This is topic Group Yip Howls in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 26, 2006, 06:48 AM:
Are group yip howls a deceptive ploy to inflate numbers? Are coyote able to determine if there's 2,3,4,5,6 or more coyote yip howling?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 26, 2006, 07:16 AM:
Dennis ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
, I see you ask questions that you know the answer to often. Who are you prodding with this one? lol
As you know, a primary function of the GYH is passive territorial defense. By announcing occupancy and location the group informs all within hearing that a particular area is taken and, by implication, defended. Keeps the riff-raff out. I don't believe that deception by inflating numbers is neccessary because two coyotes will and can defend their territory from intrusion as well as four simply because, with certain exceptions, coyotes normaly respect territorial boundaries and do not conduct mass invasions or turf wars.
As to the other question yes I do believe that coyotes can determine the number of coyotes participating in a howlfest for two reasons.
1, coyotes will not sustain a howl on the same note as another coyote. That is one reason for the modulating ululation that defines the GYH. Therefore one coyote's howl does not cover or suppress another's.
2, coyotes hearing has evolved over 15,000 years to detect two principle sounds, close mouse squeeks and long distance howls. I'm betting that they are able to decipher all of the information that is encoded and broadcast in every single howl.
What's up, Dennis?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 26, 2006, 09:33 AM:
On a tangent... I think most people are fooled by GYH's to believe there are more coyotes than there are. My partner Tim and I never agree on the number. He'll say sounds like 5 or 6, I'll say sounds like 3 exactly. Most people I've been with when listening to GYH's seem to think there are a lot more coyotes involved than I usually do. Could be I'm the one who always has it wrong, but I really don't think so - having witnessed coyotes GYH'ing quite a few times, as opposed to just hearing them.
- DAA
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 26, 2006, 09:57 AM:
Dave, a guy that works for us just told me this morning that he had 20 coyotes YH behind his house last night. I was thinking to myself, 3-4... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 26, 2006, 10:01 AM:
I don't know their purpose, but to attempt to count them accurately is really, really hard. IMHO
I'd like to see a poll conducted. Record a GYH, as you observe them doing it, so that you know the answer. Play it as many times as needed, and total the estimates. I bet the responses would be an even progression from two to at least five, maybe more?
Personally, I think they usually need three to make a quorum, but it sounds like five. Four also sounds like five. Etc.
Now, when do we normally hear a group yip howl? For me, it is most commonly around thirty minutes before the crack of dawn, by a wide margin.
Interesting question.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 26, 2006, 10:28 AM:
I sat around and watched my 6 coyotes GYH many times. They always sounded like twice as many. Some would start a yip, then break it off, and start again. I always thought it was to maintain some sort of unison. If one was to howl over the top of anothers howl, it was either twice as loud or softer. Never at the same tone or volume. If it started out to be equivalent, he would stop and start again towards the end of the others howl. Obviously instinctive, but I can only speculate on the reason.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 26, 2006, 12:06 PM:
"Now, when do we normally hear a group yip howl?"
90% of those I hear, are while on the first or second stand of the morning, and usually seem to be set off by my rabbit screams. Very common to have a whole valley light up, chain reaction style, within 60 seconds of starting either the first or second stand. And as far as that goes, often enough it happens on both the first AND second stands of a given morning.
Most of the rest of the time I hear them, are from the comfort of my sleeping bag, usually not long after dark or not long before light. But, those are the two times I'm awake. I hear them in the middle of the night, once in awhile, when I'm getting up to take a leak or just rolling over in my bag.
- DAA
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 26, 2006, 12:07 PM:
Interestingly, Leonard, around here they GYP mostly in the evening, right around sunset to an hour afterwards. On occasion, I've heard them light up in the morning, but not often. Always made me wonder why they dubbed it "sunrise serenade".
