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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 05, 2007, 11:57 AM:
 
Just looking for a new topic, maybe you all have discussed this before?

When multiple coyotes are coming to the call how do you handle it?

Are you most of the time shooting the closest and easiest?

Trying to shoot a male, female first?

Do you blare away trying to hit the rest running away or wait for a standing shot if terrain allows?

What do ya do to get them to stop?

Recreational callers, contest callers and ADC callers are all going to be different.I have my opionions what's yours?
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 05, 2007, 12:31 PM:
 
In the past i have always let the lead coyote get into shotgun range and then dump the back coyote so that the clean up shots are in close range with the shotgun. Or at least that is how its suppose to work

Steve Allen of ND brought a good point to me in a conversation on this topic. He always shoots the first coyote so the back one has something visual to think about. It makes sense in the fact the if you shoot the back coyote the lead one only has the sound of the rifle to go and CAN be hard to call back in.

In a contest i always take the sure kill. the one in the hand is better then two in the bush thing.

ADC work shoot the coyote that is working the dogs the least (least aggressive) or if they are both aggressive shoot the bitch IF you can tell.

To stop them i have always just barked
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 12:33 PM:
 
I try to keep the group bunched up as much as possible on their way in. Howling in combination with distress calls helps that situation as opposed to creating a race to the chow line.

Secondly, I try to get the furthest animal within gun range and wait for the closest animal to be within shotgun or easy running rifle shot range (50 - 75 yards in front of me with enough area for a good running shot or two). Once the far animal is within gun range I'll stop it and take it and take the close coyote on the run.

I pack a shotgun during competition hunts for hard charging multiples. If that doesn't work, I'll switch over to missles.

If that doesn't work, I'll just range the coyote for you and tell you how much to allow for the wind and you can shoot it just like before. LOL!

Like Jr. says, "RANGE, DIAL, AND SMILE".

To stop them I'll usually bark and/or wave a dark object depending on habitat. I usually try to leave my face exposed which stops them in their tracks. LOL!

Disclaimer: This information is not intended for Smithers as he already knows all of this.

~SH~

[ April 05, 2007, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 12:37 PM:
 
ND,

I do the same thing as Steve Allen if they are tight and for the same reasons. Rolling a coyote up in front of another coyote can at times confuse the follower or followers.

~SH~

[ April 05, 2007, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2007, 12:54 PM:
 
I'll give you another reason why I take the close in chip shot. Broken cover, such as we have in many parts of Arizona, not only can a coyote miss the action happening in front of him, because he is intermitantly blocked out, but they both might not not be visible at the same time? A big consideration is that they (both) can be out of sight in a flash, so if you take out the back animal, the close in animal is gone before you even get a chance to reacquire. This game is a lot different than the wide open prairies. I don't think it is ever wrong to take the lead animal, regardless of other considerations.

Now, in places where visibility is not a factor, I play each situation on it's own merits, no hard and fast rule.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 05, 2007, 01:14 PM:
 
Ok I'm going to try and put a picuture with what I do, these three coyotes laying in the wheat ground in front of the flowers were part of a four pack that came in out of that flower field.

This was an extremely tight area to work, An oil road 200 yards behind me, a gravel road 200 yards to my left,only about 125 yards of open country to shoot in.

They all rolled out pretty much together and I let them come to about 40 yards in front of me, about the where the grass starts in the bottom of the photo.I looked for an adult, no A on it's forehead or anything just based on size it was the one on the far right hanging behind all the rest. I shot him first, it turned out to be the old male, next target was the one in the middle as she stopped to look at Pa, YOY female, third was the one on the far left a running shot before he, YOY male, got to the flowers, fourth one, 10 more yards of cover and it was in trouble.

In this timeframe I like to take adults if possible, I like to put the YOY in a where did mom or dad go panic. They tend to stop and call back if needed. It's not always easy to determine the adults but mannerisms, size will give you a good idea.


 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on April 05, 2007, 01:33 PM:
 
Tight country or at night I take the lead every time. Open country, which I don't get to that often. I definitely try for the trailer first. Not being a crack shot I have a slim chance of stopping the first inside 125.
I yell, "Hey! Stop or i'll shoot"
 

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Posted by canine (Member # 687) on April 05, 2007, 02:08 PM:
 
Randy, where are all the houses and major highways?? LOL

I don’t have a set rule for doubles during breeding season. Usually go with the situation, generally I try and take the less aggressive coyote first. The follower I guess you’d call it. I have found that the more aggressive coyote is easier to get stopped for a shot at him or her. The best sound I have found for stopping that coyote is coyote distress on my power howler. Several times I have even got them to come back closer with a threat howl.

We don’t get many doubles here in Ohio other than early fall when the YOY and parents are still together and breeding season. For the early season hunts with multiples I’ll shoot the YOY first then go for the older coyotes with vocals. Seems to work good that way for me here.

JD
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on April 05, 2007, 02:39 PM:
 
I shoot a lot of coyotes in multiple shot conditions. I think it's important to watch the coyotes. And carefully picking the shots goes a long ways in helping to get more than one of them. When I can, I always shoot the one furthermost from me. I know the closer one is a lot easier to make a hit on. But, I try to work them so the closer one is running in the open, after the shot is made on the farther out one. Some days are better than others.

[ April 08, 2007, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Dan Carey ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 02:46 PM:
 
Randy,

You used decoy dogs on this triple correct?

~SH~
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 05, 2007, 03:00 PM:
 
No Scott, no dogs!!
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 03:04 PM:
 
Why not?

Dogs may have allowed you to kill all four.

WT?

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2007, 03:12 PM:
 
Dogs? We don't need no stinkin' dogs!

edit: Now, who else would criticize killing three out of four, but Brother Scott?

[ April 05, 2007, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 03:24 PM:
 
Who was criticizing a triple brother Leonard?

I simply asked the question why Randy didn't use his decoy dogs on this stand since it's obviously summer time.

If you don't think decoy dogs will increase your percentages on adult coyotes in group situations like this Leonard you are mistaken. I have killed 5 of 6 with decoy dogs and I wouldn't have touched that percentage without them.

~SH~

[ April 05, 2007, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 05, 2007, 03:26 PM:
 
Leonard your right!!

Scott,I was just looking back in my journal and was also working beaver also so guessing that was the reason.My dog box takes up most of the box and I'll bet I had it full of beaver equipment.

This chunk of my area I was working that day was mostly coyotes out of row crops, 6 of the 8 killed came out of row crops.

Dogs would have been great but just didn't have them that day.As we've talked dogs in some of my country don't always improve your odds.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 05, 2007, 03:28 PM:
 
Forgot Bro, big ten four on the WT!!!
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 03:33 PM:
 
What was Leonard right about Randy?

That you don't need no stinkin dogs or that you believe I was criticizing your triple?

Great job on the triple without dogs pard!

I was just curious why you didn't use them and you answered.

Everyone seems a little punchy today. Must be the weather.

~SH~

[ April 05, 2007, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 05, 2007, 03:47 PM:
 
Dog no dog, this scenario like Scott stated wouldn't have happened without the dog. The five coyotes all came from one stand with the old male takin first a YOY second , Momma third, a YOY on top of momma fourth,another YOY on top of momma fifth, the momma showed three fetal scars so I'm pretty sure we got the whole works. The dog was a huge asset.


