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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 12, 2010, 07:56 AM:
 
Which of the following coyote calling methods will create more "call shy coyotes" and why?

1. Electronic calls

2. Hand calls

Stop and think about it.

~SH~
 

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Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on December 12, 2010, 08:42 AM:
 
I think improper setup and piss poor shooting creates the most.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 12, 2010, 09:06 AM:
 
A very tricky question, Scott!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 12, 2010, 09:20 AM:
 
I don't have a clue and might not add anything of value, but if I could throw a guess out there, I might say, of those two, hand calls.

Too much movement, and easier to get busted making distress or other sounds, than a e-caller 40 (+ or -) yards away from the shooter.

OR

Too many e-callers with limited sounds. The really smart coyotes learn these sounds and pass them on to other coyotes, and that accounts for the conspiracy I know they have against me.

Seriously, I am interested in the answers to this question. This whole calling thing can get overwhelming and frustrating at times.

[edited for spelling]

[ December 12, 2010, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 12, 2010, 09:32 AM:
 
I dont know the answer either but about half the coyotes in Az. hear lightnin jack and head for the hills! hmmm?

[ December 12, 2010, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 12, 2010, 10:00 AM:
 
Not sure what the 'right' answer is, but I find it noteworthy that electronic calls and hand calls are considered 'coyote calling methods' rather than just 'coyote calling tools'.

Having thought about it, as instructed, I would say without hesitation; It depends...........
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on December 12, 2010, 10:10 AM:
 
With the popularity of Ecalls over whelming the old style of handcalling, and with the fact that seemingly most new guys use Ecalls and then leave them running continously on every stand blaring on full volume without a clue on how to handle a coyote or how to pick a stand, my guess is that Ecalls are educating more coyotes than hand calls these days.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on December 12, 2010, 11:06 AM:
 
I will have to agree with TR on the fact that ecalls HAVE created more call shy coyotes. This is due to the fact that they have simplified the process for the new comer and put more callers in the field. More callers equels more call shy coyotes. This reasoning could also put blame on the internet ( a complete other tangent).
The question was, 'what calling method WILL cause more call shy coyotes?'. I have a 50/50 chance here. My guess would be ecalls. The reasons would be exact duplication/repetition of sounds and continuous play(by this I mean long loops that are played continuously without a break).
OK, now which calling method would be best to use on call shy coyotes? Thats the answer I really want to know.

Maintain
 

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Posted by Briguy (Member # 3471) on December 12, 2010, 11:40 AM:
 
So, now we have 2 questions posed. First, which leads to more call shy coyotes, and second, which is best to use on call shy coyotes?

No idea the answer, and I personally don't think there is an answer that's black and white. Too many variables on both sides of that coin.

I do feel that if I'm going into an area with what I feel are call shy coyotes, I'm better off with the e-caller. The ability to quickly change sounds with anything from coyote vocals to some exotic sounds like Snow Shoe Hare or Flying Squirrel(which we don't have here, and I can't imagine the rookies out there that are educating coyotes are using those as their go to sounds), will provide me an opportunity to give them something they haven't heard before.

Course, the uniqueness and ability to mix things up with the hand call in the right hands could produce the same effects. I'm not that versatile with the hands calls, so tough for me to mix it up to the level probably necessary to coax the call shy coyote.

So, short answer to the questions...Uhhhh, IDUNNOOOOO.
 

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Posted by Clank (Member # 3687) on December 12, 2010, 11:41 AM:
 
I would say ecalls to many unexperianced rookies deciding to get in the game and have no clue how to set up or call.
As for call shy that would have to fall in the catagore of waiting them out till breading season for the best chance to get them or wait them out and snipe them.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 12, 2010, 01:39 PM:
 
Getting busted while calling, is the main reason why I like to have a emachine and control it remotely. I could not count the number of times I began a sequence and glanced around and there was a bobcat or coyote staring right at me. They don't necessarily do that when the sound is coming from 100 feet away.....unless they catch my movement, while evaluating the situation.

So, I know, for a fact, that more coyotes and especially cats will zero in on a hunter with a hand call, even if 100% camouflaged. And, that is your only refuge, total camo and zero movement. Ask my buddy Higgy.

But, as Geordie wrote, above, the sheer number of electronic calls being misused by novices is staggering. The average DEER hunter hasn't given much thought to techniques and for the most part, tend to conduct a stand with a lot of mistakes that will give him away.

As I always said, it took me a couple trips by myself without a clue, followed by one day with somebody that knew how to do it for me to figure things out well enough to be successful, all by myself. In this business, the printed word leaves a lot to be desired, when you have never done it before. If you even have minimal experience, reading can be very helpful, unless you are a hardheaded Minneesotan Swede. (just kidding, just kidding)

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 12, 2010, 03:25 PM:
 
We tend to use the term "call shy" when what we are actually seeing is a coyote or coyotes that have been conditioned to recognize a certain sound coming from a certain location with danger. I have seen that happen too many times.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 12, 2010, 05:56 PM:
 
I would have to say handcalls..
I'm still out hunting in S.D. and I'm working my way through abunch of ranches that got hit by callers for the V.H. contest. I hit two ranches this mourning and two in the after noon..
Most stands have been 20 min. and the coyotes are still comeing easey..
I got the chance to break in the 20x47 Lapua with 40 gr. V-max bullets today.. Hits on standing still coyotes one hole in and nothing out. It will tear them up on a bad hit just like the bigger cal.s.. Happy with performance but I'm going back to the 17 cal. tomorrow...
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 12, 2010, 06:30 PM:
 
I just talked to someone about that very thing the other day and without a question, I would say E-callers. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry are out there now days throwing all these different sounds out there. People that don't know a damn thing about calling are ruining the sport. Gets pretty frustrating. I never did like the damn things in the first place. I wouldn't use one if someone gave me the best there is. End of discussion.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on December 12, 2010, 07:46 PM:
 
I've got to agree...Ecallers. Not due to the tool itself but do to the average person blowing a hand call and the average person using an ecaller are two different degrees of hunters as far as expierence. I also believe that there is a lot of people using ecaller coyote vocals that don't have any idea how to use them or when to use them and don't have a clue what they are saying to the coyotes.

They certainly both have their place i just wish there was some kind of stipulation that you had to call in and kill 30 coyotes with a handcall before you were allowed to purchase an ecaller.....LOL
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 12, 2010, 08:23 PM:
 
I don't think that either hand calls or electronic calls, create more call shy coyotes than the other. The methods in which they are used,or used around you,is more of the problem than whether you use a hand call or electronic.
Hand calls are good because we all create different sounds, and have different cadences, which makes them unique to each individual. This can also be a curse if we make the same sounds from the same location repeatedly. They are easier to carry and you do not have the added risk of being seen when you are placing the electronic caller away from you.
Electronic calls are good because you have the convenience of choosing a lot of different sounds. You have the ability to set up certain scenarios, which can be more inviting to the coyotes that we are trying to call. It lets us use sounds that we are unable to make on a mouth call, or sounds that we are not good at making.
The problem is that everyone could be using the same sounds that you are using.
Call shy coyotes are created because of how and where these calls are used to name just a couple of reasons. It doesn't matter what we use if we are calling towards areas that represent danger, such as roads or areas where coyotes have been shot at previously. Letting the coyotes use the wind against us instead of us using it in our favor is another reason for call shy coyotes. Being seen either driving or walking into stands, walking along the top of ridges and not under them to help keep you hidden, lots of movement on the stand, and glare from your guns and equipment are also things that create call shy coyotes that have nothing to do with whether you are using a mounth call or electronic.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 12, 2010, 09:11 PM:
 

quote:

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The problem is that everyone could be using the same sounds that you are using.
Call shy coyotes are created because of how and where these calls are used to name just a couple of reasons. It doesn't matter what we use if we are calling towards areas that represent danger, such as roads or areas where coyotes have been shot at previously. Letting the coyotes use the wind against us instead of us using it in our favor is another reason for call shy coyotes. Being seen either driving or walking into stands, walking along the top of ridges and not under them to help keep you hidden, lots of movement on the stand, and glare from your guns and equipment are also things that create call shy coyotes that have nothing to do with whether you are using a mounth call or electronic.

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When hand callers call they have to stop every so often to catch there breath. Not all coyotes but most will loose interest or forget what they are responding to when this happens. You may have guessed it, I call almost non-stop
, the coyotes keep comeing and seem more excited when they do show up. Stop calling or pause the coyote stops, call again it starts moveing, it gets to the point to where the coyote is on a string and you stop pulling at the wrong time the coyote is going to get a good look at youre set up and if something is out of place its gone.
Keep the coyote interested!!!!

Roads don't represent danger! The vihicle comeing down the road does.. Coyotes cross the road all the time day or night. I had a guy give me a bad time cause I called close to the road.. Reason for doing this is because the coyotes where bedded by the road to begin with..LOL
If a hunter shoots from a road in a certain area then yes the coyote may shy away from that little piece of road, but you can move down the road a couple 100 yds and game is back on.. After it snows look for place where a coyote does cross the road, they will feel comfortable comeing in to the call in this spot...
Depending on weather conditions you can use the wind in youre favor for getting the sound out,just make sure you have someone set up farther down and off to one side to intersept the coyote or use some ground structure to keep the coyote out of youre scent...

I've driven into calling areas and been busted by coyotes, if I see the coyote at the same time I just keep on driveing and don't stop, If I do happen to stop then the coyote will run off.. No big deal! Coyotes have a short memory and it will soon forget who or what I was.. Give them a little time and come back this time without being spotted and game is on.
As for movement you would be surprised with how much you can get away with, as long as they are not looking right at you..
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 12, 2010, 10:29 PM:
 
I hope you are not wanting me to believe that the only interested coyotes are the coyotes responding to an electronic call while moving around a lot on a stand? Do you think the only coyotes watching you while you are calling and waving your call over your head like you say you do, are the coyotes that you are seeing? Some of them might not see you, but you are running the chance of making others that you don't see call shy, by your method.
I grew up in country that is really flat with little cover to hide yourself in. You are not going to drive 200 yards down the road and call that coyote in. The coyotes around there are not only road shy, but they are vehicle shy also, because of how far a person can see. The coyotes around there may be fairly close around the ranch house early in the morning, but as soon as the rancher starts his day the coyotes are leaving that area rapidly. The best method of hunting those areas are to start walking from the ranch house before the movement starts around there in the mornings or, have someone drop you off in the direction that the coyotes will be moving into to spend their day, before they get there.
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 12, 2010, 10:52 PM:
 
As far as calling constantly to have an interested coyote is debatable. Coyotes respond to distressed sounds from animals all the time. Do you think an animal being munched on, is going to scream constantly, or is going to take a break to breathe when needed? Is it more likely to scream constantly or take breaks between being bitten? Just because a coyote comes in faster than another, does that mean it is more interested than another one that takes longer to get to you? I'm not sure how you measure interest in a coyote. A coyote responding faster than another one could be the result of coyote populations and not interest.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 12, 2010, 11:11 PM:
 
"When hand callers call they have to stop every so often to catch there breath. Not all coyotes but most will loose interest or forget what they are responding to when this happens."

That's got to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet.

Whoever said it before hit the nail on the head.

"You can't fix stupid"

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 13, 2010, 06:57 AM:
 

quote:

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"When hand callers call they have to stop every so often to catch there breath. Not all coyotes but most will loose interest or forget what they are responding to when this happens."

That's got to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet.

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X2 on ridiculous
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 13, 2010, 07:05 AM:
 
x500
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 13, 2010, 07:18 AM:
 
Very good thread.

I would have to say hand calls would make more "call shy" coyotes. When speaking in terms of hand calls there is only so many variances or different animal distress sounds you can make with a handcall. With that being said it would make them more "sound shy" to a certain degree. With electronics you can come back in with a completely different distress sound not even in the same species of animal wih a push of a button and perk the coyotes interest in a different way. But that line of thinking means they would have to be certain sound shy and not distress all together shy(if that makes scense). Scott do you think they get "distress shy" or "sound specific shy"?

Even with that said I dont know if one or the other actually makes a coyote more shy than the other. A coyote called that escapes will learn pretty quick no matter what method and I think adjust its entrance into a stand if it will still come. IE the 200-500 yard wind circlin coyotes. Eventually after a few experiences with busting a caller I would like to think the really smart coyotes will not respond to a distress sound unless they are infact creating/killing the animal themselves that is in distress. But I may be giving them to much credit. I like to think those are the coyotes that throwing the coyote vocalization curve ball to would be one of the only ways to bring them in while calling......if you knew your howls......which I dont.

I definately do not think E calls are better than hand calls though. Some of the best callers in the nation use predominatly hand calls.
 

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Posted by CatTracker (Member # 3526) on December 13, 2010, 07:45 AM:
 
Well, since you only offer two options, I'm going to say e-callers. I do think that repeated sounds and cadences educate certain coyotes. However, I do think there is more to it than just the tunes your singing to be successful in heavily hunted areas. I find when I sound just right, am invisible and use the wind, my luck goes up considerably even with an e-caller. In other words, when your killing grounds are repeatedly under assault, hunt like your life depends on it and not the same way as the Wendy's-McDonald's clan for better results.
 

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Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on December 13, 2010, 08:18 AM:
 

quote:

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Being seen either driving or walking into stands, walking along the top of ridges and not under them to help keep you hidden, lots of movement on the stand, and glare from your guns and equipment are also things that create call shy coyotes that have nothing to do with whether you are using a mouth call or electronic.

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quote:

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As far as calling constantly to have an interested coyote is debatable. Coyotes respond to distressed sounds from animals all the time. Do you think an animal being munched on, is going to scream constantly, or is going to take a break to breathe when needed? Is it more likely to scream constantly or take breaks between being bitten? Just because a coyote comes in faster than another, does that mean it is more interested than another one that takes longer to get to you? I'm not sure how you measure interest in a coyote. A coyote responding faster than another one could be the result of coyote populations and not interest.

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quote:

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I'm not sure how you measure interest in a coyote. A coyote responding faster than another one could be the result of coyote populations and not interest.

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Its measured by watching the coyote, if the coyote stops comeing in and starts to mouse around or just leave, it lost interest...

[ December 14, 2010, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 13, 2010, 07:00 PM:
 
I didn't miss your point at all, but you are not going to get me to believe the only difference between calling young virgin coyotes and coyotes who have been around a while is either tooting a couple of times or calling constantly. Your just not right on this one. Just because you killed three coyotes in a pasture where somebody called 2 days ago doesn't mean crap, especially if you are trying to say they didn't kill coyotes because they use a fox pro and you don't. Did you ever stop and think those coyotes may not have been in that pasture or surrounding areas at the time the other guys were calling and therefore did not hear them calling. Hell the wind could have been blowing 30 mph the day they were there compared to when you were there. There could be way too many variables to the story for me to believe you killing those 3 coyotes confirms you are superior to the others that were there before you, and furthermore if you are believing that, you need to put some preperation h on your head to shrink it back to where it needs to be.
As far as a coyote that stops coming when called to does not necessarily mean he has lost interest. You could be in another coyotes territory and he had his ass kicked previously when entering the area you are calling from.
I wish you would let me in on what you consider to be myth's that certain stupid people continue to believe in and why they are struggling to kill coyotes.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on December 13, 2010, 07:42 PM:
 
Tim, could you please clear up some of the confusion by telling all us stupid people what a "Famous F-P cs-20 is?

Somebody been clanging on your bucket lately while it is mounted on your head?
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 13, 2010, 08:36 PM:
 
I don't believe it's the call that makes a coyote shy. That's a characteristic that happens before their eyes are open. The heirarcy and pecking order determines the demeanor of the coyote long before they are called.

I believe that coyotes that hang up aren't call shy or educated but merely a product up their childhood, having been dominated by their more aggresive peers thus carrying on that behavior into their adult life.

On Saturday two of us made 11 stands and called six and took five. Number six got a pass because I took one second too long to take the shot. Were they NOT call shy?

The very next day we made 11 stands and called up one. Were they call shy? Same general area. Same numbers of coyotes sounding off in early morning. Same coyote sign. Same calling routine that netted coyotes the day before. Same mixture of hand calls and electronics.

The ony difference in the 2 days was pressure.

On Saturday we saw nobody. On Sunday we crossed several trucks driving around that were deer hunting.
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on December 14, 2010, 12:01 AM:
 
I Didn't read the hole thread and most likely wont.

You say you don't believe it's the call that makes a coyote shy?
The heirarcy and pecking order determines the demeanor of the coyote long before they are called.
I believe that coyotes that hang up aren't call shy or educated but merely a product up their childhood, having been dominated by their more aggressive peers thus carrying on that behavior into their adult life

Jay I would have to start off by saying this isn't Predator masters your changing theory's on coyotes behavior
is questionable, so with that said I like to ask a couple questions.


Jay why is there aggressiveness with his peers?
Is it typically in place to start a pecking order to see who eats first wether it be moms milk or a regurgitated rabbit ?
If so what are your levels of shyness then?
Is the strongest pup the least shy? and the next one in line just a little more shy, all the way down to the shyest of them all the runt?
Or are they all just aggressive to just one pup and he grows up to be shy?
But that cant be rite, its a pecking order so they all must have some level of shyness then right?
will the shy kids have trouble once they move on? do your coyote family brake up and some become transients? or do just your aggressors do that?
So would your statement above be for all coyote in all coyote ranges across the country?
Mr. Nistetter at what age do you think the pecking order changes? Is a 7 month old shy coyote just as shy at 14 months?
How about coyote density per square mile, could that make him shy to the call ?
How about pray animals per square mile could full belly's make them shy to a call?
do shy coyotes only respond to pray sounds?
will they ever respond to sounds such as barks or howls with them being shy and all.

how many times will they run into your sreen door jay before they know its there

But I would like to know were Mr.Nistetter is calling and if he can give a little more info on what he thinks the coyote density and pray animals is in his calling area.

