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Author
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Topic: The validity of true damage control work
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 23, 2007 07:18 AM
I'm not going to join the fray in the other thread that is going and damage control was brought up, it has headed elsewhere. But here is a prime example of why damage control is necessary in the area that I live. Yesterday morning we did a little flying in a specific area to clean up a few coyotes. This was within 25 miles of Casper, the largest city in Wyoming and home of probably the most recreational callers in the state, ON PUBLIC LAND, that has been pounded by callers and cat trappers all winter. In poor conditions and 25 mph wind the plane killed 21 coyotes in less than 2 hours in an area that is on both sides of a county road and about a 9 square mile area (3 miles by 3 miles). I don't go in there with ground equipment (traps,snares,M44s) because there are just too many people and too many roads around it and they will steal traps, take down snares and so on. Now I'm guaranteeing you that these coyotes have heard and seen it all. There was even a fresh trap pegged coyote in the bunch. Out of that 21 I would guesstimate there were less that 10% of last years pups. These were the type of coyotes that don't get shot at from the road and don't get fooled by Johnny Stewart. What would have happened to these coyotes if we hadn't of killed them with the plane? Nothing. They simply weren't going to be caught by a cat trapper or called by some guy from Casper out on a weeked foray. They are right in the middle of prime PUBLIC LAND hunting for deer, antelope and sage grouse. Acessible to all of you. Most of the coyotes were paired and I'm sure either bred or about to be. They are really on the fringe of what I would call being a possible detriment to livestock, but close enough to move to the sheep in the area if they so desired.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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scruffy
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posted February 23, 2007 07:26 AM
Now Cal, you went and killed a bunch of "seed" the recreational callers left to make more coyotes on public ground to call in next winter. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
(Edit: Honestly Cal, and don't take this the wrong way because I'm not attacking you or the job you do out west, but I'm a little disappointed in your example. When you said "here is a prime example of why damage control is necessary in the area that I live" I didn't expect to see a plain flying over public ground that had killed 21 coyotes that may (or may not) at some point cause a problem on private ground. I just don't think that's your best example of making it "necessary", unless there is more to the story like coyotes from this public area habitually leave after denning and clear out a sheep heard or something and your making a preimtive strike or something. All you said was they were on the fringe of possibly being a detriment to livestock.
Being on the fringe and them not causing a problem, just being old and "educated", I guess I don't see why it proves your point why damage control is necessary? Simply, your example has no damage???
But I'm sure you have plenty of other examples (hopefully with more pics!) that do. A buddy of mine lives out there and I always enjoy seeing his hunting pics. He keeps telling me if I come up he'll take me out calling. Absolutely beautiful country!!!
later,
scruffy
[ February 23, 2007, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
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nd coyote killer
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posted February 23, 2007 08:52 AM
Cal all of the coyotes were shot in the three mile by three miles unit? Wow that is a lot of closely mated pairs do you notice them seperating out there a little when it gets close to denning or are they all raising the young in those kind of tight confines. That is really packing them in great job!
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 23, 2007 09:07 AM
Scruffy, I was trying two point out two things. One, this was 90% to benefit wildlife on a public land hunting area. Mule Deer, Antelope, and Sage Grouse. Not that much benefit to the local "rich rancher". My point being that not all ADC work is to only help the rancher. You are the landowner in this area. This was to benefit John Q. Public. I have been in that area quite a bit at different times and the doe/fawn ratio on the antelope is about 20%. Which is staggering considering many antelope have twins. There are more hunters of other types than there are coyote hunters. Sorry, but we are the minority. And big game and bird hunters bring more to the economy by far than coyote hunters ever will. That economic impact feeds alot of people in this community, from the guys that feed you at Burger King to the gas stations, motels, grocery stores etc, etc. and that money trickles down to all who live here. Two, these coyotes were not going to be killed by average methods. The local callers had plenty of opportunity at these coyotes and they obviously weren't keeping up. That is a large amount of coyotes to be in such a small area. Some of these coyotes I would place in the 5 to 6 year old range which is old for a coyote in these parts. I explained that conditions were poor, so there is plenty of seed left. With no wind and more time, I think the numbers would have been double. Or maybe we should let them overpopulate a small area like this? There will always be a healthy population of coyotes in the area but there needs to be balance and recreationalists can't keep the balance. We don't have dog wagons to keep things in check for us, and the country is too rough for those guys anyway. You can't even chase them with a snowmobile or a truck. So what is the answer if this is not?