 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 05, 2007, 03:50 PM:
 
These days i don't see alot of multables, a double once in a while but mostly singles. The area i call is pretty rough so i take the one that gives me the best shot. I stop them with a bark or wave my hand. As of late most of the coyotes come sneaking in and i work them the best i can to get them to exspose themself and then try to take him out..
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 05, 2007, 03:54 PM:
 
I think it would work best to try to get them all in a line and then use a really big gun like a .458 and get them all with one shot.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 03:55 PM:
 
Bet the cattle loved eating that bale.

Hahaha! Just kidding!

Don't want you to think Leonard's right about criticizing a triple let alone a 5 stand.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 03:59 PM:
 
I think it's time to tell you guys that it's really been a privelage working with high quality men like Randy Roede and his calling partner Brent VanderLey. They are both top notch coyote killers from all standpoints (calling, trapping, snaring, M-44s, and aerial hunting). I'm really proud to be a part of such a talented team of coyote killers. We live the good life.

Still wonder how those cows are going to like that bale. Oh well, they need some to lay on too right? LOL!

~SH~
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on April 05, 2007, 05:24 PM:
 
I typically take the first one in. If I have one 50 yards farther out, but I can shoot it without adjusting my hold on sticks or bipod, I will take that shot. If they are all grouped up I shoot the largest. I stop them with the following sounds in sequence until one works: lip squeek, bark, howl, hand wave. After the shot I go to ki-yi's and hope for a stand and look back. If I think they are heavily pressured or I forgot to get my call in a handy place, I will try a running shot.
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on April 05, 2007, 05:26 PM:
 
I try not to think to much
So if there is more then one target running in,
I just set the cross hairs on the lead dog and fire, then just start in at the rest
What ever target I pick up in my cross hairs next is the one i bust the primer on

Let the body's hit the floor

[ April 05, 2007, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 05, 2007, 09:45 PM:
 
Ya know Scott the producer was right there when we took the picture,in fact he helped me get them to stay up on the bale, I had a seasonal ride along that day also and the producer never even brought that up!In fact old Eldon's only comments were that he was sure those were the ones. He had told me about this group when we drove in and included himself as well he should in the whole event. Never underestimate landowner information.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 06, 2007, 12:32 AM:
 

quote:

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Never underestimate landowner information

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quote:

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gut shot coyotes normally head the same way the water would run from the place you shot them.

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I'm not sure exactly what you mean, there? A coyote might stay in a wash and he might not, not sure? What I am sure of is that a crippled bobcat will always go uphill...if he can. If he is going downhill, he will die soon.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 06, 2007, 06:31 PM:
 
Every time I have ever went after a gut shot coyote they have traveled the path of least resistance from that point or from the point of the nearest cover. Down the hill, down the draw, down the creek.

I'm not saying they do this every time, I'm saying that is what I have seen EVERY TIME.

Tom Schmid came up to me at Rawlins one year and thanked me for that tip because they gut shot a coyote and didn't know where he ran. He remembered what I said about gut shot coyotes normally traveling the path of least resistance from the place they were shot and he took that advice and found that coyote.

~SH~

[ April 06, 2007, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 06, 2007, 07:06 PM:
 
Pretty much see the same happen here with a wounded coyote. When hunting along the creeks or drainage ditches the wounded coyote will go where its the easiest to travel like on the ice, have had a few make it to the road and run right down it till they bleed out or just could'nt go anymore. Out west where i call, i had a few wounded coyotes make it to the bottom of drainage and follow it towards the river.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2007, 07:10 PM:
 
No, I agree with you, if there is terrain that can be followed. What I am pointing out is the difference between the cat and the dog. The cat always climbs, unless he's mortally wounded, and then it's a short search, if you know where to look.

That's where I'm not sure? Gut shot? Maybe? But blow a leg off and will he always head downhill? A cat won't, for sure. Coyote? I really don't have enough data to have a strong opinion, one way or the other. But, in the case of a gut shot coyote, I have to go along with you.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 07, 2007, 07:42 AM:
 
Hey talk about findin coyotes, Brent and I were floating beaver last weekend through some country we had called in a contest. Talking about the stands and coyotes and I look on the bank and there lays a coyote?

I looked around and asked brent, isn't this were you had shot and missed that one coyote Yea he says, Heck there he lays I said. We pull over to the bank and sure as heck its him.

We had called there, a coyote came in ,he thought drilled it but then a another coyote busted out and hit the river ice running, we thought it was the same coyote and thought he had missed him?Tall grass, deflection etc. He even went over to check but must have been off where he looked and it was in some really thick stuff!The higher water had laid some of the thick stuff down in fromt of it so we could see it from the water.Could have cost us some money but it wasn't a factor,still won by two so no big deal,it was later in the day and we were set up looking in the sun as we worked east to west and he had a eyeful of the big yellow ball in his scope.Lesson learned!
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 07, 2007, 01:55 PM:
 
Lung or gut shot. I've done my share. Lunger's run mighty far, compared to gut shot. Three Winter snowfly's ago. I spotted a pair balled up between some corn rows, a tad over the East/West 1/2 mile fenceline.

It was brutal out, wind rippin out of the North. WC, upper-20's. I was set for 300yrds. I got to my last hilltop. Closest coyote had it's back to me a tad over 300est.

I went prone, aimed mid back, nailed him good. He's running, pronking, looping in large circles. I'm leading & shooting. Couldn't re-connect.

The other coyote bolted hard, NorEast bound. Also there was "5" other coyotes, that sprang-up [buried in the snow between the rows]. All the runner's, merged into a tight formation, hauling mail.

I didn't track the tagged one, as my eye's wanted to freeze shut.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2007, 02:06 PM:
 
quote: (I didn't track the tagged one, as my eye's wanted to freeze shut.)
Get a pair of ski goggles!
I carry a pair in the truck for when the Alberta clipper comes down. I took mine and placed very narrow strips of black tape across the lens, this helps to prevent snow blindness and the goggles keep youre eyeballs from freezeing...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 07, 2007, 02:29 PM:
 
lung shots run further than gut shot? That's interesting. I would think it would be reversed?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2007, 02:35 PM:
 
Quote:(Lung or gut shot. I've done my share. Lunger's run mighty far, compared to gut shot.)
I find this to be the oppisite, if the coyote was actually hit in the lungs they don't go very far at all, usually a couple hundred yards.
The gut shot ones can go a bit farther and will look for a place to lay-up. Just like a gut shot deer, i let the coyote be for a hour or two then go after him. Usualy find them laying under a tree or the creek bank dead..
A coyote hit in the back leg or front leg can go for quite a few days. When they bed down they will leave a big pool of blood in there bed. By the second day the bleeding is reduced to just very small drop lets of blood every few feet and some times no blood at all. just keep tracking and hope he can be pushed to a blocker or brought out into the open. I have found that a wounded coyote canbe one of the hardest to track down, when they know they are being persued they will use every trick that they can think of in order to survive. They will go into the real thick stuff and then come out the other side takeing a path of least resistance to gain some extra ground. They will get on a used deer trail and then try for a getaway. Very hard to find a track, so i have to look for a few hairs or a speck of blood. I remember Rich C. said that calling coyotes is a art, try tracking coyotes once, not alot of hunters can keep on a track, actually very few...

