This is topic where he stops, or as close as possible? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 16, 2010, 03:54 PM:
I just want to know if you can be taken out of your comfort zone.
The reason I am asking is that I hunt a lot at night, and those coyotes suffer a very high percentage of bang/flops. On day stands, sometimes you have to shoot between openings, or rush the shot because of a pause where you didn't expect it, stuff like that. Many things can happen on a day stand and you will have the occasional runner.
But, at night, a lot of my coyotes get drilled with a precision shot, standing stock still and there are few spinners and runners, hardly any, in fact. And, it's because they can be stopped almost where you want them, and at that point, a careful shot produces results that are predictable and expected. It has to be that way because you don't want to wander all over the place in the dark looking for an animal that fusses and maybe moves from where you spotted him.
Are you always letting him in too close and need to shoot at a moving animal, or do you know exactly what he will do and deal with it?
So, I want you people to think about it and evaluate your expectations. Anything that you can contribute to the discussion, whatever blows your skirt up.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 16, 2010, 07:57 PM:
When I take someone new (to me) I always tell em to take the first safe shot they are confident they can make. Me, I probably let them get too close sometimes and wind up taking a shot after they are keyed up because of it. That results in a less than perfect shot at times and maybe an adrenalin rushed coyote?
I will say when multiples come in, my odds go down but I'm working on it. I have to remember back to my early bird hunting days and pick one bird/(coyote) and pick my shot.
Learning how to handle coyotes is where I could use the most help in my opinion and this should be interesting.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on May 16, 2010, 10:05 PM:
In my area, I will wait for that 75-100 yds checkup they usually do. In these fields I can see them coming from 250 yds+. They will usually stop at about 75-100 yards and check things out beore they comeon in. Most of my shots enter the chest and they drop right there. There are exceptions when they come charging, and that is usually when there is more than one. If a double or more is involved they will be racing each other. If that i happening I will take he first comfortable shot and then look for where the others are headed. For some dumb reason, they will usually stop out there at the fence and look back. That is when I take the other one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 01:35 AM:
Randy, there is a lot of talk about body language holding a clue to whether a second coyote is coming to the call, but just out of sight. The theory is that they come in along the same path.
How often do you see coyotes converge from different directions, and suddenly you need a plan? What about when locating and expecting an approach from a certain direction, but a stray shows up on your weak side? If you move to address him, what about the others expected shortly, once you are out of position; I mean, hung out to dry?
Exactly how detrimental is a shot, to any additional animals approaching the stand? I don't find them to be wary, most often, they seem rather deaf, not spooked.
What's the worst thing a hunter can do to spook an incoming coyote?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 17, 2010, 05:52 AM:
"What's the worst thing that a hunter can do to spook a coyote??"
Standing up, thinking that the stand is over has had somewhat dramatic results a couple of times in the thick stuff that I tend to call in. It becomes an OOPS......AH CRAP!! moment.
As far as the coyote showing up on my weak side; I learned a long time ago that, while predicting where the coyote will show up from is really neat & very pampas, the truth is that in my hunting spots, the coyote(s) will show up from where ever they damn well please. I set up with the rifle or (more likely) the shotgun pointed at the electro-caller 'cause that's where the coyote is headed. Works for me....your mileage may vary.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 17, 2010, 06:16 AM:
Well, I haven't shot darn near enough coyotes to play the "let see how close I can get 'em" game. That said, if I'm steady on my stix and that coyote stops with my reticle on him, I'm sending him a package of bad intentions...
Admittedly, that prolly has cost me a second coyote stragglin' in behind the 1st. But like I said, I haven't shot enough coyotes to worry about those....yet. But I'm still learnin' and can appreciate the 'art' of deciphering a coyote's body language as ideally "when" to let his air out...
Heck, I think being able to call a YOY on the approach would allow for a closer shot opportunity? Given they've prolly not yet heard a call, or had a bullet whizz past them?
What about being able to call the sex of the dog, then let it keep coming in hopes of getting it's mate to show?
Do you guys try to 'classify' your 1st customer, to better improve your shot opportunity, or chance at multiples?
If so, how does time of year factor in?
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 17, 2010, 06:17 AM:
quote:
What's the worst thing a hunter can do to spook an incoming coyote?
Aside from getting a snoot full of human scent, exposing/skylining the human form is the worst. Certain amounts of movement or odd noise(safety clicking etc) can be tollerated. Don't get me wrong, these will draw attention and create a moment that requires a decision on my part (ie killing coyote)but, the skylined exposed human form seems to always generate an about face and a rapid departure. Even on hard charging coyotes.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 17, 2010, 07:17 AM:
quote:
What about being able to call the sex of the dog, then let it keep coming in hopes of getting it's mate to show?
Do you guys try to 'classify' your 1st customer, to better improve your shot opportunity, or chance at multiples?
If so, how does time of year factor in?
No. My opinion, for what its worth. I have seen this touted on PM and other boards several times..."how to get a double etc". First off, calling your shot like some big league hitter pointing at the bleachers will soon leave one humbled. Second, my definition of a double, triple etc is multiple coyotes responding to the call together. A double/triple is not killing one coyote, then having another show up a minute or so later and killing it.
When multiples show up on a calling stand, one is usually left with a good oppurtunity to kill the most aggressive coyote first, leaving the more timid for the follow ups. Remember, in order to kill a multiple, you have to kill number one first. Number two and/or three always follow number one. To me, killing multiples has as much to do with the 'nature' of the called coyotes as it does the caller. I have seen multiples called, shoot number one , and remaining coyotes get a little nervous, but continue to work the call. I 've also had multiples respond, kill number one, and remaining coyotes dissappear almost instantly.
Another factor would be terrain. We all don't have the beautiful vistas that Reeves has in NW La. Some times cover does not provide for an easy second/third kill. Sometimes, lack of cover doesn't allow for the movement and oppurtunity I need to get a second/third kill(my previous post).
So, my opinion, there is no set formula for killing multiples. You have to be consistant at killing singles first. You have to be able to read coyotes, maintain composure, and take advantage of oppurtunities as they arrise. Multiples are nothing more than a couple singles at the same time LOL.
Maintain
P.S. My assumption would be that the use of decoy/tolling dogs would be completely different. But I have no experience in that area.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on May 17, 2010, 07:59 AM:
I usually go hunting with both a shotgun and a rifle. I don't carry both to the stand. I let the amount of cover dictate which one I take. With a shotgun, I let them get as close as possible because it makes for lots of fun. With a rifle I take the first good shot available which is usually under a 100 yards. I've taken and missed doubles. I still need to learn to concentrate on one coyote at a time when I get four or more in.
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on May 17, 2010, 08:49 AM:
Kokopelli has it right that we can't predict from which direction a coyote will arrive, but with some forethought we can do pretty well at determining where he is going, no matter which direction he comes from.
I learned to call critters as a bow hunter and needed close shots in as predictable location as possible to minimize my movement before the shot. So even in open country I would set up in a patch of thick cover and predict or set up a highly probable kill zone. It still works with a rifle. I've had coyotes approach within ten feet of my back, hover and sniff a bit, then circle to my kill zone where I shot them at 25-50 yards usually.
Bow hunting, we get a lot of approaches compared to kills, and so get to observe more than when I switched to rifle. I haven't done many multiple kills, but on some of them I have depended on coyote body language gained from observing them. Again, shooting them before they get inside that 75 yard closer circle keeps us from learning a LOT about close in behaviours and body language etc. That's not a recommendation to watch them instead of shoot them!!
When three or more coyotes approach, they often race each other to the call. My best luck has been to shoot the first one that pauses or flares out, which has usually been a farther one, not the closest. In the next one or two seconds of confusion, shoot another one, especially if it jumps aside then stops and stares at the down companion. If lucky, the third one will pause at the edge of cover before disappearing, apparently trying to assess what happened, where the others are, etc.