[ February 23, 2007, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 23, 2007 09:36 AM
Good response Cal! Point number one that you make really shows the big picture of ADC and coyotes, one that many don't focus on, instead concentrating on the smaller picture of livestock kills only, and not the entire eco system. I'll admit I wasn't looking at it from the whole eco system perspective when I first read your post, but instead the narrower livestock perspective.
On your second point, my "seed" comment was a joke and meant as such. But good response to it as well. Your right, to keep the balance of the ego system you have to do something. Beside the plane the only "efficient" predator to the coyote is probably the wolf, and expanding the wolf population to control the coyote population may be politically correct in washington but hardly common sense, LOL.
Anyway, keep up the good work and thank you for clarifying. Your right, this is a good example. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
later,
scruffy
[ February 23, 2007, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted February 23, 2007 10:46 AM
Interesting. I sincerely applaud your effort. Sometimes it is easy to forget the bigger picture on who is helped thru ADC and why. As an avid whitetail archery hunter, it is easy to see the necessity for thinning the population with mortality rates like that. May I ask what prompted the fly- over? Complaints? Known high density area?
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Cal Taylor
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Member # 199
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posted February 23, 2007 02:57 PM
It is an area that concentrates coyotes during the winter due to prey base and cover. The south fork of the Powder river flows right through it and it is fairly rough. Lots of cut draws and big sage. Mule deer and antelope historically winter there. Lots of sink holes and rabbits.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Wiley E
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posted February 23, 2007 04:53 PM
Also important to note is the time of year. The recreational hunters have had Nov., Dec., Jan., and most of Feb. to kill these coyotes prior to their removal.
WS is moving into more and more wildlife protection but just as there is places where coyotes keep an already supressed antelope population supressed, there is areas that could use more coyote predation because the horn hunters are not killing enough does. When deep snow sets in, these deer are on someone's stacks and we end up shooting some of these problem deer to save a rancher's hay pile. It's a viscious cycle guys and it varies from year to year and from place to place.
There is a balance in all this and we catch hell from all sides.
For years and years Ducks Unlimited was focusing all of their efforts on habitat development and didn't want to talk about predator control.
Enter Delta Waterfowl who conducted extensive research studies on predation on nesting waterfowl in North Dakota. The nesting success was dramatically increased by the TIMELY removal of skunks and coons in those large nesting blocks.
Now you can open up Cabela's catalog and they pay tribute to Delta Waterfowl's research and recognize the importance of TIMELY removal of predators.
Good post Cal!
~SH~
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KevinKKaller
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Member # 559
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posted February 23, 2007 05:29 PM
Now that is how ADC work was explaind to me in the 70s
Good post CAL
Wiley Have you picked up a set of snow shoes yet
I am still using mine some hear in Id
Good Hunting Kevin
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Maker of K-Kalls
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 23, 2007 09:27 PM
Cal: it sounds like you are haveing too much fun. Oh by the way, can i tag along and load youre shotgun for you, pretty please.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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nd coyote killer
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posted February 23, 2007 09:37 PM
Scott the time of the year is what has me wondering? With out a carcass pile in the area that is a lot of coyotes in close promiximity of each other during this touchy time of the year in their cycle. I have seen in high density areas a lot of coyotes after dispersal like that but this time of the year i figured they would have seperated some to get ready for the denning season.
Cal it is truly amazing the difference that a couple of professionals can make in area.