The chaotic yelping and harmonizing must be something deeply rooted in their psyche because greyhounds do the same thing. Having trained racing greyhounds for a number of years, I quickly learned that in an aggregate the size afforded by a kennel of any size, the dogs would quickly adopt an almost pack dynamic. At first, they would only interact with their own littermates and the hierarchy would develop within those numbers. Later, at about a year old, the litters are transitioned to what are called "schooling kennels" where all the dogs of that age are intermingled. At this time, any given dog must adapt from being around five or six other dogs to being around upwards of a hundred other dogs four times a day during "turnout".
As a matter of safety, each dog is fitted with a muzzle that they wear every hour of every day, the rest of their lives. Some of my most exciting experiences training racing greyhounds was when one dog would shoulder check another in the turnout pen and trigger a dog fight. Out of instinct, they all join in, especialy if one gets down and starts yelping. Turns into a feeding frenzy and I have seen dogs killed and handlers seriously injured trying to break it up.
Anyway, what is really interesting is that greyhounds, like coyotes, like to harmonize. Usually, it's puppies and subadults, but they exhibit the same characteristics in that they very accurately reproduce a coyote GYP. One difference, though. It starts with one litter of five and pretty quick, the entire kennel area is joining in. Let me tell y'all something - what a roar! I've hearde, firsthand, what it actually sounds like to hear a hundred "coyotes" over that hill. In fact, I've heard as many as 240 greyhounds joining in a yipping, yapping chorus of barks and yipes at one time. Standing there witness to that only once, you know that they're just dogs, but that little prehistoric guy huddled in the deepest darkest recesses of your psyche pulls a string and all the chills go down your back and the hairs on your neck stand on end. I've taken guys calling near and around the kennels on my calling area and had the greyhounds light up before. Except that I don't tell them what they are ahead of time. LOL You oughtta see them sit upright when all hell breaks loose over the hill.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on October 26, 2006, 02:15 PM:
Most GYH howls I hear are are 30 minutes to an hour before first light and just after daylight. I'll often hear a group before daylight and the same group again an hour or so later.
Just after dark GYH's are common also.
Whenever I hear a GYP I take the number it sounds like and divide by two. Three always sound like 5-6.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on October 26, 2006, 03:21 PM:
Been lurking and reading here for awhile.......this looks like a great site for information....Here in Okie land they tend to tune up 1/2 hour before dark and/or again just after dark. They will also make a round close to the house and give my JRT fits about 2 AM....not realy a GYH then...Kelly
Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on October 26, 2006, 05:40 PM:
have heard em YH anytime of the night. hard to get em to do it during the day though.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on October 26, 2006, 05:42 PM:
Here it seems they dont have a set time, maybe right at dark or 1:00am. You just never know. And its not very often I hear any howls during the day morning or eve, it almost always after dark or before day break.
I got a couple groups recorded yip howling. It would be fun to put up a link and let you all guess! If your interested?
Brent
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on October 26, 2006, 06:10 PM:
I've heard GYH at dusk, night and early dawn, but come to think of it if I've ever heard GYH during the daytime I really can't recall it.
If there is one, any reason for GYH not happening often in daylight?
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 26, 2006, 06:56 PM:
Not really trying to do any prodding or testing to see if someone is blowing smoke, although I did read on a site today about someone who had four coyote (all female) plus one that sounded like the JS Coy-wolf respond vocally to a challenge howl. That one might need some prodding!
No, I’m just interested in howling. I’m aware of the fact that group yip howls are used for territorial purposes and also for spatial purposes and are maybe even a factor in litter sizes. Is it just a matter of Poppa sang base, momma sang treble and me and the brother………..
From a site that I found a couple of months ago . The study is being funded through 2007. Will this hypotheses be proved true of false.
