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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on November 02, 2008, 03:47 PM:
 
I didn't know if anybody else seen this yet but Brent has thrown a new twist in the contest.

"Another new twist for 2009 is the 2 Pointer Coyote! It has been started in the coyote industry that coyotes that have a prodominatly white tipped tail are called 2 pointers. Why, not quite for sure, but they are out there and i have even harvested 2 this year in New Mexico.
I have been looking for a way to make our contest a little more interesting.
So for the 2009 Midwest Coyote Calling Event, both classes will be effected by 2 pointer coyotes. Any team that brings in a coyote that has a white tipped tail will count as 2 coyotes. The tail hair has to be 80% or more white colored. And not PAINTED!
That coyote will carry 2 times the credit. It will count as 2 coyotes and will double the weight count for that coyote. All coyotes that qualify will have to be inspected by me and i will have the final decision if in fact it is truely a 2 pointer.
I am sure that there will be plenty of questions about this new change, so bring your questions to the check-in meeting on Friday the 9th of January.
I look foreword to seeing you all in January! I hope your hunts are succesful during this fall season!"
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 02, 2008, 03:58 PM:
 
........and I thought that I didn't get out enough.
I can almost smell the Peroxide & Bleach from here.
Unless I'm missing something regarding skill levels required to harvest tail tipped white coyotes compared to normal tail tipped black coyotes, doesn't this change a contest into a novelity event??
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on November 02, 2008, 05:25 PM:
 
Sounds like nothin but trouble!!!!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 02, 2008, 06:34 PM:
 
An interesting concept, but if there were any changes to be made in the contest hunting arena, I would like to see contests be standardized/accredited in some way and points given for placing, so that competitors could accumulate points as they hunt different hunts around the country. That way, whoever has amassed the greatest number of points at the end of the season can be truly recognized as the best at this game. Of course, there are many different variables to consider and problems to work out, but as it is in Nascar, if you wanna call yourself the best, I guess you need to get to the track and show up on race day. There has been some discussion about this concept of accreditation in the Midwest region of the country and I think it would be interesting to see what people think of developing such a system and holding sanctioned events.

[ November 02, 2008, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on November 02, 2008, 06:44 PM:
 
In my book, a coyotes a coyote whether it be white , black, mangy, or whatever. I don't like that idea one bit. I won't be there anyway, but I think you should leave it just like the rest of the contests. I know I sure wouldn't be trying to see if the coyote had a white tip on its tail. Brent does a good job with the tournament and I say leave it the way it is.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on November 02, 2008, 06:52 PM:
 
Stupid idea!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 02, 2008, 07:30 PM:
 
Yeah, I'm afraid I don't like it, either. You already have a little dog and a big dog and that's enough.

There will be those that say, why stop there? Why not give two points for every coyote that weighs exactly 26.25 pounds?

Makes a skill event into a raffle.

Good hunting. LB

PS Brent. Hope it's not too late to change your mind? Maybe you could make it an option, somehow? For an extra $20, any white tail counts in a separate pool? Best forget it altogether, to be perfectly honest.
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on November 02, 2008, 07:57 PM:
 
I agree Leonard, make it an option for people to enter for a side pot type bet. I guess I always assumed the purpose of the event was to see who the best was at hunting coyotes not to see who was lucky enough to shoot a coyote with a white tail. If I get beat by a dang white tipped coyote I know I won't be too happy.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on November 03, 2008, 06:36 AM:
 
Wonder where the "2 pointer" phrase came from?

I doubt it would create any more potential for cheating than the "big dog / little dog" category.

My problem with it is that I don't believe a team should be given more credit for killing white tipped coyotes than those who don't. I think it would make for some pretty hard feelings for a team with 10 coyotes to get beat out by a team with 8 heavier coyotes with 2 being "white tipped". If you want to make it part of the contest, make a seperate prize for the largest and/or smallest white tipped coyote.

C-Dog,

Interesting concept on point accumulation to determine who the best is. I'm curious as to how you define "the best".

In my experience with competitive calling there is two categories to "the best". One for who is the best at finding and tying up a good area with lots of virgin eared coyotes and another for who is the best at killing the highest percentage of coyotes for the area they have.

I can remember a team in Rawlins, WY that saw 10 coyotes on public land and killed 8. Although they didn't win, they were "the best" to my way of thinking. Killing 80% of what you see is an incredible shooting percentage. Sure, I know luck is involved in shooting percentages but any team that can repeat a performance like that will end up in the top places every time.

I remember a team who won a major contest that saw over 52 coyotes but only killed 13. Are they truly "the best" under those circumstances?

If the points are racked up by the number of coyotes killed, we'll all have to pack our bags and head to SW Texas to accumulate points.

Having called in numerous contests in a number of states (ND, SD, WY, and KS), there is certainly a few names that always rise to the top but to truly find out who the best is at making the most of any situation, you'd have to draw for areas and make sure the areas are somewhat equal in coyote population to level the playing field. As it stands now, the teams who have the most coyotes will kill the most coyotes.

~SH~

[ November 03, 2008, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 03, 2008, 07:08 AM:
 
CDog; The problem that I see with the point system is that if three different hunters take first in several contests, another three different hunters take second, and the same guy takes third in all of them, the third place guy has the points to be 'best'?? We did this years ago in our archery club; it was called The Aggregate Trophy. It was basicly an attendence award.
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on November 03, 2008, 09:15 AM:
 
Calling contest....I think I've done a few of those against some pretty good competition.
Being true predator hunters we didn't limit ourselves to just coyotes, we also hunted bobcats, gray fox, badger and mt lions. Coyotes usually won the contest though.
Those who won came back with the most animals, it was that simple. No money involved, trophies or maybe a belt buckle and bragging rights.
I have yet to see any other hunts compare when it comes to numbers of animals, so does that mean the CSVCA hunters are the best ever? Yep lol.
 

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Posted by Relentless (Member # 2140) on November 03, 2008, 11:20 AM:
 
“2 pointer coyote.” Does anyone have a picture of a coyote that would qualify?
I’m a little sketchy on the “predominantly white tipped tail”. Is that, like more than 50% white?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2008, 11:45 AM:
 
Oh yeah, Danny; strolling down memory lane again, ain't 'cha?

The only sad part, these guys would never believe it. Twelve coyotes might place tenth, you know? Did we imagine all that? There were a few times, I did halucinate, from lack of sleep.

Definitely, the good old days, though.