Great Post!
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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slydog
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Member # 389
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posted February 24, 2007 12:38 AM
Cal & Scott,
Now this is some of the best explanation of what WS is about. Very good job and thank you both for the posts. I'm impressed
sly
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Wiley E
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Member # 108
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posted February 24, 2007 07:26 AM
nd: "Scott the time of the year is what has me wondering? With out a carcass pile in the area that is a lot of coyotes in close promiximity of each other during this touchy time of the year in their cycle. I have seen in high density areas a lot of coyotes after dispersal like that but this time of the year i figured they would have seperated some to get ready for the denning season."
Excellent observation nd.
Coyotes haven't really dispersed into denning areas yet. That's usually in March and if you know where to look in March, you'll see cleanout holes and know the general area they plan to den. Most coyote bitches clean out a lot more holes than they will use for denning.
At this time of year, Coyotes tend to be breeding in a safety zone of habitat near a major food source. Regardless of the severity of the weather, at this time of year we find 90% of the coyotes within 2 miles of cattle, AT THIS TIME OF YEAR. Earlier is different. That's why it's imperative to understand what the coyotes in your area are doing at a particular time of year. The answer is usually in the droppings. In order to really understand coyotes, you really need to analyze droppings for their contents then you'll know right where the yippers are.
To find the coyotes this time of year in this area, you just look for the cattle. Most of the dead deer from deer season are long gone. Most of the carcass piles, PRE CALVING, are long gone. This is the time of year that ranchers tend to pour the nutrition to the cattle to get them ready for calving. The food source is corn, range cake, and a possible slunk calf from cattle IN THIS AREA. You'll find this in the droppings. The cattle are GENERALLY, not always, off the pastures and gathered in close to the buildings where they can be tended which draws the coyotes into smaller areas. A lot of the mangy coyotes are curled up in the hay bales.
Coyotes have no trouble switching food sources at the drop of a hat and that's why they are so resiliant to survive. When nothing else is available, they will eat grass and seeds.
In order to have 21 coyotes in a 9 square mile area, there has to be an abundant source of food near by or in the immediate area unless they were pressed by weather. I'm just curious what the food source in Cal's situation was. My guess would be that the deer or antelope are piled up in there and dying off. My second guess would be a large concentration of cattle nearby. HINT! HINT! I would guess there has to be a pretty abundant source of EASILY OBTAINED food available to pile them up like that but I COULD BE WRONG. It may not have to do with food at all. Weather may have forced them into a small area of protection also. When I find coyotes piled up like that, there is usually a reason why.
One thing I have found out through the years is that there is never as many coyotes in an area as a person thinks there is based on the sign. IN THIS AREA AT THIS TIME OF YEAR, 21 coyotes in an area of that size is the exception, not the rule. It takes a lot of food to supply 21 coyotes in a 9 square mile area. The exception would be weather related when they are pushed out of other areas they have no choice sometimes but to pile up. In that situation (weather related pile up), calling can be incredible because they throw caution to the wind when they are desperate for food.
In this area, back when we had 30% more coyotes (early mange years) if we flew a 4 x 6 track, we might remove 5 or 6 but the area simply didn't have the prey base. What was amazing is that you would have coyote tracks throughout an area like this checking out every source of water, working every brushy creek, and checking out every old bone pile. There would be no tracks entering and no tracks leaving that area and the snow had only laid for a day. Those 5 or 6 coyotes covered a lot of ground WHEN THEY HAD TO.
Another thing most guys don't realize is how quickly a pair of coyotes can clean up a cow carcass. The average fattened steer or heifer weighs 1200 pounds with a carcass yield of 62.5% resulting in a 750 pound carcass. Of that carcass, you have about 450 pounds of meat with the balance being bone and fat. ABOUT!
