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Author
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Topic: Volume and how to use it
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 10, 2010 11:22 AM
I'm asking the question; does loud volume increase the odds that a coyote will be a hard charger?
What happens when you decrease volume when an animal is first sighted?
Those of us that use pauses, do you have significantly less hard chargers? Is a hard charger mostly an Alpha animal?
How many do you see that flare in, do not run to the caller and never stop? Maybe you call it "drive by"? Is this phenomena epidemic, under certain conditions? In other words, every animal does it, like all morning?
Does calling from two or more locations work? "very" effective? Not at all? For instance, hand calling while using a remote electronic machine.
I want to kick around how you use your machine, what you think, how do you mix sounds that are not complimentary. Conclusions, observations? What do you think? Pick a specific and wade in....you don't need to be an expert, either!
Good hunting. LB
[ March 10, 2010, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 10, 2010 11:44 AM
Well Leonard I have almost always called pretty dang loud. Some coyotes come in hard and fast, while others do not. I used to call pretty much continuous, but there seems to be some evidence that coyotes in some areas are wising up to non stop screams. I am becoming an advocate of letting the call play five or six screams, and then muting the sound for several minutes. I have received E mails from a couple of fellows who have gone back to their mouth blown calls, and the coyotes seem to be responding better for them again. Food for thought?
On the calling from two different locations, I often use my cow horn howler for the coyote vocals to start off a stand. My FoxPro is sitting out there fifty yards cross-wind, and I use it to play the puppy squeals. Like any other little trick, sometimes it works and sometimes not. I have also had good luck playing a rabbit distress on the Electronic caller while I blow on a Burnham mini-squeal at the same time.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted March 10, 2010 01:07 PM
My $.02 worth is that loud volume decreases the odds of a hard charger & increases the odds of a run by. Unless you're dealing with wind or some such factor, underestimating a coyote's hearing is mistake #1. YMMV ![[Cool]](cool.gif) Note that I'm defining Hard Charger as one that comes all the way in and not one that runs really hard to XX yards & then hangs up.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted March 10, 2010 01:36 PM
I hate to give credit to someone that makes my skin crawl, but I refuse to take credit for a good phrase turn that I agree with. Robb Krause once opined that the "louder the call,the farther away a coyote will hear it,and the quicker they will get to it".....I tend to agree with that, and I'll bet he stole that line from Professor Higgins.
Im not a "pauser", and not much for being a "changer", other than hit a pup distress or coyote death cry after hitting a coyote out of a group of multiples that run off after entering the fire fight.
I pick one sound, play it with good volumn, and let it play untill Im finished with the stand, and thus far it's worked pretty well for me for a long time.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 10, 2010 03:04 PM
Despite having 110k acres to myself, I have to hunt many of my best spots multiple times throughout the year. If I were to stick to one strategy and not deviate from that, I'd quickly condition the coyotes to what I'm up to. So, I use the e-caller as an adjunct to my hand calls and mix up all the variables as the season goes along. SOmetimes, I'll actually run the caller and call over it, too, as I was doing Sunday morning to make it sound like all hell is breaking loose.
Start out the year with rabbit distress - strictly vanilla - because I really don't need anything else. Start and stop. After a few weeks, or after hitting a spot several times, I'll maybe let it run the entire time, start introducing some new noise. One day full volume, the nest time start soft. Mix it up.
With just hand calls, you have volume, cadence and whatever sound(s) the call you have makes as variables to work with. Carry three calls instead of one and you've multiplied your repertoire by "x". Add in an e-caller and you've opened up a litany of options allowing you to hunt a spot multiple times over the course of the season and never present the same scenario or paint the same picture twice, especially when you vary the time of day from morning to mid-day to afternoon to night.
Transition from just distress early on to adding more and more vocalizations as the season progresses until, around now, when just about everything you throw out there involves a howl or whine of some type, but not because howling won't work earlier. Just, why use it when you don't need to. Keep your powder dry and hold something in reserve for the late season.