Good hunting. LB

edit: just a couple days ago, I saw an old blue Toyota with a black camper shell. Had to look twice but it didn't say "Coyote Coffin" on the back.

edit: you may not remember it, but we did have cash prizes, back in the early days. Decided it corrupted, nothing's changed.

[ November 03, 2008, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on November 03, 2008, 11:49 AM:
 
Relentless, see the "Light Colored Coyote" thread here in the Predator Calling forum for pictures of a few coyotes that would qualify.

Even the Okie got this one right: stupid idea. If you want to make a coyote worth 200% of another... let Roede, Huber & Cal buzz his ass with a trifecta of choppers and biplanes blaring Foxpro, Minaska and WT distress sounds on loudspeakers. Paintball him purple 12 hours before the hunt opens up- that's a 2 point coyote!
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 03, 2008, 02:37 PM:
 
New member here. I have been lurking for a long time now. This thread struck a cord so I figured I would chime in.

I agree with you guys that it is not a good idea for this to be added to the contest. This takes some element of skill away from the hunt and replaces it with a element of luck. We are not in the contests for the element of luck. We are in the little dog and big dog for the element of luck. Adding this to the main format of the hunt is not good. If a team with 8 coyotes ends up beating a team with 10 coyotes because of weight then I am sure there will be a uproar. Not to mention it puts teams that are in areas that have the "white tipped" coyotes in a advantage as I am not sure but only guessing that it is genetic. So other coyotes in that teams area will have the same traights.

If the argument for adding this "twist" is to even out the playing field and maybe give some other teams that might not place a chance to place then its definately not cool with me. My partner and I are new to the contest scene. Have only been in 6 contests in two years. We are beginners at the sport for the most part. I have been shooting coyotes for 7 years and calling hard for them for 4. We are by no means pros or even good enough to be in the predator class for this hunt. What we do have how ever is the love to call coyotes and have fun at contests. We dont live close to St. Francis and we still enter and try our hardest. Last year I lived in Colorado(Ft. Collins) and this year I live in Kansas(Ogden). We dont even know anybody or have any land out there to hunt. At least didnt until we got off our asses and started scouting and doing homework for the contests we enter.

To me this just makes the lazy guys that road hunts have that much more of a chance to edge out a team that actually tries. My partner just drove by himself from Colorado out there this last weekend scouting and locking up some land for that contest. I hate to think that two guys in a pickup can get lucky and find two dogs with white tips in a pasture together and mow them down and be placing in the sportsmans class. Just does not seem right.

I only said all this stuff because we love going to the contests and this bothers me. If you feel the same please email brent and let him know how you feel. Especially if your in the contest, plan to be, or ever have been in the contest. Thanks. Brent@predatorsniperstyx.com

Dustin
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 03, 2008, 02:43 PM:
 
Jeremy,

Are you going to be entering the contest this year??

Did you not enter last year because you won it the year before??

Dustin
 

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Posted by Relentless (Member # 2140) on November 03, 2008, 03:20 PM:
 
Sorry to keep being a pest but I checked out the light colored coyote thread and I’m still not real clear. Is this one coyote or two?
Before today I knew what it was.Sorry to keep being a pest but I checked out the light colored coyote thread and I’m still not real clear. Is this one coyote or two?
Before today I knew what it was.
 

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Posted by Relentless (Member # 2140) on November 03, 2008, 03:22 PM:
 
That was suposed to have a picture attached to it. Guess I don't quite have that part down yet.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2008, 03:27 PM:
 
I don't quite understand your confusion? The proposed rule; a coyote with a white tipped tail is worth TWO POINTS. Meaning, it is equal to two black tipped coyotes.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on November 03, 2008, 03:35 PM:
 
I don’t know. I guess to a certain degree it makes it a bit of a lottery. I kind of feel the same way about ties being broken by the weight of the coyotes taken over the guy who brings in the same number of coyotes in less time. When I enter to play with the big boys it is kind of a lottery anyway. I don’t have the time, resources, or self control to find a good population of coyotes and put them in the bank and hope they will still be there for contest day.

Numbers can be deceiving. To see 52 coyotes and kill 13 might not be so bad if the guys were hunting open country and could see for miles but only 13 were willing to come within killing range. What about the guy getting in the thick stuff with a shotgun. He might have had 52 coyotes running around him all day long but could only see 8? Too many variables.

If a team were to take third in Rawlings, St. Francis and the World is not that team better over all (at finding and killing coyotes) than the team that won the hunt in their back yard and placed around the middle of the pack at the other two events? IF there were a higher number of teams that hunted all three events a points system would recognize the most CONSISTANT hunters. Anyone can luck out and do really well in A contest or do well on their home turf. It takes something to be competitive nearly every time you compete no matter where it is held.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 03, 2008, 07:55 PM:
 
Just got a email back from Brent. He took my objection to that twist VERY constructively. He was very proffesional. He values the input and actually said thanks. He would like to hear more input good or bad about the subject. Even more reason to send him a email.

Dustin
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on November 04, 2008, 06:48 AM:
 
Bryan J: "I kind of feel the same way about ties being broken by the weight of the coyotes taken over the guy who brings in the same number of coyotes in less time."

Ties being broken by total weight of coyote as opposed to check in times stopped the road races. Teams that drove the speed limit were beat by teams that broke the speed limit. Breaking ties by weight generally gives the advantage to a team who kills more adult coyotes. I like that concept. Having seen both systems in place, I much prefer breaking ties by weight. Had some good friends of mine beat by a team that blew past them on the highway 1 mile from town. The team that broke the law won.


Byran J.: "To see 52 coyotes and kill 13 might not be so bad if the guys were hunting open country and could see for miles but only 13 were willing to come within killing range."

Most of the sage country in every direction from Rawlins is similar habitat. The variable that would bias a comparison of numbers seen vs. numbers killed was whether or not the team had access to those coyotes. If you saw them in land that you couldn't hunt, there's not much you can do about that. I understand the variables that could affect using the numbers as comparisons but 52 coyotes is a lot when most teams are seeing less than half that.

Byran J.: "What about the guy getting in the thick stuff with a shotgun. He might have had 52 coyotes running around him all day long but could only see 8?"

If he didn't see them, they would or should not have been counted as "seen".

Byran J.: "If a team were to take third in Rawlings, St. Francis and the World is not that team better over all (at finding and killing coyotes) than the team that won the hunt in their back yard and placed around the middle of the pack at the other two events?"

All other things being equal, yes. I'm glad to see you mention "finding" because that is a big part of the equation but has nothing to do with calling and shooting abilities. I just draw a distinction between the two because I like to recognize each as a seperate area of expertise.