[ December 14, 2010, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 14, 2010, 04:32 AM:
 
FWIW;
For me, a 'Call Shy' coyote is an entire package, not just an animal that's heard #83 Buzzed Bunny once to often and won't fall for it again.

To build a call shy coyote, start with;

A coyote that hears a truck roll to a stop and then hears distress sounds.

A coyote that sees a hunter walking into stand and then hears distress sounds.

A coyote that is already downwind when the music starts or circles to the stinky side.

Any number of things that can (and do) go wrong on stand allowing one or more coyotes to escape while hearing distress sounds.

You don't have to combine many of these errors with the common denoninator being a distress call, whether hand or e-caller, and you have a problem coyote on your hands.
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 14, 2010, 04:49 AM:
 

quote:

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Jay I would have to start off by saying this isn't Predator masters your changing theory's on coyotes behavior is questionable, so with that said I like to ask a couple questions.

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quote:

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Jay why is there aggressiveness with his peers?

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quote:

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Is it typically in place to start a pecking order to see who eats first wether it be moms milk or a regurgitated rabbit ?

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quote:

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If so what are you levels of shyness?

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quote:

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is the strongest pup the least shy? and the next one in line just a little more shy all the way down to the shyest of them all the runt?

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quote:

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Or are they all just aggressive to just one pup and he grows up to be shy?
But that cant be rite its a pecking order so they all must have some level of shyness then right?

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quote:

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will the shy kids have trouble once they move on? do your coyote family brake up and some become transients? or just the aggressors?

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quote:

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So would your statement above be for all coyote in all coyote ranges across the country?

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quote:

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Mr. Nistetter at what age do you think the pecking order changes? Is a 7 month old shy coyote just as shy at 14 months?

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quote:

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How about coyote density per square mile, could that make him shy to the call ?

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quote:

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How about pray animals per square mile could full belly's make them shy to a call?

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quote:

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do shy coyotes only respond to pray sounds?
will they ever respond to or barks or howls with them being shy and all.

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quote:

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how many times will they run into your sreen door jay before they know ts there

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quote:

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But I would like to know were Mr.Nistetter is calling and if he can give a little more info on what he thinks the coyote density and pray animals is in his calling area.

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Once in awhile I get out of Arizona, but for the most part, I tend to stay within driving distances from Phoenix.

Like I said Goerge, I get to go calling ocassionally. I'm no expert on coyotes, nor do I wish to be. If you don't prescribe to my methods, no problem. You can taylor your coyote hunting methods to suit your own needs. My methods may cause me to strike out in other parts of the country. I do know I approach coyotes a little different in western Kansas and East Texas than I do here in southern Arizona.

Hell, I can be unsuccessful anywhere but that's not the important thing for me. The important thing is to get out and have fun. If I worried and fretted over every unsuccessful stand I make, the I shouldn't be out calling coyotes.
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on December 14, 2010, 05:59 AM:
 
I think all callers no matter how good they are or think they are help to create call conditioned coyotes. There are always coyotes who detect the caller due to no particluar fault of the caller and make those natural associations with the danger through that experience . The more times calling scenarios are presented the more education goes on.I often say it is just as important to sneek out of an unproductive stand as it is to sneak in .I have no doubt many times coyotes are observing callers leaving what was an unproductive stand.After a time or two of this experience ,it gets a lot more diffucult. Maybe
 

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Posted by NVWalt (Member # 375) on December 14, 2010, 07:49 AM:
 
Just have to throw my 2 cents, and that's all it's worth too, in on the subject. I think, I know, I know, that it is a lot to do with the set up to begin with and how careful you were to get to your chosen honey hole. I have also found that the retreat from said setup is important also. As you sometimes don't see ol Cannis latrans sitting there watching the spot all that racket came from.
From calling in areas where e-callers are used by absolutely everyone it seems, I have been able to do better with my ol hand calls. My old calling buddy and I did a few months of calling up in the BlackRock area of Nevada which is called on a daily basis with both a FoxPro and with our handcalls and we honestly had much better luck with our handcalls, all things being equal. I don't know if the coyotes have heard the e-caller way to much or that all the e-caller coyote ambushers were just not real good at hunting coyotes and that could make them coyotes a bit leary associating the sound with people. I have also watched coyotes comming in and check up at a point and start looking around and then start a cautious aproach to the call. I took that to be a coyote that knew he was tresspassing on the other gangs turf.Maybe, maybe not. I have watched them coyotes do some interesting things at times over the years of calling I have done. The most interesting was up int the Smoke Creek area of Nevada when Ron and I were calling and they were also aerial gunning the valley. We actually watched a coyote head under the cover of some heavy sage when he heard the airplane engine.That was an eye opener for both of us.He had to have figured that out sometime in his past. This is an interesting post but if we actually knew what was, then maybe calling just wouldn't be as much fun as it is. Just my 2 cents is all. Good calling,,,,Walt
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 14, 2010, 02:27 PM:
 
SH, you better chime in on this discussion. I'm sure you are getting a few chuckles.
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on December 14, 2010, 03:44 PM:
 
jay lets get something strait I am a ass just like most just bigger ,
and I will own that.
I posted at 3 am as I was headed out the door again to put 4 or 5 stands in. it again is below zero and 3 or 4 nights of this and I become a bigger ass just colder. so sorry for my online assholeisom.

Your reasoning behind your shy coyote theory was to much for me
peer aggression happens to all coyotes whether is a larger sibling showing aggression to the runt or a large males aggression to a subordinate male attempt to test the boundary's of his home range or his lady friends sent. aggression between coyotes is just part of there life. and I feel is way down on the list of what makes
coyotes call shy.

my answer to what makes them call shy isn't all that in depth ,, it would be that they are smart!
Never underestimate what they will or wont do. think any harder then that and you just be fooling yourself



[ December 14, 2010, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 14, 2010, 04:58 PM:
 
I slip out into 6mm284's area now and then. Right after a fresh snow is best. I walk backwards the last 100 yards before I get to my honey hole, because the coyotes see my tracks and think that I just left. Gives em a false sense of security ya see.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on December 14, 2010, 05:20 PM:
 
damn....I wish it would snow here.

Heck I am going to say, not getting them killed when they come in.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 14, 2010, 07:21 PM:
 
Ok..............Ecallers create more call shy animals for two reasons.
(1) Callers using excessive volume, causing coyotes to hang up at a couple of hundred yards.

and

(2) Tim uses an Ecaller so it MUST be wrong.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 14, 2010, 08:09 PM:
 
Kelly, I understand letting coyotes get away, when they come in multiples, but Amigo; you have that machinegun for just those situations!

I'm still clinging to my oft stated bitch, (I mean, observation). Foxpro has made my coyote hunting a bit more difficult.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 14, 2010, 08:16 PM:
 
KJ "damn....I wish it would snow here."

I hear that!



Educated... that's a widely varied thing.

The other day I was hunting the cornfield in the above photo (yeah there's a field under there), and shot a duck that drifted a long ways before hitting the ground.
I jumped out of the blind and lit out after it.
I didn't make it very many steps when I spotted a coyote running full speed out of the woods at the back edge of the field... he grabbed my duck, and trotted off with it.

And, whenever we get to discusiing education and coyotes I'm always taken back to Joshua Tree, to the Turtle Rock picnic area, where not just one, but an entire group of coyotes used a fake limp, in effort to (and successfully so) get handouts.

The term "call shy" as it applies to "education" is a tough sell, on me. I mean unless a coyote jumps up, in plain sight, and runs from a call, how do we know why he didn't come to the call.

"Only the yippers know, and they ain't saying."

"Did we just experience the rule, or the exception to the rule? We may never know."

Krusty
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 14, 2010, 08:34 PM:
 

quote:

---

I don't believe it's the call that makes a coyote shy. That's a characteristic that happens before their eyes are open. The heirarcy and pecking order determines the demeanor of the coyote long before they are called.

I believe that coyotes that hang up aren't call shy or educated but merely a product up their childhood, having been dominated by their more aggresive peers thus carrying on that behavior into their adult life.

---

quote:

---

Ok..............Ecallers create more call shy animals for two reasons.
(1) Callers using excessive volume, causing coyotes to hang up at a couple of hundred yards.

and

(2) Tim uses an Ecaller so it MUST be wrong.

---

Koko: I also use hand calls when calling to the cream of the crop.
I've never run into a problem with the caller being too loud. They still kept comeing right up to when the bullet hit them.
I may use softer sounds like vole mouse at the beginning of a stand but its still on full volume..

On the way home tonight I had a chance to reflect on this weeks hunt and also the hunts from last year and so on.
I don't believe there is such a thing as call shy coyotes, just more difficult coyotes..
On most of my stands this last trip I started with some rabbit or some other prey distress and if nothing showed I gave them something else to get them interested and then back to rabbit and they where more than happy to come in..
The numbers are down this year, only got two pups on this trip with the rest being adults. Some came easey and some where difficult but still got them in, I had one coyote that took a little over a hour to bring in.

Calling is one big puzzle the more you learn from called coyotes the more pieces are added to the puzzle.
Road shy coyotes: not all coyotes are road shy. I call to them to find out if they are or are not. If they are then all you have to do is change location and time, it canbe later in the same day or the next day..
I think most callers stay on stand for 15 minutes, I stay for as long as it takes to get them in..
For those of you that are still struggleing maybe you should check out WT's DVD.
After hearing about it a month ago I decided to get one.. Lots of good info that upped my game another notch...

Scott: Thanks for the tip about calling on windy days.

Randy Roede: Thanks for the pointers you gave me a few years back. Due to my hearing loss I missed some of it but Bill filled me in on what I missed.. Awhoooooooo..
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 14, 2010, 09:12 PM:
 

quote:

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I posted at 3 am as I was headed out the door again to put 4 or 5 stands in. it again is below zero and 3 or 4 nights of this

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quote:

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I don't believe there is such a thing as call shy coyotes, just more difficult coyotes..

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Tim...I say bring it.

George Ackley...did Rich Higgens script your last post? Just asking.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 14, 2010, 09:55 PM:
 
Yeah, right, Jay! So far as I know it was in the low 20's in northern AZ the past few days. Quite a bit colder than what I was expecting.

Good hunting. LB

edit: I think AR has a point. I have seen Kansas coyotes literally run the other way because they heard distress sounds coming from an ecaller.

This is due to people queering coyotes that have no business using one of these sophisticated machines. Maybe they need to be regulated and licensed? First things first: prosecute the assholes!

[ December 14, 2010, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 14, 2010, 11:00 PM:
 
Yeah, I've had them run the other way on the first note of a call. Not sure if I just startled them or they're scared of Warerabbits. Sometimes I think on it but never dwell on it. Guess you could say I have an "Oh well" attitude. They're just dogs. Even the best trained obedient dog will brain fart itself from time to time leaving you wondering why they just did what they did.

In SW Kansas, the sight of a truck sends them running. Guess they're either truck shy or damn smart. Same with scent.

I've had them ignore my calling many times. Just like I wasn't even there. After switching sounds 4 or 5 times, something finally clicked and got their attention. Never once have I ever thought a coyote that's had a bad-sound-day swore off rabbits to become a Vegan.

The thing that will screw up calling the most is movement and bad stand selection.

As far as hand calls vs electronics, I believe that some days electronics just don't work when hand calls will and vice-a-versa (sp). Some days nothing works but how could that be considered call shy or educated. Are they call shy or educated only 3 days out of a week?
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 14, 2010, 11:07 PM:
 
Additionally, we've all asked ourselves why would coyotes come running in today but not yesterday. Why one sound works one day but not the next. We even speculated how rich we would be if we could just ever figure out those mysteries.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 14, 2010, 11:46 PM:
 
I have mentioned this before, but it is so outragous and on point that I will do it again.

I was talking to this rancher that claimed his ranch had not been called in seven years.

Maybe not, but every time he fed his cows, he set his Foxpro on the hood and if he looked up and had a coyote watching him, he unlimbered one of his machineguns and chased that coyote into warp 4. A while later, he mentioned that he allowed a friend to spotlight his spread just the night before.....but, at least the place hadn't been "called" in seven years.

Now, if that dumb shit wasn't criminally educating coyotes with his Foxpro, I don't know what it was?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on December 15, 2010, 04:07 AM:
 
Rich, I usually just wear my shoes and hat backward when I go .
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 15, 2010, 04:23 AM:
 
Leonard, it's not just e-calls. I've seen coyotes run the other way from Critr-calls and Circe's too. In Utah. I don't think they are as screwy as it sounds like Kansas coyotes are, but some of the coyotes around here definitely have some call averse days. And from what I've seen of it, I don't think it matters what you use to make the wabbit distress, those particular coyotes just ain't having it on those particular days. I do think it's conditioned response, from having been called to multiple times already, perhaps once a week or more for the last month or two, with rabbit distress. Coyotes are pretty adaptable, if nothing else. I don't think it takes some of them too many times playing the game to start associating that sound, coming from a particular place or direction, with danger.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 15, 2010, 06:53 AM:
 
Im starting to like this thread more and more! Yep Kansas coyotes run the other way from calls and run like hell from trucks and they are screwy as all get out!! Might as well not come here to hunt

x2 on seeing them run the other way with hand calls as well. Ive seen it with both, as im sure most all of you guys have. With the ecall I usually just chalked it up to blowing them out of the stand not know we had some real close. Which may be the case here and there but could have just been "call shy". Which is why I like the idea of starting the stand with a hand call and then using the electronics for some distance/change if nothing responds.

[ December 15, 2010, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 08:43 AM:
 

quote:

---

I've had them ignore my calling many times. Just like I wasn't even there. After switching sounds 4 or 5 times, something finally clicked and got their attention

---

Bingo!

Scott had a thread about howling awhile back and mentioned starting a stand with a few howls..
Before a caller hits the old rabbit blues maybe a few howls should be tossed out there first to let any coyotes know there is another coyote around..
I know one thing when a caller moves into a area with the truck and there is a coyote off in the distance and spots the truck it will let out some warning howls to the others and its just like a chain reaction all the way down a valley. In areas like this I make a stand as soon as I get in past the gate or come into this area from another direction..

Question for the Kansas hunters:: If you know the coyotes are going to run at the first sound of a rabbit in distress then why use it????

On my last trip there was a coyote that hangs out back in the far corner of a ranch. Its been there for a few years and has seen it all. It was getting late and it did'nt pay to move off to another ranch so I decided to head back farther into the area where this coyote hangs out and see if I could get him to come in to a call.. As I got close to his terr. I stopped and glassed the area and spotted him laying on top of a ridge so I kept working my way closer to him and staying behind other ridges till I got close enough for a stand..
I parked the truck in a drainage and got out and worked my way up to the top of a ridge and stopped just a few feet before cresting it and took a look with the glasses. Yep! The coyote was still laying on top of the ridge and about 3/4 of a mile away.. I walked over the top of the ridge I was on and walked about 1/4 the way down it and then set up..
I started my stand with a few lone howls and saw the coyote point his nose to the sky and answer back. I then worked my way through a series of sounds and kept watching the coyote to see how it would react to the sounds played. When I got to the 3rd or 4th sound on my list the coyote started to take interest and walked to the other end of the ridge it was on and a little closer to me.. I played the last sound I used one more time and it appeared that the coyote was answering back but did'nt move any closer to me.. I then continued to go through my list of sounds till I hit another sound to where the coyote howled back again and then took a dump and started to rake the ground with its back feet.. This told me he was interested and also pissed off. I played one more sound and the coyote started to work its way in my direction at a fast walk. It disappeared into a shallow drainage and I did'nt see it for some time but I kept waiting.. I decided to play the last sound I used and the coyote finally appeared on the next ridge putting him a little more closer to me but still out of gun range. I played the sound again that got him comeing in my direction and he just stood there and howled at me and would not come any closer..
I just sat there for a bit and let things calm down.. I decide then I would go through my list of sounds starting at the beginning and see what happens.. I played a distress sound first and got no reaction from the coyote so I figured maybe the coyote can't hear the sound being played so I adjusted my caller by turning it to the right a little bit, more into the wind.
I played the sound again and this time the coyote purked right up and started to pase back and fourth a little. I then switched to coyote vocals and played a few from my list and then back to prey distress and letting it play continues. The coyote snapped to attension and started in my direction at a fast trott. The coyote crested another ridge about 350 yds out and stopped to look around. The sun was fadeing fast and I figured I better take the shot now or loose him in the darkness.. My rifle was just a tadd out of position so I had to make a small adjustment with the shooting sticks and while doing so I hit some crusted snow with the bottom of the sticks which made a tinney sound. The coyote heard it too and did'nt like it one bit and was off like a bolt off lightening into the drainage...LOL
This stand took me over a hour to bring this difficult coyote in and alot was learned from him so I guess it was a even trade, I got another piece added to the puzzle and the coyote got to live another day..

Moral of the story is difficult coyotes canbe called in if you take the time and have a good sound library..

"With a hand call you are limited to what sounds you can make so by playing them over and over is just makeing a coyote more difficult to call next time..."
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 15, 2010, 08:52 AM:
 
"I know one thing when a caller moves into a area with the truck and there is a coyote off in the distance and spots the truck it will let out some warning howls to the others and its just like a chain reaction all the way down a valley."
-----------------------------------
Medical science has come a long way in the past ten years. Doctors can cure a lot of things now that were unheard of a few years ago. Problem is, they just can't FIX stupid.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on December 15, 2010, 09:08 AM:
 

quote:

---

With a hand call you are limited to what sounds you can make so by playing them over and over is just makeing a coyote more difficult to call next time..."

---

quote:

---

You just did that with an electronic call. And sounds to me like you used up your entire "sound library" in the process.