Cronk's remark is interesting about coyotes shying to continuous noise. I've had people ask me if hand calls will ever be the thing again and I tell them not to throw them away. Most guys that use an e-caller run it continuously and tend to overuse the same small group of sounds. For the past several years, they've been better at calling in coyotes. But nowadays, their overuse is causing the coyotes to burn out to the sound and delivery they offer and I'm foreseeing the uniqueness offered by a hand-tuned call in the right hands as being just different enough to pique a coyote's curiosity. There will always be a place for a decent hand call in the mouth of an experienced screamer.
Hard chargers - the guy that first taught me how to call always said it was the more aggressive coyotes that came in first. I've seen several situations where we could see the family group several hundred yards out meander about while we called, only to have junior come in first. Junior gets whacked and the rest of the group turns and saunters off like "I told you so." Who comes in is a matter of the short straw and whoever dad tells to go in thsoe cases. One thing I do go by is that Kansas studies have shown 65% of our coyotes to affiliate with their family group year-round, therefore if I see a coyote, I figure there must be about a 6 in 10 chance that he's got a buddy. Sitting there and waiting for the littermate has paid off a lot since learning that.
I'm more interested in what compels a hard charger to come in so fast, especially when the conditions are such that they really shouldn't be that hungry. Indicative of another unseen coyote nearby that the charger thinks he has to beat to the meat? More competition for the food resource in an area indicating high densities of coyotes? (Why would a coyote hurry in or howl if there's no one esle around to compete with or talk to?) Or, always hungry as hell?
If the caller is away from me, I let 'em come in fast and might turn it down to make them look for it, but most of the time, keep it running somewhat to keep their attention. If I'm calling with a hand call, I shut up as soon as I see them and will only offer something to tweak their approach if they appear to be lost, and then only by directing the call down into my shirt caller of jacket so as to muffle it considerably.
I'll shut up now....
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 10, 2010 03:09 PM
An afterthought on Cronk's remarks. I recently recorded and cleaned up some mp3's of me using my own custom calls and have been using them in the field in my caller. My buddy Kevin recognized that last weekend and asked me if that was me using one of my calls. I told him it was. He stopped. I looked back. He says, "you really are a lazy sunofabitch, aren't you?" I just laughed and told him I called for most of twenty minutes on that stand and didn't get winded or break a sweat. Sweet deal.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 10, 2010 03:32 PM
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ March 28, 2010, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 10, 2010 03:36 PM
What Vic said.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 10, 2010 03:49 PM
A P.S...
I played with what I would consider extra loud volume this year, just for the heckuvit. Since I had a new Prairie Blaster and nothing better to do... I did not see where I thought it hurt a thing, not once. But did see, more than twice, where I thought it helped. Specifically, with coyotes coming in very late. And I don't mean sneaker peakers. I mean coyotes spotted 12 minutes or more into the stand, on the full run, most or all of a mile out, that continuted to run all the way in. Had more than two or three of those this year, all while playing with what I would consider "extra" loud volume.
Can't possibly be anything more than speculation on my part, but I do speculate that at least a couple of those coyotes would not have been taken with "low" volume.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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JohnLK
Pro-Staff Great/Michigan Sector
Member # 1978
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posted March 10, 2010 05:00 PM
I only use open reed calls and tend to call fairly loud.But I also pause alot for 5-10min and don't get alot of hard chargers.It is just to hard to shoot a moving coyote with a single shot bolt pistol on a harris bipod.
[ March 10, 2010, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: JohnLK ]
Posts: 54 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 10, 2010 05:02 PM
Dave. That's a good post, right there. I agree with every bit of it including the conclusions.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted March 10, 2010 06:24 PM
Tim,
I have not used that sound. It just didn't sound good "to me" on my call for whatever reason.
I do the start and stop thing for coyotes.
If the area is wide open I crank it. If its tight I hold back at the first.
Coyote vocals I think need to be loud and proud unless I am in the deep woods. I just don't like the echo.
I have have many coyotes try to stick there head in the speaker this year with it cranked to full blast.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 10, 2010 08:04 PM
[ March 28, 2010, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted March 11, 2010 06:32 AM
Student of the month 5 years runnin,LOL!!!!!! Deepthroat!!!LOL
Go kill somethin LB!!
