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Author
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Topic: Decoys
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Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
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posted February 05, 2008 06:00 PM
Last weekend I watched a hunter(on TV) using a Deer decoy while hunting deer from a tree stand, using a decoy. I also saw a show about sitting ina stand for Bear, using a decoy.
These guys drove the ATV's right thru the stand site, spread scent everywhere ( human scent and not on purpose) and gas.
Now, my question, what do you think about decoys? It seems to me a great way to spread human scent everywhere. Besides the remote caller, now more scent, what is the deal??? I dont see how it will help. UNLESS, you are doing something to get rid of the smell.
What do Ya'll think?
Thanks
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted February 05, 2008 07:05 PM
I have only had experience with coyote hunting using decoys. using small decoys like the jack in the box ect. on stands where the coyotes come in sllowly they seem to hold thier focus and allow me more movement. on chargers they get to the decoy get a whiff and are gone like a rocket,never giving me a shot I have no desire to carry a coyote sized decoy into the stand. Its my opinion that I carry too much crap into the field as it is. Clearly the hunters you saw on the show would have little success with coyotes.I dont know of any way you could get rid of scent with the exception of time.
PM
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted February 05, 2008 09:45 PM
Carl,
The same thing could be said, that placing a remote speaker could "just spread scent around".
But it's generally accepted that the benefits outweigh the negatives, by doing so you can increase your odds.
You don't necessarily have to "foul up" another area for the decoy, placing the decoy at the source of the sound validates what brought the predator to the point where he could see that location (as well as most predators can see).
And it doesn't smell the place up any more than it did to get the sound coming from there.
The sense of smell usually exceeds the range of vision, so to me a decoy is to hold the attention of an animal approaching from anywhere (and everywhere) but downwind.
And like the remote speaker, I think the benefits in such situations are generally accepted outweigh the negatives.
After I saw the way the coyote I called on my trip was so engrossed with the obviously mechanical magpie decoy, I was fully convinced of the positives of having a decoy with my (wired) remote speaker (ESPECIALLY in light of the short distance I can separate myself from it).
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted February 06, 2008 06:53 AM
Take this for what it's worth.....
I've used rabbit dekes, motorized rabbit dekes, and a bouncing hairball with a tail on a stick. I've had some luck with them;....all bad. Too many coyotes that saw the deke & flared off. Major WTF??? These were coyotes that I felt that I should have been getting good shots at. For me, dekes for coyotes are at best not worth the trouble and at worst, counter productive.
For cats, on the other hand,.....I don't know.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7585 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 06, 2008 09:46 AM
I agree with you, koko. I have had very limited results with decoys over the years....it seems like such a great idea! And, with a cat, well, it's hard to underestimate their value. But, many times, a coyote eagarly coming in to a distress sound will get all spooky when they see certain decoys. It probably has to do with their status in the territory?
On the other hand, I have had coyotes that come in, expecting to see something in distress, and when they don't see anything, they get suspicious as hell. Especially if you locate your decoy out in the open with a 360º view.
Anyway, for me, a decoy is more trouble than it is worth, on coyotes.
But, in trying to figure out exactly what is being asked by the original question.....
Deer hunters in a stand have a good reason to worry about their scent since they sit in a tree for hours with drifting wind currents, etc. On the other hand when calling predators, it's only for 15-20 minutes, so you don't have as much time to stink up the area, and you aren't committed to the spot, like on a deer stand.
Whatever. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31485 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 06, 2008 03:32 PM
I really wish I could offer some enlightening commentary on this subject, but it just so happens I'm part of a select group of people "beta testing" a new decoy from Flambeau that just recently hit the market. The article introducing these deeks is this very day being reviewed by key players and is slated to be published very soon. Going into this project, I was doubtful as well. I gotta admit it. But, first hand experience has made me question my earlier position. With that, I can only submit two pics, both of which are kinda like some being considered for photo support on the article, but which didn't make the cut...
First, I named this one "Leroy" and this coyote died because of him.