---

Nope!!! I can still come back later and do it all over and the coyote may come easier the next time... You just don't get it!!!!!!

I'm trying to get you pointed in the right direction with out haveing to break any promises..

Shaw: Awhile back when I was going to get my WT I asked you what sounds you recomended to check with on my list of what I had picked out. You gave me a couple prey distress sounds and one or two coyote vocals and that was it.. After useing my WT for a few years now the list you gave me tells me how limited you are on how to use them properly...
One thing you failed to understand with youre WT is that some sounds have to be used with others to paint a picture to bring the difficult coyotes in.
I'm still a "loyal friend" so give me a call sometime and maybe I can help you out.....
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 15, 2010, 09:38 AM:
 
No kidding. The next thing Tim is going to tell us is that he killed every coyote down that valley. I'm waiting patiently for the next fable.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on December 15, 2010, 09:47 AM:
 

quote:

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Nope!!! I can still come back later and do it all over and the coyote may come easier the next time... You just don't get it!!!!!!

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quote:

---

It's amazing how a coyote will howl everytime it spots a truck in the distance.

---

quote:

---

It's even more amazing that you can stop your truck right away and have no problem calling coyotes who are warning all the other coyotes of in the area

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quote:

---

But I guess it is like you said before you ususally call coyotes in areas where you can see all of them and their reactions to the sounds being used and to your moving your caller around.

---

quote:

---

I'm still waiting on you to let us know what mistakes us stupid people are making so we can become better callers?

---

Not saying anyone is stupid just saying you don't know from lack of exspeariance....
Everyone makes mistakes, even I do from time to time. Learn from youre mistakes rather than keeping on doing them.. Even if a mistake is made there still are things you can get away with depending on how bad the mistake was and the coyote you made the mistake with....

Just because a coyote barks or warns other coyotes dose'nt mean the game is over. The coyote is just uncomfortable with something you may have down and you can still turn the stand around in youre favor like give a lonesome howl for example. This tells the coyote there is another coyote in the area.

I don't have all the answers or can give you the answers you need cause each stand I make is different from the next and each coyote is different. Its up to you to figure them out, just take youre time and think about whats takeing place and if something dose'nt work then try something else either in sounds or just leave the stand and come in from another direction and different time...
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 15, 2010, 10:45 AM:
 
"Not saying anyone is stupid just saying you don't know from lack of exspeariance....
Everyone makes mistakes, even I do from time to time. Learn from youre mistakes rather than keeping on doing them.. Even if a mistake is made there still are things you can get away with depending on how bad the mistake was and the coyote you made the mistake with....

Just because a coyote barks or warns other coyotes dose'nt mean the game is over. The coyote is just uncomfortable with something you may have down and you can still turn the stand around in youre favor like give a lonesome howl for example. This tells the coyote there is another coyote in the area.

I don't have all the answers or can give you the answers you need cause each stand I make is different from the next and each coyote is different. Its up to you to figure them out, just take youre time and think about whats takeing place and if something dose'nt work then try something else either in sounds or just leave the stand and come in from another direction and different time.."

Man Tim got to hand it to ya, you are a legend in your own mind.lol

Who the hell do you think you're talking too? It sure as hell ain't the greenie callers on Predator Masters. Most of the guys on here have more calling experience in there little finger than you do in your whole body.

I never thought I would need hip boots to be a predator caller but to wade through all your bullshit I guess I need to rethink that.

Good Hunting Chad

[ December 15, 2010, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 15, 2010, 10:46 AM:
 
I have no idea who coyote down is but I like him already for some reason.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 15, 2010, 11:15 AM:
 
Fellas...

You just have to understand that Tim is no ordinary predator caller, he has the ability to "mind control" coyotes with his WT caller and his knowledge of their thought process, it's uncany!

quote:

---

Yep! The coyote was still laying on top of the ridge and about 3/4 of a mile away..

---

My question is why did you even try calling this coyote when you could have easily just shot it from that distance? From 3/4mile away you could have put one through it's ear just to mess with him!
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on December 15, 2010, 11:25 AM:
 
I thought it was prairie dogs that let out a warning call to the rest.. sounds like a target identification problem?????
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 15, 2010, 01:28 PM:
 
"I thought it was prairie dogs that let out a warning call to the rest.. sounds like a target identification problem????? "
-----------------------------------------
6mm284,
Tim is only trying to impress his mentor, but he is failing badly I fear. Wiley E must be cringing in disgust when he reads the crap old Tim posts here. Don't get me wrong though, Tim works his tail off out there. I appreciate what he is trying to do, put the poor guy just don't quite get it.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 15, 2010, 01:47 PM:
 
Tim A don't foprget many of those coyotes will trust their "eye's" as much and at times more than their ears. We are talking call shy coyotes correct?

The comment that a coyote doesn;t like mouth calls becuase you need to take air is just plain and simple out there!

We all know it has to be the magic of the WT correct? LOL.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2010, 01:57 PM:
 
There is no doubt that TA has improved his game. I have to give him credit for that.

I wonder if he has an attitude like Robb Krause, (maybe coyote down?) in that he does things in forums "because he can"? He has the ability to push many buttons. Especially those that have hunted with him, like AR, Roade, Unknown, Geordie, Scott, etc.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 02:01 PM:
 

quote:

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Tim is only trying to impress his mentor, but he is failing badly I fear. Wiley E must be cringing in disgust when he reads the crap old Tim posts here. Don't get me wrong though, Tim works his tail off out there. I appreciate what he is trying to do, put the poor guy just don't quite get it.

---

Not really Rich. Just letting Scott know his time was'nt wasted on me like it was with some others... If a caller wants to believe that coyotes can't be called towards a road or be called after they have been shot at or called by another caller that messed up on them thats fine with me, but I know different...
My numbers have gone up every year and my numbers at home have gone up as well. I got it but you did'nt...LOL
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 15, 2010, 02:11 PM:
 
"My numbers have gone up every year and my numbers at home have gone up as well. I got it but you did'nt...LOL [Smile]"
------------------------------
Tim,
If my health would allow it, my coyote numbers would far exceed yours. Why? Because I have forgotten more about coyotes than YOU will ever even LEARN. Wise people keep trying to help you but it ain't working. Just keep on waving your WT around like a dang flag, at least the dumb and the blind coyotes will still come in for ya.
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 15, 2010, 02:19 PM:
 
Tim

You've got me wondering about something. Since you do not know me, how do you know I have a lack of calling experience, or you have more experience than I do? I would never assume such a thing if I was you.
I'm sure glad your trying to help me out here with all of your wisdom, but I'm not quite sure you are who I would choose to be mentored by. I bet it was hard to admit that even you make a mistake from time to time. I was beginning to get the feeling you were perfect the way you talk down to all of us stupid people who lack in knowlege compared to you.
How do you know there is always a coyote there when you are calling? Is it like the guy with a thermos who, when he puts in ice tea it stays cold, and when he puts in hot coffee it stays warm. Just how does that thermos know?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 02:20 PM:
 

quote:

---

Tim A don't foprget many of those coyotes will trust their "eye's" as much and at times more than their ears. We are talking call shy coyotes correct?

The comment that a coyote doesn;t like mouth calls becuase you need to take air is just plain and simple out there!

---

quote:

---

they don't fear what they can't see.

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quote:

---

You've got me wondering about something. Since you do not know me, how do you know I have a lack of calling experience, or you have more experience than I do? I would never assume such a thing if I was you.
I'm sure glad your trying to help me out here with all of your wisdom, but I'm not quite sure you are who I would choose to be mentored by. I bet it was hard to admit that even you make a mistake from time to time. I was beginning to get the feeling you were perfect the way you talk down to all of us stupid people who lack in knowlege compared to you.
How do you know there is always a coyote there when you are calling? Is it like the guy with a thermos who, when he puts in ice tea it stays cold, and when he puts in hot coffee it stays warm. Just how does that thermos know?

---

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
they don't fear what they can't see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last time I checked...I couldnt see my scent.

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Well I see some of you are getting board so now we have to play the pick the sentence apart game.

Well if you set up youre stand properly to begin with you should'nt have to worry about the coyotes picking up youre scent. Right Shaw!!!!
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 15, 2010, 03:05 PM:
 
What do you really keep inside that bucket when you're out there calling Tim? Pixie dust?
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 15, 2010, 03:13 PM:
 
Tim

If someone asks a question about what you posted, does that make them stupid?
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 15, 2010, 03:19 PM:
 
This is a great thread...

I'm learning new things by the minute! I'm going to save this whole post to my files!!!! LOL

If a coyote is shy does it's face turn red when it hears a ecaller other than a WT?

Are shy coyotes better lovers?

Edited: to ask the important questions...

[ December 15, 2010, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2010, 03:31 PM:
 
Wrong, niko. This is just pure entertainment. And, for free!

Good hunting. LB

We have a new player on board. Reads and participates, which I like to see. He's from Colorado and he displays his email address, always a plus. He seems to know stuff, writes with confidence, but does anybody know who he is? I dropped a hint, which he ignored, yet he doesn't miss anything Tim posts. I'm curious.
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 15, 2010, 03:40 PM:
 
Leonard

I didn't ignore your hint. I sent you a email earlier today.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 03:56 PM:
 

quote:

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If my health would allow it, my coyote numbers would far exceed yours. Why? Because I have forgotten more about coyotes than YOU will ever even LEARN.

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Rich: Yes they should. You just happen to live in a area or closer to a area with higher coyote population. You have'nt been calling much longer than me so what was forgotten was'nt very much..
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 03:59 PM:
 

quote:

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If someone asks a question about what you posted, does that make them stupid?

---

Most times NO but then again it depends on who is asking..
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 15, 2010, 04:25 PM:
 
"I don't want to be anyones mentor just want to help a little if I can."

Well you can relax now because you certainly have met your goal of being of "little help".
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2010, 04:36 PM:
 
For those who have volunteered a guess as to who "coyote down" is; you are all wrong, including me. As it happens he and I have met at one of the big contests, he was kind enough to remind me of it. Thanks for the email!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 15, 2010, 06:26 PM:
 
Tim they can fear what they can't see! Meaning if they hear a coyote they better see one or some of those call shy coyotes won't come close at all.

The advantage of a decoy dog at certain times and the reason they come in agressive, they can see what they believe is a coyote.

If they warning bark and know something is over there why would a lone howl bring them running to that direction? Curious maybe, but they want to see a coyote. If one is not present then many times your left with a long shot or best leaving them be.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 08:43 PM:
 

quote:

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Tim they can fear what they can't see! Meaning if they hear a coyote they better see one or some of those call shy coyotes won't come close at all.

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Yes and no. Coyotes are pretty good at judgeing where the sound is comeing from and can pin-point it with-in 15-50 ft. of it source... Correct????? Now if the stand is set up so a coyote cannot see where the sound is comeing from it will have to move in closer to the caller or crest a nearby hill to look down to where the caller is. This is what I call a dead coyote... When I set up along a drainage I will have most of the high ground so I can see the approaching coyote first or have a nearby side hill thats with-in rifle range for any that want to just take a peak over the top to see whats there... Not all of my coyotes but most of them approach the caller head on or if they come in from the side they will move to the center of the sound cone and then look up. once again its a dead coyote... There is another way I bring these difficult coyotes in but I won't discuss it on the internet...

Here is a pic of one of my stands from last week. On this stand I had a 20 mph wind so I had to get down into the drainage that ran East and west and I called with the wind ( this type of stand was reconmended to me by a friend)which was out of the S-E. The coyote came into the stand just like I planned and I shot it just as it reached the far ice on the stock pond and was almost into my scent cone..

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/12-15-2010008.jpg[/IMG]]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/12-15-2010006.jpg[/IMG]]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 08:49 PM:
 
Here is a two part vidio from my trip some may find interesting.. [URL= [/ URL]]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2010, 10:29 PM:
 
Who was it that said that you can't call coyotes to the road? I guess it depends on where you are and how you do it? As a matter of fact, I have called thousands of coyotes, (literally) to the road, and killed a fair share of them. I must be missing something?

Good hunting. LB

By the way, Tim. Calling in a bunch of deer is rather common, as well.

[ December 15, 2010, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2010, 11:03 PM:
 

quote:

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Who was it that said that you can't call coyotes to the road? I guess it depends on where you are and how you do it? As a matter of fact, I have called thousands of coyotes, (literally) to the road, and killed a fair share of them. I must be missing something?

Good hunting. LB

By the way, Tim. Calling in a bunch of deer is rather common, as well.

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Page 1 post 16

( maybe thats the problem people only remember the parts they want to and forget or ignor the rest of what is said)

Yes its pretty common to call deer or other critters into a stand.. The wife did'nt edit the deer part out so you got it as a added bonus. Kinda cool though...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2010, 01:10 AM:
 
That would be our friend, coyote down. Well, I have checked his credentials and he's entitled to make a statement about roads representing danger to a coyote. As a general rule. But, he didn't say they can't be called to a road....except maybe Kansas?

Besides, he probably has no idea how I hunt, in this context, And, depending on how you define road and take it to mean near, within sight of a road and they frequently cross the road to get where I am. At night.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on December 16, 2010, 03:39 AM:
 
Tim,,He who speaks the most often knows the least. I try to avoid proving that.

[ December 16, 2010, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 16, 2010, 03:48 AM:
 
Well Tim, at least we know you can call deer in. Heck, even I can do that in NJ!

Well, whose to say you didn't kill that coyote someplace else and dragged it toward the highway and hung it on the fence??

Just kidding! Good video. You wouldn't believe how different the areas we hunt are. Sometimes I can't see 20 yards ahead of me with all the brush.
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on December 16, 2010, 04:46 AM:
 
R.Shaw
no
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 16, 2010, 12:02 PM:
 
Wow.............Interesting ride, this thread has become.

Tim;
I was yanking your chain a while back about volume & I think that due to the differences in the areas that we hunt, the point was lost. You're hunting some seriously open areas where if a little volume is good, a lot of volume must be great. I'm hunting much tighter cover where volume can be overdone, causing a coyote to hang up 50 or 75 yards out and not be seen or offer a shot op.

Different areas, different styles. If what you're doing works for you & you're having fun........go with it; but remember, what works for you might not be so great for someone else with different circumstances.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 16, 2010, 12:57 PM:
 
Youre proably right Koko. I know when I hunted with Rich and a few others in AZ. they liked to start off a stand with softer sounds.. I do the same here but I have the volume cranked up to get that softer sound out there a bit..
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 16, 2010, 02:26 PM:
 
Tim,
You were born in St. Olaf, MN correct? I believe that I recall Rose Nyland mentioning your name a time or two. They have dial phones up there now, or at least that is my understanding.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 16, 2010, 03:00 PM:
 
Tim when you play a deer in distress there going to come, remember muley doe's are not very bright LOL. The most inquisitive deer there are, in fact howl down into a cedar draw and watch the tops of those ridges and see how many show themselves. Better yet play a fawn in distress in May and June and see what kind of reaction you get from them LOL.

I have found coyotes easier to call to a road if your placed in an area whjere they can't see the road to your location, but yep some will come close to the road, don't know if they fit the call shy montra though LOL.

Remember the young and dumb ones are the first to die!

[ December 16, 2010, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 16, 2010, 06:36 PM:
 
Yep youre right about the deer comeing to a call.. White-tails will also show up pretty easey as well.. I just got two deer distress sounds on my WT last week and since I had a empty stand I wanted to try them out on the deer. [URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Wildlife/th_ BigBuck11_24_2009_175843.jpg[/IMG]][/URL]

quote:

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Remember the young and dumb ones are the first to die!

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Yes but it also depends on what age group you call to first. This last trip I only called in two pups with the rest being adults. 90% had to be tossed due to mange.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 16, 2010, 06:44 PM:
 

quote:

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Tim,
You were born in St. Olaf, MN correct? I believe that I recall Rose Nyland mentioning your name a time or two. They have dial phones up there now, or at least that is my understanding.

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No Rich! Yes we have phones now, we also got cell phone service a few years back. Some of the old timers are still set in there ways though and still useing smoke signals. That reminds me I put a guy on hold yesterday, I better go check and see if he is still there..LOL

By youre question above are you hinting that you want to come visit or do you want me to call you?????
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on December 16, 2010, 10:45 PM:
 
Damn,how'd I miss this thread, Im downtown bein' waterboarded by the Census Nazi's and it turns into 5 pages. And its worse than the waterboarding.
For the love of God, what is the answer Wily E.?
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 17, 2010, 06:44 AM:
 
Nice buck in the video.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 17, 2010, 07:36 AM:
 
"By youre question above are you hinting that you want to come visit or do you want me to call you?????"
---------------------------
Well, not really. I was watching a re-run of the "Golden Girls" when I heard Rose mention her cousin Tim back in St. Olaf.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 17, 2010, 09:38 AM:
 
With your hearing, could have been anything about anybody. Could be my uncle in St Cloud, he doesn't keep in touch much. Or, did he die, back in '93? I know this much, Minneesota is God's country, fer sure! If you like 30 below.

Good hunting. LB

edited for spelling

[ December 17, 2010, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 17, 2010, 09:58 AM:
 
Minnesota's God's Country if you like 30 below, tons of snow, ice, lots of people, limited quality hunting opportunities, giant mosquitos, flat country, a crappy football team, collapsing stadiums, a has-been quarterback, and lots and lots of hunting/firearms regulations. Other than that it's a great place.
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 17, 2010, 10:18 AM:
 
And TA17 lives there too...Does it get any better?
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 17, 2010, 10:38 AM:
 

 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 17, 2010, 11:01 AM:
 
That 30 below never bothered me much, walking the mile and a half to St Helena's where I could get my knuckles rapped, which helped stimulate when they were froze, alleviating the gangrene onset. Really hurt, but I deserved it, and Sister Rufina gladly obliged. She went through a lot of rulers, & too bad she didn't know about beating me on the bottoms of my frozen feet! But, I'm sure she loved me.