Yes Leonard; same thought here as well..

[ April 07, 2007, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 07, 2007, 02:59 PM:
 
I've had quiet afew broadside "lung"[mid/front chest] shot coyote run like heck for a long ways.

One I shot @ around 50' away broadside with a 95gr BT, last Fall. That coyote along with the rest of the pack. Ran over 1/2 mile out of their section & into the next section & disappeared.

The one's, I've gut shot. Will have spurts of energy, run alittle aways then sit, then run, then sit.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2007, 03:13 PM:
 
Quote:(One I shot @ around 50' away broadside with a 95gr BT, last Fall. That coyote along with the rest of the pack. Ran over 1/2 mile out of their section & into the next section & disappeared.)
At 50' no way in hell is a coyote shot in the lungs going to run that far, let alone get up. I shoot the little bitty 17 cal and a coyote hit in the chest or lungs does not walk away from it. Since the coyote was that close when you shot you most likely shot under it and grazed a leg or just plain missed...
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 07, 2007, 03:40 PM:
 
"lung shots run further than gut shot? That's interesting. I would think it would be reversed?"
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Exactly reversed Leonard, ya got that one right. Somebody around here is full of shit. Sometimes it just takes longer for some folks to prove themselves around here than it does for others. If someone shoots a coyote in the lungs with a 95 grainer and it runs off, he must have forgot to charge that round with powder. LOL
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 07, 2007, 05:56 PM:
 
2dogs this coyote was stone dead and hadn't moved, we had just thought the one that appeared on the ice was this coyote. We did not see the second coyote, after the barriage on the ice he went to see if he had hit the coyote we had presumed had run away and found nothing. It explains why he never found a blood trail or any evidence of a hit on a coyote that never moved. This shot was at about 150-175 yards into the setting sun. The cover on the edge of the river was tall grass with little to reference to when looking to remember where the first shot ocurred.

I'll have to agree a lunger will die much quicker than a gutter even when your gutters are the draggin parts and pieces behind!2 dogs are you shootin full metals?We used to shoot those in the fur $ days and a lung hit took awhile but still quicker than a gut shot.Something sounds out of whack!
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 07, 2007, 07:10 PM:
 
Randy,

I've used FMJ's before with different cals[M-1 carbine & an AK-47]. FMJ's, don't cause much shock/truama. Compared to SN, HP's or BT's.

This 50' coyote was shot with my .243WSSM AR 95gr Winchester Silver Ballistic tip. I'm guessing the round didn't frag. Coyote dropped like an anvil down over the opposite side of the hill top. From where we met each other.

Next time I seen it, it was running up across the valley side.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 07, 2007, 07:24 PM:
 
A lung shot coyote doesn't just pile up after a short run. Unless of course the bullet cut it's pulmonary artery[s], vein[s] or decending Aorta.

If "anyone" shot plenty of coyote's broadside in the lungs. Then they would know this. A lung shot coyote "can" run a heckuva long ways, before crumpling.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 07, 2007, 07:27 PM:
 
Rich C,

I share my hunts. You go ahead & choose to believe them or not. No big whoop to me. I've been hunting them along time, longer than you. I don't have to prove a thing .
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 07, 2007, 07:59 PM:
 
Look 2dogs...... You might have been hunting coyotes since Christ was a Corporal, but don't try to wiggle your way out of this one.

A coyote hit in the lungs will never in hell travel a half mile. Okay? Not even open for debate, you're wrong, mistaken. Especially if you claim it happens routinely. But, if you saw this particular coyote run off a half mile with others, he wasn't hit in the lungs. You made a bad hit somewhere else; it's that simple?

So, just shut up about it. Let it go, you ain't gonna win.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2007, 08:02 PM:
 


[ March 28, 2010, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 07, 2007, 08:10 PM:
 
Boot me.

[ April 07, 2007, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2007, 08:23 PM:
 
Like Leonard said you are just mistakeing to where the bullet hit. You said the coyote ran off, so how do you know you hit him in the lungs?
Where i hunt if we get a wounded coyote we go after it and get it most of the time. And then we find out where the shooter actualy hit the coyote on the first shot. 99% is due to a badd hit..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 07, 2007, 08:58 PM:
 
Look 2dogs, I can ignore some of the stuff you come up with and I do not hold a grudge. I don't need to boot you. If you cannot accept criticism, just go somewhere else. But, you are welcome to stay....just quit trying to pound sand up our ass.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 07, 2007, 10:41 PM:
 
At 50ft you likely shot under him, maybe grazed him. If he ran 1/2 mile just to get to the next section & then after that he disappeared, that`s what,a mile or more.....how far can a coyote go at a dead run with no oxygen?
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 07, 2007, 10:43 PM:
 


If you have "Lung shot" coyotes running off, either you have serious bullet failure, you are using FMJ bullets, or you just thought you hit the lungs, but missed them.

The only faster way to drop a coyote, is to hit the brain or the spine forward of the front legs.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 08, 2007, 05:38 AM:
 
Coyote was hit broadside in the chest. Coyote's legs dropped out from under him/her like he was struck by lightening over the ridge top.

No, Leonard I don't pound sand. Just because someone has never experienced something doesn't make it not true.

Some other coyote's, I've shot broadside in the chest with other centerfires have ran. Some ran far[not recovered]. I'm betting their are folks on here. Who have done/seen the same. They just haven't/won't say..."now".

Any experienced coyote killer, know's coyotes can sometimes, take a beating. No big surprise, really.

Ever seen a solid Yellow coyote? I have, I've seen one. I suppose that's BS, as well

What about coydogs...Are they, BS too. Yah, if you haven't "ever" seen one.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 05:59 AM:
 
2 dogs,

Let's review what you said,

2 dogs: "Lung or gut shot. I've done my share. Lunger's run mighty far, compared to gut shot."

That's just bullsh*t!

If you gut shoot a coyote with a FMJ and you pursue that coyote, he can run for 4 to 6 hours. Running only far enough to get ahead of you then laying up again.

In contrast, I have shot 55gr. FMJ in the 70's to try to reduce fur damage on red fox. I shot 55 gr. Nosler boatail "spitzers" later and can't remember a coyote running anywhere that was lung shot. I switched over to 55gr. Nosler ballistic tips for better accuracy and prevent the bullet tips from deforming during chambering. These bullets when punched between the rib going in, would allow coyotes to run up to 110 yards but that is the furthest I can ever remember. It was frustrating as hell because I had to rely on coyote body language and audible bullet report to know where they were hit. I was told by Nosler that their early ballistic tips had a heavier jacket. I called the company to complain about bullet performance in comparison to the old "spitzers". Nosler said that their new 55 gr. ballistic tips had a lighter jacket. Now I shoot 52 gr. Hornady A-max and the coyotes are dropping in their tracks again.

My dad shot a doe deer back in the 70s through both front lung lobe tips that was still alive the following day. That deer was necropsied. All I can tell you is that I have always been critical of my dad for not keeping his broadheads as sharp as they should be so I don't know if this particular arrow was razor sharp or not. Nobody could believe it until they saw it.

Lungers do not run mighty far COMPARED TO GUTSHOT. Gutshots normally run much further.

The farthest I have ever saw a coyote run when punched with a 55 gr. Nosler heavy jacket ballistic tip between the ribs going in and through the lungs was about 110 yards. In contrast, you can push a gutshot coyote for 4 to 6 hours.