Second, all seven of these coyotes died as a direct result of this decoy - affectionately named "Calvin" - and took first place at the NE Kansas Coyote Calling Challenge.
No one else was able to get coyotes to respond to distress. And howling was hardly what we would call "knocking them dead". Everyone of these coyotes was killed coming to jackrabbit distress, after they checked things out from upwards of 300 yards, often from cover, and locked onto the decoy, approaching close enough that each and every one was killed with a shotgun within 40 yards of these two guys. Todd admitted up front that he considered carrying a decoy in on every set to be "more of a hassle than what it was worth". By the middle of the first day, "Calvin" had earned a place up front in the truck cab between stands (literally ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) and these guys' first comments to me when I asked how the decoy did were "Best money I ever spent" and "I was dead wrong!"
In short, FWIW.
[ February 06, 2008, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 06, 2008 03:58 PM
GIVE ME A BREAK, LANCE!
That's a lot like we need studio quality sound to call coyotes, in spite of hundreds of thousands of coyotes that have been killed responding to a crummy Johnny Stewart 512.
Have I sucessfull called coyotes without a dek? Well, yeah. Have I seen coyotes check up and sometimes leave the area after looking at my dek? Well, yeah. How many times have I sat there and said; GEE! I WOULD NEVER HAVE KILLED THAT COYOTE IF I DIDN'T HAVE A DEK!
Not many.
But, this is KANSAS, so maybe?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31485 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted February 06, 2008 05:42 PM
For someone to say that they would not have killed a coyote without the decoy is sometimes tough to swallow, because how do we really know. It's not like you can call a coyote up with the decoy and then turn around and do the same stand without a decoy to see if you get the same exact results.
BUT we do no that truck loads of coyotes are killed every year without the use of a decoy, or Ecaller for that matter, but yet there are those that truely beleive that they wouldn't kill as many coyotes without one or the other! the Ecaller, maybe, but a decoy, I'm not sold yet!
I will say that it is fun to use a decoy at times, only to see what kind of reactions, or lack of reactions, the coyotes have to it.
Before long, someone will have to market a little red wagon for coyote callers to pull with them, just to get all the crap from the truck to the stand, of course the wagon will have to be camo dipped! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 06, 2008 06:15 PM
Oh, I agree, Leonard. Lots of new fangled gadgets to be buying and using these days, if that's what you want. Kinda makes you wonder how any of us ever got the job done up to now with just one call around our neck. But thanks for sharing your thoughts.
As I said, I can't really get too much into the material I used in the article, but the dead coyote you see me by is dead because of the decoy. Not so much because the decoy called him in, or even assisted in bringing him in. Actually, I did that, but when he got there, he came in at a very bad angle for me and I had to turn almost 180-degrees just to get to where I could shoot. He was twenty yards behind me and downwind when he saw the deek and stood there while I turned completely around right in front of him, and in plain view. Like I said, he didn't call the coyote in, but the coyote was sure so interested in what he was doing there that he stood there and let me kill him. The first two coyotes killed in the second pic were a double that came from the side and crossed immediately downwind of Tom and Todd. Both guys said they thought for sure that those coyotes were goners. On top of that, they made an approach that put them within 150 yards of their truck and in plain view. The entire time they were calling this stand, three dog wagons were less than a mile away shooting out a ravine. Todd and Tom were sitting on the face of a pond dam in zero cover (grass < 2 inches tall), and they were both floored that these two coyotes approached, totally oblivious to their presence, hackles raised and totally focused on the decoy.
As I stated, I too am a total skeptic, but what I saw with that first coyote was pretty impressive.
"Before long, someone will have to market a little red wagon for coyote callers to pull with them..."
Yep, some days, if I really haul out the toys, I look like a friggin' refugee. LOL Most days, it's just me, the gun, the sticks and a lanyard of calls.
I see that my ranking has changed. I ain't never been nowhere near McNeal though, so can I have that changed to the Kansas sector?
