grain Bergers and I will be trying them out on Coyote this year. The .204 LSV Remington is giving me good groups with the .40 grain Hornady I have been making the rancher happy with the prairie dogs with that one. I have been using 10X powder in the .204 rifles
[ September 15, 2006, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Freddie ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 16, 2006, 12:17 AM:
Hi Freddie, welcome to Huntmasters. Where in Az are you located?
PAyotehunter, impressive group.
Posted by Freddie (Member # 952) on September 16, 2006, 02:52 PM:
Mr. Higgins, I live near Prescott. Thanks for the welcome.
[ September 17, 2006, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Freddie ]
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 17, 2006, 09:16 PM:
I'm having a .20 Tactical being built,should have it in a month or two,very much like the the .204 in performance,it will have an 11 twist barrel to make sure it will handle the 40's.Been gathering every bit of info I can get my hands on for loads,bullet selection, etc.There's a very wide swing in printed velocities for 32 and 40 grain loads......Ballisticly,the 40 grainer starts out slower than the 32 grainer until at 250 yards ,the 40 grainer takes over.So why not just shoot 40's?........I'm going to try different 32's,a 35, and 40's, along with a few different powders to find "the load".......I've seen where the factory .204 Hornady rounds have their bullets seated pretty deep,resulting in a big jump for the bullet to gap before it makes contact with the lands,a good opportunity for the handloader.......I've got no big plans for using it on Coyotes 'tho.
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on September 21, 2006, 05:54 PM:
My friend Pat Hoing has one and it flat drops them with no problem. He uses benchmark with 39gr.bullet.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 21, 2006, 08:20 PM:
Forgot to mention Sierra's 39 grain Blitz King,heard lots of good things about this bullet,seems to be a favorite.Benchmark is on the list of powders to try.
Posted by brett (Member # 968) on September 28, 2006, 12:16 PM:
has anyone tried loading the 40gr berger match or the 45 gr hornady soft pts. i am looking for bullet that is easy on fur. i have shot a few coyotes with the 32 gr vmax but they leave big holes
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 28, 2006, 12:25 PM:
I bought some factory 32gr VMax. They shot really well and blew the hell out of prarie dogs. DAA suggested I try some 35gr Bergers on coyotes and Rich gave a fantastic first hand account of the 204 with 40gr VMax.
So, I bought some 40gr Vmax, factory, to try on coyotes. And, I got a box of 35gr Bergers to load and try as well. Ill let you know and post some pics, if you guys want, of fur damage and accounts of performance as I go. I think there is great potential here and want to try and perfect it.
At the range, the 40s shoot good. Not quite as tight as the 32s, but still good enough for a hunting rifle. Im not going to shoot matches and it will still outshoot alot of rifles I have seen people call good over the years. I plan on loading some of the 35 Bergers soon and see how they shoot.
Like Q said, just a couple more weeks. Im READY!! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 28, 2006, 05:08 PM:
brett,
If you reload, the 35 bergers are great,easy on the fur,fast and very accurate.And they really whack the coyotes.I to am looking to try the 45 grain Hornady SP to see how they do.Probably will be Factory bullets to start with but if they work out I might start reloading some for coyotes.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 28, 2006, 08:54 PM:
Has anyone shot these bullets we've been talking about on paper at 300 yards for comparison?Curious how that 35 grain Berger stacks up with it's hollow point and flat base for trajectory.
Posted by brett (Member # 968) on September 28, 2006, 09:48 PM:
yeah i reload i have heard good things about the 35 gr bergers and think i will try some. what powder are you using i was going to start with some H335 or W748. any load data would be appreciated
thanks
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 28, 2006, 11:41 PM:
BLC2 seems to be working for some. Thats what I am trying....