When two coyotes approach, often one will stop 60-100 yards out on a vantage point to watch. (My numbers reflect cover without long vistas, but the critter will usually stop within rifle range). The other coyote continues to approach, sometimes sneaking and hiding on the way. The watcher will reveal where the sneaker is, looking from call sound to his sneaking partner frequently, and sometimes directing the sneaker's approach path. As long as the watcher is facing the sound, the game continues. The sneaker keeps looking back at the watcher once in awhile. The instant the watcher changes body language to broadside or facing away, that is a signal to the closer sneaker that something is wrong and to get away from the call sound.
It would be interesting to pick Higgins’ brain on this and see how much of my observations are accurate.
IME it has been easier to get a double if I shoot the watcher, which is father out. When he drops out of sight, it confuses the closer animal for a moment and I have shot the second one as it looked confusedly back and forth from my location to where the watcher had been, looking for a signal. It all happens fast.
As to the original question however, I normally shoot the first coyote I can at the moment it gives me a shot I am confident to make. Dead singles add up faster than schemed-for doubles. I think Poor Richard or somebody like that called it a bird in the hand...
[ May 17, 2010, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 17, 2010, 10:18 AM:
Okanagan, I like the way you laid all that out and looking at it as hindsight, it makes sense.
As for Higgins, it's his fault I started letting them get so close, he said something about learning more from live coyotes than dead ones... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 10:19 AM:
quote:
Second, my definition of a double, triple etc is multiple coyotes responding to the call together. A double/triple is not killing one coyote, then having another show up a minute or so later and killing it.
(author unknown, but he knows Geordie's password)
Friends, we need to stomp out elitest attitudes like the above. What if they romp in head to tail like circus elephants, but then you mess up and kill them individually? What's that? Three singles? Come on, Tim! Oops, we don't know who it is, FOR SURE, but he talks like TA, huh?
quote:
It would be interesting to pick Higgins’ brain on this and see how much of my observations are accurate.
It's always interesting to pick his brain for accuracy.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 17, 2010, 10:38 AM:
These will be overly simple answers, but I am going to speak with generalities for the majority of coyotes I hunt. Since we all know there are exceptions to almost every scenario
1) How often do you see coyotes converge from different directions, and suddenly you need a plan?
I hunt a lot of sage and open country. However, it is very broken up. I rarely see coyotes come from polar opposite directions where I would guess they were two seperate groups. In that scenario I will usually let the coyotes dictate what I do. IF one group is aggressively coming to the call I will shut up and let them come in as close as possible before shooting. IF they both hang back I will continue to call infrequently, to minimize movement, until one commits. If I had an electronic call I would probably just let it run.
Most multiples I have called in have come in with more caution when they are together. Each will get a little closer look to see what the other is doing, etc. When I like where both coyotes are currently standing I will shoot the closest and move to the next.
When I have multiples coming in the same path at different times they usually do not give me clues that another coyote is in the area.
2) What about when locating and expecting an approach from a certain direction, but a stray shows up on your weak side? If you move to address him, what about the others expected shortly, once you are out of position; I mean, hung out to dry?
A bird in the hand to me. Okanagan put it perfectly.
3) Exactly how detrimental is a shot, to any additional animals approaching the stand? I don't find them to be wary, most often, they seem rather deaf, not spooked.
I mostly agree with this. However, if you get a spinner or a miss and the coyote you were shooting at reacts dramatically, like bolting and running, then I usually see all the others running off too.
4) What's the worst thing a hunter can do to spook an incoming coyote?
Move when the coyote is looking at you.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 10:54 AM:
quote:
These will be overly simple answers
Perfect! We love overly simple answers on HM.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on May 17, 2010, 12:16 PM:
Leonard, I am not sure any of my experiences and advice apply to others but here goes. Untill I began traveling to hunt coyotes, I did not realize how good I have it here. These are non-pressured coyotes. They do not respond typical of the ones I have seen in pressured states such as but not limited to AZ. The only call they have heard has been mine and I try to make a habit of not calling him again after that, for he is uaually dead. In the times that I have had one get away unscathed (multiples) I can go back to the same area and call that coyote back within the week and finish the game. Two times come to mind when I have called in and killed a three legged coyote that was made that way the week before.
quote:
Randy, there is a lot of talk about body language holding a clue to whether a second coyote is coming to the call, but just out of sight. The theory is that they come in along the same path.
I hunt open pasture lands, bordered by drainage canals and bayous. Due to the lay of the borders and woodlots, I can usually tell where the coyote will be coming from. I have seen on more than one occassion a lone coyote come out and look back. A second one never shows. It is my observation his look back is merely to gauge his exposure. Here is an example. This is my son filming and his best friend in on leave from Iraq. The friend is the shooter and literally does not see the coyote till just before the shot. At the 1;30 mark the coyote will look back. I feel this was due to exposure on his part and he was looking to see just how far he had to go if things went south.
quote:
How often do you see coyotes converge from different directions, and suddenly you need a plan? What about when locating and expecting an approach from a certain direction, but a stray shows up on your weak side? If you move to address him, what about the others expected shortly, once you are out of position; I mean, hung out to dry?
Several times per year. I get on the one that would require minimal movement. I stay on that one till I have either ran it off or killed it. I feel one sure things is better than two possibles.
quote:
Exactly how detrimental is a shot, to any additional animals approaching the stand? I don't find them to be wary, most often, they seem rather deaf, not spooked.
I have found with coyotes and even with deer, in this area, on the lands I hunt, the shot only bothers the animal I am pointed at 90% of the time. There are occassions when a shot will run off the non intended target but not often.
The worst things a hunter can do in this order.
1-Let him smell you 50%
2-Let him see your movement 50%
3-Let him hear you 50%
Even that is on a sliding scale. Again my area is unique. These coyotes smell, see and hear humans every day of their lives.
I have often referred to it this way. If he smells me after I have seen him, I stand a 50% chance of killing him. Likewise for the seeing or hearing.
If he gets all three of those senses alerted, He survives. With only one sense alerted, he may seek confirmation with another of his senses. If he gets two alerted he don't give a rats ass about the last one, he is gone.
Dont let him hear you coming in, dont let him smell you sitting there and don't let him see you preparing to shoot him, you stand a good chance of killing him.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 17, 2010, 12:20 PM:
Sheesh LB, whats the deal? Right off the bat you go and start with the innuendoes. For crying out loud. I could understand had a made a comment regarding harvesting cabbage, or recovering prunes….but I didn’t. LOL
I will attempt to clarify my statements. On many of the other boards, there is usually a thread starting out with ‘My first double’, or ‘Finally scored a triple’. The story unfolds only to reveal the author made a stand, killed a coyote, kept calling and a few minutes later killed another etc. Thus, the author handled ONE coyote at a time, as apposed to handling more than one like in the circus string you described.
Another analogy would be that of shooting doubles in sporting clays. First you have a follow up double, where one clay is thrown, and as soon as another clay can be loaded, it is thrown also. The shooter deals with one clay at a time in the sight picture, knowing the second will more than likely follow the path of the first. The second is the report double; very similar to the follow up, just a little faster with the second coming on the report of the first shot. The true double comes when two clays are thrown at the same time, and the shooter must deal with two targets in the picture at the same time.
Anyway, semantics for sure. But it seems relevant. At least you didn’t start out calling me amigo.
Maintain
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on May 17, 2010, 12:40 PM:
I thought I was through with possible the longest post I have ever made here but a thought hit me as I was loading some equipment in the sun.
The number one thing that will ruin a stand for me is sitting in a sunny spot. If the sun is shining find a shadow. I will sit 15 feet from a tree in 4 inch grass if there is a shadow from the tree branches to get me in a shady spot.