You'd think it would take a pair of coyotes a long time to clean up ABOUT 450 - 475 pounds of meat and fat wouldn't you? NOT SO! They can do it in 3 days if they want to. HOW? By running off, puking it up, coming back and taking another feed. If they are undisturbed, they will do it in a hurry and they will feed on those caches. That's where the dirthole set concept came from. Everyone thinks that they have a lot of coyotes when a carcass of that size is cleaned up in such a short period of time. They don't!
While we are getting into the calving season, let's talk about how you tell the difference between a calf that was born dead and cleaned up by coyotes and a calf that was alive and killed by coyotes.
First thing is the presence of blood. Blood from a live calf flows freely and is oxygenated (brighter red). Blood from a dead calf is dark in color and piles up. Calves that are killed by coyote leave a lot of blood over a pretty large area.
Second is the visual aspects of a calf. I have pictures but don't know how to scan and post them. On every new born calf there is a soft shell AND NIPPLE of cartilidge on the bottom of
their feet. If that calf has struggled to get up even the slightest bit, they will scrape that soft shell off. When a coyote feeds on a carcass, many times the legs and that cartilidge (sp?) shell is all that remains. If you cannot find bright red blood smeared on the ground and if that soft cartilidge shell remains, chances are they were born dead and fed on after words.
In every situation, I call it as I see it, not as the landowner wants to believe. I have made some guys really mad when they wanted to believe it was a coyote BECAUSE THEY SAW THE COYOTE. They can't argue the facts and I have a responsibility to tell them the truth whether they want to hear it or not.
Another thing to look for if you still have part of a carcass is whether or not the hair is slipping on the calf. If the calf was dead inside the cow for any amount of time before she pushed it out, the hair will be slipping and the calf will take on a totally different appearance.
FWIW, before a cow has a calf that is dead in her body, generally the waterbag will take on a dark color instead of a clear liquid color.
The last piece of the puzzle is the appearance of the cow. Was she nursed. You have to be a cattleman to know that because it's not even easy for some of us to tell that have been in the cattle business our entire lives. More important is her behavior. It seems if there was ever any life in that calf, the cow will act totally different. She will stay close to that calf and do a lot of bawling. If she fought off coyotes, she will be pretty hot and lathered up. In contrast, if the calf was born dead, it wouldn't nurse, the cow might not even hang around but she will show some interest in where the calf was born, and she won't be high headed, lathered up and in a frenzy.
There is a lot of evidence there to tell the difference between a calf that was born dead and fed on by coyotes or a calf that was alive and killed by coyotes.
Another thing is difficult births that result in dead calves. If the cow or heifer had trouble calving, she will be usually be wobbly if she's even able to get up. If the calf was born difficult, usually the tonge and head will be swelled if it remains.
Some say that lung tissue that has taken a breath will float in water and lung tissue that hasn't taken a breath will sink. Can't confirm that either way.
So let's break it down.
CALF KILLED BY COYOTES:
1. Hoof cartiladge scraped from the hoof.
2. Bright red blood smeared on the grass in and aroud the carcass.
3. Calf head and tongue totally normal.
4. Cow lathered up, showing a lot of concern, and may have been nursed.
5. Possibly the rancher saw the calf up.
CALF BORN DEAD AND FED ON BY COYOTES:
1. Hoof cartilidge still in tact.
2. Dark red blood in piles rather than smears.
3. Calf head swelled up and tongue swelled up.
4. Cow wobbly, not nursed, showing little concern.
5. Cherman ND rancher yelling, "BY GAWD I KNOW DEM DARE COYOTES KILLED DAT DARE CALF BY GOLLY CAUSE I SAW DEM DARE COYOTES YAH"
~SH~
[ February 24, 2007, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Cal Taylor
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posted February 24, 2007 08:01 AM
I put several factors into this bunch of coyotes. Foodsource- big game wintering area, sinkholes full of rabbits (millions of rabbits), a prairie dog town, and a few cows wintering there.
