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Author
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Topic: How rare is rare?
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted July 10, 2007 08:55 PM
This past Saturday, while on a road trip for a 4th of July BBQ, I got away for a few stands. Hunting from my Volvo sedan and carrying minimum gear, I wasn't prepared to shoot much or skin anything. Hunting with an O/U shotgun, on the fifth stand, I called a triple and managed to drop a quick double, a standard coyote and its apparent litter mate, a jet-black coydog. The third coyote fled. After a quick round of pictures, I made another stand a mile away and called another triple, two more standard coyotes and another jet-black beastie running with the pack. But this time, I didn't get a good shot.
The locals, a few of whom stopped by on their ATV's to view the kill told me that this pack had been raiding the nearby trailer park, snatching poodle and kitty snacks on a regular basis, and had bedeviled the local rancher to the tune of some 10 calves this spring.
On the way home, a few hours north of the hunt, I stopped in to see Higgins for a few minutes and showed him the pics.
I only got home last night, but I made a few calls today, and it seems even some of the more wizened and experienced veterans in my phone book have only heard of these things. No one could even remember a rumor of one being taken in modern memory other than a few darker versions of standard coyotes being shot in Texas.
I just wondered if anyone else has seen or shot animals like this? Or heard of anyone taking a wild coydog? Or is this a unique experience destined for tales of the campfire?
[ July 13, 2007, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 10, 2007 09:16 PM
Nah, I believe you. A few years ago, I wouldn't but I have since killed a couple coydogs and seen a couple more black ones that I didn't kill, but got a good look at as they ran past. It always helps if you have done it yourself. Otherwise, there is always doubt.
But, based on my experience and chit chat with others, it's rare, especially out here. You hear more of it back east.
Good hunting. LB
edit: re$ is a banned word
[ July 10, 2007, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted July 10, 2007 10:55 PM
My vote would be for extremely rare - especially for that part of the country.
All of the pic's that I've seen of darker coyotes come from Texas and farther east.
I've personally never seen what I could swear was a coydog, though I don't shoot a fraction of the numbers that you and others do. Hear people talk about them all the time. not saying they don't exist, just not that common, even in the midwest.
I have shot two extremely dark (nearly black) coyotes east of the Mississippi in the last 5 or 6 years, but I would bet a paycheck (mine, if I had one.....) that they were 100% coyote. Both were shot late winter and were about 2/3 normal size. One shot right in front of a normal sized coyote for a handy comparison. Just the opposite of the proportions depicted in your pic.
Both female. One obviously in heat when shot, noteworthy only in that for as odd as she looked her plumbing appeared to be working....
I'd say you've got something pretty rare.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted July 11, 2007 03:55 AM
Last year I hunted on the Nvajo *** and never seen so many semi wild dogs in my life. They were everywhere and came on many stands. But coyotes also came (not together). But out of the coyotes we shot, they were just coyotes. I don't have any reason not to believe they would cross, but have never seen a coyote that I thought was crossed. What I am getting at is that I have no clue or proof either way. I did shoot a coyote yesterday that had both ears froze off. That was a strange sight.
Off to catch a plane!
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 11, 2007 04:49 AM
I've killed two critters that I am sure were hybrids. One was coyote sized and had the hair patterns of a coyotes, but the colorations and markings of a husky. The other was a spawn of Satan that was mostly white, had the tail and hair patterns of a coyote, and looked all the world to be a coyote until you weighed him - 82#. I still regret not skinning that thing and keeping the hide. Two years ago, on ground we aren't allowed to hunt on, I saw a black coyote about fifty yards off the road. It stood and loped into a nearby ravine as we watched. Jet black save for a white spot beneath its throat. We tried to call it this past season but saw neither hide nor hair.
Was on the Navajo Re$ beneath 4 corners 5 years ago and yes, there are dogs everywhere. Surprised that they don't cross up with coyotes as often or more so than they do here in farm country.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 11, 2007 08:49 AM
Yeah Cal. On that same World Hunt, we were hunting the Navajo, but the AZ side. I think we called in 23 sheep(?) dogs? Man, they can bust up a stand. And, that was news to me, years ago they weren't such a problem.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 12:34 PM
Gary, in all of the time I have spent calling in this state, of all the animals I have called in, I have never seen a hybrid coyote in the wild.
Cal, Leonard, the Navajo rez has two fulltime predator control specialists. I talked to one of them last Dec. and he told me that they rarely kill a coyote. He said they had killed 1400 feral dogs that year alone.
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted July 11, 2007 01:48 PM
Rich, were those 1400 taken mostly by trapping, or did he not provide details?
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 03:37 PM
Tom, he shot them on sight.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted July 11, 2007 03:46 PM
Im of the same experience as Rich, although Im certain I haven't called or seen, half the number of coyotes Rich has. Ive lived in rural Arizona my entire life,and Ive never laid eyes on what would be called a hybrid or "coydog". Ive seen and called many domestic dogs while afield, whether or not they were true "feral" dogs, who knows, many were a long ways from any ranch house or residence, but that means nothing, dogs can travel a long ways on their passes when in breeding mode and they get to running.