Byran J.: "IF there were a higher number of teams that hunted all three events a points system would recognize the most CONSISTANT hunters. Anyone can luck out and do really well in A contest or do well on their home turf. It takes something to be competitive nearly every time you compete no matter where it is held."

I agree but that still doesn't level the playing field for equal opportunity. The teams with the most virgin eared coyotes will consistantly win over those who are calling in areas of less coyotes and more hunting pressure. I just like to see credit given to those who call and shoot a high percentage of what they see.

If you want to level the playing field, you would have to draw for areas of equal opportunity. Some teams are much better at finding and doing whatever it takes to tie up large tracts of private land with virgin eared coyotes. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that or that it should be different, my point is that it has nothing to do with their calling and/or shooting ability.

For example, Les and Jeff Johnson would compete under an equal opportunity situation but I can't say that about other consistant winning teams. Some teams are really good callers and shooters but they never reach the top because they simply dont have the coyotes to compete. Right or wrong, good or bad that's just how it is.

It goes back to who is the best at finding good places and who is the best at making the most of what they have.

~SH~

[ November 04, 2008, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on November 04, 2008, 06:57 AM:
 
jrb: "If you want to make a coyote worth 200% of another... let Roede, Huber & Cal buzz his ass with a trifecta of choppers and biplanes blaring Foxpro, Minaska and WT distress sounds on loudspeakers. Paintball him purple 12 hours before the hunt opens up- that's a 2 point coyote!"

LOL!

Touche!

I can remember a few 3 point coyotes that had to be sniped at long ranges. You didn't call them, you just exposed them.

~SH~
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on November 04, 2008, 07:11 AM:
 
I think I will forward a link to this thread to Brent.

The reason we did not enter last year is due to the rule that Brent has stating if a team wins 2 years in a row they must sit out or split up for 1 year. So yes we are going to enter it this year.

Jeremy Gugelmeyer
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 04, 2008, 08:01 AM:
 
Better yet, go out and trap five coyotes in different areas and put a cattle tag in their ear. Anyone that brings back a tagged coyote gets a buttload of extra points. LOL

Scott, thanks for offering your insight on the sanctioning idea. I was just throwing it out there, perfectly aware that the idea may have been considered previously but dismissed for whatever the reasons were at the time. I'm sure that the current system is a result of years of tweaks here and there and what we have now is the sum total of what works, minus what doesn't. I would bet that Brent is just trying to liven things up a bit with some new ideas to keep the contest fresh.
 

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Posted by predator sniper (Member # 702) on November 04, 2008, 08:36 AM:
 
Hey all:
got this thread and wanted to add my thoughts. I do want to hear about pros and cons on this 2 pointer subject.
I do not get to spend much time on the boards so feel free to e-mail me brent@predatorsniperstyx.com
There are not alot of coyotes out there that have a 80% plus white tipped tail. I just returned from a NM hunt where 2 coyotes that were shot had the white tipped tail.
Allot of coyotes will have 6 to 20 hairs in the black tip on thier tails. They would not qualify. The tail needs to be 80% + white. (I belive that any person could tell if the tail hair was compromised to be made mostly white)
This may not be a good idea for the contest itself, as it can change the place standings for sure, and there is no skill required. It is like a lottery bonus. Maybe the 2 pointer coyote needs to be used as a lottery type of situation.
For example, $1.00 from every teams entry fee goes into a pot. This monies will held until a 2 pointer is taken. Each year monies will be taken and added to the pot till a 2 poiter coyote has been taken.
In the event that there are several 2 pointer coyotes taken during the contest, ties would be broken by drawning of cards. The highest card takes top money and the second hinghest card takes next money and so forth.
This would make it even for all teams and there would be no skill requirement, geographic benifit or unfair advantage by any certain team. Pure and simple the 2 pointer coyote would be a lottery coyote.
Please throw ideas around about the 2 pointer coyote and give me some input. I want to do something new and different! Keeping The Midwest Coyote Calling Event the Masters of Coyote Calling!
Again Thanks all
Brent Rueb
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 04, 2008, 10:06 AM:
 
Brent,

Thank you for coming on here and voicing your thoughts. Open talk about it with you included is probly best.

I dont mind the idea of 1 dollar from each team going to a team with a white tipped coyote. I dont know how often they occur or anything like that but it still leaves the opportunity for a less fortunate/motivated/lucky team to have a chance at winning something without them placing by shooting less coyotes than someone else and beating them.

[ November 04, 2008, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 04, 2008, 10:37 AM:
 
Brent, I have never seen a coyote with an 80% white tail. I see a lot of coyotes with white tips but that never comprises more than a guestimated 10 to 15% of the total tail length.
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on November 04, 2008, 11:21 AM:
 
I can see your point about the road races. It probably makes for a safer event as well. Generally if we have coyotes in the back of the truck we are at check in at least an hour early. We never have had the confidence that one or two more stands would change much but we knew if we beat everyone else with that number of coyotes to check in it would. I guess in an event where ties were broken by total weight we would be making more stands.

I must admit if we saw 52 coyotes I would want at least 26 of them in the bed to be satisfied. If we only killed 13 something went wrong either we did not do well in handling multiples, didn’t shoot straight, bumped a bunch walking in, or made some other mental mistake.

Byran J.: "What about the guy getting in the thick stuff with a shotgun. He might have had 52 coyotes running around him all day long but could only see 8?"

SH: If he didn't see them, they would or should not have been counted as "seen".

I guess the point I’m trying to make here is we are dealing with unknown variables. Part of the game is to set your stand up to see most of the animals you call. Poor stand selection will cost you but could make shooting percentage look good. IF two different hunters could hunt the same area and all things remain equal. One went through made 20 stands and killed 8 of 8 coyotes seen. The other went through the same area made 20 stands and with better stand selection saw 26 and killed 13. One had a much higher shooting percentage but I think the other made the most of what he had. SELF EVALUATION: If I made 20 stands and killed 8 for 8 I would be happy but I should be looking for things I might have done differently. (on contest day) Am I wrong?

SH: “I just like to see credit given to those who call and shoot a high percentage of what they see.”

I can certainly appreciate that. In most cases that credit is due. I know for a fact that I have killed more coyotes on contest day than much better teams, simply because I had the TIME to find more coyotes than they did.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 04, 2008, 12:07 PM:
 
Higgins, he is talking about a tail with a white tip, not a tail that is 80% white. You know? There are some tails where there are a few strands of black mixed with the white, ON THE TIP. He doesn't think it qualifies? I think a white tip is a white tip, regardless of the percentage of white hair. Talk about splitting hairs!