So the answer to the question of what is the worst thing to do on a stand. In my opinion, it will be to let the sun shine on me while sitting there.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 01:38 PM:
quote:
Sheesh LB, whats the deal?
Quiet whinning! Amigo!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 01:39 PM:
Randy, that coyote took a long time dying. What was he shot with?
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS, wish we had "cover" like that!
[ May 17, 2010, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 17, 2010, 01:49 PM:
I am with G, If four show up together on a stand and you put them on the ground, you killed a true quad.
If they came in a minute or two apart - you killed 4 on one stand.
almost as bad as going songdog hunting...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 02:13 PM:
quote:
I am with G
Look, Amigo! That sort of inflexibility is what killed the dinosaur!
Parsing the difference between a "triple" and three on one stand must be Okie talk, or something? Good thing you guys use machineguns. I guess I'm still bush league; the only thing that counts is how many dead critters get thrown in the truck at the end of a stand.
ELITIST OKIES! Never heard of such a thing!
Boy Howdy!
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 17, 2010, 02:17 PM:
cool...hows Rocky
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 17, 2010, 02:28 PM:
Ok ! just for clarification lets say Im sitting on an elevated position, The caller starts and I see three coyotes or (songdogs as Kelly calls em)coming my way they are a long ways off coming from the samee general direction. Three minutes later no.1 shows hisself bang He's down, Two minnutes later no. 2 enters the picture, bang and likwise is that not a double. Just wonderin?
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 17, 2010, 03:05 PM:
quote:
Two minnutes later no. 2 enters the picture
Paul, you can call it whatever you want, but uhhhh....no. LOL
quote:
Quiet whinning! Amigo!
WTF? No whinning here. Just trying to maintain the Clark Kent personna....I would hate to get the reputation of being hard to get along with.
Hey Kelly, don't weakin! Atleast he is capitalizing 'Okie' now. LOL
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 17, 2010, 03:13 PM:
It must drift over the boarder. I fallin in lockstep with the Okies. If three come in single, then you killed three singles. If three come in together. Then you killed a triple.
Same works for doubles. Just subtract one.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 17, 2010, 03:28 PM:
OK I just got out of the back room where Lonny was about to shut this thread down.
The ruling is, if you kill two or more on a stand and they didn’t show up together, it is a California Double, Triple and so on.
[ May 17, 2010, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 17, 2010, 03:36 PM:
ROTFLMFAO
A California double, triple, ect....
Thats what we will call em from now on. If they got a white tip on their tail, you get a two pointer, so does it double the score so if you got a Cali Double, its a Cali Quad?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 17, 2010, 03:42 PM:
Maybe we, the elitists that we are, should think big and consider these multiple Andy describes exponentially... 2 come in, 2 more come in, that would be a double squared (four). Then, next stand, two come in while a triple approaches from the other direction. You called five, but by our calculations, you got two to the third power, or actually,... eight! A Cali Octodog!!!
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on May 17, 2010, 03:57 PM:
220 swift with a 53 grain SMK
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 17, 2010, 03:59 PM:
Its okay Cross J Im just gettin the rules straight in case we play marbles or sumthin at the next campout!
When the game starts will we hear someone shout out its okie rules. Or Cajun rules ect.
LOL
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 17, 2010, 04:04 PM:
"Are you always letting him in too close and need to shoot at a moving animal, or do you know exactly what he will do and deal with it?"
Is there such a thing as "too close"? Yeah, I know a lot of you snipers like to not let them get within a half-mile before you snuff their lights out. Hell, the only time I've ever seen Quinton sweat was when coyotes got inside 80 yards or so. By then, his voice is two octaves higher and he's starting to panic like certain attack is eminent.
I like them in close, say 40-60 yards. Just the way I roll. Mostly just to immerse myself completely in the sense of self satisfaction that comes from being able to discern their pupils and hopefully get that "oh shit" look. Enhances the rush for me. I've even had about a half-dozen run over me or otherwise make physical contact when doing the fly by. Now that's a rush. LOL
One of the funnest things in all of coyote hunting is to be sitting next to someone new to the sport and have one coming in, head down, eyes boring right through you while you sit there telling the newb, "Sit tight. Not yet. Don't move, Ready,... Ready,... NOW!" when the coyote is about ten yards away. They shoot and crap their pants all at the same time. LOL
Seriously, I've hunted my areas for so long that the coyotes tend to use the same approach routes year after year after year, likely due to cow and deer trails, topography, fence lines and the like. Being able to call where they'll appear looks a lot more impressive than it really is since, when you've seen coyotes appear at the same break in the tree line where two trails intersect coming from the cover over the hill, like, 99% of the time, it's pretty easy to tell your newb "Keep you eyes right THERE." Can't do it every time, but do it often enough to impress the crap out of people that have never hunted with me before. Kevin and Matt have both just gotten into the habit of asking me where to look when we first sit down. They don't miss much.
I'm also blessed with an area to hunt where the coyotes tend to be predictably found in pockets of cover surrounded by open fields that no coyote would ever be in. Between calling them for the past 35 years and chasing them with greyhounds for most of eight years prior to that, sometimes overlapping the two, I've got a pretty good feel for where my coyotes lay and where it just ain't worth looking. In any event, I know where they're likely to be and try to set myself up with a cut, fold, ditch or drainage between me and there, within the kill zone, so that I can build an opportunity into the stand for me to raise my rifle when they go out of sight momentarily. I try to get the rifle up and the crosshairs on target ASAP so that the profile of the gun they see while approaching is along the axis of the gun, then let them come as close as they're willing to come. I've shot coyotes at 3 yards doing that. Point and kill. Back splash. I'm as impressed by how close a shot was as by how far, I guess.
Finally, the greatest mistake you can make is movement when you shouldn't be. I've always been amazed at how close I can get coyote to me by simply sitting still. This past Fall, I was sitting against a clump of grass about a foot shorter than me. My outline was obvious. The caller was about thrity yards in front of me in the open when a big coyote stepped out of the tall grass ten yards to my left. I was downwind of the caller and he seriously wanted to walk through where I was sitting. He stood there for about five seconds just looking at me before turning away from me and loping toward the caller. I had to wait for him to get out a bit so I could shoot him.
The same morning, I had one come in and I was laying alongside a row of roundbales on a mowed hay meadow, aka, NO cover. The coyote walked past me not fifteen feet away, ignoring me completely. Had I moved, both of them would have bolted. At the same time, when that close to a coyote, you do everything you can to NOT make eye contact. Once they lock onto your eyes, all hell breaks loose. I simply lifted the butt end of my rifle, looked down the side of the barrel and when she walked in line, shot her in the side. Didn't even need the scope. LOL
[ May 17, 2010, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 17, 2010, 05:40 PM:
"Is there such a thing as 'too close'??"
Well................
When the shot cup ends up laying next to the coyote, it was 'close'.
When you get a pass thru with the shot cup, it was 'too close'.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 05:40 PM:
I believe it is more better to call these multiples an "Okie Double" or a "Missouri Triple", which, in theory, will never happen anyway?
I set up once in a semicircle of mesquite with a wide vista, only I couldn't actually see right directly in front of me because of the slope, but who cares about that, anything approaching from Mexico would be dead meat at 100, 200, or even 300 yards.
So, what happened is that a coyote came from the side, because he sure as hell didn't approach from the direction I expected! (so much for that theory) He came in from the side below me and I didn't see him at all until he hopped up on the same level, a distance of, five feet, give or take a few inches.