Terrain and time of year- We have been getting some big melts and freezes which drives the coyotes out of the riverbottoms and flats. It's too muddy and they hate the mud. I do also. I have at least 50 snares in the river bottoms a mile or so away that aren't getting hit very hard because the coyotes moved to the breaks. The ridges there catch the wind and sun and there is dry ground. Dry ground to sun on and dry ground to run on.
Cover- rough draws and big greasewood. Like I said these coyotes get pounded and wise up to the easily accessable areas and the spots where every Tom, Dick, and Harry pull off of the county road, walk 100yds and make a stand. That and getting shot at from the road will push them back.
Another reason that these coyotes were so killable is that I had been in there days before doing my homework and figuring out where these coyotes were living (Scotts time of year reference)and there were three of us on the ground that morning and we had these coyotes located and basically were guiding the plane via radio specifically right to the coyotes. By howling and glassing we had five or six pairs and threes pinpointed. The rest were found by the plane as he circled from one draw to the next and bounced between us. By being on a high point and glassing while the plane was killing one pair there was good good chance of seeing other coyotes moving out and telling the plane which draw and where they were headed. And some credit to the pilot and gunner. If you have a capable pilot and gunner that can handle coyotes from the air and shoot it becomes much more effective. If they have to screw around with alot of wounded coyotes and multiple passes, other coyotes are going to leave or hide. Contrary to popular belief it is not like shooting fish in a barrel and I have gunned just enough to know that it can be the most frustrating job in the world. In rough country they must handle the coyotes in a way to get the best pass and may stay back and circle to get things right before starting in. If they just dive in on every coyote they see they will spill alot of coyotes. They were fighting the wind and we know some coyotes got out of the breaks or hid, but the coyotes that they actually went after didn't fair to well.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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nd coyote killer
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posted February 24, 2007 08:15 AM
I can see the coyotes following the deer and antelope that happens all the time it just got me thinking because i'm working a den right now that the adults are using right now. I haven't been able to spend enough time in the drainage to see if they have thier alternate dens dug yet but they are definetly using the den that i located right now. With that said having coyotes in those kind of densities is definetly interesting to think about
Scott thanks for laying out the signs that you look for to determine if it was a coyote kill or a scavenging situation i have been looking for better information on that subject.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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JeremyKS
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posted February 24, 2007 08:48 AM
Very interesting subject Cal.
Good post Scott, lots of good info there.
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nd coyote killer
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posted February 24, 2007 08:48 AM
I figured that it was a good group effort Cal it's always nice when a well put together plan goes right huh cal! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I can about imagine once the plane starting shooting it was coyotes running everywhere.
Was the biggest group of three do you remember Cal?
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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TOM64
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posted February 24, 2007 09:26 AM
Thank you Cal and Scott for this post. This is why I spend time on the computer, to learn. And Scott thank you for the step by step.
I do have a question or comment I'd like to address. Both of you pointed out that recreational callers and trappers have hit this area hard and couldn't touch the older smarter coyotes. Which I don't disagree with but could it also be a possibility that those coyotes recently just moved in? Of course if they were hunted every weekend that would be different but basicly, how long have those numbers been that high? Since November?
I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to take this info and apply what I can to my area to be a better caller, we have much smaller ranches here most are 1000 acres or less and everyone runs cattle. I've always known certain times of the year coyotes are close to cattle and the feed issue makes sense, thanks Scott.
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slydog
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posted February 24, 2007 09:28 AM
Scott,
I stand humbly corrected. That was some of your best explanitory wrighting I've seen. I truly enjoyed reading your explanation and found no holes in it, well done sir.
I have seen the same thing here with badger, last year I killed 74 badger in one 5000 acre pasture. There are quite a few contributing factors as to why there were that many badger in that one pasture.
we have the largest badger population in the west right here within a 30 mile radias, centered at the boise airport.
reason #1: we have the largest population of timmothy ground squirrel in the world.
