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Author Topic: Pelt damage
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 05:49 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Im looking for a little input here.
What amount of damage to coyote would make a (person that normally skins) leave em lay
would a hole the size of say a fifty cent piece or a baseball , loss of a leg, just what damage would constitute to much sewing or render the pelt worthless for sale.any thoughts or info. you might have would be helpful.
Thanks PM

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 06:12 PM      Profile for Norm   Email Norm         Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, it is a personal thing....

I have heard buyers say that they are most interested in the back of the coyote more than the belly / legs... so I have skinned a few that have pretty big holes in the belly.. and not sewed them up.. now I do sew baseball size holes in the back / side...

Given the low prices of the coyotes in AZ, the amount of work one puts into it a choice... now if you are dealing with coyotes from your camp... a bit more effort may be considered as they will bring a few more peso's and the bobcats for certain need special attention...

look at this way... you can practice sewing on the coyote pelts in prep for the next filming of MASH.

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Carpe Diem

Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 06:15 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
There are a lot of reasons besides terminal damage, but the first thing is that some people just don't pull fur, even on prime animals.

But, your question states that you are asking about someone that is inclined to case an animal, but decides the hide is too blown up. Might be different for everyone? I saw Danny skin a gray fox that probably didn't deserve it, but that's his business.

if you mess up the head where it is difficult to put on a stretcher, that's a good reason. If you (virtually) blow one in half by hitting the spine, that's another case of more trouble than it's worth.

As far as I'm concerned, softball size exits are still worth recovering; all things being equal. But, if it's a small animal, and it has set and froze on ya, well, again, might not be worth the trouble?

Everybody has to answer the question for their own satisfaction. Some people will pick up a nickle but not six pennies. Everybody will have a different attitude, and that's when they start reconsidering bullets, and calibers. And, you know where that leads?

Yep, cripples!
(Forgive me, Lord. I couldn't help myself!)

Good hunting. LB

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 06:55 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Damage that would lead to leaving one lay would be; Sun singe, rubbing, or mange. Other than that, I skin. Is it worth the time in today's fur market?.....Nope. The payoff, other than the hero pictures, is that every time I deal with fur, I get a little better and a little faster at it. Sewing up a $15 coyote is no big deal. Sewing up a $300 bobcat is another thing. Better that I learnt how on the coyotes. Eventually, the fur market will come back. When it does, a softball sized hole will just be an inconvenience to be dealt with.

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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.

Posts: 7584 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 07:07 PM      Profile for Norm   Email Norm         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Leonard.. shoot them with a 17 or 19 and you will have less sewing to do [Big Grin]

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Carpe Diem

Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 07:09 PM      Profile for furhvstr   Email furhvstr         Edit/Delete Post 
You said "worthless for sale". A fur has to be pretty bad to be worthless to a buyer with regard to bullet holes specifically.
To some the coyote and any other furbearer is a resource not to be wasted and to others the coyote is is just a pest. To me it's all about the dollars and cents. A little embarrassed to say it but appearently 30 dollars is my price. In seasons past I always let grey fox go but last and this year they brought a 30 dollar avg so now their gas money. If coyotes got back to 40-50 that would make them worth it. So for now I only hunt coyotes around rural areas where I figure I am doing people a favor.
Sewing pelts for all these years is how my rifle cartridges kept getting smaller and smaller and my techniques developed to get the animals closer as in shotgun close.
You can always sell your damaged goods as "damaged goods". Don't sew the bad holes. Just put them up and sell them like they are. You won't get those big sew jobs past the grader anyways.

Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 07:10 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Now, there's a thought! Dang, Norm. You may be on to something?

Good hunting. LB

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 07:16 PM      Profile for Cdog911   Author's Homepage   Email Cdog911         Edit/Delete Post 
Depends on the market and the extent of damage. A furbuyer will always be buying for whatever part of your fur has the most damage. That way he can dock you the most and save himself $$$. Most coyote fur coats I've ever seen seemed to have used the sides more than the coarse guard hairs down the back. In fact, on rubbed coyotes, it's common around here to cut out the rub in the middle of the shoulders and sew it up, then stretch it and dry.

Coons? No one can stretch and dry a coon to every furbuyer's liking. Most guy sell them green, and I've even seen buyers grouse because someone actually fleshed them. Said that by fleshing them, it made them harder for him to flesh and stretch. ?!?