He stopped dead still and just stared at me. I didn't know what to do, so I mounted the rifle in extreme slow motion, and he never moved. I did look through the scope but couldn't see anything, which is what I decided meant that he was blocking my field of view and yanked the trigger. Bang/flop. Routine kill.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 17, 2010, 05:53 PM:
As far as day calling goes,I guess you could say I'm more like Q than you Lance,once they start getting to damn close I start to get a little to jumpy,and rush a shot.lol ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
For me I think I feel more comfortable taking a 200 yard shot than I do a 30 yard shot,they're just to damn unpredictable inside 50 yards.lol ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I think if I had a choice it would be the 80-200 yards range for me.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on May 17, 2010, 06:54 PM:
Mainly due to the way I setup and the terrain I hunt. When I see them I stop them and shoot. I don’t do a lot of calling on stand and by using the wind and terrain features I have a good chance of knowing where the coyote will show up. The only problem is that if I don’t stop the coyote right away it will hit my wind. I have tried to do things different but it just don’t work as good around here.I do have some open areas where I can see out 500yds and if they do come out that far away and my wind is not going to hit them I will let them come to about to 150yds or so.Iam using hand calls not a remote caller.
[ May 17, 2010, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: JohnLK ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 17, 2010, 07:13 PM:
"What's the worst thing a coyote hunter could do...?"
Be me.
Krusty 
Edit: I used to be able to post smilies, expertly... college is making me stupider.
[ May 17, 2010, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Inoculation (Member # 2229) on May 17, 2010, 09:07 PM:
Well do I have to abide by the "California" rule? I agree with the Okies on this one, but my family goes way back in OK so I guess that makes sense LOL!
We called in 2 quintuples this last season and on both we only got 3 of them (each time)for 2 triples. On both groups the last 2 stayed way out near the 100yd mark, but the first 3 came all the way in to 15yds or less.
I also shot 3 coyotes and a bobcat on 1 stand, but it took almost 15 minutes. The first 2 where a double, then a single cat and a single coyote. It was definitely not a quad.
[ May 18, 2010, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Inoculation ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2010, 09:29 PM:
Abiding by Okies (they are cute when they are little) definition of quads and triples is too complicated without Randy, Ellen and Simon making the judgement. Way too nebulous. I can tell you that in some places, like where the sage or greasewood is too thick, you can't even be sure how many are lurking out there? I once set up in a mesquite wash that had coyotes behind every bush, killed three and missed four. What would an Okie call that? UNWORKABLE, that's what.
Good hunting. LB
I missed because my bullets were hitting twigs between me and the coyotes. I had to imagine the trajectory versus line of sight, and shoot for a body part where I had a clear view. Not easy to do.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 17, 2010, 11:07 PM:
No shit Leonard.I've called in some of that thick sage brush too,and my gawd thats frustrating when the coyotes are running everywhere but all ya get is glimpses and flashes of fur as they run by,and ya don't know which one to shoot.lol Had one stand like that just this last fall.Five come flying in and got one. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 18, 2010, 12:36 AM:
So now we can have Okies getting California Doubles with Texas Heart Shots???
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 18, 2010, 04:58 AM:
I didn't think it possible to consistently judge a coyote's age or sex on the fly. But maybe on occasion, it could be done & used to the hunter's advantage? With the wizards here, I figured I'd ask...
Maybe it's the larger size of the coyotes in my AO, but if a pair comes in, I can pretty much tell the male from the female. If terrain allows me a nice show of their approach, that is. A big male can easily have 10-15 lbs. of body weight on the female, so picking him out is kinda like picking out a gobbler from a couple of hens...
But usually here in NY, I see a coyote & shoot it ASAP and do so even if I see another coyote behind it. Reason is I just don't get enough opportunities to kill them here, so I'm usually shooting at the first chance I get. As was mentioned before, "a bird in hand"...
b.t.w...Kelly, you coulda told me I shot a "Cali-triple" with you that day ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
. The official Okie Ruling wouldn't have mattered one bit ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2010, 05:45 AM:
"I can tell you that in some places, like where the sage or greasewood is too thick, you can't even be sure how many are lurking out there? I once set up in a mesquite wash that had coyotes behind every bush, killed three and missed four. What would an Okie call that? UNWORKABLE, that's what."
Na ElBee, we call it hunting in the cedars. Dang things are taking over here and that's where the machine gun comes in.
We made a stand last Febuary after hearing a group howl, I set the caller between me and my cousin in a small branch (creek). The cedars were thick here but there was a small opening on each side of the branch, about a 50 yard area on both sides. I howled with my power howler and in a minute or two, I turned on secret sound. Four coyotes came in on my side, two in the lead that I let go to my cousin's side. The other two one held back in the cedars and the other one was creeping in. I shot him when the other two cleared, cuzz shot one of his and immediately the other two vanished.
How would ya'll have handled the situation?
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 18, 2010, 07:05 AM:
Tom - two out of four in tight cover sounds good to me. I tried the secret sound a few times last season and I think I only killed one pair using it.
Fred - I was not going to say anything to take away from your excitment. That was some good shootin on that stand.
Stay after them
Kelly
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2010, 07:52 AM:
SECRET SOUND?
We have many ways to make you talk, and if that don't work, we can send Geordie over to knock the crap out of ya. He's big enough (with a mean temper) to scare JohnHenry. You don't want that!
Hey! Let's call two coyutes killed in Oklahoma, arm in arm, cheek to cheek like Peter Cottontail, hopping down the bunny trail......an "Okie Dokie" for short!
Good hunting. LB
edit: and by the way, Geordie thinks I'm the funniest guy on the Internet.
edit: two cuyotes with one bullet would be a "Super Okie Dokie"
[ May 18, 2010, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2010, 08:28 AM:
An "okie dokie" I like it ElBee.
So how bout we call a single coyote shot twice a "cali tally"?
I thought everyone knew what the secret sound was. It's a long story but my cuzz told a friend of ours what it was and before long, it was the unoficial OPHA sound.
It's JS canine pups, please don't send Geordie after me, Lonny and Andy were tuff enough last time.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 18, 2010, 11:38 AM:
LB, Don't lets these damn okies change the rules. Remember, this is YOUR board. If my butt doesn't move from one spot and I shoot three coyotes then it is a triple. To hell with the okies and Vic !
And if you don't like it, read my Sig line!
[ May 18, 2010, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 18, 2010, 11:40 AM:
Okie Dokie! Now thats funny right there....
I don't care who you are.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2010, 12:14 PM:
There you go. Top that, ya bunch of wannabes.
How about a Okie Lady Dokie and a Okie Alpha Beta Dokie, etc. We would need a statistician to keep track of all the sub catagories!
I say again, Cal's def. is the simpliest and that's what it's gonna be! Screw this democracy shit.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 18, 2010, 12:25 PM:
dam Cal, we about had him whipped down...
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2010, 01:12 PM:
Hey Cal did it with a bow so he can call it what he wants but the rest of us mere mortals with rifles need em side by side to count.
I don't know though, Cal did it in texas and behind locked gates... does that count?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 18, 2010, 02:12 PM:
Innoculation said:
quote:
we only got 3 of them (each time)for 2 triples
By my system, you got nine coyotes (three squared). Good job. Maybe we can call that an Okie Clusterf*ck. Maybe not.
I forgot all about Cal's bow triple. Not a name for that. If'n I saw it, I'd just say, "Holy shit!"
As far as sexing a coyote on the run, if there's a pair and you're looking at one of each and the male-r of the two is mature, you can tell. If not, you either have to have some danged good eyeballs, or a very well-hung coyote. And, at that range, he'd be obvious by all the tripping over his pecker that he'd be doing running in. I know that running all out and tripping over my pecker makes me tend to slow down some. So, if you're after him, take the one in the back. I'm just saying...
[ May 18, 2010, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2010, 03:17 PM:
I have seen them trip and somersault racing to the bullet. Didn't lose a step, either.