Never learned much, after sixth grade when I started public jr. hi school. Those were the days!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 17, 2010, 04:13 PM:
 
Yep Its really bad here. Over 2 ft. of snow, no wind and coyote tracks in most every section, and a nice 10 degrees also.. What more could a guy ask for..
OOOOPS. forgot to mention the 7 dead coyotes and one red fox in the back of the truck...

On a side note we hit the coyotes pretty hard last year and it seems this year we have just as many again or more... They must be comeing in from the Dakotas or perhaps Iowa..
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 17, 2010, 05:55 PM:
 
This calling video is one of the very best that I have seen.
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6322981/
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 17, 2010, 06:16 PM:
 
Yep Rich,

That video should up everyones game immediately. Lots of information to digest though might have to watch it a couple of times to get all the nuggets.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on December 18, 2010, 04:49 PM:
 
See that speck out there at 6700 yards. That's a coyote. How I'm posed to call that in. - Kirby
Call shy! Lol!
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 19, 2010, 02:23 AM:
 
Didn't this train wreck of a thread start out with a question......or something??????

HELLO??????
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on December 19, 2010, 06:59 AM:
 
Yea it did. It serms that, per usual, Scott farted and ran out of the room, leaving the rest of us to argue over who did it.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 19, 2010, 05:09 PM:
 
Smithers;
Good to see you're back!! You're not violating any of your terms of parole or anything hanging around with this bunch, are you??
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 20, 2010, 09:10 AM:
 
This thread has certainly taken a lot of interesting twists and turns since the original question was presented regarding what calls create more "call shy" coyotes.

My original question was intentionally generic in hopes of generating further discussion which it has.

Please don't assume that since I asked the question that I am certain of the answer because I'm not. I have a few theories on the topic based on numerous observations but these theories would be a difficult to prove.

As has been correctly stated, there is many variables to consider before we can isolate a single factor and credit a certain reaction to it.

As was mentioned, perhaps "tool" is a better term than "method" when referencing hand calls vs. e-calls.

To help frame this discussion, let's again mention some of the variables that we would have to eliminate from the equation in order to make a direct comparison between hand calls and e-calls in regards to educating coyotes. Yes, I know that would be virtually impossible in real life but humor me here for the sake of the discussion.

Here is a short list of those variables that would have to be isolated to compare hand calls to e-calls.

1. Being seen or heard by coyotes while we are approaching the calling stand.

2. Trying to pull coyotes to a source of danger which for the sake of this discussion would be any area of human disturbance that poses a threat to a coyote such as a prominent road where hunters frequently shoot at coyotes or other area of human disturbance.

3. How many times certain coyotes have been called in and shot at.

4. Days when coyotes, for whatever reason, are simply unresponsive and we blame it on "call shy" coyotes.

5. Prey / food availability in some areas vs. other areas creating different levels of coyote response ranging from aggressive to passive.

6. Coyotes that have a pre-determined direction in mind that is in the opposite direction rather than approaching the call.

7. Unnatural stand selection and lack of camoflauge allowing coyotes to see an unnatural human form.

8. Unnatural hand call sounds vs. natural hand call sounds. Not everyone sounds the same.

For the sake of argument, let's just assume that all things are equal and we are down to comparing whether hand calls or e-calls would educate more coyotes due to a HIGHER PERCENTAGE of those coyotes being able to differentiate between live sounds and reproduced sounds.

Yes, as was correctly pointed out, I too agree based on the shear numbers of e-calls out there and the incompetant hands they tend to fall into, that we will most certainly have more e-call shy coyotes for that reason alone but that's not what I'm after here. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL (assuming that's possible), WHICH WOULD EDUCATE MORE COYOTES HAND CALLS OR E-CALLS?

Someone mentioned a dog's ability to recognize the noise of an individual vehicle. This is a very important point to consider for this discussion from the standpoint of what coyotes hear that we don't hear. Stop and think about a couple more things. Coyotes can hear mice under 2' of snow. If you were only able to call to a coyote one time at a half mile, they can detect the origination of that sound to within 30' at a half mile. I don't think any of us can begin to understand just how well they hear and the aspects of sound that they can detect.

Based on my experiences and the experiences of those I trust and respect, I will place the following sounds in the order of what I believe is their authenticity to the highest percentage of coyotes.

1. Vocal chords whether it be howling or distress calls. I would include lip and hand sounds in this category.

2. Diaghram calls which I believe come the closest to the actual reproduction of the actual sounds we are emulating next to our own vocal chords or lip squeaks.

3. Open reed hand calls.

4. Closed reed hand calls.

5. Electronic calls.

Yes, I know all the advantages of e-calls or I wouldn't own one. Getting the sound away from you which, as someone pointed out, has to be weighed against added exposure to get the call positioned, a larger bank of sounds, more volume, etc.

So to get directly to my opinion on this topic, I am totally convinced that there is underlying sound with recorded sounds that is detectable to coyotes but not to the human ear. All things being equal, I believe you will have a higher percentage of coyotes that will discern between e-callers and live animals than someone who is very good with handcalls and live animals.

Another way of putting it, all other things being equal (volume, stand selection, approaching the stand, etc.) I think Les Johnson and Randy Anderson are going to call a higher percentage of the coyotes with handcalls than someone using either a Fox Pro or WT. To take it a step further, I think someone who is really good at duplicating these sounds with their vocal chords or lips will call an even higher percentage of the coyotes than hand calls.

Stop and think about the concept of the "silent dog whistle" before you take a position.

If you disagree, I would like to hear what you base your opinion on.

~SH~

[ December 20, 2010, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 20, 2010, 09:27 AM:
 
To take this a step further, I have seen some of the worst cases of true "call shy" coyotes anyone can imagine. These are not the coyotes that don't show any interest, these are the coyotes that run like a scalded dog in the opposite direction at the sound of someone blowing a call or playing an e-caller.

Yes, I know you can use a different sound on a different day from a different direction and call many of these coyotes no matter what "tool" you are using. What I am after here is what sounds are the easiest for a higher percentage of coyotes to distinguish as not being real.

Within most coyote's life time, they are going to have more positive experieces with real prey sounds than negative experiences with reproduced prey sounds. For that reason, I believe all coyotes, no matter how "call shy" they are, can be fooled in one way or another. I just happen to believe that e-callers have underlying sounds that give them away to a higher percent of coyotes than someone who is competant with hand calls. E-callers have a volume advantage but they don't have a realism advantage over hand calls with someone who knows what they are doing. I'll stand on that.

~SH~

[ December 20, 2010, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 20, 2010, 09:47 AM:
 
Awesome information!

One question. With your list of most effective tools for calling do you believe that you start getting to a point of diminishing return going towards the better tool and to vocal distress??? As far as distance/wind/terrain goes wont you start seeing fewer responses at a certain point versus the effectivness of the tool being used?? If that makes any sense. Of coarse covering a lot of ground and making double the stands just to make sure your in hearing range of the coyotes would help the vocal calls out but that would also mean a lower percentage of responses versus stands made.

But this all goes back to their hearing and how well they can hear. Im just picturing a average day with 10 mph wind and if a coyote would hear you a mile away with vocals (distress).

I like your threads! Definately make a guy think and learn!

Edit: spelling and add a comment

[ December 20, 2010, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 20, 2010, 11:06 AM:
 
Deleted due to unintentional duplication.

~SH~

[ December 20, 2010, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 20, 2010, 11:09 AM:
 
If I am understanding your question correctly, yes you are weighing reaching more coyotes with volume against the advantages of a quieter more realistic sound. From that standpoint what you gained in sound authenticity you might lose in your inability to reach out there.

To back my assertion, there is one sound that I have never seen a coyote refuse when they could hear it. Unfortunately, it's distance is limited. Sorry but I wouldn't know how to describe it.

Coyote down,

I too have enjoyed your posts.

Leonard, Dave (DAA), & Vic,

I still would like to plan a hunt. Perhaps late season in Nevada? Have to round up some funds first.

~SH~
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 20, 2010, 11:14 AM:
 

quote:

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I am totally convinced that there is underlying sound with recorded sounds that is detectable to coyotes but not to the human ear.

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quote:

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One of the neat things I like about some of the WT sounds is there are more than one type of sound comeing from them..

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quote:

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Can you please explain this one? Are you the Coyote Whisperer or something?

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LOL.. No! Pick out a couple of youre WT distress sounds and give them a good listening too and then you tell me what you hear...
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 20, 2010, 06:10 PM:
 
Alright TA, I listened to about 90 of my distress WT sounds and there's nothing magical about them. Give me a specific sound that the voices in your head say has different "sounds" to it and I'll check that one out. If you meant to imply that the sounds have various harmonics and cadence, then fine, I agree with you. But then again....all sounds have various harmonics and cadence.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 20, 2010, 06:27 PM:
 
Just for purpose of argument, the highest sound any of the newest ecallers produce is way, way less than a coyote can hear!

Loudspeaker horns generally reproduce less than 1/3 of a coyote's hearing frequency range. The WT's and CS24 both use TOA speakers only capable of approximately 12.5Mhz and a coyote can supposedly hear 40Mhz!

So... a hand or voice call that does produce those higher(12.5Mhz and above)frequencies would likely sound more natural to a coyote... just my opinion. Getting those sounds out would mean more stands made closer together to cover a given area. I also believe that calling more along the volume levels of a prey animal would be more natural sounding to a coyote but again would require more stands made closer which isn't always possible or time acceptable. Everything would then become a tradeoff.

The technology is available to reproduce higher frequencies but a tweeter would have to be added to most setups and that would open a whole new can of worms in high frequency noise and sound recording quality. Not sure if it can be justified but I'm sure in time it will be done.

I think picking the right stand and being there at the right time of day is more important. Both experience and luck often play a part in those decisions.

Nikonut
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2010, 07:36 PM:
 
Scott, I don't agree with some of your conclusions, but I don't have the time to get into it right now as I in the frozen north and there are woofs about. Seen them and heard them. I will be coming home Christmas Eve, so maybe after that, I can pose an argument, or two.

As far as getting together, I'm all for it. I have a date in February sometime, one of the border states, can't be more specific right now. But if January works for Dave and Vic, count me in.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 20, 2010, 08:27 PM:
 
Leonard: "Scott, I don't agree with some of your conclusions,..."

Excellent!

Look forward to reading your comments. Please specify night or day calling so I can put your thoughts into proper perspective. Thanks!

Later!

~SH~
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 20, 2010, 10:38 PM:
 
I just want to say I am really glad that Tim is back to discussing coyotes and not business.

Scott, I disagree with your conclusions concerning your rankings of an e-caller. Here are some things to consider as well. You have ecallers that use vocalizations or distress sounds made by real live animals. Where would these sounds fall in your ranking system? Would a recording of a Scott Huber voice howl, be better than Scott Huber blowing on a open reed howler in person?

Are you stating that the "white noise" that is present on an ecaller is causing coyotes to become call shy, rather than the sounds that are playing in an improper set-up, or a missed coyote? To me that is the strongest part of your arguement. I say that not knowing much about how "clear" a sound is out of a quality speaker, or how recordings are cleaned up prior to being sold. Your arguement would be furthered even more by the ADC crowd who favored WT's back in the day, because of the quality of their sound library and the quality of their recordings.

I think it is the sheer number of callers that pressure coyotes on a weekly basis that cause "call shy" coyotes. I wouldn't classify them as call shy though, more "human shy".
 

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Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on December 21, 2010, 05:45 AM:
 
With some testing to the human ear that we did in the past, the voice howls carried to a further distance than the howls from open reed calls with amplifiers.
 

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Posted by albert (Member # 98) on December 21, 2010, 06:17 AM:
 
I would say part of the problem with "call shy" coyotes is we use the sounds that we think sound right to our own ears. Personally I know my ears aren't the best which has been confirmed by the last hearing test I had.

As to what a coyote can hear or not ear I'm not sure. I feel that we tend to over state the ability's of animals versus humans. We as humans don't hear a lot of little sounds when in our human enviroment. We have a lot of white noise, as i type this i am aware of a constant hum from the fan on the computer this certainly would cover up the sound of a mouse scurrying across the floor of this house. Yet I've been out in the woods in a hunting shack and have had no trouble hearing a mouse scurring across the floor there. I do not find it amazing that a coyote can hear a mouse under a couple feet of snow.

What a coyote hears and what it pays attention to could be two different things, i'm not sure. As Scott likes to remind us the coyotes know but they ain't talking.

I know that it is possible to go to an area and have poor success and then return a month later and do quite well doing virtually the same thing? I feel that there are more enviromental factors at play than I pay attetion to.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 21, 2010, 07:04 AM:
 
January would likely work for me. Feb. too, for that matter. My only concern with N. Nevada, a few weeks out, is the snow depth and access. We might need to rethink that a little bit, if the snow keeps coming between now and then.

As far as white noise with e-callers, I'm thinking you have to separate the conversation into the kind of white noise that is actually audible to human ears and the kind that is not (which is what I think Scott is talking about). And then separate it further into recordings vs. play back systems. I'd have to think that not all callers and not all recorded sounds are created equal. I remember some years ago when one call maker came out with a new model that was basically an MP3 player. People were bitching up a storm about the supposed white noise it made during pauses. We've all heard recorded sounds with distortion, background noise, echo etc. There is a continuum, from "clean" to "dirty", with both recordings and play back systems, which will result in a wide range of this white noise (both the audible to human ears kind and the inaudible to human kind that I think Scott refers to).

I've recorded and field tested a lot of e-caller sounds. Some that I have recorded are among the most prolific and successful in the Foxpro library. Sounds that I have recorded, have called in many tens of thousands of animals. In the course of my lifetime shooting jack rabbits and the last ten years or so recording distress sounds, I have heard hundreds of live rabbits screaming. I have recorded many dozens of them. I've field tested a few dozen of these recordings. I may be full of myself, but I "think" I have a better feel than most, for what a "good" recorded rabbit distress should sound like. And by good, I mean productive, a sound that brings in predators.

I say all that, to get to this... What I find interesting about this "white noise" discussion, is that some of the sounds that have been the most productive for me in recent years, are some of the most "dirty". Now, I'm not talking "white noise" or "hiss" of any type. Not that I can hear anyway - I can't hear any of that with any of the sounds I've used since I moved on from JS tape decks a long time ago. But rather, these recordings have a lot of background noise in them. Wind noise, brushing the mic against clothing, bumping it into the animal creating odd noises, some mild distortion from levels being too high in spots, even a breif note of muffled human voice in one spot. Recordings far too "dirty" for commercial use. Someone buying these sounds would be very unhappy with how obviously "dirty" they are. I chose to try them in the field based solely on what I call "emotion" though. Which is how I judge the potential of a distress sound. There are certain cadences, rhythms, tones, whatever that catch my ear and appeal to me based on what I've seen work in the field, but the main ingredient I listen for, is "emotion". So, a few years ago, I took the best emotional sequences I'd recorded from about a dozen different jack rabbits and put them all into a single three minute loop. Aside from the pure emotion, the variety of different rabbits in the loop provides for a variety of cadences and voice tones as it goes, which I sometimes feel might be thought of as multiple possible "triggers", which occasionally a coyote gets "triggered" by (maybe?). This "dirty" but highly "emotional" sound clip I've been using the last few years has been very productive for me. Yet, like I say, the recordings are so contaminated with background noise and artifacts, that no call manufacturer would ever even think about offering them.

So, I find this idea that there is a hidden background noise that coyotes are repelled by, interesting. I don't have nearly the technical knowledge to refute or dispute whether it exists or not. I'm sure it COULD exist, and in varying degrees of intensity. But, I suspect that it's something which COULD be proven, or disproven, one way or the other, without need for opinion, with the right knowledge and equipment. The existence of it, I mean - not whether it has any particular effect on coyotes or not.

But then too, again, the proving or disproving of the existence of this "noise", would have to be taken on a case by case basis, caller to caller, sound to sound. I think?

- DAA
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 21, 2010, 07:53 AM:
 
I know my favorite WT sound that I use 95% of the time when I use it has some back ground noise of some sort in it. If im sitting in the right spot or close enough you can hear it. Im not talking even full volume. Put your head in front of the speaker on the lowest volume and listen close. Push the button and you can tell with most sounds (that have a pause before the sound starts) when its playing even though no "sound" has started yet. Im sure its much more pronounced especially to a coyote at a higher volume. I agree that there are other sounds associated with ecallers that may cue a coyote into a setup but whether or not that is what the coyote picks out when it becomes "call shy" is another thing. What are coyotes that are "call shy" to hand calls picking out?? We have all seen coyotes run from hand calls as well. Is there associated underlying sounds with hand calls as well that they can pick out? The vibration of the reed? who knows
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on December 21, 2010, 09:55 AM:
 
I suspect that what Wiley is getting at is what is NOT present in the sound reproduction versus the content of a sound from a living being or even a "live" performance by blown call.

Dave A - what is the published frequency response of your recording equipment?

What about the reproduction equipment, aka as e-callers?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 21, 2010, 10:21 AM:
 
What causes call shy coyotes?

I'm reading this and thinking back to my JS days and the "dirty" sounds those cassettes had. Still called alot of critters when the local hand callers said they wouldn't work.

I'm also thinking about letting the tape run out in what 30 minutes? In that time the only movement made was to maybe turn the volume up or down. I knew how long I was gonna be there and made sure my stand was comfortable and I could take advantage of any shot oppurtunity. the caller was only 50 feet away from me so I had to be still. I had to stay with one sound and it was too heavy to just pick up and carry the thing all over hill and dale so I made wiser choices to stand selection.

I think the remote has made more coyotes "call shy" than anything else. It's made it look easy and made us lazy, letting the important things slip past new callers.