Ive never witnessed anything but distain between dogs and coyotes. The dogs generally want to run off or kill the coyotes,and the coyotes want to pester the dogs, then run off. Thats what Ive seen played out in rural southern Arizona for over 40 years,and have yet to see a coydog.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 11, 2007 04:37 PM
Vic, I have said exactly the same thing until about five years ago. Then, you see something new.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 06:01 PM
I'm with Vic, except the numbers called in. I'm working hard to catch up to him.
I've seen two coydogs in pens in the Phoenix area over the years. My neighbor, a few years ago had one.
The point I was making to Gary is that all of the time I've spent and all of the different animals I've seen, I've never encountered a coydog in the wild.
But Gary hunts three times in the state and calls in two. I'm trying to get him to pop for lottery numbers.
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted July 11, 2007 06:16 PM
I could have discounted the incident as a fluke and not thought much of it if they hadn't all come in together with the coydog in the middle. They were after the bunny noise and not paying much attention to each other. They were obviously hunting together. And then the second triple as an exclamation point. Fraternal sextuplets makes sense biologically.
I'm contemplating a return Rich for another go at this pack. They had well defined geographical boundaries and good sources of food and water - so there's no good reason for them to move other than a change in pack dynamic when I removed these two.
Gotta say that black wasn't the best camo in daylight - you sure can see them well.
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 06:35 PM
quote:
I'm contemplating a return Rich for another go at this pack.
Gary, I'll drop what I'm doing and take the camera.
They had well defined geographical boundaries and good sources of food and water - so there's no good reason for them to move other than a change in pack dynamic when I removed these two.
The vacuum created by the removal of those two will suck a couple more in almost immediately in that area.
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted July 11, 2007 07:31 PM
Georgia is a good area to see these crosses, as you have plenty of feral dogs intermixing with coyotes. Odd's are the more dogs you have on the loose the more apt to see these cross strains.
Go North in areas of hard winters and mixed with coyote breeding season, you have little in the way of coy dogs, as unless really feral and good at catching prey, alot of those let loose pooches can't make the winter or ranchers have little use for free roaming dogs of unknown origin and they get shot on site.
Slim Pederson catches a few each year in traps down south.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted July 11, 2007 08:09 PM
.
[ July 13, 2007, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted July 13, 2007 07:42 AM
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Dusty Hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1031
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posted July 13, 2007 08:12 AM
Last year, I was scouting in the Wickenburg,
AZ area and stopped by a shop in Yarnell. I was looking at the shop owner's dog and thinking it doesn't look quite right - that tail doesn't belong on that dog. I started talking to the shop owner and she had obtained the dog from the Navajo *********** . They thought it was part coyote. If any of you guys are in that area, let me know, and I'll give you more details on where to see this dog.
[ July 15, 2007, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Dusty Hunter ]
Posts: 346 | From: AZ | Registered: Dec 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 13, 2007 08:17 AM
There's a thousand words for you.
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted July 13, 2007 11:32 AM
There are differences between domestic dog paws and coyotes right? Did you happen to notice if blacky had coyote feet?
Edit: are there any difference between coyote and domestic dog teeth?
I echo what Rich said, a pic is worth a thousand words, and that last one says alot.
later,
scruffy
[ July 13, 2007, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 13, 2007 11:51 AM
Well, to me, that (edit:black one)doesn't have quite the coyote face. So, I guess it is not just a melanistic coyote, prob. has some feral dog in it?
Good hunting. LB
[ July 13, 2007, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted July 13, 2007 04:54 PM
First I like to point out I am not no expert .
but here is what I have seen and what my feeling are about coy dogs.
This just may be a eastern thing or maybe just a population thing.
We don't have many coyote per square mile here in north eastern PA so I think that young males that are out looking to move into a new area will look into finding a mate and start to find it hard in locating one, and because are coyote are scarce and are domestic dogs are plentiful in most areas, it wouldn't be fare fetched to think a hard up coyote would mate with a strong female domestic bitch ,, I would think that the black coy dog in the photo is a pup of a domestic dog from a first litter. I also think that the more the family tree grows the more they will start to get the coloration of a coyote. I Believe they can breed the domestic right out of them in time,,and leaving nothing but just a couple traits like size and eye color,
now what I have seen with my eyes is.
for sometime I was seeing a large mixed dog running the woods in a area I hunt but it was always alone.
one day I was having a cold one and a bowl of chilly in a gin joint in the area and a guy seated beside me told me that he seen a dead female coyote along a creek.
so next day I went and found it and it looked to me that it died in a fight, or from wounds it got in a fight.
lots of bite marks in the back legs and the skin under the ears..
2 week later the large dog I seen running alone was killed by a deer hunter why running with 2 coyotes.
so what I am getting at is I think under some circumstances anything possible ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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