Also, clear this up for me. If you have what began as a legit Okie Dokie, but the second one was a Texas Heart Shot, does that count as two singles. or no? Okies, don't answer, this is a question for regular people....if you don't mind?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2010, 04:13 PM:
That's kinda like the teacher telling the smart kids to not answer isn't it. Trying to let the slow folks get a chance, I see.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 18, 2010, 04:19 PM:
'Okie Dokies', 'Super Okie Dokies'. This is starting to sound like a value menu at a Sonic drive in.
quote:
I don't know though, Cal did it in texas and behind locked gates... does that count?
Hmmm, Tom makes a valid point here. Three coyotes with a bow, and one ass print in the sand is just another day in Texas isn't it?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2010, 05:01 PM:
An Okie Dokie needs to have three eye witnesses to be valid. I just made that up.
Send your objections to Tom64, Moderator of The AR/Close Encounters Forum. Attn:Complaint Department Thank you! LB
edit: From now on, he will also handle all racial complaints from lurkers and PMS members. Please go to the Close Encounters Forum for all that stuff. Thanks!
edit: Get to work, Tom, free ride's over!
[ May 18, 2010, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 18, 2010, 05:07 PM:
still an okie dokey - the proper classification is based upon the nature of their approach, IMO.
What do I win?!?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 18, 2010, 05:33 PM:
If you call two or more, and fire three or more times and still don't connect, do we call that an Okie chokey?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2010, 05:54 PM:
quote:
the nature of their approach, IMO.
Rediculous! Next we will have an Okie finedokie swamp double in Florida, or anywhere close to Florida.
Forget it! Cal says it's my Board and I make the rules. Any triple with a machinegun don't count, either.
If you don't like it, see the Complaint Department. Tom is as mean and unsympathetic as only an Okie can be.
Thanks again, LB
edit: another thing, this PMS lurking has got to stop! I don't waste my time reading their drivel and they have a lot of nerve getting tips and ideas over here. Get lost, ya wannabes! Hi Berry!
[ May 18, 2010, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 18, 2010, 06:31 PM:
Yeah any triple with a machine gun should definitely be disqualified.
Like shootin fish in a barrel.lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 18, 2010, 06:57 PM:
They have to be coming "together" there is a difference between two singles and a double locked gates texas to canada rules still apply unless you are an okie apparently ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Or the master himself (Leonard of course) he can do what ever he damn well pleases in my eyes
I know i haven't been posting lately but what is with the status WTF a guys leaves for awhile and he gets casturated in front of everyone!
Edited for that last part
[ May 18, 2010, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: nd coyote killer ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2010, 07:48 PM:
I have to say as head of the complaint dept, my Okie Dokies will count with a machine gun, I mean if Cal can count one with a bow in Texas of all places and behind locked gates, my machine gun will to.
Oh and I might as well let Kelly fall in there too.
It's official!
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 18, 2010, 08:00 PM:
Ok, my approach is simple. If the coyote gives me a shot I think I can make, unless its over 100 yards and I dont think he will come closer, I shoot. That is unless Im using a shotgun, of course.
If the coyote is over 100 yards, then watching body language comes into play. Even if its over 200, if he dont look like hes coming on in and I feel comfortable and steady, shoot.
And, I wanna request. Ive changed my mind. You Okies are alright. Can I be an honerary Okie?
Posted by Inoculation (Member # 2229) on May 18, 2010, 08:19 PM:
Innoculation said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
we only got 3 of them (each time)for 2 triples
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By my system, you got nine coyotes (three squared). Good job. Maybe we can call that an Okie Clusterf*ck. Maybe not.
I forgot all about Cal's bow triple. Not a name for that. If'n I saw it, I'd just say, "Holy shit!"
As far as sexing a coyote on the run, if there's a pair and you're looking at one of each and the male-r of the two is mature, you can tell. If not, you either have to have some danged good eyeballs, or a very well-hung coyote. And, at that range, he'd be obvious by all the tripping over his pecker that he'd be doing running in. I know that running all out and tripping over my pecker makes me tend to slow down some. So, if you're after him, take the one in the back. I'm just saying...
True Lance,
I just went back and read my post. It was 2 quintuples and 6 of them down (three each stand) for 2 true triples.
And I rarely am looking at the coyotes genitalia as they come in. I just shoot them and lift the leg
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 18, 2010, 08:27 PM:
If you call two or more, and fire three or more times and still don't connect, do we call that an Okie chokey?
I like that one Lance.
You dang right okie dokies, trips and quads count with a machine gun....thats why I carry one.
Rock on Tom.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2010, 08:32 PM:
Sounds okay to me Andy, just remember we've let plenty of Kalifornians across the border (for a fee) but that don't make em Okies!
But if Uncle ElBee gets serious about moving, I couldn't think of a better canadate to be an Okie.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2010, 08:37 PM:
Kelly, remember the sighting in target at the campout, created by Geordie and AR Shaw? Just start in low and walk it in and that's close enough. Like hand grenades. Hell ya! Keep after them!
Good hunting. LB
edit: Man! Now I've heard everything...An Honorary Okie! Wait 'til my kids hear this!
[ May 18, 2010, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 18, 2010, 08:53 PM:
Come on over Andy.
Tom, looks like the start of another land rush.
And speaking of that target, what ever happened to George Ackley?
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 18, 2010, 08:55 PM:
LB how could I forget....here is Shaw about to dump a mag.
that pic just don't get old...
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on May 18, 2010, 09:14 PM:
How many seconds can elapse between approaching coyotes before it does not count as an Okie double any more?
The Rules Committee will have to decide. Also, how many yards between the coyotes is too much to count as an Okie double? If one is trailing the other by ten yards it is a double I'm pretty sure. But if one is trailing by 60 yards, 100 yards? Is it not a double or pair anymore but merely two singles in close proximity?
Each stand needs a referee, with a stop watch.
PS Yep, that is a classic photo of Shaw!
[ May 18, 2010, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2010, 10:38 PM:
It don't get old! Good pic of the peanut butter man.
Hey, I made him his first fried SPAM sandwich down in Texas, when we ran out of beans. I think he was surprised how good they are. Maybe I converted him from disgusted wanting no part of it, to admitting it wasn't half bad.
But seriously, I couldn't believe the size of that peanut butter jar he bought, but we sure needed it, 'cause he sure likes his peanut butter!
Great trip, I enjoyed it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on May 18, 2010, 11:26 PM:
I guess I've been too preoccupied with worry this Steve fella might kick my ass! I have completely missed this post!
Since I still own the house in Oklahoma that I was brought home to as a new born I think I qualify as an Okie... even if I do live in Illinois now. I've never killed a coyote in Oklahoma though... that may disqualify me.
I have shot a double with a bolt gun, both within 30ft. Don't need a machine gun if you have quick hands!
How do I pick which coyote to shoot when more than one comes at the same time? It's like shooting at a flushed covey of quail... you pick an opportune target and lock on, fire, watch it drop and move to the next opportune target!
So simple... even an Okie can do it!
Nikonut
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2010, 03:14 AM:
You should be worried! He does not sound like the type to make idle threats. You could try begging for mercy? That's what I'd do. Your reason(s) for not spilling the beans is kinda hard to understand, even for a recovering Okie. Talk to Uncle Tom down in Close Encounters, then go forth and sin no more.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2010, 09:02 AM:
Got another email from crystalriversteve. Nothing important, I won't bore the membership. He splains exactly where he will be for the big slapdown. I'm going to charge admission.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 19, 2010, 02:42 PM:
Speaking of Randy and PMS.I just went over to lurk over there and on the Optics Forum they're talking about Nightforce reviews and some experts feel you need Turrets out west and all that bullshit yada yada yada.And Randy said for calling conditions they aren't needed which I totally agree BTW.But some of those western experts sure think you need them,got me to thinking,maybe I've just been lucky all these years killing coyotes and hunting in Utah,Nevada,and Wyoming and not using Turrets.It sure sounds like I'm missing the boat.lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 19, 2010, 04:04 PM:
I am sure everyone of them is putting up there fur too. Maybe someone can chime in with the obvious, "Who the hell wants to walk out there 500 yards, which is getting into turret range, to pick up a stinky coyote?"