“The objective of my study is to investigate whether information about group size is made available to coyotes in the howling choruses of conspecifics. Although it seems clear that chorus howling is a component of canid territorial strategy, the question of how much information the animals glean from this signal is unclear. The primary hypotheses of this study are: 1) Coyotes can judge the relative number of individuals present from the contents of a group yip-howling chorus, and 2) the group yip-howl also contains information about individual identity. In addressing these research hypotheses, the study will employ both captive and wild coyote populations. Radio-collared wild coyotes in central Ohio will be tracked and monitored during playback experiments to determine whether they respond differentially to the chorus howls of two different-sized, unfamiliar groups of coyotes. Both physical approach/avoidance and vocal responses will be recorded. The results of this study will indirectly provide information about the coyote’s ability to discriminate group size from a howling chorus, as well as providing additional insight into the coyote’s territorial defense strategy. Because it is difficult, if not impossible, to visually observe coyote howling behavior in the field, the howling choruses of captive groups of coyotes will be audio- and video-taped to identify individual roles in a group howl, as well as acoustic patterns that could make number (i.e., group size) discernable. Data on radio-collared coyotes' home range size and habitat use will also be analyzed.”
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on October 26, 2006, 06:59 PM:
I had an experience a couple years ago when out hunting in the Black Hills. I sat down with a partner and let out a long howl. Just like that it triggered a Group Howl, only it sounded different. I looked at my partner and said: "Do you believe that?" That sounded like wolves. They weren't very far away either. Talk about send chills up a guys back. We were hunting on an elk ranch. When we got back to the ranch,I told the rancher about our experience. He started laughing and said his neighbor had a bunch of wolves in pens about a mile from his place.The next day we went over and looked at them from the road. He was just feeding them. Have any of you guys had wolves howl back when out coyote hunting or just hunting?
Posted by canine (Member # 687) on October 26, 2006, 07:10 PM:
Hey greenside,
I'm interested in what you read about the study goin on in central Ohio. What website is this at?
Thanks
JD
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on October 26, 2006, 07:33 PM:
J_hun
I got a area I hunt some for coyotes. There is a game farm just right down the road. From my first stand of the day they are just right over the ridge from were I set up. 90% of the time if I howl the wolves will cut loose from there pin.
Im also interested in were you found that study greenside?
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 26, 2006, 08:06 PM:
This is what I mean by milking the system. Some guy gets Federal money to fund a "study" to find out if coyotes can count? LB
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on October 26, 2006, 08:49 PM:
Leonard, I think we should get a grant for a study to see if coyote hunters can count.
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on October 26, 2006, 09:25 PM:
Way down in the very south part of Texas, we heard group yip howls during the day. Usually around noon and then again at midafternoon. Sometimes as many as 5 different groups would start-in.
Only thing I know for sure was there was more than one per group and if we were lucky enough to be on a tank, we could get a pretty good idea of their location.
Randy
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 27, 2006, 05:43 AM:
Occasionally, we'll get a group yapping (not GYH - but warning/threat barks/yaps) during the middle of the day. Usually I take it as getting busted by a pair or triple. I imagine everybody has that happen at times. Once in a while, we'll get a weak GYH, shortly after killing one on stand. Recorded one of those last time out, in fact. Sounded like this: Mourning their kin?
That was recorded at about 10:00AM, a few minutes after a kill. The same group had lit up with a bit more enthusiasm, right after we started the stand. They sound much farther away in the clip than being there. I don't think they were any more than 500 yards away, at most.
You would certainly have to think that coyotes can get a pretty good handle on how many, and who, from a neighborhing GYH. We can get an idea of how many and who, and the coyotes have to be better at it than we are.
- DAA
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on October 27, 2006, 05:58 AM:
Coyotes in my area can and will gyh at anythime of the day or night. Although it is heard less often from about 10 a.m. until around 3-4 in the afternoon.
I feel that I have a fairly good idea on how many coyotes are in the group howl. I tend to count the distinct tones rather than go by the amount of noise. Two or three seems to be the most common.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 27, 2006, 06:55 AM:
Here's the link. It's being done by OSU where there appears to be quite abit of interest in coyote with that urban study. The source of funding could be questioned.
http://www.canids.org/canid-db-show-full.php?item=77
Although I suspect that they will burn them out on the howling which will more than likely bias the research, this is what interests me.