#2 most of the ground in this impact area is private and in close proxcimity to the populis/ Trappers don't want the liability and shooting is not permitted in city limits. So there is no real pressure on them.
summory:
"Good habitat"
"Plenty of food"
and
"No hunting or trapping pressure"
= high density of rodent eaters
Already this year on the same piece of ground I have removed 31 and still counting.
I have several ranches in this impact area and anyone who might question my numbers should try to drive a truck or ATV across one of these pastures........LOL
A few years ago Byron South came out to hunt with me and saw this for himself. He also shot a 38# boar off one of these ranches.
My point is Scott is right as rain, there is always a reason why predators group up. Much of the time its food.
Damn good post Scott.
Cal,
Very good thread and thanks for shairing your observations.
Question: do any of you boys use helicopters in your country.
We do here and they are most effective.
Thanks for shairing the info guys. very well done.
sly
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
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posted February 24, 2007 09:37 AM
Scott: Thanks for the info about the calf kills and still born. When i worked the ranch at home my job was to go into calveing area and attach a twine string to the exsposed leg of a calf and pull them out of the cow..
The info on where to locate coyotes this time of year was right on also. Quit a few years ago i had trouble locateing coyotes, they where moveing from the winter feeding areas to where the cattle were. I met the local Gov. trapper for that area and asked him some questions on this. And like you stated the coyotes were moveing into the areas where the cattle were and they were cleaning up after them, and yes the coyotes could be found with-in two-3 miles of the cattle or deer herds and also prarie dog towns..
Most of the range units i call only have 3-4 coyotes on them and some are almost void of them. The range units are about 4-5 miles wide and upto 15 miles deep, the deeper units will hold a few more coyotes depending on hunting pressure, but on a normal day its usually 2-4 coyotes.
I've seen dead cows and a couple of horses and the coyotes would have them cleaned up in 5-7 days if they were not bothered at the time. One rancher i know would take a dead cow and drag it up to the yard and put it in the open about 100 yds from house and take 3-6 coyotes a year by doing this, now that would be alot of fun. Another ranchers son would take a dead cow and do the same but would put it by the hay stacks that they stock piled for the year. He would then take a shotgun and go out around 10:00 at night and wait for the coyotes to come and feed on it and he would also take quit a few this way.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Wiley E
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posted February 24, 2007 11:24 AM
quote:
SH (previous): "Everyone thinks that they have a lot of coyotes when a carcass of that size is cleaned up in such a short period of time. They don't!"
I need to correct that statement. I was speaking in terms of when there isn't as many coyotes as is usually the case around here. There could also be a pile of coyotes feeding on it and many times IN MANY PLACES there is. My point is that there is not ALWAYS as many coyotes as someone might think particularly around here.
That statement should read, Everyone thinks that they have a lot of coyotes when a carcass of that size is cleaned up in such a short period of time. THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE THE CASE. In this area, under these circumstances, USUALLY IT'S NOT.
Sorry about that!
quote:
nd: "I can see the coyotes following the deer and antelope that happens all the time it just got me thinking because i'm working a den right now that the adults are using right now. I haven't been able to spend enough time in the drainage to see if they have thier alternate dens dug yet but they are definetly using the den that i located right now."
nd, I highly doubt that you have a pair of coyotes using a den right now. This is only the end of February which is when most coyotes are breeding, NOT DENNING. We are not even into the cleanout stage. We don't get into denning for another 2 months and then it's really hard to tell which den is being used until the pups are out of the hole.
A female coyote, when she's ready to pup, will pick out one of her cleanouts and go in and have pups. She might not come out for a while. I'll be able to tell you a lot more in a year from now because BNP recently did some telemetry work on 40 different coyotes getting gps fixes hourly. I'll be able to tell you how long those bitches stayed in the hole after dropping pups before seeking out food. The point is, every cleanout hole she digs IN MARCH will have coyote tracks on it in MAY and there is no way in hell you can tell which hole shes in unless you have a terrier to enter the hole or you hear her growl or you hear the pups. I have only heard the bitch in the hole growl at me one time when I happened to stumble on to a fresh cleanout that just happened to hold a whelping bitch. Most of the denning work we do is after the pups are out of the hole and have playgrounds, toys, and packed down mounds to reveal their activity.