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 19, 2010, 04:15 PM:
Yeah and like 99% of the coyotes I shoot while calling are 0-300 yards even out here in the wide open West.
And with a flat shooting rifle you damn near hold on fur all the way out to that range(300 yards).So for me, turrets seem like a waste of time for the 1% that are out past that.IMO But to each is own....
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 19, 2010, 04:34 PM:
Why not have the capabilities to kill the other 1%? Lets face it most guys are out there to put up a big number for the day/weekend. Why limit yourself? I had a BDC reticle made for my scope and it has saved my ass plenty. If you want to limit yourself why not hunt with a shotgun or bow only.
Talk to Cal he will be doing it with a buck knife and killing triples in TX next year.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 19, 2010, 04:50 PM:
Limit myself my ass..So say I kill 99 coyotes in a season,I should beat myself up that I didn't kill that 100th coyote if only I had just had Turrets on my scope....Please. lol
And I'm talking Turrets,not Ballistic plex type crosshairs.
Good Hunting Chad
[ May 19, 2010, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 19, 2010, 06:37 PM:
Don't beat yourself up over it just be capable of killing it instead of telling everyone about the "other one" you called in that day. BDC knobs by Leupold aren't a reticle I mispoke in that last post they put the yardage on your elevation knob (turret) specified for your specific rifle and load. It's the cats meow and I recommend it to everyone.
Going into the field limiting yourself to 300yds unless you are hunting in shotgun terrain IS "limiting" yourself. I'm not saying everyone should be capable and have the equipment to hit 9 out of 10 at 1000yds but 300yds and under gives up a lot of coyotes in open country.
Everyone is there own but why not give yourself the best oppurtunity to "kill em all"
[ May 19, 2010, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: nd coyote killer ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 19, 2010, 07:49 PM:
Yeah I know,I know,I have seen where alot of guys over on PMS are consistantly killing coyotes at 1000 yards all the time...lol Yeah right...I think it's bullshit for the most part..
To many variables to do it all the time,for such a limited amount of time that you take those kind of shots.But whatever. Kill em all if you must.lol
For me,400 yards is a hell of a shot on a coyote and would be about as far as I would try. And I know about where my rifle shoots out to that range(about 13 inches low)and if I had to I could compensate for that with my plain ol crosshair.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 19, 2010, 08:01 PM:
300 yards would be a poke for me, I seldom take a shot approaching that distance but maybe twice a year, and most times, wonder why I even tried it.
Ive said it before many times, I hunt southern Arizona, and many places I hunt I could blindfold some of the Wy guys,and when we got on stand, and you take of the blinder, you would swear you were home. In these places, I still call coyotes from as far away as you can see them, to 40 yards in front of the gun.
I would imagine 90% of the coyotes I call and kill are between 30-80 yards, I shoot at very few past the 100 yard mark, and don't really care to.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 19, 2010, 08:22 PM:
Oh don't get me wrong i carry a shotgun on stand in fall and winter and want the coyotes as CLOSE as possible and the highest percentage of the coyotes shot are in that 30-150yds but terrain, conditions, missed shots, multiples hanging up after the first is dusted ect ect make for a fair number of shots that are 300-500yds and those coyotes need to make it to the back of the pickup.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 19, 2010, 08:37 PM:
I fell into the turret trap last year. Had an elevation M1 turret put on my 3.5-10 for my 243AI, the longest shot I had was 315 yards. I held into the wind and head high, striking him in the upper chest as he sat on his haunches looking for me, while his partner came in to get the rabbit. It was neat watching him tip over in the scope.
After the fact I thought about how rare the shot was for ME and the fact that even the Boone and Crockett reticle on another scope would do better for MY type of hunting. It (the B&C reticle) just happens to match my 77gr 223 load pretty well and now sits on my AR. I just don't shoot that far to need anything more.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 19, 2010, 08:48 PM:
That's another thing I don't mess with is a shotgun.To much shit to pack out there for the CHANCE you may need it.
Sure there is that chance but as often as it would come in handy,it's just not worth it to me.
Am I missing opportunities on coyotes by not shooting a shotgun,or using Turrets on my scope?maybe,maybe not I still manage to kill quite a few coyotes every season with just my good ol rifle and 3x10 plain jane cross haired scope.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 19, 2010, 09:27 PM:
Nothing wrong with the KISS method as long as you don't whine about the ones that get away.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 20, 2010, 06:34 AM:
10 yards to 150 will get most of the coyotes.
Anything passed 300 (on a broadside coyote) is a crap shoot for me.
I like the B&C ret. also Tom.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 20, 2010, 07:33 AM:
I have been playing with custom turrets on several rifles. It all comes down to need. On occasion I really need a certain coyote. The nice thing about turrets is that you don't have to use them. I still sight my rifle in dead on at 200 and 90% or more coyotes fit into that category or less. Don't even think about the turret. But if one hangs up out there a ways and I really NEED to kill him, I range him, dial it, and generally kill him. Even a 400 yard coyote is easier to kill with a dead on hold than with Kentucky windage and elevation. If I was still doing some western contest hunts I would say a turret would help in that situation also. May only gain you a coyote or two, but sometimes that could make all the difference. I used the Burris ballistic reticle for several years and it really helped out, but the turret is far more accurate for actual yardage. Especially the custom turrets with yardage marks for a particular rifle. No counting clicks, just dial the yardage and fire. But mine and ND's situation are unique and there are times when you have spent a few days chasing a certain coyote and you get one chance at extended yardage and really need to make it count. And we have the country that requires it. If I were in certain other parts of the country a turret on a big scope and a hot rod caliber just aren't necessary and would be downright foolish. I'd be packing a 6 lb ultra light rifle with a 20 inch barrel and a 2 to 6X scope if I could get away with it.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 20, 2010, 08:26 AM:
Like Tom, I also fell into the turret trap and had the Leupold CDS elevation turret added to my 3.5-10. Did I really need this for the calling I do? Mostly not. But it is simple and has proven to be repeatable and if nothing else, it got me shooting more at longer ranges and it sure is nice to plant the crosshairs right where you want to hit rather than on air.
In my opinion, turrets on a coyote rifle are a lot like custom barrels and high dollar glass on the same, probably not needed 98% of the time for the average caller. But sure can't hurt anything either. At least the technology is there if a guy wants to use it.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 20, 2010, 11:56 AM:
I agree with Lonnie.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 20, 2010, 02:33 PM:
Custom rifles and high end glass is nice if you have the expendable income or shooting and custom loads are a passion.
For some like Cal and Scott H. it is a tool of the trade and needed for that one chance at the right coyote.
But for me a 1/2 " group is very good I reload because I enjoy it and get better more consistant loads and better shooting to a point.
I am in agreement with Vic on this one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2010, 02:47 PM:
I'm getting suspicious! Every time Lone Howl makes a post, there's Lonny. Every time Lonny makes a post, Lone Howl soon follows. I mean, sure, it's legal, and all but something ain't right! Spooooky!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 20, 2010, 03:38 PM:
And they registered at the same time....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2010, 04:17 PM:
Yeah, you see it too? I'm just wondering if these are two people, or not? Or, just very good friends, if you know what I mean?
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 20, 2010, 05:40 PM:
Well hell... It looks like the jig is finally up for us LH. We've been figured out and might as well come clean. Living this lie is getting to be more of a burden each day and I'm ready for it to end.