Of course now that everyone with a gun is a coyote hunter doesn't help either.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 21, 2010, 10:26 AM:
 
Although I have no doubt that there is "white noise" coming from the speaker of even the very best E callers, I doubt that this "noise" has much negative effect on most coyotes.
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 21, 2010, 11:16 AM:
 
The more I read on this and think about it...I'm pretty sure coyotes become call-shy more due to the nut behind the butt, than the sound coming out of the caller.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 21, 2010, 12:05 PM:
 
"The more I read on this and think about it...I'm pretty sure coyotes become call-shy more due to the nut behind the butt, than the sound coming out of the caller."
------------------------------
I agree! Murry Burnham once told me "If we could kill every coyote we call, then there would be no call shy coyotes".
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on December 21, 2010, 03:08 PM:
 
I think something Gerry Blair has said many times applies here: "They all hear, they all react, but they don't all respond". (May not be exact quote but it is close for sure).

Another factor that I believe applies is it is all about timing. The last few weeks I have been making the same exact stand at various times of day, and killed coyotes on the second or third go around, at the same place, using the same sounds as volume.

Nikonut: That is why I have stated several times that the Prairie Blaster is the best sounding ecaller available today. High quality horn in one end, high quality cone in the opposite end, with a high range tweeter in each end of the carry handle. It has a more powerful stereo amplifier than other callers, and it really makes the 24bit sounds do their best. Like Rich says, the coyotes may not care as much as we do, so it is all about preference. I have been having a lot of luck with stereo sounds I make on Goldwave and some are available from Foxpro that are excellent.

Good quality hand/mouth calls in an experienced hunter/caller's possession will continue to work due to the emotion you can put into your calling. If you are too out of shape or have some physical limitations that prohibit you really getting after it with a hand/mouth call, it might not be the best idea for ya.

Good hunting at ya!
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 21, 2010, 03:45 PM:
 

quote:

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Nikonut: That is why I have stated several times that the Prairie Blaster is the best sounding ecaller available today. High quality horn in one end, high quality cone in the opposite end, with a high range tweeter in each end of the carry handle.

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Al, I've never heard a Prairie Blaster but I would agree that is a step in the right direction and probably one of the best out there right now. Even with dual tweeters the frequency range is still limited and more tuned to human hearing.(under 20,000hz?)I'm not sure what the planar speakers on the Gametracks run? Better than the TOA horns and possibly less than the Blaster's tweeters would be my guess.

I hope that someone will develop a more compact unit with higher fidelity and I think it is just a matter of time and demand. The sound recording process will need to become better as well.

I think DAA has put it pretty well that inflection has lots to do with a successful recorded sound... even with noise included. Noise is part of the natural world and I would believe any predator has the ability to key on the frequency range and inflection of a prey animal in distress.

Call shy coyotes are not only a product of electronic calling and over calling but something that naturally occurs due to everyday environmental pressures and also learned behaviors and pecking orders. Just as in people, there are some coyotes that will always hang back and be less aggressive to a call. There are way too many variables to be able to point to one cause and say that is the only factor.

That's my opinion... I sure am enjoying reading everyone else's, too! Great discussion!!!

Nikonut
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2010, 07:09 PM:
 
Yes, we need to switch to studio quality sounds. That is sure to solve the call shy problem.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 21, 2010, 09:59 PM:
 
That's funny Leonard but it won't work. I can see this now, Lady Gaga dancing around and doing coyote calls in the studio... LOL

Well, maybe it will if we as hunters begin using the basics to begin with... that's the premise.

Studio quality sound could be just as important as a super accurate rifle... wait, that's not necessary either! Lots of coyotes fell to those old burned out barrel rifles of yesteryear, hand calls, voice calls, no camo and no antistinkem. All the internet hunting in the world won't teach you what an hour out in the field will.

Maybe setup and understanding really is the answer. It's called skill and determination. If you have call shy coyotes you need to up your game, bottom line!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 21, 2010, 10:36 PM:
 

quote:

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All the internet hunting in the world won't teach you what an hour out in the field will.

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Exactly! Time needs to be spent out in the field and calling to coyotes, they are the ones that are going to teach you something. I know a few guys when they come across a call shy coyote they just give up in a short time and move on rather than spend a little extra time on stand calling to the difficult coyotes..
If a difficult coyote is still sticking around after some time of calling, it may still be possable to call that coyote in, if it was'nt interested it would'nt of stuck around to begin with... As for the runners its hard to say why they took off to begin with, they may have heard or seen you come into the area or perhaps they are out of their terr.. For thses I would just watch what direction they go and just wait a spell and move around on them and try calling again, you maybe surprised on the out come..

Edit to add.
If you have a difficult coyote and the sounds you have on a E-caller or hand call are not working then just reverse it if you have both tools at hand.. In other words if you are howling to a difficult coyote with a hand howler switch to howls on the E-call or viseversa. Give it the impresson there is another coyote around...

[ December 21, 2010, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 22, 2010, 11:34 AM:
 
Back when I first started calling red fox here at home I found that some rabbit distress calls where to over powering, too loud, too deep in sound and it scared the fox more than anything. Then one day while I was at the sporting goods store I picked up a Burham bro.s call which had a higher pitch to it compared to other calls I've tried. I gave this call a good try and found that the sound produced by this call got the fox really excited and they came into my stands more often. Later on I needed to have the reed replaced and got some double JC reeds by mistake from Burham bro.s but I tried them anyway.. I found that the pitch was just as high as the single reeds I used but a little more raspy and this double reed produced more fox than the call with the single reed..
The call made the right sound and had the right pitch and tone that the fox wanted to hear.

A few years back I got back into locateing my coyotes before going into a area to call them .. At home while I was locateing with hand howlers ( did'nt have the WT yet) I found that some of my coyotes would'nt just answer to any ol howler. At the time I was useing a horn howler I got from Rich Cronk and I had coyotes answer back in some areas but not others that I new held coyotes. I did'nt know what was up with that so just for the heck of it I tried howling with another howler, this was one I got from Jerry H... I gave a couple of howls with this howler and I had the coyotes answer back in just a minute or two.. That night I worked my way through the areas I knew held coyotes and I would howl with one howler at first and if I did'nt get a reply I would use another. Out of my bag of howlers the two mentioned above and the Scerry howler gave me the best results. Can't say anyone of them is any better than the other its just each one of them had a sound that the coyote liked at the time.
Rich's howler may have been too loud or sounded more like a big old male and may have intimadated some into not answering back and on some stands it was loud enough to get a response from an older coyote..
Gotta call and have to go get some coyotes be back later to finish..LOL

I'm back! We picked up two more coyotes for the day..

Anyway a friend told me once that he believes some coyotes fear other coyotes. I believe coyotes fear some calls or sounds used and has to do with each coyotes security level..

YOY coyotes have little exsperiance to some sounds and can't tell the difference so they are more egar to respond to calling so thats why so and so hand call works so good for him and so and so E-caller works so well..
Now with the older coyotes some can tell the difference or they are not hearing what they like to trigger them into a response.

This is why I believe a E-caller with good sounds is a better tool, more there to work with..I will also addmit that hand calls come in pretty handy at times when something else is needed.. For the guys that don't use E-callers I suggest that they carry more than one howler and rabbit calls along on stand and don't always pick out the calls that sound good to youre ear, its what the coyote hears that matters...

A dog whistle was also brought up. I happen to have one and it was used when I did my sound loudness tests. You can use all the settings on it and not hear some with the human ear but a sound meter will pick-up all of it. It can also be recorded and put into Gold wave and then compared to other distress sounds and some sounds will reach the bottom and top end of a dog whistle...

[ December 22, 2010, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 23, 2010, 06:04 AM:
 
So in a nutshell Tim your learned not all coyotes are the same or triggered by the same sounds at the same time.

Many things can bring coyotes in, one needs to experiment and find what works best in that area at that time. I have been have success in areas I have known to be called in the past by using not only my e caller but also a mouth call at the same time, in some of these areas I get faster response times than just one or the other I liken it to stero sound and giving more depth, a change those coyotes in that area not accustom to from others. Give them something out of the norm is what I try and do in areas I have known to be called alot.
 

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Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on December 23, 2010, 07:01 AM:
 
Nikonut said:

"The technology is available to reproduce higher frequencies but a tweeter would have to be added to most setups and that would open a whole new can of worms in high frequency noise and sound recording quality. Not sure if it can be justified but I'm sure in time it will be done"

The original Tube WT and The "backpack" model both had tweeters.
And I also believe both these were far better units than those today....sound wise.
When you play them side by side, even us humans with our poor hearing can tell the difference.
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 23, 2010, 08:28 AM:
 
Steve,
The 4 speaker Prairie Blaster sounds better to my ears than the old tube or backpack WT models. That's playing the same WT sounds on both units too. Still, most people nowadays simply don't want to lug around 9 to 13 pounds worth of speakers, except maybe snowgeese and crow guys in the back of a ATV or pickup.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 24, 2010, 08:05 AM:
 
Tom64: "What causes call shy coyotes"

As hard as it is to prevent on these forums, I don't want to get side tracked to the topic of "what causes call shy coyotes". What I'm trying to get at here is which calling "tools" will create more call shy coyotes ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

Once again, for the sake of discussion, let's assume we are doing everything right. We are not being seen or heard entering the calling stand. We are not trying to call coyotes to a source of danger. We are calling from within a coyote's comfort zone. We are not being seen while on the stand. We parked our vehicle out of site. We are calling against the wind. We are calling to coyotes that have been called by others that made the mistakes that we are not making. We are only comparing the sounds we have available to us. The rest of the playing field is level.

Comprende'?

To the coyote ear, based on my observations, I know that SOME OF THEM (not all) can differentiate live prey sounds from reproduced prey sounds. No doubt the better the sound reproduction, the more difficult it will be to differentiate between what is real and what is reproduced for the highest percentage of coyotes.

I don't know if it's "white noise" or something else but I know for a fact there's a difference to some coyotes between live and reproduced sounds.

What I'm trying to get at here, is what will fool the highest percentage of coyotes out there in the most situations.

Ursus21: "The more I read on this and think about it...I'm pretty sure coyotes become call-shy more due to the nut behind the butt, than the sound coming out of the caller."

There's no doubt about that Ursus. What I am after here is what sounds will fool the highest percentage of coyotes that have been burned from the nut behind the butt. Good quote BTW!

To the topic,

In any given coyote calling contest, assuming everyone is being honest (big assumption), only a handful of the very best teams are killing 80% of the coyotes they see that they have access to. My point, even under the best situations with the most experienced callers, there will be coyotes that learn from a negative experience associated with certain sounds. Let's also assume that most contest callers are on the top half of the scale as far as abilities in comparison to the average guy out there trying to call coyotes. With that said, most contests end up killing about 25% to 30% of the coyotes that are seen. That's just for that one contest. Now enter in all the guys blowing a call that really don't know what they're doing on a more regular basis and consider how many times these same coyotes get screwed with. Leonard's account of the rancher setting the Fox Pro on the hood of his truck is not as rare as we would like to believe. I know guys that do the same thing at night. Also keep in mind all the coyotes we don't see. With that in mind, it's probably safe to say that only 10% of the coyotes that are called in are actually killed.

Heck, just watch how many coyotes are missed by the "so called" experts on TV. Is it any wonder why every year there is a higher percentage of coyotes that have obviously been messed with?

Those who disagree with this observation are probably not calling in areas of moderate coyote populations that are being heavily called by others. Some places have so many coyotes that based on the law of averages there will always be a certain number of coyotes that respond creating an illusion of how many coyotes are responding in contrast to the coyotes that are actually out there that are not responding. You don't know what you don't see. That's prolly why you have so many coyote calling rock stars in areas from Southern Kansas south to Mexico.

The number of coyote calling experts is directly proportionate to the coyote population in the particular area they are hunting.

ADC men in many states will all tell you that they have really had to change up their calling strategies to kill more problem coyotes. A lot are resorting to more long range shooting, decoy dogs, spot and stalk, etc. due to the number of coyotes out there that have heard everything.

If coyotes could not differentiate between the actual sounds and recorded sounds, we would still be able to call most of these coyotes in with common strategies. Someone mentioned that ADC programs have went to electronic calls due to the sound library available and that's true which again makes my point. If "call shy" coyotes that have been subjected to rabbit recordings couldn't differentiate between live rabbits and recordings, we wouldn't need a big sound library would we?

I'll give you two observations to consider and you can tell me how I am mis-reading this. I mentioned this example before so I apologize for my redundancy but this observation is really important to this particular discussion.

I had a coyote complaint where a coyote came into an urban area, went into a lambing shed, and killed and consumed a pregnant goat. I knew exactly what killed this goat because I had coyote tracks coming and going in the mud. Incidentally, the coyote tracks leaving were sunk into the mud further than the coyote tracks that came on the same trail. If I was a betting man, I would bet this coyote was mangy which would explain it's bold behavior. Based on the tracks, it didn't take long to establish a direction of approach.

Shortly after that, I called the area where I figured the coyotes were coming from. My vehicle was out of sight and on a commonly traveled road near a town. Nothing out of the ordinary with the vehicle. The area that I figured the coyotes were staying, was out of sight of the vehicle because it was blocked by gravel hills. Our approach to our stand was out of sight of the area I figured the coyotes were staying. There was no way these coyotes heard or saw our approach. When I reached the stand I voice howled and the coyotes answered me with a long drawn out answer as they have thousands of times before. Still nothing out of the ordinary. Their howling response was blocked by the hills and definitely not a straight line of sound. My next sound was a young female howl out of the WT at full volume. This was followed by a short pause then a couple coyotes started warning barking at us ON A DIRECT LINE OF SOUND. This told me they immediately moved to the top of the hills and were now warning barking at the recorded sound after they had just answered my voice howl.

So you tell me you electonic calling wizards (LOL!), how do you explain that? Hmmm???

These coyotes never saw us, they never heard us, they never smelled us. All the normal "call shy" variables were not part of this equation. This was confirmed with their normal, confident, comfortable response to my voice howl preceding the recorded sound of a female coyote. If there is not a difference, then how do you explain the OBVIOUS, UNDENIABLE difference in reaction? I don't think there is anything I overlooked here so have at it if you disagree.

I am no stranger to "call shy" coyotes. Seen their reactions many times to common calling strategies. I have to admit I was truly blown away by this as was the avid coyote hunting professional that was with me. The WT sounds are as high of quality recordings as you can get. More importantly, we are not talking about prey sounds, we are talking about differentiation of coyote vocalizations. There's nothing more common to a coyote than hearing and responding to other coyotes.

We found out shortly after this incident that a neighbor had been messing with these coyotes on a regular basis with his Fox Pro and sometimes he didn't even take a gun. He just called them in to watch them. So why did they respond so normally to my voice howl and not to the recorded WT howl, which to my ear is one of their best recordings, if coyotes cannot differentiate between the two? Hmmm???

You can disagree with me all you want but you better have an explanation for this ACTUAL OBSERVATION if you disagree.

Here's another observation for you to ponder. In literally hundreds of examples, I have never had a coyote turn tail and run at the sound of a lip squeak if they could hear it. The vast majority will respond in a positive manner. When I think about it, I'm not sure I have ever seen a coyote refuse it if they could hear it. I don't know what coyotes think MY LIP SQUEAK is, but I do know that the vast majority, regardless of shyness for any reason, are attracted to the sound. I may have had some coyotes not show any interest for whatever reason, I can't remember them now, but I know I have never seen a coyote turn tail and run at the sound of a lip squeak. How do you explain that? Do you honestly think that many coyotes would all react the same way if they were listening to a recorded lip squeak? I don't.

Fire away electronic defenders. Hehe!

Keep in mind one other important factor. I have hunted my whole life in the open plains of the Dakota's where we get to observe a lot more coyote reactions than those who call in heavier cover. Those who call in heavy cover only see the coyotes they kill, not the ones who refused what they had to offer.

~SH~

[ December 24, 2010, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2010, 08:09 AM:
 
I got too much to do right now. I don't disagree with you, Scott. Basic statement, electronic sounds make call shy coyotes. True?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 24, 2010, 08:25 AM:
 
L: "I got too much to do right now."

No problem. Enjoy your hunt. I'll try to keep a mostly civil tongue. LOL!

L: "Basic statement, electronic sounds make call shy coyotes. True?"

More accurately describing my point, I believe electronic sounds are capable of making call shy coyotes because, based on my observations and the observations of those I trust and respect, I believe a higher percentage of the coyotes can identify them as not being real in comparison to someone who is good with vocalizations or hand calls.

After being burned repeatedly, I think it is easier for a higher percentage of coyotes to differentiate between a live rabbit and an electronic recording of a live rabbit as compared to a live rabbit and someone who is really good at imitating a live rabbit with their own vocal chords or a hand call.


~SH~

[ December 24, 2010, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 24, 2010, 09:18 AM:
 
To surmise my response, e-callers make everyone an expert and are readily available. If hand calls were all they've heard, then something different like my old JS512 can trigger a positive response.

I grew up around some guys who made their own calls and were pretty accomplished at killing coyotes. I too used hand calls and then finally tried the JS caller with greater success in the same areas for awhile.

In your example, you said yourself they had been harrassed by an idiot with a FP. Do you think it would have been different if the guy was voice howling instead of using a FP?

I love your post's because they make us think and I'm not arguing with you just thinking outloud.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 24, 2010, 09:29 AM:
 

quote:

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Shortly after that, I called the area where I figured the coyotes were coming from. My vehicle was out of sight and on a commonly traveled road near a town. Nothing out of the ordinary with the vehicle. The area that I figured the coyotes were staying, was out of sight of the vehicle because it was blocked by gravel hills. Our approach to our stand was out of sight of the area I figured the coyotes were staying. There was no way these coyotes heard or saw our approach. When I reached the stand I voice howled and the coyotes answered me with a long drawn out answer as they have thousands of times before. Still nothing out of the ordinary. Their howling response was blocked by the hills and definitely not a straight line of sound. My next sound was a young female howl out of the WT at full volume. This was followed by a short pause then a couple coyotes started warning barking at us ON A DIRECT LINE OF SOUND. This told me they immediately moved to the top of the hills and were now warning barking at the recorded sound after they had just answered my voice howl.