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 29, 2006, 05:50 AM:
Sparky, the 35 Berger really does start to fall off pretty quick as range increases. It's not the answer if 300 yards and beyond are a regular part of the equation. For most all callers though, performance at that distance really doesn't matter. At the medium ranges like 300 - 400 yards, the light little plastic tipped pills like the 32 Vmax have the flattest trajectory, and still don't give up very much to the wind compared to the 39's and 40's. They lack energy by comparison though, and as has been discussed many times already, I just don't think the construction of the 32's is right for coyotes. The Hornady 45's are interesting to me, and I will definitely shoot some coyotes with them this winter when my big .20 is finally done. And I think they'll do fine - I expect performance somewhat similar to the old Sierra .224 1365. They are kind of an odd duck in the .20 world though. BC on them is not all that good, which combined with their heavy for caliber weight will give them a relatively rainbow like trajectory out of the smaller .204 case. But, and this is a pretty important "but" when we are talking real world called coyotes -- that trajectory won't mean diddly on the vast majority of called coyotes which are shot at less than 200 yds, most well under 100 yds. Still though, to me, that bullet just seems kind of weird for the .204. I can't get past the notion of lighter bullets, moving much faster, shooting much flatter, with less disturbance to the sight picture. To me, that's what the .204 is really all about. But, truthfully, that 45 gr. bullet really should make the .204 a more versatile round for those who can get past what I see as the strangeness of it. What I would REALLY like to see, is a plastic tip (high BC), about 38 gr. (flat trajectory), with a tougher jacket and a solid base (penetration on coyotes). I think that would give a guy the best all around compromise in bullet construction for killing coyotes with a .204.
- DAA
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 29, 2006, 06:16 AM:
Good post Dave. This sounds familiar? I was reading it and went back and read an email you sent me on this question. Its not word for word, but its close.
Just thought that was cool. A man of his convictions that closesly is hard to find sometimes....
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 29, 2006, 09:28 AM:
I've only shot a couple coyotes at the 300 yard range with the 35 grain bergers,they were frontal shots and they were bang/flops with no fur damage.But I have not had enough long range experience on coyotes with the 35's to be an authority on them.But what DAA says makes sense to me.I too want to try the 45's for coyotes,I thought the same thing as Dave about them being like the 1365's.Time will tell I guess.If I were shooting long range alot,the 40 vmax might be the answer but i don't like the idea of surface splashes.I guess you get pro's and con's with any bullet you use.For now I will probably stick with the 35 grain bergers,at least for fur.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 29, 2006, 10:57 AM:
I don't own one, but if I did, I would think the advice from these Utah boys (Dave and Chad) to be well worth considering.
Only thing is, I have never thought of Sierra's #1365 as a "fur" bullet? But, I do believe in a heavy for caliber bullet, for coyotes. I think they are more predictable, terminally.
The question is; what is the correct shape and weight, and point style for a heavy for caliber hunting bullet? You can do all the research, and it might take years, but if you build on a foundation such as what is offered by these knowledgable guys, you are headed in the right direction.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 29, 2006, 10:17 PM:
Well said Dave....However, I could type out a couple scenario's why a caliber/bullet combination for Coyotes needs to be able to strike at the 300 yard mark without worrying about bullet drop from a rainbow trajectory,for those occasional longer shots.
That brings up another thought.If the 32's are a bit iffy,what about the .17 calibers using even lighter bullets,what's the story on that?I would suspect,that careful bullet placement would be essential with the .17's?What's your take on that.Thanks,Sparky
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 30, 2006, 05:41 AM:
Sparky, its bullet composition. Those VMaxs are so damned explosive and moving so fast they blow up easy. The Berger has a heavier, not by much, jacket that allows it to penetrate before blowing up.
Thats the difference between a 25gr Berger 17cal and a 32gr VMax 20cal. And I imagine why the 35gr Bergers are working good on coyotes.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 30, 2006, 07:27 AM:
"However, I could type out a couple scenario's why a caliber/bullet combination for Coyotes needs to be able to strike at the 300 yard mark without worrying about bullet drop from a rainbow trajectory,for those occasional longer shots."