One thing is for sure, if LH and I go down there are a bunch of you guys coming with us! Too many times I've seen Andy and TA in the same thread to think that it's more than just a coincidence. Same with all the guys from Oklahoma... Not for a second do I believe Tom, Kelly, Geordie, and Brad are actually different people.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 20, 2010, 07:30 PM:
umm...I agree with Lonnie.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2010, 07:38 PM:
Confession is good for the soul.
Now, those other guys. Really? I can't believe it!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 20, 2010, 08:33 PM:
Oh ya, it's a common knowledge that Andy and TA are one and the same.
But all us Okies are different, hey that don't sound right...
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on May 20, 2010, 09:31 PM:
I am with G too.. And California doubles/triples my ass... Anyone with reasonable shooting skills and calm, can pick off three-four Coyotes at one minute intervals. Doubles, Triples, Quads, are Coyotes that arrive at the same time and die at the same time. It takes good management and some luck to make the triples/quads. Myself, If I have a double come in and I fail to kill both of them, I consider that a failure.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on May 20, 2010, 09:34 PM:
Forgot to mention, that's with bolt gun.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 21, 2010, 05:00 AM:
Regarding the 'Nightforce' thread...
The fact that a hunting situation where turrets can be of value are RARE cannot be overstated. It's just one of those deals where guys (such as myself) like to talk about that kinda stuff...
Some hunters use their rifles & scopes as a means to an end, so to speak. Other hunters take their gear selection a step farther than that 'Machiavellian' role. Doesn't make one hunter right or wrong, just makes them different...
Investing in top notch equipment is not always about having 'disposable income' at the ready. Some guys (like me) might just like to shoot more than the next guy, therefore pursue the hobby with more vigor and spend more on high quality gear. Heck, I eat PB&J sandwiches for lunch every day and cook the venison I killed last season 3 & 4X a week for dinner so I can spend my $$$ on the things I really "need"
And regarding BDC knobs, I can't see how spinning a BDC knob is any different than spinning a MOA or mrad turret? IF anything, the BDC knobs limit the shooter to one rifle & load at one set of conditions. Given the fact that I travel to hunt quite a bit and move scopes around on rifles, BDC knobs are not the best choice for me. And that's not even taking into account the ability of the scope to track 'true' with those BDC knobs. A knob don't mean squat if the scope its screwed to don't track. And the limitations of a BDC reticle are just as real, given the fact that the reticle is calibrated for only ONE magnification power. But I'll digress...
Sure enough, the gun don't make the hunter. Never did & never will. And I hope this post didn't come off as being overly defensive on my part. Just trying to illustrate why some guys spend more on gear, and not sound like a boob while doing so...
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 21, 2010, 06:47 AM:
Fred
Thats exactly what I was reffering to some people are more passionate about it than others no right or wrong way here.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2010, 08:48 AM:
Yeah, maybe? But I don't need no stinking turrets. I need a flat shooting rifle that kills reliably out to the very rare shot at 500 yards and that's usually at a cripple or one that has stopped and posed for a long time and I feel tempted. I try to keep my shots to around 400 yards, at night and probably much less than that, on a day stand. But, when you consider all the things that can happen with multiples, there will be the one that manages to escape while working a bolt, and other reasons. And, waiter, please, a little truth serum cocktail for those other guys, not our members, of course. I can kill every one, the only limitation is how many cartridges I have in my pocket.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 21, 2010, 09:10 AM:
Nope Leonard, you don't need turrets then. You need a .17Pred!
If only one could be had in a machine gun...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2010, 09:23 AM:
No, really, it's because I have seen the evil. Had a friend that had target turrets and while night hunting the cord got entangled around those protruding turrets and flipped the rifle out of the truck while spotlighting at 40 miles per hour. Got it all dirty, and knocked off the zero, which didn't matter anyway since he can't see for shit at night.
Reasons galore, but that cured me right now!
gOOD HUNTING. lb
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on May 21, 2010, 11:43 AM:
I know that the Ballistic Plex Reticle sure is handy on my single bolt pistol. Some places I hunt I don't know if the shot will be at 
150yds. or 
250yds. or 
330yds.I have shot as far as 410yds. Doing it this way may not be for everyone but I enjoy it.
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on May 21, 2010, 02:00 PM:
Nice pistol!
As for turrets, BDC,Target, whatever... they are for easy zeroing for new loads or extreme snipers. Truth is, if you know what your round will do at given ranges the biggest problem then becomes knowing the exact distance. Holdover is not much of a problem out to 400 and maybe even 500yds if you've shot your rifle enough. I'd worry more about terminal ballistics at that range.
Calling predators is about getting them in close so why all the worry about killing something in the next county? Seems it might be fun to shoot at 300-400 yds but beyond that becomes work and that's NOT why I like to hunt!
Nikonut
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2010, 02:20 PM:
Holy shit! What have I done? This 24/7 Okie is already starting to mutate!
Posted by Inoculation (Member # 2229) on May 21, 2010, 05:52 PM:
Shooting at coyotes past 300yds.....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2010, 06:27 PM:
JohnLK:
That series of photographs? Are they staged posed, taken by another person? Is what is in the circle a coyote? I don't get it? Where did you find the time to line a camera up with the scope. What is going on, what are you trying to say? Again; I do not get it?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on May 21, 2010, 09:07 PM:
I hope I didn’t do something wrong. The pictures where taken by myself from the same spot but on 3 different days after I was done hunting. The red circle is where the coyote is after the shot. I used the paint feature that’s on my computer. Just trying to show a place where spinning turrets or ballistic reticles are nice to have. I am shooting a 70gr bullet at 3150fps from a 243win with a 15” barrel and using a ballistic plex recticle or spinning turrets makes longer shots easier to do. Even at reduced velocities. I don’t understand why someone would against them if you can make them work for you. I found out that it is harder than heck to line a camera up thru a pistol scope with the pistols grip resting on my knee.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2010, 09:25 PM:
Of course you didn't do anything wrong. However, without explanation, I'm sure you can understand my confusion?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2010, 03:35 AM:
John,
Is the orange on the back of your seat a carryover from deer season? Or is it something you do in order to keep from getting shot in the back while hunting predators?
Just curious. When I was a young law enforcement
officer we had a couple suspects bail out of a stolen car on the Jersey Turnpike. There was an old time cop that showed up on the scene who put his hat on backwards before we went searching for the suspects in the cattails. The cop was from a different agency and my partner and I didn't know him. We must have been looking at him with a "What the hell?" expression. He told us the reason he puts his hat on backwards is because he wants to avoid being shot in the back by another cop.
It made sense to us at the time.
Sorry for the digression all, but John's photo made think of this.
Anyhoo, the old cop ended up retiring and moving out to western NJ. He somehow met a friend of mine, and we all met for breakfast one morning and the old guy remembered me. Harry is a Korean war veteran. He is in his eighties and is still kicking, and taking Viagra.
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on May 22, 2010, 06:28 AM:
Yes I can understand that I can be little short on explaining things. I also know that a caller can set themselves up for a short distance shot by using the terrain. But there is places where you just never know what will happen. I think there is some neat info in the pictures that have nothing to do with the topic. You read a lot on how you can’t call a coyote out of heavy cover into the wide open during the day (a very sunny day) east of the Mississippi river. Also that you should bury yourself deep into the brush and don’t face the sun so the coyotes can’t see you and have the wind at your back. Hell, I did everything wrong. As for the seat, In Michigan when you’re on the move you have to wear hunter orange and when you are on stand you can take it off. The neat thing about that seat is you can sit just about any where and have a backrest. It carries like a backpack. Some places might take a 1/2hr to hike into and it makes it easy to carry things.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 22, 2010, 12:10 PM:
quote:
Are you always letting him in too close and need to shoot at a moving animal, or do you know exactly what he will do and deal with it?
In my area once in awhile I'll get the unexspected coyote, but for the norm they come from the direction I'm broadcasting the sound to.