I highly doubt you have a den for two reasons. First, they are not denning yet and second all the cleanouts and the occupied den will have tracks on them when they do whelp. In fact I'd put some money on it that you don't have an active den. Are you sure you don't have a fox den? Fox generally den earlier than coyotes.
Could be a badger hole that was investigated by coyotes. Coyote dens are generally oval in shape about 10" - 12" wide and about 14" to 18" high. They are usually single entrance dens and they are usually in a place that is near water and somewhat remote from human disturbance.
What Cal has stated about handling coyotes with an airplane is true. A gunner and a pilot really need to work in harmony to peel off the skittish coyotes, work them to a place where they can be shot while keeping track of the others. They then go back and keep peeling off singles from the remainder of the group. Sometimes the coyotes scatter and you simply have to take the one that's heading towards a rough area first and play the odds. It's an art form. The dumbest thing a rookie pilot can do is break into a group of coyotes before assessing the entire situation and discussing a game plan unless he's forced to.
We were lucky to have one of the best pilot/gunner combinations in existance. A man that could rattle off three shots in such rapid succesion that you couldn't distinguish individual shots. The coyotes were like noodle strainers when you picked them up and just sloshed. Seldom a second pass. Virtually unmatched by anyone before or since and every pilot that has had him gun will tell you that he could kill them with salt.
Have any of you ever seen a "piss rainbow"? That's one of the funniest things I ever saw. It was early in the morning with low light and we had a coyote breaking a ridge top. We slipped up along side of him with the Huskey and I hammered him with two shots and he somersaulted pissing in the air. It made a beautiful picture perfect "piss rainbow" and we laughed about that all day. Sick bastards huh?
You know the old addage never say never and never say always with coyotes? When a coyote wrings their tail after the shot, they NEVER get up. The wringing tail is a sign of absolute death. I haven't seen the exception to that rule yet but I wonder if it's out there?
Tom64: "Both of you pointed out that recreational callers and trappers have hit this area hard and couldn't touch the older smarter coyotes. Which I don't disagree with but could it also be a possibility that those coyotes recently just moved in?"
I had the same question myself. Excellent observation on your part from the standpoint of a recreational caller (assumed).
Yes, not to contradict what Cal said and he obviously knows this particular situation better than I, but I know enough to know that this tight grouping is not normal FOR WYOMING OR SD DURING THE PRIME FUR SEASON. I repeat, during the prime fur season which would indicate movement from somewhere else. I would guess that more than likely they did move there and I'm going to challenge Cal on something here. Let's assume that those coyotes did recently move in there. If that's the case, you have a slightly different situation than if those coyotes were exposed to calling WHERE THEY MOVED FROM. I can ALMOST guarantee that. If I had coyotes bunched up like that and I was fairly sure they weren't bunched up in that area during the prime fur season (meaning most of them moved in there), many if not most of them are out of their normal environment which means that calling them could be as easy as taking candy from Lance. Chances are, when it was cold the heaviest was early in the prime fur season. The odds are in your favor in a situation like that regardless how much calling pressure they have had in the past. The migration into this area changes the whole scheme of "calling exposure".
My challenge to Cal is, if he believes these coyote moved in there recently, the calling exposure they may have had previously becomes less of a factor and the competition between these coyotes could make their previous exposure to calling virtually irrelevant. Would you argue that?
When coyotes stop responding to dying rabbits, coyotes will stop eating.
Coyotes that are call shy will stop responding to dying rabbits that don't quite sound like dying rabbits coming from a hill near the road where they just heard a vehicle or the same hill that they were shot at before after they heard a vehicle. Call wise coyotes become call wise due to an association of a dying rabbit IMMITATION in conjunction with human related sights and sounds, it's not the dying rabbit in and of itself. Change the environment due to immigration of coytes and add competition of multiple coyotes and you just changed the format.