Okay, I will throw another of my half baked opinions into the mix. A coyote is a coyote, this is bs about breaking ties by weighing them, unless it's the heaviest coyote. You guys are way behind the learning curve on this issue. We were breaking ties 40 years ago by position. If it comes down to speeding and recless driving, that's a separate issue that can be dealt with, but of all the methods used to break ties, the earliest returning is the fairest, if we must BREAK TIES. I can see it in Pennsylvania, where there might be twenty teams with one coyote. I guess weighing the coyotes makes a little sense. But, in my book 15 yearling coyotes is equal to 15 mature coyotes when it comes to determining winners by body count. If it's body count, it's body count. If it's weight, then numbers don't mean a thing. Eight mature coyotes might WEIGH more than twelve young coyotes. When you come right down to it, it's calling the most and killing the most that matters. Within the timeframe allowed.

Another bullshit idea is asking how many coyotes they saw, as opposed to what percentage they killed. This is beyond stupid. What, now we have the honor system? Can we just say how many we killed and not bother to drag them back to check in?

In some circumstances, some places, a team might have multiples on every stand, and if it's in fairly heavy cover, they only kill one of three or one of four. The number seen begins to have less importance than under other situations. Other times, WTF, you see five singles and dump five. Big whoopie.

Don't even bother asking how many were seen. How is that germane to the contest? I personally don't give a shit if you killed every coyote you saw and returned with 5, or you missed five and returned with five....it's still five coyotes.

This skill evaluation stuff is for the birds. Either it's body count or it isn't. That's where the bs ends. I mean, honestly; if somebody was attempting to rate my performance because I announced 8 seen and five killed, without understanding why it was impossible to even get a shot off at the other three, well, that's a superficial evaluation.

It all comes down to quality hunting areas. Some of these guys have gold plated access, and others don't, for a multitude of reasons. Once you reach a certain level, makeable kills are expected and there are few excuses. If a competent team says they saw ten and killed five, I assume they have good reason. I will not think; MAN, they stink!

Bottom line: body count.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 04, 2008, 12:44 PM:
 
Good points LB.

Guys can we try not to stray from the point of this thread and the original subject if we can.

[ November 04, 2008, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 04, 2008, 12:51 PM:
 
WHAT?

No, I don't think so, and I don't think you have any business suggesting it! We specifically don't have moderators on Huntmasters, Amigo. There is no such thing as staying on topic. This is an open forum, free speech is encouraged.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 04, 2008, 01:05 PM:
 
10-4 have at it then
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on November 04, 2008, 03:12 PM:
 
Leonard I don’t see that you and I are too far off?

Maybe, you are upset about my evaluation of the numbers? I was just trying to convey what I would think if I put up those numbers. I would never evaluate another team that way. Skill evaluation is personal, and Scott posted the formula that I use to evaluate my personal performance on another site some time ago. I’m kinda trying to get him to give it up here. It has helped me improve and find areas that I need to work on to be more competitive.

I’m not going to say that a competent team stinks if they kill 1 or no coyotes either. If they are truly competent and proven it in the past there are valid reasons as well.

Edit: to add, but I don’t think they should get a trophy.

[ November 04, 2008, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Bryan J ]
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 04, 2008, 03:36 PM:
 
Just spent a long while reading through the old longer threads LOL. New to the board and kind I put my boot in my mouth. I understand better now.

I was just trying to call out the point about the white tips taking even more of the skill element away. I see all your points and agree with most. Was not meant to be personal in any way just trying to call out that topic. My bad.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on November 04, 2008, 03:57 PM:
 
I stand by my original statement. I hate to see the winner of a coyote killing contest being detemined by a genetic lottery. The winner ofthe contest should be the one with the most killed coyotes. If thats one of the teams with the best ground, so be it. Its all part of it. They are probably also the team that worked year round to make the contacts and get the ground.

I always thought that the first back was the best way to break a tie, but I had never looked at it from Scotts point. It makes sence too, but giving extra credit for a friggin white tipped tail doesnt.

Maintain

P.S. I voted today also(hows that for off topic lol)
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on November 04, 2008, 04:55 PM:
 
Brent,
I like the $1 idea a lot better than it being part of the entire contest and it might be a deciding factor of who might win.

I don't see why a guy that checks in first should have anymore right to win then the guy that checked in right after that guy with the same number of coyotes. What makes the first guy any better. The rules state what time you have to be back and if you don't use the whole time then thats your own fault. Im not sure if the weight is any better but I think its probably the best for reasons Scott has already stated.

Jeremy Gugelmeyer
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on November 04, 2008, 05:17 PM:
 
Didn't we kick around an idea once of a nationwide coyote calling event linked up via the internet.

One day, sunrise to suset, anywhere in the U.S.

It would allow for everyone to use a home field, honeyhole, advantage.

Let's just say the first Sat. in Dec, we have the VHA hunt here now on that date and just link up the results with the other hunts and let the chips fall where they may. We still have our local hunt and we see how we stacked up against other areas of the country on that day. Perfect, hell no, but different!!
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on November 04, 2008, 06:00 PM:
 
I guess I don't look at the "how many seen to how many killed" ratio as being a way to assess a teams call/killing ability, but rather a simple stored number that can be used to judge coyote populations across the country.
Like someone else said, seen coyotes doesn't tell us how many were called, so how can it be used to determine the call to kill ratio. Hell, they count coyotes that were seen from the road, bumped coyotes, called coyotes, etc. That ain't got nothing to do with call to kill ratio, what it does do is tell us "how many coyotes were seen" Nothing more, nothing less!
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on November 04, 2008, 06:16 PM:
 
I have never understood why they asked how many coyotes were seen. I can't imagine that many are totally honest about that anyway. Nobobdys business and all that matters is what was killed. I do however agree with ties being broken by wieght. I have been in a few races to Rawlins and it's not fun. I think that each team should use most of the allotted time and ties be broken by wieght. It was always a gamble to quit early to try to beat someone in a tiebreaker, or do you hunt to the end and hope for another coyote. You aren't comparing 15 big coyotes to 12 little ones. It's a tie breaker, you are comparing 15 to 15.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 04, 2008, 07:14 PM:
 
Patterson; You can probably go ahead and cancel your newspaper & magazine subscriptions........there's a ton of reading here. Some good info & a wee bit of b.s.