Who do you think you're kidding?

Don't worry, If I had ever seen them go further, I wouldn't hesitate to speak up.

~SH~

[ April 08, 2007, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 08, 2007, 06:08 AM:
 
Wiley,

What I stated, is not confusing. They do/can run far. Never said, they run "farthest" than a gut-shot coyote, as in "total distance".

The coyotes I've gut shot, have run in short distance's, stopping freguently. Lungers, run until they crumple or find safety.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on April 08, 2007, 06:15 AM:
 
Like JD, mentioned. Har far do you suppose a coyote can run, W/O breathing? As in taking another breath.

A coyote can do around 40mph or better. That's a lot of ground covered, before having to take another breath.

Now that same lung shot coyote with it's fight/flight syndrone[Adrenaline] kicked on high. It's no stretch.

[ April 08, 2007, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 06:37 AM:
 
2 dogs: "Never said, they run "farthest" than a gut-shot coyote, as in "total distance".

2dogs (previous): "Lunger's run mighty far, compared to gut shot"

ah...ok?

Here 2dogs, grab this shovel.

You should quit while you're behind. LOL!

~SH~

[ April 08, 2007, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 08, 2007, 06:46 AM:
 
I've seen coyotes run of after being hit in the lung area, it was with a .17 Remington years ago. My cousin bought one and all we had were Remington factory hollow points, he loaded them as fast as he could. The first half a dozen or so we never found then he hit one and it ran towards him allowing a couple more shots and it died. We skinned it just to see what was happening and the first bullet blew up on the rib cage. That's the only circumstance I can recall that a lung shot coyote ran off.
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 08, 2007, 07:05 AM:
 
I've had multiple multiples come to the call. I almost always take the easiest shot first what ever that may be, then I go for what ever I think I can get.
It's very hard when all the ( 3-4 or 5 ) coyotes come in at once to get every one of them.
On the other hand if they come in one or two at a time you can have a pile of dead coyotes after the smoke clears.
Have you guys changed the subject to multiple lung shot coyotes That subject don't interest me at all.

Just my old senile opinion.

[ April 08, 2007, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on April 08, 2007, 07:49 AM:
 
The only lungs shots that I have seen run half mile or slightly more I have shotgunned with number four buck shot with maybe a few or less thru the lung and intestines. Initailly the adrenaline compensates ,but as it subsides and the lungs fill with blood the coyotes just slows and slows until he is out of gas and expires. As far as rifle lung shots they often bite at the wound while cirling but they don't go very far, usually just a matter of yds.It depends on how much initial damage is done.
2dogs as far as you having been at this longer than Rich C., DREAM ON YOU KNOW NOT WHO YOU SPEAK OF.About the time I start to believe your stories, You make observations contrary to others experience and I cannot figure out if you are for real or an imposter. Maybe some of both ,makes no difference to me or you.You seem to want the rest of us to beleive you know something we don't in being contrary.
You saying you" don't play well with others" seems to be quite accurate."thanks

[ April 08, 2007, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 08, 2007, 10:03 AM:
 
It's easy to say lung shot, when the animal is not recovered. In the case of Wiley's example, my bet is that the deer didn't run or walk anywhere, it just holed up, like they say smoke a cigarette, or whatever and then go look for him. But, regardless of the bullet use, a FMJ zipping through the ribs, he will still be sucking air through the holes and he is going to die while attempting his escape, and it will happen long before he gets a half mile away.

A heart shot can run maybe fifty yards with no sign of a hit before dropping dead. Lung shots, with proper cartridges and nominal foot pounds of energy will not normally run off, and when they do, they don't get much further than a heart shot.

I guess I have seen a few make it to 110 yards, and one in particular was very close, when shot broadside and the bullet didn't open up, exited small and although he bit at the entrance, he ran off with great power. I didn't know it, but he dropped dead, just out of sight. I was so surprised, I didn't even think to chamber another round.

But, 110 yards (rare occurance) is not lending credence to claims of a coyote running 880 yards. (½mile, 8X further) This is not where we can allow somebody to say shit like; just because you never seen it, doesn't mean that it's not possible. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say it's not possible...prove me wrong.

As Doubting Thomas said: until I put my finger in the wound, I shall not believe in miracles.

Good hunting. LB

[ April 08, 2007, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 08, 2007, 01:05 PM:
 
2dogs, seriously man, take Scotts advice & "quit while you`re behind" Nobody...nobody!!!! believes a word of what you`re saying, it`s not true no matter how much you try to make it sound true.

The way you go about telling lies & then doing your best to back pedal out of them is entertaining at times but I think it`s starting to grow old.

One time I saw a coyote perform CPR on his/her buddy who had been lung shot, it worked too, I never did find that coyote & I know it was a GOOD lung shot & don`t try to tell me it aint true because I was there & that`s what I figured took place, just because "you`ve" never seen it doesn`t mean that it cant/doesnt happen.

See what I mean...entertaining yet old.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 08:22 PM:
 
I agree Leonard and the only reason I know the one was 110 yards was because I was so stunned at what I just saw that I had to step it off. Like I said, that was a heavy jacket early model 55 gr. Nosler ballistic tip between the ribs on the way in and through the lungs. This coyote literally painted the grass red and was basically running dead.

As you say, 110 yards is a far cry from a half mile.

Before I owned a high powered rifle, we shot coyotes with a .22 rimfire. We snuck up on them in their sleep and shot them. If they were shot in the lungs, they were dead. That's all there was to it.

We also used to shoot all of our trapped coyotes in the lungs with a .22 rimfire. You could set your watch by the amount of time it took them to bleed out. Never had to shoot them twice.

~SH~

[ April 08, 2007, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 10, 2007, 06:23 PM:
 
OK guys, Back to the 52 grain A-Max bullet.I know a few of you guys have been using them,I just bought a box and plan to use them on coyotes for my .22-250.How do they compare to the 55 grain gamekings(#1365)? Heavy jacket?Does the bullet have more controlled expansion etc. than the V-max type bullets?How do you like them for terminal energy on coyotes?Surface splashes?I know that Hornady says that they are ultra low drag and very accurate.But what say you guys?

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 10, 2007, 06:43 PM:
 
I have had a little problem seating them, in that they deform because the (my) seating stem is too small and it leaves a detent ring on the copper of the ogive below the plastic. But, this depends on your case neck thickness, also. Does it have any effect, other than appearance? I doubt it?

For my money, the 55 Nosler Ballistic Tip is a better bullet for coyotes.