Excellent point Tom and I agree.
Sly,
74 badgers in 5000 acre pasture? COOL! That's an impressive badger take even with excellent badger numbers. Great job! My father, at 76, absolutely loves trapping badgers and he's gotten quite good at it over the years. He tracks them and camoflauge 220s at the hole they are in. We used to dirthole the mounds but it's fun to 220 them. Excellent way to make a quick buck and badger fur is second to none in beauty and durability. I really enjoy trapping badgers. I think they're a really neat critter. I'd enjoy seeing some pictures of the quality of your badgers if you have some. Preferably with your hand in their back fur so I can see color and density.
The best badger set in this country is a loud skunky dirthole set at the NW corner of a prairie dog town. DAMN, THERE I WENT AND GAVE AWAY A THOUSAND DOLLAR SECRET TO ANYONE WITH AMBITION AND RUINED MY REPUTATION OF NOT GIVING OUT HELPFUL TIPS. DAMN I HATE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS! Lost my head again!
TA,
What I enjoy doing is taking a road kill deer carcass, placing it over a rise with a big flat in front of it, and letting the greyhound dudes smack coyotes with it. Those coyotes are so full and close for the dump that they don't usually get far and it's great PR with the dog guys who can get quite possessive of their coyotes.
~SH~
[ February 24, 2007, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
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posted February 24, 2007 12:12 PM
Scott i will try to get pictures of the den on Monday when i go back but until then i will tell you my observation.
I had located this pair of coyotes a week prior and came back to try and work them over. I got and immediate response at 10 in the morning by doing some locating from the road. I moved in to give them my rendition of the intruding coyote When making my way to the stand i noticed a real mangy coyote slowly walking away at the 300-350 yd range and stopping to look in my direction. needless to say he wanted nothing to do with the call. After 25 minutes or working the set i decided to investigate where the mangy coyote ended up. When i snuck over the hill i noticed a real blond coyote sitting at the edge of some buck brush. I leveled the crosshairs and shot. The coyote hit the dirt and i was about to start patting myself on the back when i noticed the mangy coyote coming on a run from a 100yds past the coyote i just shot. The mangy coyote ran directly to the coyote and dissapeared down the den. So i was a little intrigued at this time. I went to pick up my coyote and to my dismay found that i may not of hit the coyote because it dove down the den. The den had two entraces about 6-8 feet apart. It was obvious that they were spending most of the daylight hours laying around the top of the hole. the snow was all compacted and melted with hair stuck in the ice and some deer hair present. There was well worn paths 8-12inches deep leading to the den from three directions. There was also small drops of blood in random places that i could not decipher but do have a theory. I know for a fact that both coyotes (i'm assuming one dog and one bitch) were in there. I am not saying however that there was pups present that would be supremely abnormal. However i do believe in my opinoin that the pair has picked out their den (this looks to be a previous den from years before)and are simply using it as a "lounging area" but i would love to hear what you guys think about it.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
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posted February 24, 2007 02:16 PM
Nd,
When someone says "denning" I think of "whelping" and when someone mentions coyotes using dens, I think of healthy coyotes, not mangy ones trying to survive.
You have a mangy coyote and it's mate using a "hole" simply for the mangy coyote to survive as opposed to a denning pair of coyotes which typically means whelping.
This is the exception, not the rule. Your original statement would suggest that this pair of coyotes was getting ready for "whelping" by "denning" but they are simply using a hole for survival. That's not normal but mange changes the game.
Thanks for clarifying.
~SH~
[ February 24, 2007, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
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posted February 24, 2007 02:25 PM
that was my fault for the confusion Scott. So would you say that this "hole" has nothing to do with the coming whelping season?
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 24, 2007 02:50 PM
Oh damn, Scott. And I was going to offer up something nice for your explanation above. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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