[ February 06, 2008, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted February 06, 2008 08:39 PM
Uh, coyotes ARE sight "hounds".
My thoughts. If you are going to use an e-caller you might as well set some type of decoy, feather or fake rabbit, near it if you are going to go through the trouble of putting it any distance from you.
That guy that shoots the Swift says, "If they are close enough to see it they are close enough to shoot." Makes sense to me.
I still use one occasionally when I have an extra pocket. I won't use a decoy that owns a tail. Decoys with tails are just asking for trouble...
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted February 07, 2008 07:15 AM
Cdog;...Question; Could the results that you had with the 'Mounted Coyote' deke have anything to do with the ongoing breeding season or do you think that this will also work during the earlier parts of the fur season?? It looks interesting, but other than the 'more crap to carry' part, I have to wonder if that type of deke wouldn't bring in a coyote that may or may not come in anyway, but cause a cat to hang back in the brush undetected.
Smithers; Yes, coyotes are 'sight hounds'. Uncle Jay teaches us that in his excellent work 'Coyote Behavior'. It just hasn't worked that way for me.....in the areas that I hunt.....in the time of year...etc. etc. As far as Why Not, I don't know. Maybe I just had a streak of bad luck with paranoid coyotes, maybe the planets were aligned wrong, or maybe Hillary was getting lucky, causing a vast disruption in the Force.
Leonard; That part about the coyote 'expects to see something' is why I tried the dekes in the first place. I belive that it was Dennis Kirk who once said "Hide the sound", and I have to agree with him. A coyote coming into an open area knows where the sound is coming from and should be able to see what's causing the comotion unless the sound is coming from a bush or a pile of rocks etc. I've actually had a couple of different coyotes up on their hind legs trying to get the caller out of a bush. And yes, that is really neat to see!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7585 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 07, 2008 11:23 AM
If the coyotes were checked up 300-600 or more away looking things over how did they see that coyote decoy??? It's colored such that it will blend in, since it's colored the same as a coyote, and we all know how a coyote can "disappear" when it stops and blends into the background. Does the tail move around much? In the wind?
I've had coyotes walk withen feet of me and never "see" me as danger because I'm not moving. As soon as I move it's like they suddenly see me.
So how did they see a blended in motionless decoy at a quarter mile or more?
That's the part of the "calvin" story that doesn't make sense to me.
As far as the coyotes zero'd in on the deke after they get close, well, they're close, so shouldn't they be dead anyway? Other than getting them into shotgun range, is that the only benefit?
Label me a skeptic also. I've been burned by decoys more than helped. The decoys with continual battery motion seem to spook more than help, for me. And the motionless decoys don't seemed to get noticed as well, likely because they look like the real animal (for instance my fawn decoy) and blend in when motionless. My "best" decoy results have been with a turkey hen decoy that bobbles and swings in the breeze. A little motion, lifelike, big, yummy, and when skylined can be seen a long distance, otherwise it too is hard for them to see unless it's moving.
edit to add: over the last year I've ditched the decoys for the most part and put the e-caller in a bush, base of a tree, bottom of fence post, tuff of grass, anywhere a wounded or frightened animal would go to hide or get away from a predator. If the animal sound, be it from a caller or the real animal, coming from a spot like that the coyote isn't going to see anything, and if it were a reasoning creature would assume the hawk is in the tree or pole in the area. But they aren't so to condition of a wounded animal hiding under a bush is goodness to them.
Just like Kokopelli stated, it goes back to Dennis Kirk and likely long before that. It's not a new idea, or "gimmick", can't sell it, so maybe that's why it isn't popular?
Saves me carrying a decoy and walking out into the open where I can be seen. I hug the cover and try to stay out of sight and also not spread too much scent, putting the caller at most 50 yards from me.