Randy; I like the idea of a National Internet Coyote Calling Event. A decent day & I could tie for 5th with about 700 other guys but hey...5th in a National sounds good.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on November 04, 2008, 09:31 PM:
 
Koko, that aint no lie. I used to get predatorextreme but do not anymore. I didnt really like a lot of the articles and only found myself looking at all the pretty advertisments to sucker people into buying worthless stuff. I find a lot more usefull info sifting through the forums. LOT of stuff on this site to read through.

I think having ties broken by time of check in might work well for one day contests but i believe two day contests are meant to draw more teams in from further distances.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on November 04, 2008, 10:09 PM:
 
Cal,

The best answer to the question of how many were seen, would be "just these, and a couple that the dumbass missed"

Just be sure that your partner doesn't tell anyone that he killed everything he shot at !
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on November 04, 2008, 10:13 PM:
 
L: "This is an open forum, free speech is encouraged."

Good, we'll test it out on your, self proclaimed, half baked opinions. LOL!

L: "A coyote is a coyote, this is bs about breaking ties by weighing them, unless it's the heaviest coyote."

There is three good reasons to break ties by total weight of coyotes.

1. Stop the road races.

2. Creates a disincentive for teams to stack on top of each other near the check in point on the second day of the contest.

3. There is unquestionably more expertise required in killing larger more mature educated coyotes than a bunch of mangy pups. Weight gives the advantage to the teams who call and kill more adults WHEN BREAKING TIES. If this was only about body counts we'd see who could gas the most coyote dens and wire out the little turtle crawlers with closed eyes.

"Heck, old Henry brought in 40 of the little turds in a gunny sack"

L: "We were breaking ties 40 years ago by position."

40 years later they discovered a better way! LOL!

L: "If it comes down to speeding and recless driving, that's a separate issue that can be dealt with,..."

Haha! Oh yeh? How?

"ATTENTION ALL UNITS, BE ON THE ALERT FOR A BLACK EXTENDED CAB PICKUP WITH A SHOOTING RACK ON THE TOPPER...BE READY WITH THE SPIKE STRIPS"


L: "but of all the methods used to break ties, the earliest returning is the fairest,"

I respectfully disagree!

L: "But, in my book 15 yearling coyotes is equal to 15 mature coyotes when it comes to determining winners by body count."

In my book, when breaking ties, those who can handle the mature coyotes beat the milk teeth shooters every time.

L: "Eight mature coyotes might WEIGH more than twelve young coyotes."

Then twelve wins. Weight is only considered during breaking of ties and in the big coyote / little coyote (THEY'RE NOT DOGS THEY'RE COYOTES - for those who call them "dogs") contest.

L: "Another bullshit idea is asking how many coyotes they saw, as opposed to what percentage they killed. This is beyond stupid. What, now we have the honor system? Can we just say how many we killed and not bother to drag them back to check in?"

What are you talking about "drag them back to check in"??

You are asked how many you saw during check in and you answer the question. What's the problem?

You did bring up a very important point here that I have considered but hadn't mentioned. You trust that people are telling you the truth about how many they saw?

That's a huge variable but I still find the information of coyotes seen interesting from the standpoint of populations. Better coyote hunters will consistantly kill over 50% of the coyotes they see THAT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO. If a coyote runs over the hill, that coyote isn't lost if he's not leaving the country. Give me a team that can consistantly roll doubles and triples as opposed to those who piss in their boots at the thought of multiple coyotes and they will consistantly rise to the top.

I find the "coyotes seen" information interesting, you don't. God bless America!

L: "In some circumstances, some places, a team might have multiples on every stand, and if it's in fairly heavy cover, they only kill one of three or one of four. The number seen begins to have less importance than under other situations."

I can see your point from the standpoint of tall heavy Arizona type cover. In the more open northern plains, you have more opportunity to kill the coyotes you see.

L: "Don't even bother asking how many were seen. How is that germane to the contest? I personally don't give a shit if you killed every coyote you saw and returned with 5, or you missed five and returned with five....it's still five coyotes."

Try the decaf Amigo! Don't take it so personal. It's just a question Leonard.

"How many coyotes did you see Leonard"

L: "WHAT THE #&(#@^(*# are you asking me such a #^&*@#(^#@ stupid #^(@ question as #&*@^( that for????? )*R)#$#!!!!!

Question: "I'll put you down for three then Leonard"

You crack me up when you forget your meds. LOL!

Of course there is numerous variables involved and those who have been at this game for awhile know what those variables are and take them into consideration. I wasn't suggesting it was a catch all comparison. I know from my own experiences that any time I kill over 50% of the coyotes I see THAT I HAVE ACCESS TO, I've had an "above average day" (variables considered).

You can't kill large numbers of coyotes unless there is large numbers of coyotes there to be killed.

Again, assuming the information is honest. I'm sure since some have started paying attention to shooting percentages, the information is probably less reliable.

Did we test the limits of free speech here? LOL!

~SH~

[ November 05, 2008, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on November 04, 2008, 10:23 PM:
 
Patterson: "10-4 have at it then"

Ah don't tuck your tail and run. His bark is bigger than his bite. He threw my fat ass out the door before and I'm back ribbing him. He drops the hackles when he starts pulling cactus out of those hush puppies. LOL!

Mocassins to walk across the cactus flats......sheeeesh!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 04, 2008, 10:46 PM:
 
I'm too bummed to address all of Scott's specious arguments. But, we used to deal with those speed violations all the time, by way of the hunt rules and hunt committee inquisions afterwards. It stops it just fine. I still say, a coyote is a coyote. You are on the same slippery slope as awarding TWO POINTS for white tips. A mature coyote is a coyote and so is a pup. What are you suggesting, two points for a mature coyote? IT is the luck of the draw what kind of a response you get on a stand. Take a pup and be satisfied, a coyote is a coyote and when you turn in 12 pups, they count just the same, in every contest I ever participated in, which is probably more that you will ever see, by the way.

Good hunting. LB

PS my Hush puppies were Norman Swartznegger approved desert camo combat boots, just to save a couple pounds in baggage. I actually didn't know there was cactus in South Dakota....if that's what you call that tiny little shit? Now, we got real cactus, my friend. Don't hit it with your truck or you will be walking; and not from punctured tires either.

[ November 04, 2008, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on November 05, 2008, 05:57 AM:
 
Leonard,

In thinking about this, I think you misunderstood something here. There is no award or recognition that goes with coyotes seen vs coyotes killed. To be honest, I don't think it was meant to be any more than a barometer on the coyote population. Some of us started looking at shooting percentages, as a point of discussion, and as a self evaluation of making the most of what you have but as you mentioned, it's only as good as the honor system and the variables involved (access to the coyotes seen). It's information that is written down and displayed and everyone looks at it differently or they don't even look at it. There is no tangible incentives involved with the number of "coyotes seen" vs "coyotes killed".