Sparky, believe me, I could not agree more! I was speaking in general, "most of the time" terms. My own most used and favorite coyote rifle is "point and shoot" to beyond 300 yards. The "big .20" I mentioned earlier that I'm having built, is going to be point-and-shoot all the way out to 350 yards, and should be able to hold on fur at 400. So, you bet, I absolutely see the value in flat trajectory to 300 and beyond in a calling rifle. It's just that the longer range performance really doesn't matter for most guys, including me, most of the time. But I'll take the insurance if I can get it!
Andy nailed it on the bullet construction. That's the whole issue with those 32 Vmax and similar bullets. It's a combination of construction and velocity, actually, but for the class of cartridges we are talking about in this thread the velocity will be fairly high so it comes down to construction.
The rifle I used all of last season is a large capacity .17 caliber (.17 Predator) that launches 30 gr. bullets at over 4000 fps. The bullets I'm using Kindler Gold's, which are boat tails on J4 jackets, very similar in construction to the Berger Match bullets. The BC on them is higher than the .20 caliber 32 Vmax, so my trajectory and wind drift are actually flatter than the .204 Ruger, and starting not too far from the muzzle the energy is higher for my .17 too, with the energy gap just getting wider (in favor of my .17) as range increases.
So, as the two different bullets leave the muzzle, one the .20 cal. 32 Vmax and the other the .17 cal. 30 Gold, you have two bullets that weigh almost the same, at almost the same velocity. It might appear on the surface that they should give similar performance. But nothing could be further from the truth. I've not had a single surface splash with the 30 Gold yet. They can and have broken near side shoulders and exited the far side with not too big a hole. My limited experience with the 32 Vmax has been completely different. Huge surface splash, no ability to penetrate shoulder, never an exit or even what I would consider good penetration. The difference is all in the construction of the two bullets.
Even on paper, looking at exterior ballistics, the difference between the two bullets is pretty significant, since the 30 Gold has such a BC advantage over the stubby 32 Vmax. That's a function of the difference in bullet shape, favoring the more heavy-for-caliber 30 gr. .17 bullet.
The .20 cal. 35 Berger is constructed pretty much like the 30 Gold's I'm using. They have a more open point and are not nearly as heavy-for-caliber, so they lag behind the .17 even further than the 32 Vmax in terms of trajectory, wind deflection and energy retention. BUT! They perform a whole heckuva lot better than the 32 Vmax when they strike coyote flesh!
I know there are plenty of guys who will violently disagree with me, but for my money, the 32 Vmax is just a piss poor coyote bullet, all the way around.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 30, 2006, 10:59 AM:
Very well said Dave.I couldn't agree more.I have not shot the Vmax on coyotes myself but have friends that have.Most have said they are piss poor bullets for coyotes.I'm running the 35's at 3850-3900 fps. 1 inch high at 100 yrds, dead on 200 yrds,5 inches low at 300 yrds and about 18 inches low at 400 yrds.And it just so happens that each tick mark on my Ballistic Plex recticle(Burris) is where I need it to be(or damn close).So I would feel fairly comfortable taking a shot at those ranges if needs be.But most of my shots have been 0-250 yrds,and at these ranges it flat whacks coyotes.The real long range shots on coyotes for the most part aren't much of an issue for me.But I wouldn't even hesitate to take a 300 yard shot at a coyote with the 35 grain bergers .FWIW
brett,
In answer to your question I use 28.0 grains of H4895 powder with the 35 grain bergers they are running between 3850-3900 fps.Good Hunting Chad
[ September 30, 2006, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on October 01, 2006, 06:38 AM:
Each rifle can have it's own personallity as to what works well and what doesn't. Rate of twist, depth of rifling, type of rifling etc.all factor into how a bullet will perform. it doesn't hurt to try different bullets in different rifles.
FWIW I have shot several coyotes with the 32 grain v-max out of my 204 and the results have been quite acceptable.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on October 01, 2006, 09:06 PM:
Right on Dave,we're on the same page....You've got me thinking about a .20-250 for my next build.