The little foxpro xr6 used this way has been working good for me, 4 coyotes in the last 7 stands (over the last 6 weeks, too busy and lousy weather when i do have time, not getting out much...), not bad numbers for Iowa, better than I ever got using a decoy. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
later,
scruffy
[ February 07, 2008, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 07, 2008 12:20 PM
Oh Lance, I forgot to mention, you got that model 11 looking very very good. My lefty 11FL in 22-250 has also been treating me right, and I might treat her to the same stock. ![[Cool]](cool.gif) Thanks for posting the howto on painting on the other site, I might have to give that a try as well.
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted February 07, 2008 03:10 PM
Uncle Jay! He has a beard and a funny hat...
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted February 07, 2008 04:09 PM
Hey Lance, is Todd either from Wray Colorado or a Painter? LOL Silly Question, I know, I remember the face and relate it to one of two conversations I had with a guy about painting or being from CO.
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 07, 2008 04:55 PM
scruffy,
In the case of "Calvin", Todd and Tom Wilson have done like I do - put him where you can't help but see him. On a terrace ridge, in an open snowfield, or on a pond dam - any place with good elevation.
The tail on this particular decoy is poseable, and the legs detach and fold underneath the body so the decoy can assume any of three postures - standing, sitting or lying down.
Kokopelli,
Your inquiry about its effects on bobcats is one of the uniquely interesting thing about the results that have been observed is using this decoy. A guy with another magazine who, also, was provided with a model to field test, has killed two adult male 'cats which came out, saw the decoy, then approached it and stood in front of it with their backs arched and hissing at it trying to take the "rabbit" the guy had glued to its nose. I've got copies of the e-mails that were sent to the manufacturer along with pics but they belong to someone else and I'm not at liberty to post them here or anywhere else.
Like I said, I was about as much a skeptic as anyone else here. There's only so much a guy can tote to the stand. This particular deek only weighs about 2-3 pounds. But, at this time of the year, this thing is producing amazingly well. Even I am surprised.
Will it produce this well year around? Frankly, I do not know. It was only released in late November, so only time will tell. But early responses were similar to what one would expect if he were using a real decoy dog - the coyote spots the dog, looks at it for a while, then turns and vacates. Then, there's the way they respond now.
Is it ludicrous for someone to think they need this to call coyotes?
How many rifles do you own? How many do you "need" to hunt coyotes, or go plinking? Wouldn't just one do fine?
How many calls do you own? Wouldn't one open reed and one enclosed reed work fine?
My point is that you buy what you want, and someone else will buy what they want.
Guys buy a lot of stuff to augment and enhance their hunting experience. What you "need" will probably be different than what someone else is looking for. Different hunting areas dictate different approaches, techniques, and equipment needs. The response the Wilsons got in an area where dog hunters are very prevalent is in fact, very impressive. They've been calling coyotes a long time and won a number of contests. They were admittedly skeptical but don't leave the truck without ol' Calvin now.
Like howling, misting, estrus chirps, camouflage facemasks, hiding the truck and hunting where you know coyotes reside, it's out there. Take it or leave it.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 07, 2008 04:58 PM
Loco,
They're both from NE Kansas, but have been at St. Francis each of the past three years. You might know him from there.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted February 07, 2008 05:58 PM
The local fly shop is filled to the brim with simple decoys. Whole pheasant feathers, deer tails, peacock feathers, rabbit faces.
Not knocking the 3-D decoy but I much prefer to carry around a small Zoinked Rabbit. Which is, for those that wonder, a length of rabbit hide that is tanned, dyed and cut into about 20 strands and held together as one at the top by a length of un-Zoinked leather. They come in an amazing array of colors that the color-challenged coyote and fox find at the least interesting enough to slow them up by two steps as they streak past.
It would be great if you could keep us up to date on the successes and failures using your new and useful tool, Cdog. I find it interesting what will and won't fool animals.
[ February 07, 2008, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 07, 2008 06:24 PM
I have too many rifles and too many calls and the wife says i got to draw the line somewhere so i guess it wellbe decoys. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) Use them if you think you need them don't matter to me...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5083 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
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posted February 07, 2008 07:54 PM
Thanks Folks, there is a lot of good information here.