L: "What are you suggesting, two points for a mature coyote?"

Of course not! Total weight of coyotes is simply a way to break ties that doesn't cause the problems I mentioned above and it rewards those who kill more mature coyotes as a result. A team with 12 milk whiskered pups beats a team with 11 old snaggle tooths. Again, it is only used as a tie breaker and I'll argue till the end of time that it's a better system because I have seen the results of each. Breaking ties by placing leads to far more problems and that is an opinion shared by many other hunters who have made the comparison.

The "big coyote / little coyote" aspect of these hunts has nothing to do with placing or the placing awards. It is simply an OPTIONAL addition to the contest so someone who didn't get many coyotes might still have the biggest or smallest coyote and be awarded with some gas money. In most contests, the "big coyote - little coyote" contest is an option for each team to decide whether they want to get into it or not.

The white tippped coyote tail aspect would put another interesting twist on the competition if it was kept on the side as Brent mentioned and had nothing to do with the placing. I'm totally opposed to white tips being given any other advantage because it's a novelty that has nothing to do with skill. It's a new twist that creates interest much like brown vs. yellow eyed coyotes to those who are paying attention.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the contests you were involved in also awarded points OR included other species in the body count such as bobcats, grey fox, red fox, etc. etc. Right?

Most of the coyote calling contests anymore are just that, coyote calling contests.

I'm not saying this to grease Brent in any way but simply as a matter of stating fact. Brent runs, far and away, the best coyote calling contest I have ever been in because the playing field is as level as you can get short of drawing for areas (not saying that drawing for areas would be a better option or that there wouldn't be other problems with it). Your entry money and calcutta money, short of what is actually needed to run the contest, is paid back to the contestants.

As someone mentioned, part of the quest is to find a good area but again, having a good area has nothing to do with the skill involved with what you do with the coyotes you have. I only emphasize that point because some teams are very good at making the most of what they have but at the end of the day, how well you called and shot for the situation you had available is for personal satisfaction only unless you were able to kill enough coyotes to compete.

As an example, last year in St. Francis we had the worst year so far. We only saw 4 and killed 3. We shot 4 times and the only shot missed was a shot I missed at 500 yards at a coyote that "heard" us and wouldn't come in. I felt good about our shooting but it didn't win us a dime. LOL!

Save me a place Brent my check will be arriving soon.

~SH~

[ November 05, 2008, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 05, 2008, 09:14 AM:
 
I have not misunderstood anything, Scott.

We are debating the merits of (among other things) awarding placement based on the weight of the whole body count. I submit that this is exactly the same thing as 2 points for a white tail. Perhaps some skill is involved in killing mature coyotes, but don't try and sling some bullshit by talking about "12 milk whiskered pups". That won't be a factor and you know it. More likely, one team will have three YOY coyotes and another team will have four....maybe five, in their total number of (what?) twelve, for the sake of argument. Now, stay with me here. I KNOW we aren't talking about 11 snaggle tooths versus 12 pups. It would be twelve snaggle tooths versus 12 milk wiskered, in your version of reality. At that point, one of those old snaggle toothed becomes a TWO POINTER!

Whatever, if that's the rule, that's the rule. But, why do you discount a team that is sitting in the parking lot four hours early with twelve coyotes, versus a team that made twelve more stands and just barely made it? Also, with twelve coyotes? You don't see some basis for recognition?

That is...if a tie must be decided, and, I'm not actually sure it is necessary? You have so many hours to wack and stack. If two teams have the same amount, why get into other considerations for judging skill in killing coyotes? It is imperfect standards, it's subjective; you and I could argue the relative merits of each remedy 'til hell freezes over and not change either's mind.

One small irritation, if you don't mind?

quote:

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the contests you were involved in also awarded points OR included other species in the body count such as bobcats, grey fox, red fox, etc. etc. Right?

Most of the coyote calling contests anymore are just that, coyote calling contests.

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Didn't we kick around an idea once of a nationwide coyote calling event linked up via the internet.

One day, sunrise to suset, anywhere in the U.S.

It would allow for everyone to use a home field, honeyhole, advantage.

Let's just say the first Sat. in Dec, we have the VHA hunt here now on that date and just link up the results with the other hunts and let the chips fall where they may. We still have our local hunt and we see how we stacked up against other areas of the country on that day. Perfect, hell no, but different!!

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A 3 part event. Pick the dates 1 month apart beforehand. Add up all of a team's coyotes taken in the 3 part series for grand total winning team.
Winner takes all. If you have poor populations in your area don't enter the event.

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Like Coyote whacker stated we don't have the numbers like where you live so it would'nt be much of a contest and a waste of 50 bucks.
I guess you could have a contest with Texas callers and those from AZ..
Most coyote contests have no meaning to me, 30 teams enter and one team wins. They are not the best callers in the world just the best of the 30 teams.
Take the two best teams from say Texas and Az and have them compete in the N.D. classic and see how they stack up...
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on November 06, 2008, 04:29 PM:
 
How about the first Sat. in Dec. Jan and Feb.

I agree that no entry fees just braggin rights, a fun deal. If it falls on a contest date you just take those coyotes you killed that day etc. Better make it a one or two man deal, your choice because some may not be able to hunt with the same partner, don't make to many rules if any. Just called in killed coyotes from a day of hunting. Sun up to sun down.

I realize goin in I do not live in an area that has high numbers and those who do will have an advantage, how about this we put callers in divisions based on location, SW division, midwest, eastern, etc. etc.
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on November 06, 2008, 05:47 PM:
 
Leonard, I have seen 3 lions checked in on state hunts when it was legal, I probably only went on 10 or so 48 hour state hunts in 25 years, I'm sure I missed seeing a couple others in all that time.

Never seen a wolf checked in, mainly because it was against the law to hunt them anywhere a team could hunt. I never could figure out why it was even on the list. That also goes for mt lions after the big vote of the city people. Not even a hair off a lion is allowed into California.

I saw 45 coyotes checked in by one team two different times. That was an awesome sight but almost as impressive was 42 animals checked in and 15 of them were bobcats.

I'm sorry, I had to say something. It's just to hard to sit here and remember the old days without saying anything.