And anyway, I thought you were a confirmed 204 user?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2007, 07:04 PM:
 
I have been useing the 52 gr. A-Max in my 22-250 ackley. The jacket is a little heavier than a reguler Ballistic tip so i don't get the splatter wounds with it. The A-max has a good B.C. for the longer ranges and tracks a straight path to a long range target, better groups. I also use a Sierra 52 gr. Hp. match in a 22-250 for close to med. range, the bullet dosent group very well at longer ranges. I have tried alot of bullets that are out there and i'm happy with the A-max, good vel, good accuracy and it dose a good job on the coyotes with out makeing a big mess.
Leonard told me about a 65 gr. that i might try and see how it compares to the A-max, if my gun can shoot it..
I believe Cal has been useing the A-max and he could chime in as well...
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 10, 2007, 08:44 PM:
 
When I used my 22-250 for coyotes I always used the 55gr noslers, I would have to check but it seems like they were loaded a touch slower to get a good group in my gun, I think in the 3600 range but they did perform well on coyotes. FWIW

Of course everyone knows that 25gr is more than enough bullet.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 10, 2007, 09:10 PM:
 
The 52 grain A max is what we shoot in our state 22-250 rifles, factory ammo,HSM brand,the quatering toward shot with bullet placement on the exposed shoulder has resulted in a wound about an inch deep and tennis ball wide time after time.Any contact with that shoulder blade and all penetration stops. Its cost me a few coyotes.Broadside just behind the shoulder, beautiful!Straight on center mass lethal!Just that shoulder hit problem, knocks em flat but they stagger up and stumble off or would have!
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 10, 2007, 09:12 PM:
 
Leonard:And anyway, I thought you were a confirmed 204 user?

LOL! I do really love my .204 but like you say it's the Golf Bag deal.

If I am calling for Fur I will definitely reach for the .20 cal with 35 grain bergers.

But I still like to shoot my .22-250.I was planning on going down to Williams for the World hunt last year(even talked to Rich H. on the phone about it) but ended up not going,but I might try to make it down this year,if I do I would probably take the .22-250 and I want a bullet that will perform out to 400 yards if needed(I do use and like the 55 sierra gameking)just heard alot of good things about the A-max both with speed and knockdown.I guess I still don't have the total confidence in the 35 bergers for terminal knockdown at those EXTENDED ranges.

Good Hunting Chad

[ April 11, 2007, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2007, 11:35 PM:
 
Is there a bullet out there that won't do that when hit in the shoulder????
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 11, 2007, 05:06 AM:
 
TA, a 60 grain Nosler Partition does a pretty good job on the shoulder blade but the ball joint would be a different deal I bet. This is out of .223 speeds, I never found a 22-250 that would group those well enough to use.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on April 11, 2007, 05:09 AM:
 
Yes TA17 nosler partitions and hunting bullets designed for big game.

Varmint type bullets are thin walled no getting around that and getting close to 4,000fps and have a bullet hit a solid object will ask alot from a bullet for sure. The A max is a great bullet though. I think one would see more with the v-max as that is thinner jacketed yet.

25 caliber 100-115 gr bullets don't leave that splash but again your back into a big game type bullet and slower speeds as well.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 11, 2007, 08:09 AM:
 
The regular old 55 grain soft point regardless of what flavor penetrated much better on this type of hit.Hell I've shot a bunch with 223, a pile, and never the problem like with this 250 bullet!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2007, 09:00 AM:
 
I have a theory that I go by, in .224; suitable coyote bullets begin at 55 grain. Less weight, 50-52-53, are usually intended for squirrels or targets.

This splash phenomena is something that is expected with seventeen caliber bullets and rifles. It is not something we should be seeing with proper .224" bullets. The quest for speed needs to be rethunk if the application involves bullets selected solely on weight with the intention of driving them faster than the speed of light....without regard for bullet construction.

I admit to having killed a number of coyotes and bobcat with 52 gr. Speer HPs, but generally, this was at night with the animal facing me; at 220 Swift velocities.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 11, 2007, 09:02 AM:
 
Could not agree with you more Leonard!
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 11, 2007, 09:03 AM:
 
I haven't had much problems with the 52 gr. A-MAX but maybe I haven't hit a coyote in the shoulder yet.

I really liked the later model, heavier jacketed Nosler 55gr. ballistic tips.

My all time favorite for performance on coyotes was the Nosler 55 gr. softpoint boattail "spitzers" but the ballistic tips are more accurate and the tips don't deform while ejecting them in and out of the chamber.

~SH~
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 11, 2007, 09:37 AM:
 
Randy,

That makes alot of sense about the soft points.I have used the sierra softpoints(#1365)and they work good for coyotes.

Leonard,

you stating my using the .204 and Randy and the soft points,I might have a solution to my problem.lol

I just ran some numbers comparing the 55 grain sierra soft points in my .22-250 and the 45 grain Hornady soft points for my .204.This is what I come up with.

The .22-250

Drop= 1.0" high @ 100 yrds,zero @ 200 yrds,-5.5 @ 300 yrds,-17.0 @ 400 yrds

Windage(10 mph)= 1.0" @ 100 yrds,4.1 @ 200 yrds,9.9 @ 300 yrds,18.7 @ 400 yrds

Velocity= 3610 fps muzzle,3171 fps 100 yrds,2777 fps 200 yrds,2416 fps 300 yrds,2084 fps 400 yrds

Energy= 1587 lbs muzzle,1227 lbs 100 yrds,942 lbs 200 yrds,713 lbs 300 yrds,530 lbs 400 yrds

The .204

Drop= 1.0" high @ 100 yrds,zero @ 200 yrds,-5.5 @ 300 yrds,-17.1 @ 400 yrds

Windage(10 mph)= 1.0" @ 100 yrds,4.2 @ 200 yrds,10.0 @ 300 yrds,19.1 @ 400 yrds

Velocity= 3625 fps muzzle,3180 fps @ 100 yrds,2779 fps @ 200 yrds,2411 fps @ 300 yrds,2072 fps @ 400 yrds

Energy= 1313 lbs muzzle,1010 lbs @ 100 yrds,771 lbs @ 200 yrds,580 lbs @ 300 yrds,429 lbs @ 400 yrds

They are pretty comparable(B.C on the .22-250 bullet is .250 with a sectional density of .157,and the .204 bullet has a B.C of .245 with a sectional density of .155) ,so maybe I will just stick with the .204 and shoot the 35 bergers for fur and those times I need alittle more smack I can shoot the 45 grain soft points.Now if they would just shoot in the same place on paper I wouldn't have to sight it in for each load.That would be the perfect setup.LOL Good Hunting Chad

[ April 11, 2007, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2007, 09:57 AM:
 
Yeah, if foot pounds of energy mean nothing at extended (unknown) range?

[ April 11, 2007, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 11, 2007, 10:30 AM:
 
Scott, both Brent and I have seen the same results repeated times, we have seen it as close as 50-100 yards with the vitals intact or just slightly damaged. An obvious pattern we both noticed. I have one on video.

Ut-the windage correction of the two really suprised me, virtually the same, do they seperate further with higher mph? I had heard they did. 10 mph here is a calm day.

Leonard-I truly need that downrange energy also, I shoot an AR in the contests we enter and notice the lack of that immediately in the 200 plus coyotes.Can't expect it to do something it's not made for!The AR works great on the close hard chargers etc.Just not a long range thumper.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 11, 2007, 11:02 AM:
 
Randy: "Scott, both Brent and I have seen the same results repeated times, we have seen it as close as 50-100 yards with the vitals intact or just slightly damaged. An obvious pattern we both noticed. I have one on video."

I don't doubt you, I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet.

~SH~
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 11, 2007, 12:09 PM:
 
Randy,

I put in the numbers for the same bullets with a 25 mph wind.

.204

2.5 @ 100 yrds,10.5 @ 200 yrds,25.1 @ 300 yrds,47.7 @ 400 yrds

.22-250

2.4 @ 100 yrds,10.3 @ 200 yrds,24.7 @ 300 yrds,46.9 @ 400 yrds

still seems close.