My whole intent was to expose how difficult it is to judge the distance of a Coyote that's out there a ways from any number of "for instances".Often,closer then they appear,overshooting is the result. There's no time to count how many football fields away it is,or pull out that lazer and range 'em,no sir,just enough time to point and shoot.Often,I'll make an attempt to quickly estimate the range of a particular feature out in the field,be it a boulder or what ever, and then range it with lazer.I'm terrible at it.
I've got some good examples from the last 48 hours of a epic solo calling trip I just returned from this weekend.
In a day and a half (all day stands)I called in 18 Coyotes(that I know of)and killed 16.Five of them,I'd wish I had a shotgun.Others were dropped at 343,253,265,and 185 yards,the rest of 'em we're under 100.And oh ya,one at 416 yards....I knew that one looked aways out there, maybe a tad over 300 I thought,(I'm 1"low at 300)I aimed top of shoulder and watched as she stood up on her hind legs while falling backwards into the sagebrush.Both front paws where almost completely shearded off by the bullet......
Don't know many folks that shoot their hunting rifles at paper at 300 yards.Most just do the 100 yard thing and call it good.Some may find after trying it, they'll need some practice.A big confidence boost will come from the effort too.Check out Daves website on load development,good stuff. Cheers,Sparky
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 01, 2006, 10:53 PM:
Yeah, we're all on the same page, flat trajectory. Whatever your flavor, I like from 22, up.
Nice kill Spark. Where did you say you were?
Your story reminds me of the time I was shooting at a coyote moving through some tight cover, (at a distance) flinging lead all over the place, until I didn't see him; but I didn't see him leave, either. Followed the blood smear, saw him under some brush and when flushed, he slithered away like an inch worm, with all four legs busted.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on October 02, 2006, 07:47 PM:
The land of fruit and nuts.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 02, 2006, 07:57 PM:
Its not too bad estimating long ranges around here. Fences are normally either 440 or 880 yards apart here. Pretty easy to tell the difference in those two. Makes it much easier for me to guesstimate how far a shot is, as Im normally in a fencerow calling. Flat shooting rifles make it even easier once the coyote gets 100 yards or so closer than the other fencerow. No elevation adjustment needed.
Telephone and powerline poles are big helps too. They arent always the same distance, but if you are going to be hunting near some, checking the distance between two can be good.
FWIW
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 02, 2006, 08:10 PM:
Not much in the way of fences or telephone poles where I hunt Andy ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
. Especially not the telephone poles. Some of my favorite places, you'd have to drive a couple hours to get to the nearest one.
My range estimating skills sound about like Sparky's. I'm amazed at how badly I guess sometimes! My personal rule, with a flat shooting rifle, is never hold over unless I'm absolutely positive the coyote is a LONG ways off. And even at that, I usually end up shooting over them when I do hold over (my range estimating skills at work...). So I really try not to ever hold over .
- DAA
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 02, 2006, 08:18 PM:
I hear ya Dave. Just relating what I see here. Its a whole nuther world where I do most of my hunting to where you hunt. No doubt. And, I do hunt the woods some just south of me that would be similar to the eastern boys, but thats totally different as well.
Gotta hunt what you got to hunt in your area. No way around it.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 02, 2006, 08:23 PM:
I also shoot the 30 gr. golds in my 17 cals and like DAA says they get the job done. I have taken coyotes with them out to a little past 500 yds. When i decide to go with a certain bullet i test them out to 600 yards to see how they group. I have shot some that at a 100 yds they shoot a nice half inch group, but when i go to say 500 yards they are all over the target. Some of my choices for bullets are the 30 gr berger L.T.B. and 30 gr gold in 17 cal. For the .224 cal i use Sierra 52 gr. match and the 52 gr. hornady A-max. In 6mm i tried the 55 gr ballistic tips and was getting splashes and i stoped useing the 6mm. A friend uses 60 gr h.p. and has been have good results with them.
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0