[ November 06, 2008, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 06, 2008, 06:52 PM:
 
Danny, lions and wolf were always on the list as a matter of PRINCIPLE. The proviso was always, when and where legal. This is why some hunts had the check in in Nevada and Arizona where lions are legal. I didn't mean to say that wolves were killed on a State Hunt, just that a very few were killed and turned in by state members and pins awarded. Where they were taken is anybody's guess?

Where the hell was I when those three lions were turned in? I remember Ricki's tail, and another check in, several years ago out at Kramer Junction, I think it was Slanney and they were disqualified. Don't remember three?

Yeah, tell me about it, re: 15 bobcats on a state hunt. Almost as impressive was all those animals in a Bronco, that was a full body hunt.

You just try that sometime, Scott. I got five once, and thought I was hot shit!
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on November 07, 2008, 08:27 AM:
 
Seen the lions back in the 70s when you could check them in from out of state, don't remember seeing you at those check-ins.

A couple years before Rick turned in a lion, a member of the high desert took one.

I never seen the big state hunt check-in outside of California, except for maybe a 18 or 24 hour hunt. You got to remember, I didn't join tell 1975.

All those cats ( 15 ) were checked in on the 1980 state hunt by J. Terry, Skip C and Bruce D. I remember that hunt good because we hunted down by the river around Palo Verda. Granville and I checked in 14 animals and ended up in 7th place. Won our year end chapter hunt and a big ol trophy lol.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 07, 2008, 08:53 AM:
 
Not the same hunt. Dodd and Christenson are still around but Terry has been living in southern Utah for quite a while, I think?

The one I'm talking about was the State Hunt held at Zapata Construction out in Colton, run by Bill Odom at the time. Come to think about it, he lives in southern Utah, too? Anyway, I don't remember seeing your skinny ass there?

Good hunting. LB

PS I knew Granville before you did. He was a member of San Gabriel, where we taught him everything he knows. lol
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on November 07, 2008, 03:01 PM:
 
Geezzzz, you do everything before me lol. But you're older so I guess that's alright.

Crow worked at Mattel toys back in the 70s, one of my many wives worked there at the time. She told Granville about the Long Beach Chapter of the CSVCA and he join.

I was the guy that showed him the ropes, he had never been predator calling before that time.

Within a couple years him and I won everything there was to win in the LB chapter, we beat them so bad the chapter folded up, no more LB Chapter 15.

Cranville was trying to start the So Cal Chapter 16, but he wanted to go on the state hunts and so did I, so we both joined the SG chapter for a year.

At around the same time Jim Strouble was trying to start the Riverside chapter 17. A few years after that I started the High Desert Chapter 18.

They took a lung out of my skinny ass but they left part of my brain, the part that remembers lol.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 07, 2008, 03:15 PM:
 
Hmm? I must have just came back to San Gabriel that same year? Pat and I were with Covina Ch. for about three years, due to a disagreement over the hunt held at the Famosa Drag strip, in Bakersfield, when Don Carper was Hunt Chairman. But, I still don't remember you belonging to SG?

Well, the AZ clubs are beginning to have the same political "stuff" that torpedoed the CSVCA.

I might be older, but I can still beat you in a race around the block, especially now!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on November 08, 2008, 10:22 AM:
 
I'm fast for the first 5 yards, after that I need Oxygen.

To bad about the Arizona clubs, why can't people just go hunting?

By the way, I can't stand the word harvested, reminds me of farming. Whats wrong with the words......I kill it or I shot the bastard?
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on November 08, 2008, 12:10 PM:
 
Kiled, whacked, rolled, hammered ,the coyote and all I harvested was a $12.00 pelt.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 08, 2008, 01:22 PM:
 
Let's see? At $2.79 a gallon, or the last time I was in Seligman, $3.75! Wow, twelve bucks would almost pay what it costs to drive into Seligman to gas up, and back again!

Stick to lions.

edit: was that one $2 cartridge, or two?

[ November 08, 2008, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on November 08, 2008, 03:26 PM:
 
$3.50 hevi shot dead coyote load LOL!
and such a deal on a lion the taxi bill will probably be around $2,000.00 I gotta find a cheaper pursuit!
 

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Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on November 08, 2008, 08:05 PM:
 
IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards
Just happened to call in a pack of 5 Coyotes at one stand yesterday and killed 3 of the 5.Upon gathering up the contestants for a photo shoot,I noticed the white tips on the tails.Until reading this post regarding white tipped tails, I never gave it a second thought or paid much attention to them.Damned if we don't have them right here in Southern California too.Got to wondering however,if these five are from the same litter, why don't they all have white tips.The one on the right has only a few white hairs.Perhaps they are not related and are out just chumming around.For the sake of the two that barely made it,they should be a bit more cautious when they hear a Foxpro.
 

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Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on November 08, 2008, 08:56 PM:
 

 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 08, 2008, 11:39 PM:
 
Looking at Gary's pic, if I were judging two pointers, for any consideration, I'd call the two outside tails "white tips". And, if the right one was mine, I'd be upset if somebody called it less that 80% white tipped.

But, as anybody can see, they are a lot more common than we have been told.

Good hunting. LB

[ November 08, 2008, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on November 09, 2008, 04:57 PM:
 
One of the coyotes I killed yesterday had a white tip. I kill three or four every year that have a white tip.

The AR shot is for LB.





[ November 09, 2008, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 09, 2008, 05:41 PM:
 
Good pics, Kelly. Does that AR have an "upper" or no?
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on November 09, 2008, 06:07 PM:
 
I know you know, but yes it does LB. That upper is a 25 WSSM that Dan build up. Got it tuned up with some 100gr bullets as deer season starts here on the 22nd.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on November 09, 2008, 06:44 PM:
 
Speaking of uppers LOL.

Got this rifle from GAP just before we went to TX. Just sighted it in down there. Not really a night time coyote gun, so it did not see any action.

This is the first 5 shot group shot after I got home.
700 action
26 in. Lilja barrel
17 Fireball
100 yards



Randy

[ November 09, 2008, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: R.Shaw ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on November 09, 2008, 08:12 PM:
 
That will get them..
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on November 09, 2008, 08:30 PM:
 
That will work Randy. It has cat wrote all over it.
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on November 11, 2008, 09:09 AM:
 
Damn Randy you just can’t do anything right these days!!! It is .172 not .177!!! LOL

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 11, 2008, 09:12 AM:
 
I got it; I think?
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on November 11, 2008, 09:24 AM:
 
I didnt get it.