As far as energy goes even at 500 yrds they are fairly close.The .22-250 has 386 lbs to the .204's 310 lbs only 76 foot lbs difference.or about 20% more foot pounds of energy at 500 yrds

Randy you better do like Cal Taylor and get you a .204 barrel for your AR. Good Hunting Chad

[ April 11, 2007, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on April 11, 2007, 12:48 PM:
 
How does a 45gr in a 223 compare to the 45gr in a 204? I know the 204 has a little more case capacity, and a higher bc, so I know it's better, but how much better, ballistically?

And maybe no one makes a good 45 grain sp in .224 to make the question even valid?

later,
scruffy

[ April 11, 2007, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 11, 2007, 01:20 PM:
 
.223 Remington

45 grain Sierra B.C .210

Drop= 1.3" high @ 100,zero @ 200,-7.0 @ 300,-22.1 @ 400

Windage(10mph)= 1.3 @ 100,5.4 @ 200,13.1 @ 300,25.6 @ 400

Velocity= 3417 muzzle,2928 @ 100,2486 @ 200,2087 @ 300,1728 @ 400

Energy= 1166 muzzle,855 @ 100,617 @ 200,435 @ 300,298 @ 400

55 gr .250 B.C

Drop= 1.4 high @ 100,zero 200,-7.1 @ 300,-21.1 @ 400

Windage= 1.1 @ 100,4.7 @ 200,11.3 @ 300,21.1 @ 400

Velocity= 3250 muzzle,2853 @ 100,2486 @ 200,2148 @ 300,1838 @ 400

Energy= 1292 muzzle,994 @ 100,755 @ 200,563 @ 300 412 @ 400
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on April 11, 2007, 01:32 PM:
 
That's very interesting, the 223 55 beat out the 45 in every long range catagory, long range trajectory, velocity, punch, wind, etc.

and the 55gr 223 compared to the 45gr 204, at 400 yards, shows the .204 has a 4" trajectory advantage, 2" wind advantage, and 17ft/lbs advantage.

With all the comparisons of the 204 to the 22-250 I guess I thought it wouldn't be a contest between the 204 and 223, but the numbers are closer than I thought.

Thanks for looking them up/generating them/etc.

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 11, 2007, 03:14 PM:
 
Ut-your right you make a very good case for the 204 I am surprised! Thanks for all the info.

I will be thinking a little more about this and have been thinking about a new AR, I had been leaning toward the 243 but this makes me think.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2007, 04:38 PM:
 
Apples to oranges, Randy.

We should try to makea fair comparison, same ballistic coefficient, same sectional density, same ogive and point configuration, same base, flat/boat tail.....same standard bullet model.

You can not get away comparing a heavy 204 to a lighter 224 at lower relative velocities.

I think to be fair, we should compare hunting bullets, rather than VLD types. Not that this is what Chad is using; but it really doesn't make sense to look at these drop charts and claim the a twenty caliber bullet is equal to a comparable twenty-two caliber bullet.

Even if you select a heavier .204 and a lighter for caliber .224 bullet, the trajectory will favor the longer and heavier bullet design. Enough to make you think that the laws of physics have been repealed.

One thing for sure, every time we think we have ballistics figured out, somebody, somewhere offers some numbers that tend to counter what we hold near and dear.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 11, 2007, 05:03 PM:
 
Leonard , these type of things are exactly why I have waited and waited longer as the years add up to make decisions on outdoor gear. New stuff comes out so fast and furious, then disappears as quickly as it came.

I like the AR in 223, cheap to shoot does the job on 200yard and in coyotes,I like the quick followup and the advantage on multiples, I'm not asking it to be deadly out to 400 like I do with my 250 and any attempt at making it something it is not results in a game of give and take.

I am leaning toward a 243 to be a deer, antelope, coyote, cross functioning tool!!Maybe in the AR format maybe not.still deciding.

You are correct: apples to oranges
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 11, 2007, 05:14 PM:
 
Randy R,
I think the .243 would be your best bet. Take a look at this bullet from Speer. http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/bullet_detail.aspx?id=18
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2007, 05:31 PM:
 
Oh yeah, forgot that part. I would favor the 243, if you are looking at a chambering in an AR specifically for coyotes at further distances. Slower velocity, bit more midrange trajectory, but you cannot beat that BC and it smacks a coyote very hard, no "surface splashes" with a 243.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 11, 2007, 07:08 PM:
 
Yeah, the .243 will be a thumper for ya. Stay away from those 6mm remmies though, Ive witnessed some gawd awful "splashes" with that particular cartridge:)
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 11, 2007, 07:19 PM:
 
Az-Hunter,
I believe you are a much better rifleman than I, but please take another glance at the reloading manuals. I think you will notice that the 6mm Remington is very close to same velcity as a .243 when shooting same bullet. As you know, the bullet construction is very important for Randy's intended use. The particular 85 grain Speer that I recommended is designed for big Game hunting. Surface blowup on coyotes or deer should be a rare thing with that bullet.
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 11, 2007, 07:23 PM:
 
I know all that Rich....my response was a private jab at one of our members onboard, Bosinski will knwo what IM talking about:)
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 11, 2007, 07:25 PM:
 
Leonard:We should try to makea fair comparison, same ballistic coefficient, same sectional density, same ogive and point configuration, same base, flat/boat tail.....same standard bullet model.

Leonard,

I thought that's exactly what I did.

.22-250 rem. 55 grain sierra sbt(1365)
B.C = .250
sectional density = .157
55 grain soft point
3610 fps muzzle

.204 Ruger 45 grain flatbase sp
B.C= .245
sectional density=.155
45 grain softpoint
3625 fps muzzle

That looks pretty apples to apples to me.

That's about as close as you can get when comparing the two.FWIW

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2007, 08:12 PM:
 
Yes you did, Chad. I wasn't questioning your data, just making general comment about all the focus on light bullets versus heavy bullets and their purpose, etc. Some people think speed is God without regard for bullet design or the application. Two posts had me thinking about that, what Scrffy said about 223's and 204s and then what Randy said about his considerations, 204 versus 243. I was attempting to make a point that there is more to the question than cartridges and random bullet selection. As I also pointed out previously, the ft/lbs is where we see the difference and sometimes that makes a difference between a bullet opening up or a pass through. What do your numbers show for those two examples, at 500 yards?
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 11, 2007, 08:22 PM:
 
Leonard:What do your numbers show for those two examples, at 500 yards?

Comparing the two bullets and calibers from above.

.22-250 has 386 ft lbs of energy at 500 yrds.

.204 has 310 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2007, 10:27 PM:
 
That's what I thought and it does not make much sense, to me?

Apparently that 204 has some real magic?

22-250 @muzzle = 1587 ft/lbs
204 @muzzle = 1313 ft/lbs
-------------------------------------------------
274 ft/lbs difference

22-250 @100yds =1227 ft/lbs
204 @100yds=1010 ft/lbs
-------------------------------------------
207 ft/lbs difference

22-250 @200yds = 942 ft/lbs
204 @200yds = 771 ft/lbs
--------------------------------------------
171 ft/lbs difference

22-250 @300yds = 713 ft/lbs
204 @300yds = 580 ft/lbs
------------------------------------------
133 ft/lbs difference

22-250 @400yds = 530 ft/lbs
204 @400yds = 429 ft/lbs
--------------------------------------------
101 ft/lbs difference

22-250 @500yds = 386 ft/lbs
204 @500yds = 310 ft/lbs
--------------------------------------------
76 ft/lbs difference

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 12, 2007, 07:16 AM:
 
Leonard:That's what I thought and it does not make much sense, to me?