So you tell me you electonic calling wizards (LOL!), how do you explain that? Hmmm???

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I'll take a stab at it..
You said the rancher was useing a F-P caller and you a WT. They are not the same unless the farmer had WT sounds on his F-P. You got warning barks when you howled with the WT. Years ago I always thought or from what I read the game was up when this happened so I would leave and call someplace else.. Later I figured it out thats its just warning barks, meaning the coyote or coyotes are not comfortable with the given situation. If I know that my approach to the calling area and set up was perfect then I would continue to call to them and find a sound or sounds to turn them around, maybe sit for a little while and let things quiet down and then start in on them again. Without being there its difficult to give the right answer and there maynot be one but there are alot of things that canbe done before I give up.. Lip squeaks or mouse distress is one sound that coyotes hear in the wild more than any other distress sound and I may have also used this sound to turn the coyote around they feel comfortable with it..

The other day I called a Mn. coyote up out of a creek with heavey cover useing howls. But the coyote did'nt want to leave the edge of the cover. I gave it some different rabbit distress sounds and the coyote seemed to be intimadated by them for what ever reason. I gave the coyote another howl and then switched to vole mouse and game was back on. I believe all a caller can do is try to find out what a coyotes security level is and then go from there on what sounds you need to use to get them in the right mood... Sometimes non-aggressive works some times more aggressive..
One last thing you used two different coyote howls telling the mangey coyote there are now two coyotes present this may have put the coyote in fear mode and thus the warning barks..
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 24, 2010, 11:06 AM:
 
I know for dang sure that an e-caller can make for 'call shy' coyotes. Heck, most of the ones I'm targeting for the 1st time of the season are already 'shy', due to negative human interaction of some flavor...
Case in point. On one particular block of land I hunt on (2000acres), I can usually pull a couple coyotes out to the call & get 'em shot before deer season begins.
With the onset of deer season, every swingin' dick with a deer tag is taking pop shots at these local coyotes and they invariably take a few out of my 'fun pool'. This pressure makes for most any daytime calling stand to be a complete waste of time. But at night, I'm finding that desptie the daytime pressure & amount of humans trampling the woods, these same 'shy' coyotes are quite willing to come to the call under the cover of darkness. And for that, I'm GLAD! (A night stand here & there during deer season keeps the blood pumpin'.) Off on a tangent there, so back to negative human interaction as it pertains to e-caller sounds.
When I get a coyote killed on that land, naturally I'll let the farmer know! To that end, his farm hands learn of it & have since taken to calling 'over my boot tracks', so to speak. Out they go with a PowerDogg from the local Gander Mt. and a coon light to 'shine em'...
Well, after a couple nights of being harassed by lowsy sounds from poorly chosen stand locations, my 'fun pool' of coyotes don't like to play with me, NO MO'!
'Call shy' to the 'nth degree. And to add insult to injury, I later hear from the farm hands that "we tried EVERY sound and NUTHIN worked. They just barked at us."

Fan-friggin'-tastic job of making the challenge of calling these coyotes all the harder!

Honestly, I can't blame the young guys for trying and can't ask them to NOT hunt the land they work, so I'm subtly trying to impress upon them the notion that callin' coyotes ain't like it is on TV. And to maybe hold off with the 'complete rock block Powerdogg symphony stands' til I can get up there so we can hunt together Not because I'm some kinda great hunter, but to increase our odds of success & enjoy the experience TOGETHER...

Anyhoo, come January, just about my only luck with getting those coyotes to 'play' has been to howl on a full sized open reed howler & wait for damn near an hour (or more). By that time, a coyote might crawl back in it's skitzy pelt & come on over for a look-ee-loo. And it's prolly safe to surmise that the active mating season during Jan/Feb is helping my odds at getting a crack at one by using howls...

So, at the very least I've learned that patience on stand IS a virtue to realizing some success with 'e-caller shy' coyotes...
 

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Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on December 24, 2010, 11:17 AM:
 
Stand in a room with a guy playing a saxophone. The sound quality is alot different than a recording.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 24, 2010, 11:29 AM:
 

quote:

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Stand in a room with a guy playing a saxophone. The sound quality is alot different than a recording.

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quote:

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My next sound was a young female howl out of the WT at full volume.

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quote:

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I never thought the game was up for calling these coyotes. I'm sure hand calls from a different direction would have done the trick. I had to know what I was dealing with first.

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Yup..... I also believe you could do the same with the E-caller..

Edit to add: Thats why we should do a hunt together sometime. I can get a refresher course and maybe you could pick up a small piece to the puzzle from youre student..

Have a Merry Christmas Scott....

[ December 24, 2010, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 24, 2010, 06:15 PM:
 
It is Christmas Eve. and I need to add my two cents into this discussion. The resident coyote's know the sounds of every coyote howl in their area. Now if you add up all of the best howls in both Foxpro and WT's libraries, you are still limited to less recorded howls than those that these resident coyotes have already learned to identify. Now after these resident coyotes come in to your recorded howls and don't get dead, it is only a matter of time before they identify your recorded howls as a danger alarm. The same is true with our voice howls. With all of these various hand calls, horn howlers and etc. we have at our disposal these days, we should have quite a bit more time to enjoy calling before we wise up the coyotes. If we do our home work of proper scouting, locating the coyotes, picking our stands carefully and take proper care in our approach to those stands, then we can kill more of the coyotes before they have a chance to become call shy.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 24, 2010, 09:54 PM:
 
This all goes back to the discussion on Tim's bullshit sound tests... just like the meter wasn't tuned to sounds outside the range of the human ear (and actually fell quite short of that)...

Nikonut nailed it, these devices are tuned/built to produce sound, in the range of human hearing.

In hand calls, and the other "natural" producers of sounds (hand calls, voice, and lips) there are many constituants of sound that fall outside the range of human hearing, but inside the range of a canine!

I believe it's not what's in an electronically produced sound (white noise), but what's not in it (lower band "ultrasound" - think dog whistle) that tips them off.

It's not unlike if you took your stereo, turned the bass all the way up, and the treble all the way down.
This is, in effect, what the speaker(s) of an e-call does, for the coyote.
Our high end (treble) is their midrange, and there's no high end at all for them.

When the recording equipment, and the players that reproduce it have "full spectrum" sound, then we can say "all things being equal", because, until then, they still aren't.

Krusty
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 24, 2010, 10:56 PM:
 
This is interesting, coyotes are audiophiles? Maybe JBL or Bose will come out with a speaker we can get these levels of sound.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 24, 2010, 11:08 PM:
 
Those devices already exist!

They are very expensive and not consumer friendly. First you need an amp capable of reaching those highs and lows, a speaker with that range and a recording to drive them. Even then there will be missing sounds and inflection that a coyote can probably discern.

Recorded sounds are just like misting... you can confuse a coyotes nose or his ears but you can't fool him into thinking that it's real if he's been burned and knows better!

Just as sounds lacking low and high ranges of canine hearing will call a coyote...

Theoretically, it is possible to have a sound that might call a coyote that a human couldn't even hear!

[ December 24, 2010, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 25, 2010, 03:53 AM:
 
Niko; interesting line of thought about a call that would work, that we can't hear. Do not be too suprised if someone starts to market that very thing added to a regular sound, with all the ad hype to make it the latest, greatest, can't be successful without our new layers of sound.............. you know the drill.

And speaking of call shy; What about the squirrel, duck, pheasant hunters walking back to the truck; "Hey there's a coyote, Bubba. See if that there varmit call works." "Ok,....Waa Waa Snort Waa........Nope it don't work, he's runnin off." So, it that an educated coyote or just one that's going to spend the next hour wondering what the hell THAT was all about??
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 25, 2010, 07:25 AM:
 
Ahead of my time, I was working with ultra high frequency howls decades ago. I wanted something that I couldn't hear, but would provoke a response from a coyote that I could hear, without interference.

Good hunting. El Bee

& Merry Christmas!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2010, 10:19 AM:
 
So if a coyote has all this great hearing ability why is it a hunter can walk up to with-in 100-200 yds on snow and not be heard or drive up with a truck to with-in 50 yds and not be heard.. I suppose the coyote has a switch to turn its hearing off so it can charge its batteries.LOL

You can take a sound meter or even use the gold wave graph and pick up most sounds produced and freq. also.. If a coyotes hearing was so great it should pick-up the sounds of a E-caller even when the wind is blowing 20-30 mph..
Like mentioned before about a dog whistle you can adjust it so a human can't hear the sounds but a sound meter can..
I've watched red fox in a field look for mice and they have to be around 5' or closer to pick up the sound made by one, so there hearing is'nt that great..
Old Hole huffer Kirby spends alot of time watching coyotes and he could proably give you the distance of how far a coyote can hear a mouse thats buried in the snow. I'd be willing to bet the distance is'nt much more than a fox..

I know by watching the meter on the sound testing unit that the farther you are away from the source of sound the less of it will be picked up or be heard by the coyote depending on what sound is used..
I think someone once said a coyote can hear a howler more than a mile away, yes its possable but another thing to keep in mind is perhaps a coyote that was closer to the howler responded first to the howl and thus the next coyote down the line respond giveing the caller the impresion that a coyote 2 miles away could hear the howler..

I was out locateing one mourning with a ADC guy and we played a locate howl on the WT and got a coyote that was a few hundred yards away to answer and from there it was a chain reaction of coyotes sounding off all the way down the drainage. Did they all hear the howl from the WT or was it the next closest coyote that was howling that set them off??? Ponder on that for awhile..
There are no special freq. or sounds that will get a coyote to respond other than whats already available. The key is to get the sound out there and as much of it as you can so the coyote can hear it and have enough of it to trip one of its triggers.. Keep placeing youre caller out from youre stand 30-100 ft. and faceing one direction and you are going to call just the coyotes that are in close or the ones in front of the sound cone...

Edit to add: DAA posted once that he has a sound he made up by useing varis rabbit distress sounds or just parts of one distress sound..
I would be willing to bet without hearing his favorite sound that alot of the sound produced from it are on the top end of the graph and canbe heard by the coyote at a greater distance..

[ December 25, 2010, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 25, 2010, 10:42 AM:
 
Merry Christmas.

Please continue to use caution while separating the pepper from the fly shit. Tim, did you really say that you were going to teach Scott a few things?

There could be dozens of reasons why sound travels better in one direction than another. I think a coyote is capable of "tuning out" some sounds and actively monitoring certain others. A coyote bedded close to a highway may not "seem" to hear a vehicle pass, but kick one pebble getting out of the truck, and he is alert.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2010, 10:56 AM:
 

quote:

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Please continue to use caution while separating the pepper from the fly shit. Tim, did you really say that you were going to teach Scott a few things?

There could be dozens of reasons why sound travels better in one direction than another. I think a coyote is capable of "tuning out" some sounds and actively monitoring certain others. A coyote bedded close to a highway may not "seem" to hear a vehicle pass, but kick one pebble getting out of the truck, and he is alert.

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No Leonard, just saying maybe there is a piece to the puzzle that Scott has'nt picked up on, then again maybe he has, but forgot about it..
Good answer but what about the hunter that walks up to one a few hundred yards away and no paved road in site and on crunchy snow. I'm sure you know what thats is by now..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 25, 2010, 11:02 AM:
 
Actually, I don't? All the snow I saw was of the type that skiers call "powder".

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2010, 11:25 AM:
 
You had it pretty easey then.. Did you paint any of it red????
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 25, 2010, 01:11 PM:
 
Tim,

You're so full of shit.

Goldwave does go as high as 20khz... but a coyotes hearing goes far beyond, approaching somewhere around three times the high end range of Goldwave, or 60khz (and your decibel meter gave up, according to the manufacturers specs, way before 20khz). These were both made, like e-callers, to accomodate human hearing.

*What the decibel meter may have picked up, from a dog whistle, is the air rushing through, not the whistling.
Pretty much everything you say about the decibel meter, you used incorrectly more often than not, is crap.

Krusty
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2010, 01:20 PM:
 
If this is so and they hear so well. Why is it then they have'nt heard youre special call and come in..

Edit to add; If the freq. was to high or low for the meter to pick up it will still show where it has stopped reading it or show a maxed out point as you continue to blow air through it or change the settings. I have'nt found a sound that will do this, so it must not exist.. Yes the meter can pick up the sound of air going through the whistle so you need to back-up aways when you do the sound test...

I think in order to find some of these higher freq. sounds I would have to look into the area of sounds that are man made such as airplanes, and machinery, musical instraments and so on..
As far as animal distress sounds used for calling it don't exist..
A loon has a pretty good higher freq. sound maybe we should be useing it for calling...

[ December 25, 2010, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 25, 2010, 03:18 PM:
 
Tim,

If you're talking to me about a "special call" then I dunno why they haven't come in, or if they haven't come in, or if you even use the thing like you said you would.

TA "I was out useing the call today Krusty. I like it alot and i will continue to use it. My THANKS to you. Take care. T.A.

I also don't know anything about your ability, or lack thereof, to use a hand call... all you ever talk about is your beloved WT.

Beyond that, I don't believe there's anything all that "special" about that call.

I sent you the call as a gift, with nothing but good intentions, and you've since pissed on that gesture, many many times.
I've asked you not to use that call just to get my goat, but somehow you feel the need to do so, generally over subjects with little or nothing to do with the call.
Please keep the debate to the subject at hand.
________________________________________________

There's no reason the manufacturer of that decibel meter would lie about the range of frequencies it can read, and yet somehow you've made it up in your mind that it can read frequencies outside of these.

Nikonut "The frequency range is very limited, 31.5Hz to 8KHz, far less than even a human can hear."

If you think that meter can read anything beyond these frequencies, or that a WT produces sounds in the full spectrum of coyote hearing, you're an idiot.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 25, 2010, 04:13 PM:
 
Damn Jeff...

That's funny! I thought everyone online already knew that about Tim!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2010, 05:01 PM:
 

quote:

---

If you're talking to me about a "special call" then I dunno why they haven't come in, or if they haven't come in, or if you even use the thing like you said you would.

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quote:

---

If this is so and they hear so well. Why is it then they have'nt heard ""youre"" special call and come in..

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I was'nt talking about the call I have but the special ones you make and use. Now who's the Idiot????? The call I have still sits on the shelf.
With someone with a vast knowledge of sound and supposeidly makes a great call you shouldbe stacking them up right and left..

[ December 25, 2010, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 25, 2010, 05:37 PM:
 
Tim,

I don't make calls that are "special" and never claimed I did. What the heck are you talking about?
The fact that you can't even write a sentence that's intelligible, doesn't make ME the idiot.

And I'd say a good portion of the regular calls I've made are producing well enough, for those that actually use them.

I don't very often use a call I made, myself, but have called several bears, a handfull or two of bobcats, two mountain lions, and even a couple coyotes with them.

Pointing out that I haven't had great success doesn't make you smart, or right, just rude.

Understanding the science of sound, obviously, looking at you, isn't required to kill coyotes.
And you sir, are no scientist.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on December 26, 2010, 01:06 AM:
 
Every one who has called coyotes has caused or at least contributed to creating callshy coyotes. Like it or not the more expierenced you are the more guilty you are. I can't fault a new guy that makes 20 stands a year and calls in 3 coyotes and kills one. Some years I have made many hundreds of stands. I may kill a higher percentage of coyotes than a new hunter (that I have shots at) but i am still going to expose a larger number of animals to my calls than most callers.

Because I hunt the same areas all season I can usually stay on top of the game. I get a feel for the areas and know which ones need rested. Resting an area, in my experience, will better serve you in the long run than just trying new sounds. I don't prescribe to the idea that if you burn a coyote bad one day you can call him in the next with a different sound. I wouldn't bank on it anyway.

When coyotes get truly shy they tend to stay that way for a long time. When they get uncomfortable in there own territories you are going play hell trying to call them in. And in some cases you are just not going to do it plane and simple. Coyotes need a certain leval of comfort and confidance to respond. Pressure comes in many different forms so when a coyote becomes paranoid self preservation overrides all other instincts.

Why any particuler coyote doesn't come in is really anyones guess. Sometimes they simply just don't want too. How many times have you seen a coyote, called to it and the best response you get is a casual glance? On any given day there is going to be a percentage of coyotes that will not respond to your calls. Period. Some days it might only be 10% and we have all had those 100% days. How much pressure they have seen does play a role but so does many other aspects that occur naturaly in a coyotes life.

One thing we can count on though is that the lack of response will always be shrouded in mystery. The promise of higher success rates fules the "industry" and the marketing system has turned predator hunting into a technological arms race.

Why coyotes respond is probably equaly as complex as why they don't but no one really cares exactly why they respond just as long as they do. Coyotes do respond to distress sounds for many reasons. Not just because they are hungry. Curiosity, companionship and teritorial reasons will evoke a response also. Where the coyote fits in socialy will influence if or how it responds. In the end I think why a coyote responds or he doesn't is individual but only to a point. Weather, time of day and time of year will alter there responses as well. All of that being said though a coyote must be comfortable with the stand you make and your presentation before he will commit.

My fault is probably my tendency to over simplify. I use 4 sounds total to call coyotes for the majority of the season. A squeak/churp a rabbit distress a howl and a coyote distress is about all I use. Sounds are important but in my opinion they are grossly over emphasized. Wheather more coyotes are made call shy by hand calls or by E-calls is interesting but the real issue for me is how to deal with it.

Good hunting.