Foxes? Last year, a neighbor gave me a red fox that a bald eagle caught and killed, then dropped in the field across from his home as it flew over. Sounds a bit over the top? We both witnessed the whole thing. Anyway, that fox had two tears in its hide, one being almost 20 inches long and the other just shy of 13. It took a lot of sewing, but I got Humpty Dumpty back together again and the buyer gave me $20 for him.

What do I do? I've got a small pile of frozen coyotes "in the round" on my garage floor as I type, along with a half dozen coons, all whole. I'm taking them to the buyer tomorrow "as is" and he'll give me whatever he gives me.

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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.

Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 07:57 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
For me it depends on how good the fur is,is it prime, is the belly fur long and thick with no signs of mange. If the fur is a lesser grade then i just stretch them with the hole in them or sell them skinned but not stretched. At the moument the buyers want fur with good bellies, clear, thick and long hair. There is also a demand for part of the back fur, about a 6" wide strip and 12-16 long. About the only time i ever tossed one was because of mange or it was shot to many times by a big bore.
For coon the fur buyers canbe a little fussy on how you stretched them so i just sell them skinned, still get a good price and the buyer is happy..
I always skin my fur, if brought in in the whole the buyer does'nt know how long its been laying and has to take the hunters word on it and find out later that they laid too long and fur is starting to slip. Unhappy fur buyer and he will remeber you forever. The next time the hunter brings in some fur he may get a lower price cause the buyer is'nt sure of what he has laying on the floor. I have always been honest with my fur buyers and always got a good return. My buyer knows i shoot them and he gives me trapper prices on the ones that where sewed up good, and the ones shot with 17 rem also get trappers price.
If a hunter don't want to mess with the stretching at least skin them and put in freezer till ready to sell. T.A.

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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!

Posts: 5081 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 08:10 PM      Profile for R.Shaw           Edit/Delete Post 
I can't say I ever walked away from a fur buyer 100 percent satisfied. That is unless I was carrying my fur with me.

Randy

Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted November 26, 2007 11:12 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
You got that right, Randy. They ain't yer buddy!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31473 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240

Icon 1 posted November 27, 2007 03:37 AM      Profile for Norm   Email Norm         Edit/Delete Post 
They are not your buddies... but I learned growing up, that if you go back to the same buyer year over year, learn what the buyer is wanting done with the furs, you will get the best $$$ they can afford to give you...

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Carpe Diem

Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98

Icon 1 posted November 27, 2007 05:43 AM      Profile for albert   Email albert         Edit/Delete Post 
The real answer to this is how good are you at sewing? Plus what is your time worth to you?

A very good stitcher can cover up damn near anything. I know one guy that sewed two coyotes together to get one and won a fur contest with it.

Personally I think if you can sew good enough to get your coyotes to grade slightly damaged or above then it's worth the trouble.

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for what it's worth, eh!

Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459

Icon 1 posted November 27, 2007 10:00 AM      Profile for Jrbhunter   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I have to travel a couple hours to a buyer or sell at the annual auctions which are also usually 100-150 mile away.

Trappers were getting $10-$16 for some VERY nicely handled coyotes at our last auction in February. Guys who spent less time fleshing, washing and combing their furs were getting $5-10.

I pryed half a dozen frozen coyotes (Shot with a 22-250) out of my truckbed and sold them for $5 each. If you enjoy spending time in the fur shed- go for it. If you can find a motivated buyer- you'll end up with less money and more time to hunt.

I find it hard to entertain the pitiful fur market anymore. A guy pobably needs to send them off to NAFA if he wants to come out ahead!

Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73

Icon 1 posted November 27, 2007 05:22 PM      Profile for R.Shaw           Edit/Delete Post 
Furhrvst brought up a good point by making an honest statement. He said 30 dollars is the amount he wants to make before he skins a coyote. I am right there with Kokopeli, anything not rubbed or mangey gets skinned. I've sold for 3 dollars and for 120,so I guess anything in between is where I fit. Do you guys have a number?

Randy

Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted November 27, 2007 06:04 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks guys for all the input,over the last two weeks Ive left four lay and wasnt feeling right about it. Was I being prudent or lazy and wasteful wasnt quite sure thought I'd get some of the thoughts of others to help me sort it out.
In years past I've not done that, I've used whatever the resource left me. I need to at least find an outlet for froze whole dogs if I cant find time to skin em. Its certainly not about the dollars with coyote prices being what they are and if thats true then why would I find time to skin a bobcat and waste the coyote , no good reason I can think of.
Thanks again
PM

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
happy trapper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1016

Icon 1 posted November 29, 2007 10:52 PM      Profile for happy trapper           Edit/Delete Post 
Like it was said before. It dependes on how good you can sew & clean the fur up after. I have found that if you trim around the hole it usually takes the grease away so it is a lot easier to clean up after it has been sewn.
As for the size of hole it depends on where it was hit. Most holes 6 inches in diameter or smaller can be repaired sewing them length wise. Holes that run length wise does not really matter too much. As long as the fur is prime and the hide is clear & not too black it is probably worth it. Good luck with the calling & shooting.