If a broadcast the sound from side to side and out in front on my stands then i get coyotes that can pop-up almost anywhere. On most stands the coyotes that come in from the side will work there way to 10:00 or 2:00 position and then stop and look and some will stop directly in front of the caller..
If you would look at a few of Les johnsons vidio's you will notice his coyotes come in from the left and right and straight out and as they move in closer they start to head for the source of the sound. Once the coyotes are directly in front of the caller some will come straight in and some will then head to the down wind side..
if a caller calls straight out in front or into the wind thats where most of the coyotes are going to come from and if you call to the left and right also you are going to get a few that come in from there as well..Most callers think it was just a coyote sneaking in on the downwind side when actually the coyote was already there to start with and came straight in..
so if you don't want them comeing in from the side don't call in that direction or do it towards the end of youre stand..
I like to make my stands and call to anything thats in the area so I don't have to make as many stands in a area, plus my stands are more productive this way as well. Just be ready for them..
quote:
Randy, there is a lot of talk about body language holding a clue to whether a second coyote is coming to the call, but just out of sight. The theory is that they come in along the same path.
In my area a coyote will come in and check-up a few 100 yds out and if there is another coyote traveling with it it will look back and if you give it a little time it may do a double take then I know for sure there is another on its way in.. My area is so open i will see any others that maybe on the way in. When I call some deep drainages then I will watch the first coyote that responds a see what it has to say..
quote:
How often do you see coyotes converge from different directions, and suddenly you need a plan? What about when locating and expecting an approach from a certain direction, but a stray shows up on your weak side? If you move to address him, what about the others expected shortly, once you are out of position; I mean, hung out to dry?
I only see it happen when I get to close to a group and makes it tuff for a lone caller so I try to call from farther out and work them 1 or 2 at a time..I find you can get away with some movement without spooking the coyote so I just get on them and get it done. Some cases you can just wait them out and then get a shot.. Each stand is a little different as well as the coyote, some make take only a lip squeak, or perhaps some more rabbit screams or just sit there and be quiet..
quote:
Exactly how detrimental is a shot, to any additional animals approaching the stand? I don't find them to be wary, most often, they seem rather deaf, not spooked.
depends on how far out they are and how close the first shot was if you missed and if the animal has ever been exsposed to it before.
Also if you kill one of the pr. or thriple the others may stick around or may run off over a hill and I just call them back some times..
As for doubles or thripples if they come off from one stand they get counted as such..
BDC dials: Not for everyone but if you have some areas where a long shot needs to be taken then I like them better than guessing hold-over..
Best way to decribe there advantage over guessing hold over is to have someone place a target at a unknown distance and then you shoot at the target useing just hold over method.And then shoot at target useing the BDC dial and takeing a guess with how much you dial in..
With the bdc dial youre guess canbe off a 100 yds and you can still hit the 6x12" kill area on the coyote..
For the guys that call most of there coyotes in under a 100 yds why do you even bother useing a scope for such a short distance when iron sites wouldbe better. Can pick up youre target faster and the same goes for multiples..Makes no sense to me..LOL
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 22, 2010, 12:42 PM:
I can't see irons anymore... I tried a eotech also and found it lacking.
3.5X10X50 suits me just fine.
[ May 22, 2010, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2010, 01:20 PM:
Tell me more about the eotech, Kelly.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 22, 2010, 01:30 PM:
Being able to shoot both eyes open and fast acquisition has appeal on close called coyotes, but overall I didn’t like. Even thou the dot only covered an inch at 100 yards, I like the magnification and ability for a precise shot that to date I have only been able to achieve with a scope.
I know guys that are running the eotech with a 3x magnifier and the say they like it.
For now I am just going to stick with what’s working. That’s keeping the scope on 3.5 power and cranking it up when needed.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2010, 02:36 PM:
I've used Aimpoints and eo-techs before along with irons but like Kelly, I like a scope better.
I do use a 3.5-10 but I really like my 1.5-5's better in close cover. It allows me to see much better in low light than irons and I can still crank it up for a shot over 100 yards or if I have to pick a hole in the brush.
I do have an eo-tech on my 22LR now along with irons and I shoot it quite a bit but the low powered scopes trump em everytime.
edited to add a pic of my 22 for ElBee
[ May 22, 2010, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2010, 02:39 PM:
I also don't buy into the thought of they'll come in straight to the speaker. I've seen too many come in from behind me looking at the caller and I do get lucky every now and then and pick where a coyote might be hiding.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2010, 02:50 PM:
I almost went for the Eotech for my R-15 but the Nikon scope I bought was cheaper, and I like having a little magnification.
That Eotech is one heckuva sight though. My buddy Tom (my other buddy Tom from work) lent me the Eotech he had on his rifle in Iraq. I told him I couldn't borrow that one but he insisted.
I liked shooting with the Eotech alot but I don't like to spend too much money on myself these days.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2010, 03:00 PM:
One other thing, when I used Aimpoints, I used them in LaRue mounts and my scopes are all in LaRue mounts. These are QD and return to zero so I'd trade em out as required. If someone broke into my home or I was clearing a building the red dots would win hands down for speed.
49, I love the sig line.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 22, 2010, 03:40 PM:
49 I just saw that Princeton NJ is giving out picture ID cards to people who are not here legally. Even has a place for them to put a phone number for a contact/translator if they can't speak English.
I bet the AZ boys could bus yall up plenty of customers.
maybe its a plan to get info before they round em up.......one can only hope.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 22, 2010, 04:11 PM:
quote:
I also don't buy into the thought of they'll come in straight to the speaker. I've seen too many come in from behind me looking at the caller and I do get lucky every now and then and pick where a coyote might be hiding.
I agree Tom depending on where you are doing youre calling. Most likely a coyote was bedded nearbye and you walked past it to youre stand.
I've had stands where I just walked in from the road and set up on a east and west side hill and have coyotes bedded down on the same hill side. It don't happen that often but it is a good idea to look both ways from time to time just incase.. Another thing is you may have gotten too close to the core area and had coyotes all around.. It really helps to know where they are before you set up to give you the advantage rather than disadvantage..
I posted this before but bare with me. In this video the coyotes where bumped comeing into a pasture and ran into a drainage to the left which is south of my stand. I set up faceing to the west with some haystacks behind me and left. When I started calling I pointed the caller to the south and then back to the west after a few seconds. As you see in the video the coyotes come from my left and circle back towards me. This is how most but not all of the coyotes react on my stands. Also in the video you will see a second coyote come from the same direction and this is after I just shot the first coyote. And you will also see the second coyote stop to look back at me just before i shot at it and missed..
[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208 /TA17Rem/09-10%20Fox%20and%20coyotes/th_Deletepartiallyof2112010_092130.jpg[/IMG]
[ May 22, 2010, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2010, 04:26 PM:
Kelly I would like to think it is a plan to round them up. But knowing NJ and especially the Ivy League town of Princeton I would have to guess naught.
The town did hire some professional hunters to thin the deer population a few years ago so maybe there is some hope.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2010, 04:27 PM:
quote:
49, I love the sig line.
Thanks Tom I was thinking you might like it.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 24, 2010, 03:10 PM:
Cal,
I can see where it would be an important option when you have a coyote you have to kill.Both the use of turrets and the caliber of choice to get the job done,that includes the use of a shotgun.
I guess I was speaking from the Recreational caller and/or fur harvester standpoint.Like you said about a light weight rifle setup.I carry lightweight rifles in 17 calibers with a 3x10 Swarovski or 3x9 Ziess scope and they are great little setups for calling.And it gets the job done 99% of the time for me.My 17 Tactical is zeroed at 180 yards so I'm only about 4.5 inches low at 300 yards which is very close to max for me anyway.
But I definitely can see your needs as tools of your trade.
Good Hunting Chad
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