Q,

[ December 26, 2010, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: Q-Wagoner ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 26, 2010, 03:23 AM:
 
"Q"; Might I add '..........turned predator hunting into a {high dollar} technological arms race'.

Good stuff to ponder. Are we letting the excellent technology that we have available to us take the place of common sense, thinking, and wood craft skills??

Every once in a while, it's a simple joy to leave all of the equiptment that I can't live without in the truck and just take a mouth call, a firearm, a camo shirt & an ugly hat and go calling. No frills, no bells, no whistles. Amazingly, I still get a few coyotes that way & have a good time doing it.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 26, 2010, 04:15 AM:
 
With regard to coyote lack of response, Gerry Blair remarks in one of his books, "Maybe they just have a headache."

Question I have been pondering as I have been reading this thread....

Do we need active stimulus to create a call shy coyote? In other words, does a coyote have to be shot at, spooked by movement, smell, etc. when responding to a call, regardless of ecaller or handcall? Or does the repeated calling of an area create a call shy coyote, just by them hearing the sounds over and over again and not responding for whatever reason? It makes me think of my dog. When coyote season is approaching and I break out the e caller and hand calls, my dog is interested and comes running. But after half a day or so, he loses interest and doesn't care about the sounds anymore.

[ December 26, 2010, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on December 26, 2010, 07:46 AM:
 

quote:

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Do we need active stimulus to create a call shy coyote?

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IMO, Yes, we do. Comparing your dog with coyotes isn't a true comparison. Your dog learned not to be interested because he DID respond and never found what he was looking for, so he simply lost interest. I beleive a coyote hearing the sounds over and over and not being in the mood to investigate the sounds leaves him vulnerable to the time when he is interested and finally comes to investigate. Thing is, at least in the wide open country that many of us call, even if the coyote doesn't come to the call, and instead just simply looks your way, eventually he may see the hunter/s walk away and that may be enough to educate said coyotes.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 26, 2010, 08:42 AM:
 
Good points TR.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2010, 10:06 AM:
 
Yeah, that is a good point. So is what Quinton said about all of us contributing to "call shy" education, or whatever you choose to label it? When you get right down to it, maybe four catagories of sound is all we need, but the confidence factor necessitates another hundred or so available at the touch of a button....or the report of a gunshot, as it were?

I still want to place the majority of hte responsibility on A: FOXPRO, and B: casual symplistic newbie types.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 26, 2010, 12:03 PM:
 
What about every stand we make contributing?

How many times have coyotes come in after we have left a stand and smelled our human activity? Coupled with the sounds they might have heard would that also be enough to educate a coyote... even when not in a hunted situation.

We already know that when most coyotes smell or see a human they are gone, how do they learn that even if they haven't been shot at or chased? Is what we think of as learning actually an instinctual response to human interaction or environment conditioning. Simply their instinctual predator/prey flight response kicking in gear?

We may never know but it is fun to watch and try to understand for greater success in our hunts. As humans we are probably the only animal with the mental ability to think this deeply about such things!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 26, 2010, 12:12 PM:
 
"We already know that when most coyotes smell or see a human they are gone, how do they learn that even if they haven't been shot at or chased?"
---------------------------------------
Their parents teach them. Most of us who have been around this game for a long time have a tendency to over think the coyote calling thing. Coyotes don't have the capability to rationalize the situation.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 26, 2010, 01:04 PM:
 
Tim,

I have to respond to a couple things you said.

Tim: "So if a coyote has all this great hearing ability why is it a hunter can walk up to with-in 100-200 yds on snow and not be heard or drive up with a truck to with-in 50 yds and not be heard."

Time and time again, I have called to a coyote with one series of calls at a distance of a half mile to 3/4 of a mile and had coyotes come to within 30' of me, stop and look for the source of the sound. They pegged the origination of that sound to within 30' at a range of a half mile to three quarters of a mile. If that's not an uncanny ability to hear I don't know what is. I have seen coyotes, many times, dig through 2' of snow to catch a mouse. How much sound do you think a moving mouse (not squeaking) makes under 2' of snow Tim? No, they didn't smell the mouse because they cocked their head before they started digging. They heard it without a doubt.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that because someone walks within feet or drives within feet of a coyote that the coyote didn't hear them. Far more likely that the coyote heard them and wasn't about to leave which would expose themselves to further danger particularly in areas of higher human activity.

Heck I have watched coyotes lie down in a bare winter wheat field hoping that I would pass by without seeing them. After driving past them, because there was no reason to kill them in that particular place and time, they got up and ran across the road behind me. In this exposed bare ground situation, the coyote never moved until they thought I had driven past so why would they be inclined to move if they thought they were concealed? They wouldn't.

In addition, if you are calling in an area that is frequented by human noises, vehicle noises, or other noises that could drown out both human and vehicle noise, coyotes are not going to pay much attention to it. Go into the middle of a big open pasture out west somewhere where there is very little other noise to contend with and I'll bet my last dollar you are not going to sneak up on many coyotes on crunchy snow. Been there, done that, many many times. Crunchy snow is poison in areas of reduced human activity and other noises.

Again, don't assume because a coyote didn't jump up and run that they didn't hear you.

Tim: "I've watched red fox in a field look for mice and they have to be around 5' or closer to pick up the sound made by one, so there hearing is'nt that great."

Tim, those coyotes are listening to mouse movement, not mouse squeaks. A mouse isn't squeaking when he's moving around. So how much sound do you honestly think a moving mouse makes?

Tim: "I know by watching the meter on the sound testing unit that the farther you are away from the source of sound the less of it will be picked up or be heard by the coyote depending on what sound is used."

Did I misunderstand this?

You needed a sound testing meter to tell you that the further you are away from a sound, the more difficult it is for a coyote to hear that sound??

Tim: "I think someone once said a coyote can hear a howler more than a mile away, yes its possable but another thing to keep in mind is perhaps a coyote that was closer to the howler responded first to the howl and thus the next coyote down the line respond giveing the caller the impresion that a coyote 2 miles away could hear the howler.."

If you can hear a coyote at 2 miles then they can hear you.

Tim: "I was out locateing one mourning with a ADC guy and we played a locate howl on the WT and got a coyote that was a few hundred yards away to answer and from there it was a chain reaction of coyotes sounding off all the way down the drainage. Did they all hear the howl from the WT or was it the next closest coyote that was howling that set them off??? Ponder on that for awhile.."

Again, if you could hear these coyotes, they could hear you regardless of any hearing aids.

Excellent post Quinton. We are heading South again in a little over a week.

~SH~

[ December 26, 2010, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2010, 01:46 PM:
 
Yes, about heading south. We need to have an email discussion, with copies as to planning a little ronde. Dave is already the WESTERN HUNT COORDINATOR, so we need him to moderate. Have not heard a peep from Vic?

Good hunting. LB

PS as a rule of thumb, stating that if you can hear a coyote....... they can hear you, is extremely misleading. Sorry, I usually hate the use/misuse of the word extreme. (dig?)
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 26, 2010, 02:55 PM:
 

quote:

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Don't make the mistake of assuming that because someone walks within feet or drives within feet of a coyote that the coyote didn't hear them. Far more likely that the coyote heard them and wasn't about to leave which would expose themselves to further danger particularly in areas of higher human activity.

Heck I have watched coyotes lie down in a bare winter wheat field hoping that I would pass by without seeing them. After driving past them, because there was no reason to kill them in that particular place and time, they got up and ran across the road behind me. In this exposed bare ground situation, the coyote never moved until they thought I had driven past so why would they be inclined to move if they thought they were concealed? They wouldn't.

In addition, if you are calling in an area that is frequented by human noises, vehicle noises, or other noises that could drown out both human and vehicle noise, coyotes are not going to pay much attention to it. Go into the middle of a big open pasture out west somewhere where there is very little other noise to contend with and I'll bet my last dollar you are not going to sneak up on many coyotes on crunchy snow. Been there, done that, many many times. Crunchy snow is poison in areas of reduced human activity and other noises.

Again, don't assume because a coyote didn't jump up and run that they didn't hear you.

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quote:

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Did I misunderstand this?

You needed a sound testing meter to tell you that the further you are away from a sound, the more difficult it is for a coyote to hear that sound??

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No! I new that but did'nt know by how much the sound is affected or how much of it is broken up..
Voice howls and coyote vocals from a E-Caller are the loudest sounds out there and stay together better than distress sounds, but some vocals carry better than others and don't break up as much.. In other words the coyote did'nt hear the whole sentence but just bits and pieces depending on how far away it is. Its the same with distress sounds depending on how far they are from the caller. They can hear the sound but not enough to get all of them interested and this maybe why some respond and some act like they don't care..

Edit to add. I'm also aware a coyote or even a red fox can pin-point a mouse under two feet of snow but like I said they have to be close to hear them. I've watched both in a field hunting and have never seen one make a direct path to a sound of a mouse moveing under the snow.. They mostly zig-zag till the sound of there steps causes a mouse to move and only then hear it and zero in on it...

[ December 26, 2010, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 26, 2010, 04:25 PM:
 
Tim,

I still disagree with your basic assumption. A sleeping animal that didn't hear your approach because they were sleeping does not prove that they have poor hearing. It proves that they aren't paying attention to sounds they should be paying attention to when they are sleeping.

Of course a coyote has to be close to hear a mouse under 2 feet of snow. They would probably have to be even closer to hear a feather fall to the ground.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 26, 2010, 04:27 PM:
 
Leonard: "..as a rule of thumb, stating that if you can hear a coyote....... they can hear you, is extremely misleading."

Would love to hear your explanation for that.

My response was within the context of getting a howling response from coyotes with a howler or with a howl from the WT.

I'll stand by what I said. If you can hear a coyote howl, the coyotes would certainly be able to hear a howl from a howler or a WT unless it was against a howling wind which wouldn't be conducive to calling anyway.

~SH~

[ December 26, 2010, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 26, 2010, 04:35 PM:
 
Can coyotes multitask or do they have to shut down one of there senses in order to use another?? In other words can they walk and chew gum at the same time?
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 26, 2010, 04:36 PM:
 
A coyote that didn't hear you while it was sleeping does not prove they have less than acute hearing.

~SH~

[ December 26, 2010, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2010, 04:46 PM:
 

quote:

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Leonard: "..as a rule of thumb, stating that if you can hear a coyote....... they can hear you, is extremely misleading."

Would love to hear your explanation for that.

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quote:

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My point was that if you could hear the coyote at 2 miles, they most certainly heard the WT or you wouldn't be able to hear them either.

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quote:

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How do you know the coyote heard the WT and not another coyote closer up the road that howled back??
I know the WT's are loud but there are some days I wounder...

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Wow! Tim... the point is extremely(LOL) simple here! It doesn't matter if the coyote two miles away heard the WT or another coyote... if you heard the coyote from two miles away he can hear YOU! There is absolutely no reason the believe a coyote's hearing is even remotely less superior to human hearing.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 26, 2010, 07:38 PM:
 

quote:

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A coyote that didn't hear you while it was sleeping does not prove they have less than acute hearing.

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Yup I agree. What it does prove is they don't hear everything all the time and they can't see all the time or look through ridges or hills and they can't smell down wind.
They can't think or reason like humans and they don't become call shy or educated.. They just fear the unknowing.. If a YOY hears a rabbit distress some may come in and some may fear it, same canbe said about coyote vocals or other coyotes.
I've found that just because a coyote did'nt respond to the rabbit screams at first and perhaps ran away another sound canbe used to change its mind or comfort it and then rabbit screams or another distress sound canbe used to bring it back in to the shooter..
I've had Oklahoma doubles or thriples come in and would shoot the closest one and have the others scatter back over the hill. I would just hit the same sound or switch to one that was a little more intense or exciteing and have them back in for more, you would think they got educated after the first shot..
Just so everyone knows I use pup distress and adult distress less than 5% on all my stands or entire season. I never had a reason to use them so I don't, other sounds will work just as well... Change the coyotes mind or refresh it with something else that interests it..

Scott here is a clip of some of my coyotes at home. What can you tell me about them?????
[URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/th_Deletepart ially2of1212010_173908.jpg[/IMG]][/URL]

Part 2:
[URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/th_Deletepart ially3of1212010_173908.jpg[/IMG]][/URL]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2010, 08:11 PM:
 
Minneesota's retarded coyotes. Not surprised.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 26, 2010, 08:16 PM:
 
Leonard; Youre a coyote man from way back, what can you tell me about them????

Niko youre not paying attension..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2010, 08:37 PM:
 
Not sure? They appear to be a rare color phase, cornflower blue? Playful little critters!

Good hunting. LB

edit: what's a Oklahoma double? Two missed, twice?

[ December 26, 2010, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 26, 2010, 08:56 PM:
 

quote:

---

what's a Oklahoma double? Two missed, twice?

---

Not sure but I think Geordie could tell you..
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 27, 2010, 09:32 AM:
 
Tim,

I can't download your video clips. My home computer is extremely slow. I'm sure it's a virus and I don't have the time to get it fixed right now.

Same goes for emails that have been sent. I seldom check my emails at my home computer because everything loads so slow. I received a nice email from C-dog a while back that I found quite awhile after it was sent and I tried to respond to it in 4 seperate emails. Not sure whether he received my delayed response or not. I need to get this computer problem fixed but it's going to have to wait.

For whatever reason, I am able to post and respond to these threads but some days it's so slow that I just have to give up. Today it's faster than normal.


Tim: "What it does prove is they don't hear everything all the time..."

Tim, your initial point was that a coyote's hearing was not that good because you could drive up or walk up to them. Then you stated it was because they were sleeping.

If someone breaks into someone's house and they don't wake up and they normally have good hearing, did they not wake up because they didn't hear very well or because they were sleeping?

I can't believe a discussion can get so bogged down.

TA: "They can't think or reason like humans and they don't become call shy or educated.."

They may not reason like humans but they most certainly do become call shy and educated from negative experiences. If they could not remember and react to negative experiences, there wouldn't be any coyotes left. They wouldn't even run if you shot at them. Do you think a dog can be trained with a shock collar and the preceeding buzzer? If so, then why would a negative experience with calling be any different?

I know you can use different sounds to create different reactions particularly with coyotes that haven't been burned too many times. If memory serves me correctly, I actually teach that concept. Still I know for fact that coyotes eventually learn to differentiate between live sounds and replicated sounds.

For the record, you have stated that:

1. You do not believe coyotes can hear very well because you can sneak up on them when they are sleeping.

2. You have stated that you believe a coyote that responds to you at a 2 mile distance may be responding to another coyote that is closer as opposed to responding to your initial howl.

3. You have stated that you do not believe coyotes become call shy or educated.

~SH~

[ December 27, 2010, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2010, 10:40 AM:
 
Scott, I don't know what kind of setup you have, dialup or broadband, etc.? But, if you try shutting down your router and turning off your computer, and actually removing the connection, then rebooting, your slow problem may disappear? Takes about a minute and cures a lot of issues.

Good hunting. LB

edit: PS these things that take off on a tangent can have just as much value as the information stuff. I know you aren't doing it, but I hate people (control freaks) that complain about staying on topic or hyjacking a thread.

[ December 27, 2010, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 27, 2010, 10:55 AM:
 

quote:

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1. You do not believe coyotes can hear very well because you can sneak up on them when they are sleeping.

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quote:

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2. You have stated that you believe a coyote that responds to you at a 2 mile distance may be responding to another coyote that is closer as opposed to responding to your initial howl.

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quote:

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You have stated that you do not believe coyotes become call shy or educated.

---

I'll stick with that statement till I see other wise...

Like you teach, different day,different location,different sound or played in a different order...

I'm not saying I'm right about anything we talked about just saying. I know there are some coyotes that don't want anything to do with others or even distress sounds for what ever reasons. But yet I can go back to that coyote at another date and its back to its old self again just being a coyote..

Most caller don't see this happening or don't know or understand so maybe you can move on to something else that will spike there interest..
 

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Posted by NVWalt (Member # 375) on December 27, 2010, 11:51 AM:
 
I have to agree with Leonards blamming foxpro and stupid foxpro ambushers for more call shy coyotes than anything else. That was a page or two ago.At least it seems to hold true where I hunt anyways...Good calling,,,,Walt
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2010, 12:24 PM:
 
One of the CO OP's up north. I heard they got in 12 Foxpros a few days before Christmas and had sold 8 before closing time. Flying off the shelves and being misused the very same day! lol

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on December 27, 2010, 12:54 PM:
 

quote:

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... sold 8 before closing time

---

The good news is that 7 of those 8 will be in the back of a closet or on ebay by next summer.
The bad news is that the ones on ebay will be bought up by the people who didn't get one for christmas!

Maintain
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 27, 2010, 01:16 PM:
 
Tim I don't care what they say about you. You make some interesting videos.

Why didn't you shoot? How far away were they?
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 27, 2010, 01:22 PM:
 
Tim,

Any further dialogue on the same topics would be redundant at this point. I'll let the readers sort it out.

~SH~
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 27, 2010, 01:57 PM:
 
4949; The vidio was taken just as the sun was setting, reason for the blue haze. The coyotes are in a deer yard, no hunting allowed. They were amost a 1/2 mile from my stand, I had to try and pull them across open ground and across a fence line onto property I could shoot on... I think as the sun was setting it made it a little more comfortable for them and may have helped in getting them to respond, don't know for sure...
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 27, 2010, 07:20 PM:
 
Since its pretty well agreed that you can call a coyote with anything from a JS 8 track to a rubber ducky, I venture to say that calls of any kind don't typically educate coyotes. The people running the calls do. Poor setups and poor shooting educates coyotes. End of the discussion for me. Finding ways to call those coyotes is the quandry. I have coyotes highly educated to hand calls that I have killed with e-calls and coyotes highly educated to e-calls that I killed with hand calls. There is no method of killing coyotes that can't be overused and abused. There also is no method that is 100% all the time. The best foothold trapper in the world misses and pinches some coyotes. Then has to use a different method to kill that coyote later. Same goes for aerial hunting, snaring, calling, M44s etc. etc.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 27, 2010, 07:25 PM:
 
Scott,
I did receive your replies and read them completely. Need to read them again. Thanks for the reply and sorry for not replying. Life has been, well, busy.