[ March 11, 2010, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: Randy Roede ]
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted March 11, 2010 06:43 AM
Great thread,, I often wonder if what sound one plays is as distinctive to a coyote as his abilty to hear and identify the audio or electronic characteristics of the e caller itself. Maybe a simpler way to say it is the coyote may recognize the individual ecaller more so than the individual call. We generally play loud and play continously if the terrain is big and wide open. If they can't hear it they won't come. Have seen many coyotes come right up to a loud call and others shyed from the same.
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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CatTracker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3526
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posted March 11, 2010 07:52 AM
quote:
does loud volume increase the odds that a coyote will be a hard charger?
In my experience, no.
quote:
What happens when you decrease volume when an animal is first sighted?
Generally, I don't lower my volume until they are inside 200 yards. But at the same time, I try to monitor their body language to dictate my next move.
quote:
Those of us that use pauses, do you have significantly less hard chargers?
I tend to pause more as the season progresses. I think there are several factors that determine whether or not a coyote hard charges...hunger, competition, natural aggression & fear of being shot to name a few.
quote:
Is a hard charger mostly an Alpha animal?
Interesting question; early in the season I'd say no but closer to the breeding season I have noticed bigger bodied animals...Alphas perhaps.
quote:
How many do you see that flare in, do not run to the caller and never stop? Maybe you call it "drive by"? Is this phenomena epidemic, under certain conditions?
Yes...especially on public property
quote:
Does calling from two or more locations work? "very" effective? Not at all? For instance, hand calling while using a remote electronic machine.
Very effective. One needs to be creative with high pressure coyotes.
[ March 11, 2010, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posts: 38 | From: NM | Registered: Nov 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 11, 2010 09:00 AM
Thank you, cat tracker. At least we have somebody that writes to the question, a technique that works, and something that always served me well, in school, for instance. I think he deserves a GOLD STAR for his response! Yea!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 11, 2010 11:37 AM
Leonard,
Yep, the man deserves a gold star.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 11, 2010 12:02 PM
Good deal, Rich!
Can I give one to Dan, too? You know how he is.
Thanks, LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 11, 2010 12:04 PM
What would you all suggest in the hardwoods of the northeast as far as volume is concerned?
On the one hand I believe loud volume is necessary due to the thick woods and hills we have. On the other hand, I get the feeling when a coyote gets too close to the loud call it seems unnatural to the dog, and will scare it off.
I think I was busted this way last fall while night hunting.
The one thing I tried later on in the year was keeping the distress sounds low and using vocalizations on the loud side. It hasn't worked as of yet.
What do you think?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 11, 2010 12:52 PM
I think that loud volume is seldom the reason for messing up a coyote, but it could be a good reason why you did not get a response. In other words, as has been stated here, a hooked coyote will run right into a speaker with loud volume. Then it becomes an issue as to how you handle it.
On the other hand, if you are hunting hard wood forests, and using too much volume, and not seeing animals, then you have to decide if volume is the reason, all things considered.
There are no easy answers when you have negative results. That's when flexibility and experimentation come in to play. Translation: it's all guesswork.
Listen; there are many reasons why you don't see animals, weather, low pressure barometer, wind, rain, moon phase, hunting pressure; (Foxpro saturation), poor stand selection, clumsy approach, noise, movement, etc. etc.
Until you start doing things right, and learn from it, you can't cherry pick one thing and believe that you have carefully thought out the situation, arriving at a conclusion. Experience is far and away the best teacher.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 11, 2010 01:10 PM
I hear ya...
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 11, 2010 01:46 PM
Dan Carey,
A good friend of yours has requested that I send you a special gift.------
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 11, 2010 01:53 PM
4949.
I have this belief that less volume is better when calling in the woods. If I hear the sound echoing back at me, I turn the volume down a little. I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that the echo may confuse the critter. One thing for sure though, is that sound don't carry through the woods for a very long distance, so stands need to be closer together in there.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 11, 2010 02:26 PM
Thank you Rich.
Edit: As an aside this was my first year hunting at night. I made some mistakes but learned a lot about hunting the dark side. I appreciate all the help I have received here and on the other forums.
[ March 11, 2010, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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