Apparently that 204 has some real magic?

That's what I've been trying to tell ya.lol

And it only gets closer when you get to Sly's sniper ranges of 600-700 yards.

.22-250

600 yards= 278.3

.204

600 yards= 221

difference of 57 ft lbs

.22-250

700 yards= 201.3

.204

700 yards= 159.1

difference of 42 ft lbs

Good Hunting Chad

[ April 12, 2007, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 12, 2007, 08:30 AM:
 
My problem with the 204 is I can't seem to get the velocity everyone else is claiming. I've had 3 guns now, 2 Rem 700 w/24" barrel and now I have a T/C Contender w/23" barrel. The 2 Rem's were about 200 fps slower than what I expected and my contender seems the same. I loaded 28.2 grains of H4895 for a 35 grain Berger and chronographed 3687 fps instead of 3900 claimed by the book and several other sources on the net. I've tried about 5 different powders and bullets and they all come out about the same. So unless the velocity has been chronographed in the above figures, I wouldn't get too excited just yet.

The factory Hornady loads did get close to their claimed velocity out of the Remington but the bullets left alot to be desired.

[ April 12, 2007, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 12, 2007, 08:52 AM:
 
Tom64,

That is very surprising to me.I have two .204 Rugers,one is the 23" TC contender you mention,and a Ruger M77 24" barrel and I have Chronoed both with the 35 bergers that are loaded with 28 grains of H4895 and they were running between 3800-3850.As far as the 45 grain SP factory Hornady bullets they to are close to factory claims and group surprisingly well.I haven't reloaded the 45's yet but will probably work up a load this summer.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 12, 2007, 09:45 AM:
 
TOM64,
Do you know how close the ogive of your chosen bullet is to the lands in your barrel? If the bullet is jumping a little bit before engaging the lands, you could be losing pressure and therefore obtaining less velocity.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on April 12, 2007, 10:00 AM:
 
Randy R - a guy in Vernon TX I know hunts alot of night contest.

He bought a 243WSSM form Dtech.
http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/WSSM%20page.htm
Push two pins and use your existing AR lower.
He said animals shot at night with the 243WSSM
require no tracking. Not fur friendly.

I am going to order a 204 upper for mine.
Good luck with your choice.
Kelly
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 12, 2007, 10:23 AM:
 
Guy's I have struggled with the results I got from day one, with the factory barrels on the Remingtons it was impossible to reach the lands with the restraints of the magazine box. I haven't even bothered to check it on the T/C, my OAL is 2.275, longer than the listed depth in my books. I have thought that seating it deeper might bring pressures up a bit but 200fps?

My other thoughts has been towards primers, I have been using Fed 205Match primers because I have noticed better accuracy, this also produced a velocity drop in my .223 load when I switched from WSR primers. On the .223 load I first thought a different lot of powder was the culprit but now I don't know.

I think I'll try seating deeper and going back to WSR primers and see if I get any change. I just hate giving this 204 load up as it seems to be very consistant which equals very accurate. I'm no great target shooter and called the low shot as I pulled the trigger on my heartbeat, trying to get the last shot off as the wind was picking back up again.

The chronograph was sent in this past summer for some work and was verified to be accurate as well.

I'll keep ya'll posted.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 12, 2007, 12:25 PM:
 
Tom, I'm not sure what you mean by seating deeper? That gets a little complicated in that yes, you can increase the pressures, but you also decrease the case volume. So, if you create a bullet jump as with most Weatherby cartridges and the like, you can get impressive velocities and inaccuracy with premature throat erosion.

Now, if you meant seating your bullets further out, engaging the lands, that will up preasure all by itself, but it may greatly improve accuracy?

After all is said and done, some barrels will not achieve published velocities, no matter what.

I do think it is a waste of time to arbitrarily change primers after working up a load. You have to start over when you change a component and it may require (also) changing your powder for a more suitable burning rate compatable with your primer? Otherwise, you just dumped some vinegar into your champagne; trying to "improve" the taste. Personal opinion.

Good hunting. LB

[ April 12, 2007, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 12, 2007, 04:11 PM:
 
Try useing a slower burning powdwer to increase youre vel.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 12, 2007, 04:15 PM:
 
Ok guys help me out here, if I seat the bullet deeper into the case wouldn't that decrease room for powder and increase pressure, increasing velocity?

Yet while seating a bullet out towards the lands, creates more room for powder, decreasing pressure unless you do touch the lands that would increase pressure.

Actualy I beleive the further out you seat a bullet, you open up the possibility of being able to add more powder, keeping pressure acceptable yet maybe increasing velocity(?) Is my thinking flawed?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 12, 2007, 04:20 PM:
 
TA, I'm going by several reports from 204 shooters that use this load and get higher velocity.

Wondering what I'm doing different with 3 different guns and actually 5 different loads yet remember the factory loads produced close to advertised velocity ruling out the barrel not being capable.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 12, 2007, 04:24 PM:
 
Tom,

I've no experiance with the .204, but my 17 Rems have all loved Varget powder and Remington 7.5 primers, have you tried them?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 12, 2007, 04:35 PM:
 
Tom: Are you saying that youre gun will shoot a factory load at the vel. listed for a factory load?
If so, then compare there O.A.L. with youres, if this is also the same or close then next question. Are you useing the same bullet weight as factory load? Could you give me and example of the load you are useing? Thanks
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 12, 2007, 04:52 PM:
 
Tom you are thinking correctly. Seat the bullets as far as you want to engage the rifling, or limit the overall length to fit in your magazine guns. But choose a powder that allows you to fill the case without blowing primers and then, yes, the small extra capacity should allow slightly higher pressure and commensurate velocity. You threw me off talking about "seating deeper".

I don't know what powder is best for a 204 handloaded, but somebody here does. You need to choose a fine line between performance parameters; accuracy and velocity. The best accuracy may be at slightly lower velocity than MAX. Choosing the best powder for your particular rifle using your selected bullet is not easy. If all you get is fine accuracy, and you cannot get the velocity you were hoping for, take it and live with it. Or, choose a lighter or heavier bullet to mimic the performance you would like to see.

But, the evidence seems to be that you have not picked the right combination of components, if factories beat your handloads?

Good luck, LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 12, 2007, 08:50 PM:
 
First, TA the load I'm using now is 28.2 grains of H4895 under a 35 grain Berger hollow point with a Fed 205Match primer. This load is listed at 3900 fps and Chad has chronographed it doing 3800-3850 fps out of the same 23" barrel, very acceptable. And while I have not shot any factory ammo out of this contender my first Remington did get real close to the listed velocity with factory ammo then every handload I tried ran about 200 fps slower. If the factory Hornady ammo had a good bullet, I'd use it but I had problems on coyotes with both the 32 and 40 gr. bullets.

Tim Behle, I have tried Varget but not Rem 7.5 primers, I hear they have a pretty hard cup and are probably what I need to be using when working on max loads.