Radio-collared wild coyotes in central Ohio will be tracked and monitored during playback experiments to determine whether they respond differentially to the chorus howls of two different-sized, unfamiliar groups of coyotes. Both physical approach/avoidance and vocal responses will be recorded.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 27, 2006, 07:21 AM:
Dennis, too bad they don't broadcast an individual lonehowl and record the results.
Tripp, GYHs are performed as a greeting ceremony when coyotes reassemble which is why they are heard consistantly around dawn and dusk. If they are performed during daylight you know that those coyotes are in an area where they feel secure and you can exploit that. GYHs will be performed at any hour of the night when the group approaches an area that they are compelled to announce or claim territory, like my house after my dogs and I have done a GYH earlier in the evening.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 27, 2006, 07:49 AM:
Rich, I do too. That would make logical sense.
I hear alot of different opinions on what the lone howl will or won't do as far as response, both physical and vocal. But then at the same time why the perceived difference between a group howl( 2 maybe more)and the group yip howl(2 or more) in response, since in theory they might serve the same purpose? I'm not more secure when locating with a group howl or a group yip howl when it comes to hanging around the truck waiting for a vocal response.
Dennis
[ October 27, 2006, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 27, 2006, 12:19 PM:
Dennis, the group howl and GYH do serve the same purpose in as much as both are issued to announce location in response to distant howling. The level of excitement is the primary difference and the intensity of GYHs help to reenforce social bonds and establish and reaffirm rank within the group. That is one of the reasons that sometimes a session will sound like the younger ones are being eaten alive and why the dominant ones will be hackled up and aggressive afterwards.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 27, 2006, 01:02 PM:
Ok so there is no difference in the apparent vocal response from either a group howl or a group yip howl made by unknown coyotes? Does it have an impact on the physical response? Will coyotes be harder to call in with a group yip howl than a group howl?
Dennis
[ October 27, 2006, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 27, 2006, 04:17 PM:
Dennis, I can't answer those questions, you know that. The GYH is used as a locator by biologists because it evokes a like response from adjacent packs more than any other vocalization. The Johnny Stewart "Coyote Locator" is a recording of a GYH. Kathleen Fulmer's study of collared coyotes responses to broadcast playback demonstrated that vocal rsponse was often delayed because the coyotes would reposition themselves within their territory before replying. I'm convinced that they would do so because their sense of security was too low in that particular area to sound off. They would reposition into a comfort zone or join with another member before broadcasting their location.
Since the GYH is a territorial declaration or claim I expect an approach after we blow one only if we are located well within their defended territory otherwise we expect only a vocal reply and we never know how long that will take them.
We expect an approach only to lone howls.
Coyotes responses to any type of howl is determined by those particular coyotes security levels at that particular time. What is interesting to me is the fact that the biologists conducting that study, by trapping the coyotes, poking and prodding them, taking blood samples, pulling a tooth for aging, and placing a bulky, relatively permanent, foreign object around their neck, are drastically changing those coyotes behavior.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 27, 2006, 06:27 PM:
quote:
What is interesting to me is the fact that the biologists conducting that study, by trapping the coyotes, poking and prodding them, taking blood samples, pulling a tooth for aging, and placing a bulky, relatively permanent, foreign object around their neck, are drastically changing those coyotes behavior.
Well, shit. I didn't think that little detail registered with you?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by canine (Member # 687) on October 28, 2006, 07:41 AM:
Thanks for the link Greenside. Sounds like an interesting study.
JD
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 14, 2007, 10:18 AM:
Sorry guys for kicking a dead horse, but since I am new I may be bringing up some old topics to give my $.02 or ask further questions. Please bear with me.
I have heard GYH at all times during the night, but most commonly just before sunset. I have invoked a lot of GYH on early morning and late evening stands. The response was triggered primarily with pup distress sounds, about 75% of the time, between February and October. The other 25% was from rabbit distress, and was equally spread throughout the year. When getting the GYH response, I have only had coyotes come into the stand roughly 25% of the time. The remaining 75% stayed put until I either closed the distance and called in their immediate vicinity, or they just shut up after a short period of time and disappeared.
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