Posts: 17 | From: margo sk. | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
CindyTraps
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1893

Icon 1 posted November 30, 2007 07:04 AM      Profile for CindyTraps   Email CindyTraps         Edit/Delete Post 
If the fur is good quality and you can sew you can take a dollar coyote with a hole and make it a $30.00 coyote. If the fur is good we dont let anything lay within reason.
Paul come to the hunt this year and we can help you in deciding.
To us it is not about the money but the principal.
I have a $5000.00 bedspread out of coyotes that took a little sewing.
Two years ago George took a bobcat with some damage that probably would have sold for $35.00 if left as is and sold it for $435.00 after sewing it.
If you try and sell a fur with a huge whole you are going to get a couple dollars. If you sew it you will get the best money you can. If it can be cleaned up and sewed it can be used as a quality fur in a garment and the fur buyers know it.
Also bring your fur to our sale this year! [Smile]

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Happy Trails

Posts: 113 | From: Seligman, Arizona | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33

Icon 1 posted December 01, 2007 11:12 AM      Profile for Q-Wagoner           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
To us it is not about the money but the principal.
Well said….

Don’t get me wrong I like the money but the principle is the driving force behind skinning or otherwise utilizing fur. You are going to hunt coyotes anyway so I just look at the time skinning as overtime at work. With little damage you could put up 4 coyotes an hour. Last year I averaged around 29 dollars I think for my coyotes. When I keep telling my self that I am making over 100 dollars an hour putting up coyotes I would be lying to say it is not worth it.

This pic below is what you like to see after you skin an animal. The fallowing one is not a good deal. LOL

I have a doctorate in sewing up coyotes but even so I still have to remind my self that principle, not profit is why I am doing this.

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I can honestly say that I can only remember throwing away one coyote do to fur damage and I didn’t even shoot it. A buddy gut shot one with his 6x284 shooting 87gr V-maxes at about 40 yards. The shot didn’t kill it instantly so he fallowed it up with a second that caught the coyote through the neck and across the back. It was bad.

When a coyote receives bullet damage you have to remember that the fur is all or very very near all still there. The damage is mostly caused by a rupturing affect. Some times it is nice and strait or round. But sometimes if you hit bone or get a raking shot you will have a starburst to try and lay back together.

If done right a fur buyer is not going to find much of any damage from a sew job no matter what size there are a lot of tricks to the trade but quantity really helps also. When you bring in 100 to 150 coyotes at a time they are not going to spend much time at the grading table. Typically they will have a table with a florescent light a few feet directly above it. They will lay the coyote hide on the table hold the head down with one hand, grab the base of the tale with the other hand and give it a pop or two to fluff up the fur. If all the fur comes up strait they flip it over pop it again to look at the belly and then it gets thrown into a pile. If a spot comes up on the fur when they pop it that is matted down or kinked they will run there fingers over the spot and maybe comb it out a bit but very rarely do they actually look up into cased coyote.

The main thing to watch out for is bullet burn. It doesn’t happen much but sometimes it does on some raking shots. Bullet burn is when the bullet cuts fur before it enters the animal or if it is at enough of an angle the bullet will hit the animal and when the bullet comes apart the fragments shave off strips of fur. You will identify these areas when skinning so it is best to deal with them right then and their. Bullet burns are always strait so you just simply cut out the strip that is damaged and it will be an easy sew job.

Hope this helps.

Good hunting.

Q,

Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted December 18, 2007 09:20 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
Good post Q. T.A.

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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!

Posts: 5081 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted December 19, 2007 06:30 AM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Q
Its about principal for me as well thats why I was feeling guilty for lettin some lay they were bad and smelly but a little work could have salvaged them.I dont mind the skinnig but my hands give me a lot of trouble I can manage maybe two an hour three if all goes well. its bitch getting old.
PM

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted December 19, 2007 10:26 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
[Razz]

[ March 28, 2010, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!

Posts: 5081 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged


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