Leonard, if my thinking is correct, I should be able to seat a few bullets a little deeper to the listed OAL, if velocity comes up with no other changes then problem found and I can move on accordingly.

One other thing is all of the info I've read says it's very hard if not impossible to beat the factory velocity of 4200 fps w/32gr and 3900 w/40 gr bullets without running into pressure problems so while working with a contender I'm not going to try to beat the velocity but I would like to get a little closer to what everyone else seems to be getting.

I guess what I'm asking is if the listed OAL for a specified load is 2.240" and I load the exact load but seat to 2.275" is that going to make a 170fps difference? I can't see it but I will find out.

ps. Sorry to hi-jack a thread again but I remembered it's encouraged here!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 12, 2007, 09:48 PM:
 
No, you won't get higher velocity just by seating the bullet further out. But that does allow you to add ? a half grain more powder, maybe, and that combined with the bullet chambering within ten thousanths of the lands, that should get you a little more velocity. Don't expect miracles.

I think the answer is to find a powder that completely fills the case. Varget might be a good choice? That's what I use in my 223Ackley and 28 grains completely fills the case, which is the same case as the 204, except the shoulder is blown out in fireforming.

But, don't go by my recommendation, find a load in the book, hopefully you get at least a 95% fill on the case and gives the highest velocity. Then back off and work up....you know the drill.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 12, 2007, 10:20 PM:
 
Tom: If you are useing a T/C contender you will not be able to reach the same load or vel as compared to a bolt action. The T/C will lock up on you when you reach max or go over a bit, they can't handle the pressure cause of the break open action design.
Second youre barrel is 23" where most tested are 24", that will make a difference in vel.

Here are some loads i got from IMR and Hodgdon.
35 gr. berger
imr-4895/28.3 c MAX load. Vel. 3864

H-4895/28.2c MAX load. vel. 3910

H-335/27.5 MAX load vel. 3915

BL-C/30.7 MAX load vel. 3937

Where you live compared to others well give you a different max. load, it has to do with Alt. B/press. and temp. I use two chrono-graphs when testing loads and neither one seems to agree.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 13, 2007, 05:49 AM:
 
"No, you won't get higher velocity just by seating the bullet further out."
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Maybe not every time. While working up a load for my .257 Ackley, I experienced a velocity gain. I will check my record book and post the exact velocity gain. I experienced the velocity increase when I seated the bullet out a little closer to the lands.
Edit: This is nice thing about keeping records. Closer inspection shows that I experienced slight velocity gain with a lot less deviation in speed.


[ April 13, 2007, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 13, 2007, 07:27 AM:
 

 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 13, 2007, 08:03 AM:
 
Tom64,
This is from my T.C 23" barrel,average was 3825 Fps.I am at a loss why you are having trouble getting more Velocity out of your .204's,I think my M77 will be even better after I work on the trigger a bit.Oh, and I did change primers because I was seeing pressure signs with the Federals,so i went to Remington 7 1/2 's like Tim Mentioned, pressure problems disappeared,I read it has something to do with cup thickness of the primers.FWIW Good Hunting Chad


[ April 13, 2007, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on April 13, 2007, 05:55 PM:
 
Has anyone considered the effect of different twist rates??????Two exact same loads fired down like barrels but of different rates of twist are going to have different velocities.I never expect my loads to be identical to the same load in a manual.The number of rounds down a barrel can affect velocity. The temperature of the round can affect velocity.Just a lot of variables to consider that will cause results to vary. thanks
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 13, 2007, 06:03 PM:
 
6mm284: "Has anyone considered the effect of different twist rates??????Two exact same loads fired down like barrels but of different rates of twist are going to have different velocities."
------------------------------
Good point 6mm284. All else being equal, a barrel with faster twist rate will usually yield higher velocity. It is a thing called friction.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2007, 06:32 PM:
 
I have not tested barrel twist for diff. vel but i have done some tests on primers. When you get blown primers its the cartridge telling you it is at max. load, by changeing to a different primer is going to lower the pressure abit so you could get by with the max. load you are useing. Take a look at my test and hopefuly you can see what i'm talking about..

This is the results of a test i did with my 22-250 ackley. All loads where tested on the same day, the only difference in load is the changeing of primers...

22-250 ackley 52 gr. sierra, N-540/39.6, five shot string.

Win.9wlr) avr. vel 3920 .54 variance
Rem 9 1/2 3900 .82 var.
CCI, BR-2 4060 .27 var
Fed. 210-match 4100 .36

Best group was with fed.210-m

Next test was with a 17 rem. with 1-9" useing a 30 gr. berger. I did not test vel.spread this time, i new the vel was around 3850 and i was looking for primer that gave most accurate load.

Fed.205 with a group of .681
CCI-450 .911
Rem. 6 1/2 .531
Rem.7 1/2 .750
I settled on useing the fed. 205 match primer, it produced more consistant groups compared to the rem 6 1/2
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 13, 2007, 07:09 PM:
 
"I have not tested barrel twist for diff. vel but i have done some tests on primers. When you get blown primers its the cartridge telling you it is at max. load, by changeing to a different primer is going to lower the pressure abit so you could get by with the max. load you are useing. Take a look at my test and hopefuly you can see what i'm talking about.."
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The problem is that by switching primers, you may get a dangerous pressure spike. Another problem with this practice is that some primers have thicker skins while still producing same or more pressure. Blown primers are a danger sign. The idea is to lower the pressure and eliminate the danger. Masking the danger by using thicker primer is not a wise practice.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 13, 2007, 08:15 PM:
 
Guys beleive me, I do appreciate all the input.

As for different twist rates, I tested several barrels in .223 with 1/7, 1/9, and 1/12 twist in lengths of 20", 16" and 14.5" with little difference between twist rates. I've posted this before elsewhere but since I refer to this site as "the educational channel" I'll do it again, someone might get some use out of it.

These were all Colt AR-15's shot on the same day with the same lot of XM-193 55 grain ammo just for comparison sake.
I did shoot another 14.5" barrel, a LW profile but was unsure of the twist so I threw out the results of that one.

14.5" 1/7 = 3068 fps (new M4)
16" 1/7 = 3169 fps
16" 1/9 = 3147 fps
16" 1/12 = 3099 fps(SP1 many rounds fired)
20" 1/7 = 3275 fps (new A2)
20" 1/12 = 3279 fps (new LW)

Things I got out of the test were:
1. 20-16=110fps difference, 16-14.5=100fps difference, the point of diminishing returns.
2. Twist rate makes less difference than barrel quality.
3. XM193 ammo sucks!

I did use Federal 69 grain match ammo as well but I lost the results, they showed no real difference though besides velocity being slower.

[ April 13, 2007, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2007, 08:34 PM:
 
Rich: what i was getting at is by useing a different primer you can reduce the amout of pressure the load is produceing.
Take for example from load in above post, the load useing the win. primer produced less vel, and thus less pressure, The fed. 210 produced higher vel, and higher pressure compared to other brands.
Thats why if you are at max. load and you want to try a different primer you need to reguce the load and work up. In Toms case he wants more vel, this canbe obtained by trying a different primer.
Another thing a change of primers can do is tighten up a group, for example you have 3 holes touching and two holes are off a bit (flyers). By changeing primers youre average group won't be any smaller, but the flyers will disappear, makeing the group more rounded...
 

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