Randy
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 11, 2008, 09:54 AM:
 
BB gun
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on November 11, 2008, 10:36 AM:
 
.177 is a pellet diameter .172 is the bullet diameter thus you should deduct .172 from your outside spread rather than .177
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 11, 2008, 11:27 AM:
 
...which opens his wallet group to a very modest .344, right? Imagine, trying to impress the Peanut gallery with a .339" group!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on November 11, 2008, 11:50 AM:
 
LOL it is an inside joke inspired by recent events Leonard. Sorry.

Randy and the rest of the thugs were on chat the other night at the Midwest board. When a thread popped up on PM about bobcats. Randy, decided to entertain everyone on chat and posted that cats don’t smell any better than people do on the thread at PM. Then back to chat he goes and starts a betting pool on who would be the first to correct him in his misguided ways. Randy would have won as I understand it but everyone was surprised at the venomous attack that came from a dark horse. LOL I am not sure how all the contestants placed?

Good hunting.

Q,

[ November 11, 2008, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Q-Wagoner ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 11, 2008, 12:40 PM:
 
Okay, I made one of my infrequent trips to PM INC. and read about bobcats and the shit stirers.

I'm afraid I have to agree with the WY guy. I know that a cat doesn't want to circle downwind, but that doesn't meran he cannot smell a human; if he just happens to approach from that direction.

A bobcat doesn't think you can harm him with anything, so why would he be afraid if he smells man? That's the exact opposite of a coyote who may not know, but he isn't taking any chances. A cat sits there, knows you are where you are, and doesn't think you can see him or doesn't understand why you might want to harm him? It's complicated, but I know damned well that a bobcat can smell me, downwind. Is his semse of smell not as good as a coyote? My guess is it is not. But, it's good enough to detect your stinky ass from downwind.

And, Geordie! Holy cow, man! You misspelled at least one word; twice! Zero credibility. lol

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on November 11, 2008, 01:30 PM:
 

quote:

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Is his semse of smell not as good

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quote:

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And, Geordie! Holy cow, man! You misspelled at least one word; twice! Zero credibility. lol

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Oh hell, I did? I proof read my post, and everything looked ok. I guess us Okies aren't much on spelling. We do at least know how to vote.

Oh yeah.....maintain!
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on November 11, 2008, 04:50 PM:
 
LOL Do I smell something burning!!

Q,
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on November 17, 2008, 09:53 AM:
 
L: "Of course, I was exaggerating about returning to check in four hours early (just like you have been doing) and of course, you jumped all over it. I know very well the rewards in making every stand count."

I know where you are coming from.

This is the problem with internet forums, one person would read your statement above ("just like you have been doing") to refer to checking in 4 hours early while others would read it as a reference to exaggerating. I'm sure Leonard was referring to exaggerating because the only time I have ever checked in early to a contest was during high winds and blowing snow that made it virtually impossible to call. Just wanted to clarify a potential misunderstanding with the readers.

Yeh Leonard, I know that taking a good number of bobcats is no easy feat even in an area with a lot of cats. First it would require finding a good area with lots of cats which would be a skill in itself plus the patience that would be required to to get the killing shot but cats are still cats. Of course night calling being different than day. Bobcats are not nearly as responsive as most coyotes due to their lazy and complacent behavior which in itself makes them difficult. They are slow to approach and slow to leave. Your description of cats in your recent post is consistant with my observations.

Cats can smell a lot better than people give them credit for, they simply don't react to those odors in the same manner as coyotes as you pointed out. I also realize that Randy Shaw and/or Q were just razzing some of the egos on the other forum with their comments and not necessarily being serious.

Nothing like picking on those who think they know more than they actually know. LOL!

~SH~

[ November 17, 2008, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on November 17, 2008, 12:00 PM:
 
I hope this works. I went and hunted the Nv state hunt this last weekend and 2 of the coyotes we took had w tips 2 of the winning teem had w tips and I saw 1 other the winning teem came in with 12 dogs We tied for 4th but wear 2nd in so 5th I have killed w tiped in a lot of plases more in AZ because I have spent most my life thear but I think you will find the pigment all over the country Just my guess
Good Hunting Kevin

Well I cant make the photo work Sorry
Nasa can I sent it to you and have you publish it for me Thanks
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 17, 2008, 01:24 PM:
 
Kevin, once you click on "Image" you have to put the code between the brackets that you have previously uploaded to a hosting site.

Once upon a time, we never saw white tips in Nevada, now they are common. Wonder why?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on November 17, 2008, 03:41 PM:
 
Lenord the photo I was trying to post was from a camra phone and did not need to be down sised I am not vary pc smart. LOL
I sent the photo to Nasa I think he will post for me
Thanks Kevin
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 17, 2008, 05:04 PM:
 
I'm sure he can figure it out; scientists are pretty smart.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on November 18, 2008, 10:22 AM:
 
KevinKKaller, is that state championship contest held out of Elko?
Maybe leonard and I should go win it next year, just to show em old guys rule.
 

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Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on November 23, 2008, 06:41 PM:
 
Yes it is I can forward the info next year if you are interested.
The GSPHA has its Id state champ hunt in Jan if interested!
We put on a prity good show for little money But it is also a little pay back as well.
Good food and challanging calling
Good Hunting Kevin
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on November 24, 2008, 01:41 PM:
 
I believe I was made an honorary member of the GSPHA a few years ago, my membership probably run out lol. Because of my operation I'd think Jan would be to early, but maybe next year. I'm not that far from Idaho.
I think I housed a couple of the GSPHA members at my motel down in NM as they went hunting with one of the ex winners of the World hunt. Geezzz, and I never got to go hunting with them that time.
Yes, I am interested in the state hunt up in Elko for next year. Sounds like fun, plus I'd get to meet some of the local pros. Thanks Kevin
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 28, 2008, 10:45 AM:
 
I was reminded of something that happened last year when Brent and I partnered up for the NE KS Coyote Calling Challenge while Q and I were passing the time between stands this weekend. The third coyote we got on the first day was a long shot of about 400+ yards. Brent ran him down and he was still very lively, so he called me forward with my pistola. Damned coyote wouldn't sit still to die, so I had to run him down. After missing three shots on the fly, I ran up behind the fleeing coyote and kicked it square in the ass, flipping it over to face me where it growled bravely, then died.

I suggest that if you wanna give double points for a coyote, the players have to kick it in the ass first, then kill it. THAT would take some skill. LOL
 

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Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on November 30, 2008, 11:55 AM:
 
onecoyote My door is always open.
I am not on th pc much any more but check in from time to time
I am headded out to Co. on Wed for the world Then down to AZ to see my kids and Mom. so if you ever get the desire to hit Id let me know.
Good Hunting Kevin
 

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