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 08, 2008 05:34 AM
quote:
scruffy,
In the case of "Calvin", Todd and Tom Wilson have done like I do - put him where you can't help but see him. On a terrace ridge, in an open snowfield, or on a pond dam - any place with good elevation.
And thinking to myself of doing this makes me nervous. Any coyotes spotted by a farmer, hunter in a truck, yahoo with a gun, is going to be shoot at. On a few stands a year on private property I have a farmer or hired hand drive through with the tractor or truck checking cows, working on fence, etc. Maybe not the farmer I'm hunting on, maybe on a neighboring farm, but they can see it, they'll shoot at it. Heck, I know some farmers that will fire at a howl, for what benefit I don't know. However two or three times I've let out a howl to hear a gun go off and a bullet zing past over head.
The deer and turkey are as thick as squirels around here, and no one cares about rabbits, so those decoys are "safe". I just wonder how long it is before we hear stories or see posts of 3d coyote decoys with holes in them or more than likely misses raining in on them.
But to each their own, like you said. I'm interested to hear how it does long term.
I really wish someone would go out and call 100 stands, using the decoy every other stand, so 50 stands with, 50 stands without. Then report back the figures. Did the decoy help? How did it help? How did it hurt? Callups, distance for the shot, demeaner of the coyote, etc.
Saying "it works" doesn't mean much to me, as I have a closet full of stuff that "works" and has aided in killing a few coyotes, and most of that same stuff has brought down my overall average.
So a picture of a coyote or a weekend of coyotes, or a story on this bobcat or that coyote, doesn't really tell me what I want to know as far as effectiveness.
Having a dozen testers put in as many stands as possible, using the decoy every other stand, maybe getting 1000 stands amoung the group, 500 with the decoy, 500 without, over an entire seasons time, and then print the results like exit polling data for a presidential primary.
List out callup %, kill %, distance coyote came in to, demeaner, % of multiples, % of fox and bobcat, number of decoys shot by farmers, etc, to get a better feel for the benefit of the decoy.
Unfortunately this type of testing never seems to happen. It either "works", meaning coyotes were killed with it, or it doesn't. Calling fewer is never advertised.
later,
scruffy
[ February 08, 2008, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 08, 2008 05:50 AM
quote:
I have too many rifles and too many calls and the wife says i got to draw the line somewhere so i guess it wellbe decoys. Use them if you think you need them don't matter to me...
Tim, that thing might be just the thing that puts those uncallable coyotes over the edge. Think about it, seriously.
Think of the gas money it would save.
(ok, that last part was a cheap shot, but the rest was sincere)
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted February 08, 2008 06:11 AM
There was a time, early-mid 90's, when we used a stuffed coyote for a decoy. It's name was Frankenyote. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) The real McCoy so to speak. Very mixed results. Maybe the tail position was wrong? Probably should be to the side in somewhat of a flagging position. Is a sitting coyote in a nonreceptive position?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 08, 2008 06:13 AM
I use a decoy quite a bit(jack rabbit). Gets a bonus coyote every once in awhile. Typical reaction is just to stop and stare. Some coyotes do flare from it, but they never go far, they always stop to stare from what they think is a safe distance. Makes for easy shooting. Can't say that it has ever cost me a coyote that I know of. But I believe it has gotten me some coyotes that I would not have without it - second half of pairs and second shot opportunities after a miss, mostly. Have had times where first shot was a miss, and the coyote still stopped to look at the rabbit one more time. Same with killing first half with first shot and second half stops to stare one last time. Have also had them directly downwind, obviously very nervous about what they were smelling, but apparently unable to just run away from that rabbit.
Works for me...
We tried a full body mount coyote for a few late season trips, about 10 years ago. Had too many run away from it, so we bagged that idea. Might have been too aggressive of a posture on the mount or something. Who knows...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 08, 2008 06:15 AM
What are the chances? Greenside was posting same time as me, and both of us talking about how our coyote decoys weren't that hot, and both of us speculating on the same possible reason.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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