As to the original question, I’ll give my .02, which will likely turn into about $10.34 worth of remarks. In short, simple question. Very elaborate answer, because the matter of coyotes becoming call shy, educated, or however you wish to describe their unwillingness to respond by this time of the year is due to much more than the misguided notion that all those coyotes have been called, shot at, missed and somehow survived to piss me and the rest of you off on a regular basis. LOL

For one thing, let’s look at the short list of variables to consider since there is no realistic way that all things can be equal. Not gonna happen.

Each of us is different as to the way we set up our setups, which types of calls we use, which sounds we make with each call, cadence, volume, continuous versus sporadic, 30 seconds of squeals and a minute of wait or a minute of sound and ten minutes or more of nada, where we set up on a particular piece of ground, wind direction/ speed/ constant versus gusting, temperature, time of day, cloudy versus clear, nighttime versus day, cold versus warm versus just right, snow or no snow, moon phases/ rise, barometric pressure steady/ rising/ falling, personal experience and historical record at that location versus in general, time of year, density of coyotes, transient versus resident coyote, lone wolf versus family group, inside defended territory versus outside and in home range, relative level of assertiveness in the coyotes within hearing range (aggressive versus timid), amount of other activity (hunting and non-hunting) in the area, cattle or no cattle, other hunters versus almost no human presence, what the weather was like last night, yesterday, an hour ago, or even tomorrow, etc., etc., ad nauseum. You get the drift.

Over the past several months, I’ve been in a number of interesting conversations with the Professor where we discussed what I, like him, tend to view as the misnomer “call shy coyotes”. I do agree that, up to a point, a coyote can become overly familiarized to a particular sound, or series of sounds, and that they learn to avoid that particular sound or the way in which it is presented to them, be it running continuously, or from the same spot,... whatever. But, I don’t agree that this is the sole reason for coyotes becoming “call shy” or “educated”.

From my talks with Rich, I have concluded that coyotes becoming difficult to work with are likely their response to increased pressure, and that this pressure can come from any of a long litany of sources, including calling, dog hunters, other hunters, ATV riders, bird watchers, ranchers feeding cattle, and the like. Again, the list can go on endlessly depending upon your area and land uses and, for the most part, the higher the human pop’n in a given area, the more quickly coyotes tend to get to that point where they piss you off. And, it ain’t just because everyone is shooting at them. All the shooting doesn't help, but they don't have to be shot at to make them nervous.

Around here, calling suddenly grows more difficult when the onslaught of hunters hits the field - deer hunting, pheasant and quail hunting, coyote hunters. Not all these people are shooting at coyotes, but those coyotes are still being displaced on an almost daily basis and until this time of the year, this is something that is relatively new to them. Add in ranchers and farmers entering pastures around here every single day to drop round bales and feed supplements for cattle on winter pasture - something they don’t do during the summer and spring months - and those poor damned coyotes are being pushed around all the time. All those intrusions take a toll on their security levels and they become increasingly jumpy and paranoid, thus they become less willing to roll up on every sound they hear. People then tend to mistake this as being call shy or educated, when calling is just one part of a multi-faceted behavioral response. Those which are unable to develop this response are quickly removed through simple natural selection leaving what we recognize to be the more difficult to call survivors.

Also, at the same time, I want to share an analogy Q made last night when we discussed this topic on the phone. Since he posts from his phone now, typing this out would have been awfully time consuming for him.

Coyotes are like people - each one is an individual with its own way of doing things. Scott posted this question and some of you were quick to jump right in. Others sat back to see what evolved over time, having seen where these discussions tend to go. Experience has made them “call shy” if you will. Some of the early chargers are overzealous and get themselves in too deep. Tim would have died the first week of November if he was a coyote, and apparently, he thinks he is. Still others would sit on the ridgeline just watching, occasionally barking, and refusing to close the gap because they know the consequences of charging down the hill too quickly. Still, untold others will circle downwind, test the air and leave undetected (lurkers). In other words, there are coyotes out there that, due to experience or just being born with better sense and a more refined sense of rationalizing risks, will always stay beyond the reach of danger by being uncooperative, while others will quickly and eagerly charge in aggressively, oblivious to the risks. Sometimes, rather than being educated or call shy, a coyote is just naturally more cautious and wary. Those are the ones that know that laying down will help them hide, sitting still with danger nearby will save their skins, and staying back in the trees while their mate runs smack dab into the business end of a ballistic tip bullet is a damned good idea.

I disagree that a coyote cannot think or rationalize in some way. Maybe not in the way that we do, but in some rudimentary way, I believe that they are able to look at a situation, recognize the options before them and make some sort of decision as to which option best suits their needs at the time. Scott told of the coyote that laid down until he passed by, then stood up and crossed the road behind him. Random behavior? I’ve seen coyotes do that with a pack of greyhounds on their butts, choosing to speed up and cross the road in front of another truck, or slam on the brakes and let the chasers get by them first, or run like hell in a mile-long straight line knowing of where a pond tube is where they get in and hope nothing comes in behind them. I’ve seen mature coyotes, upon hearing the doors on the dog box drop, drop to the ground in a tight ball out of the dogs’ sight while his partner keeps running, and then stay there until all the hounds have passed him by in hot pursuit of his soon to be former mate, only to rise and run back the way he came from once he felt the coast was clear. I’ve seen coyotes deliberately lead greyhounds onto a highway and time things as such that all he hears just moments before he makes his escape for good is the sound of screeching tires and yelping dogs. Hell, just the fact that a coyote is “smart” enough to recognize the value of going downwind should tell you something. Straight in or downwind first? Two options, consider both and select the one that offers the best likely outcome. How do you define “rationalize”?

Fact is, IMO, e-callers are more to blame for so-called call-shy coyotes because they offer limited sounds and are misused by more people with less experience than hand calls are. Operator error. Those that rely solely upon e-callers are often less woods wise, and by virtue of the fact that they chose technology over good old fashioned hunting savviness (is that a word?), their choice not to take the hard road and learn to actually call a coyote is their nature. The smart coyote hunter recognizes the value of being dynamic in his approach to calling, recognizing what others are doing and avoiding that like the plague, and always having a new strategy in the works to keep the coyotes from patterning your efforts due to your repetition, whether that means new sounds on the e-caller, mixing up the cadence you use, calling at a different time of the day, from a different spot, using a different sound, going to hand calls, getting in close versus trying to get them into the open, or whatever.

Fact is, the coyote is doing as much to outsmart you as you are to outsmart him. With his ears, his eyes and his nose, I’m surprised that any of us can get any of them anyway. Thank God they don’t have opposable thumbs!

Edit to add "what Cal said ^^^". LOL

[ December 27, 2010, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 27, 2010, 07:25 PM:
 

 

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Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on December 27, 2010, 09:35 PM:
 

quote:

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Fact is, IMO, e-callers are more to blame for so-called call-shy coyotes because they offer limited sounds and are misused by more people with less experience than hand calls are. Operator error.

---

There is a lot of truth to that. But why? I think it has a lot to do with the fact that there are more coyotes now (in the East anyways) than ever and coyote calling is gaining in popularity. New guys are coming to the sport who are good hunters of deer, turkeys, or whatever but are new to coyotes. Plus there are few experienced coyote callers willing to teach them.

How many times have I heard on this board and elsewhere "I'm not taking a newbie calling. They are ruining the sport and there's too many of them. Why bring in competition?" So the new guy buys an e-caller, watches a video and heads to the fields and woods to learn to call by trial and lots of errors. The result is he educates lots of coyotes along the way while trying to learn the game.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 27, 2010, 09:51 PM:
 
I've taken a few out into there areas. I found that it was mostly a waste of my time, they find out they don't have the time or patience to call coyotes or the resources to do it.. Talked with one guy recently and found he only went out once last year and none this year.

From reading on other boards the big craze now it trail cameras, set it up and go home to a nice warm house and wait for the action..LOL

[ December 27, 2010, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 28, 2010, 12:46 AM:
 
good post cdog. i agree with most of what you said. seems everyone has a e-caller nowdays. however, i seldom see human tracks going out into the deep snow we've had here for the last 3 years.however, i do see lots of places people pull off in an approach or field and get out of the vehicle and mill around. alot of spots are in a good spot for coyotes but the snow is just to deep for (most) to get out over the next hill. i suspect alot of this activity is a foxpro on the roof type thing
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 28, 2010, 07:07 AM:
 
I'm sure this goes for areas other than where I hunt, but I sure don't have the luxury of glassing a coyote before I call to it. For you guys that do, "I hate you"...

Based on the fact that I can't visually confirm if a certain sound is being ignored (or not), it very well could be that the coyote I call in after an hour+ long stand just strolled into hearing range of my calls in the last couple minutes and responded rather promptly. So I'll never know for sure if I kilt a 'call shy' dog, or a willing 'passerby'...

Of course, I'll never be able to prove/disprove this theory, but I can deduce that on afternoon stands calling into 'bedding' type thick brush, a coyote will sometimes WAIT for the cover of darkness to make it's approach to the call.

Example:
If I've made my approach to call a small woodlot with stealth & mindful of the wind, I can sneak within a few hundred yards of thick cover where I suspect a coyote is tucked in and within earshot. In this scenario, ANY coyote within this woodlot will be able to hear the call. But I've hedged my bet that at least one coyote is in there, so I go for broke and will sit this stand til I can't see 'chit for dark...

Sometimes, I'll get lucky & have one come within the first few minutes. On other occasions however, I'll catch one just past 'deer legal' shooting hours sneaking in for a lookee-loo. In either of these situations, I'M HAPPY 'cause I got one!

BUT....sometimes after breaking stand & trudging out in the dark, I've had coyotes open up & howl literally AT my stand location, AFTER I've left it for lack of light...

So my question to the pros here is:
Are these coyotes that wait til dark to approach exhibiting a learned behavior attributed to being 'call shy'? Or is this just the cautious nature of an adult coyote, akin to a big buck waiting to enter a crop field after dark?

wadda ya think???

[ December 28, 2010, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by 32below (Member # 2075) on December 28, 2010, 07:23 AM:
 
Ain't the tool
Tis the operator
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on December 28, 2010, 07:40 AM:
 
Scott and others having trouble with slow computers: Do yourself a favor and buy Pitstop Optimize 3, and run it every day. It takes you about two minutes to keep your computer humming. Best of all, when it shows the things that are wrong, you can trust just clicking "Optimize", and not be concerned that you might be eliminating something you need for some other program to work properly. IMO, you are far better off paying the extra $9.95 and getting the cd for backup. It allows you to install the program on up to 4 computers and it is good for one year. They normally offer a special deal for renewals done on time. It is recommended by Cnet, which is a great site for getting the scoop on products for the computer.
Like a lot of other similar programs, they offer a free scan, but it does not find or correct anywhere near what the paid for program does.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2010, 08:00 AM:
 
....or, just get a Mac.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 28, 2010, 09:03 AM:
 
After reading this thread front to back I really have nothing to offer on the topic. Nearly every angle has been opined, repeated, rebutted, and reinforced. Not necessarily in that order. For the most part, a very stimulating exchange. Something common for this part of the World Wide Web.

At this point, the only thing I feel compelled to share is a quote read some ~45 years ago that has really stuck with me over the years because it remains timelessly relevant.

From Lucy Van Pelt, of Peanuts fame: "You know, if you were half as smart as you think you are, you wouldn't think you were so smart."
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 28, 2010, 11:12 AM:
 

quote:

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Are these coyotes that wait til dark to approach exhibiting a learned behavior attributed to being 'call shy'? Or is this just the cautious nature of an adult coyote, akin to a big buck waiting to enter a crop field after dark?

---

Here it has to do with the comfort level of each coyote.. In one section you can have a coyote that will just step out of the cover and stand there and then go down the road aways and have another just bust out into the open heading for the sound.
Right now I'm dealing with deep snow and the coyotes will just come up out of the cover and pace back and fourth and not wanting to go out into the deep snow...
We got a good crust last nite and the coyotes where moveing most everywhere so now the calling should pick up in the next couple of nights if visability is good...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2010, 12:29 PM:
 
That's surprisingly profound, jimbo. I like it.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 28, 2010, 03:20 PM:
 
Obviously Leonard, I was impressed with it as well to have packed it around for this long. It can be applied in sooo many instances.

Also obvious that it sailed harmlessly over it's intended target, just as I suspected it would. One of those things in life you can pretty much count on.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 28, 2010, 03:25 PM:
 
If you are refering to me, I paid no attension to it. I thought you were talking about Leonard.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2010, 03:29 PM:
 
Too funny!
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 28, 2010, 03:48 PM:
 
SCORE!! Chalk one up for Mr. Coyote. Kudos, Tim.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 28, 2010, 04:20 PM:
 
LOL.. Sorry Leonard..

Jim I know we have bumped heads before in the past and I was'nt looking to bust youre balls things just happened. I heard that you are a good caller in youre area and even call better than Paul M. ( just yanking the chain Paul)so for whats its worth you have my respect.
Now I have to get to the store before it closes to get some more popcorn..
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 29, 2010, 06:45 AM:
 
I can remember a number of negative coyote responses to various calling techniques but some really stand out over the others. I can remember another particular coyote that was "call shy", "caller shy", "calling shy", or whatever you would like to call it.

Typical call stand set up. I had walked in 2 miles. Everything was right. Saw coyote come to quarter mile from west and kept running in a big circle until it was 1/4 mile east. It never stopped running. I saw what was happening when it wouldn't stop so I grabbed my shooting sticks and rifle and ran to the top of the hill behind me only to watch coyote ass run over the hill to the east (downwind).

Now stop and consider this coyote's behavior in comparison to the coyotes that ran to the top of the hill and started warning barking. This particular coyote was interested in the sound enough to circle 1/4 mile downwind on a dead run but was shy enough not to committ without knowing first.

Later found out the local flavor had been calling this area repeatedly. Situations like this are becoming more frequent every day.

I have absolutely no doubts that coyotes can differentiate between what is real and what is reproduced once they start looking for those differences after a few bad experiences. Seen too many observations of coyote behavior to think otherwise. I was just curious if anyone else had reasons for believing the same thing.

In these discussions, I have always tried to consider and list the many variables that affect coyote behavior that change from place to place and time to time in order to have a meaningful discussion on coyote behavior that also changes from place to place and time to time. With all those variables considered, when pressed, coyotes can differentiate sounds far better than most would like to give them credit for.

In the legitimate livestock protection business, we don't deal with the new crop of coyotes, we deal with the old crop which tends to taint our perspective. In contrast, recreational callers just go look for another spot in hopes of better success.

There is reasons for coyote behavior. Sometimes we figure it out and a lot of times we don't but there is reasons for everything they do even if that happens to be a need for rest or simply uninterested.

Knockem: "Are these coyotes that wait til dark to approach exhibiting a learned behavior attributed to being 'call shy'? Or is this just the cautious nature of an adult coyote, akin to a big buck waiting to enter a crop field after dark?"

Don't know what qualifies as a "pro" but I'll give you my thoughts. With any increase in human activity that relates to negative experiences for coyotes, you will find an increase in nocturnal movements. We see a lot of that in Eastern SD. The Hollywood type coyotes are the opposite end of the spectrum. They're not bothered by much and they are totally surrounded with human activity. Since that human activity rarely poses a threat, they move around as they will.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2010, 08:51 AM:
 
Scott, it works inversely as well.

In areas where there is a lot of night time spotlighting, like (the usual suspects) recreational Utes flashing the Nevada blacktops, you see extremely light shy coyotes, and have much better responses on daylight stands.

This is not normal, these Charley Browns create the situation.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. LB
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 29, 2010, 02:22 PM:
 
Tim - In your video, what were those coyotes looking at? A parked car, a house, ...? They weren't acting call shy. They saw something that kept them from coming out into that field.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 30, 2010, 08:36 AM:
 
tlbradford,

Do ya think maybe the coyote saw some guy over there rotating a speaker 360 degrees? Nah, a coyote would never see that.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2010, 09:21 AM:
 
Tim, I know that I speak for many wanting to know exactly how you handle your stand. We need video, and you need a partner filming you from a safe distance.

I would like to see your set up, and using the speaker over your head and the 360 sweeps, and where you put it when you eventually sit down, and how much time elapses before you sit down?

All in favor, say AYE!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 30, 2010, 12:32 PM:
 
Didn't AR Shaw put up an interview with Tim that told all about his methods?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2010, 02:04 PM:
 

quote:

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Didn't AR Shaw put up an interview with Tim that told all about his methods?

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quote:

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Tim, I know that I speak for many wanting to know exactly how you handle your stand. We need video, and you need a partner filming you from a safe distance.

I would like to see your set up, and using the speaker over your head and the 360 sweeps, and where you put it when you eventually sit down, and how much time elapses before you sit down?

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quote:

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Tim - What were those coyotes looking at in your video.

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Don't know for sure as they could'nt tell me.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 30, 2010, 03:06 PM:
 
So what was your point in posting those videos if you can't answer simple questions about the stand and the coyotes behavior?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2010, 03:18 PM:
 

quote:

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They weren't acting call shy.

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Well then that rules out the f-p being used in my area or any other type of calls.
A friend saw the vidio and noticed something about them, was just checking to see if anyone else could spot it..
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 30, 2010, 03:37 PM:
 
TA "It's not rocket science."

It's not any kind of science, it's called speculation.

Krusty

[ December 30, 2010, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 30, 2010, 04:19 PM:
 
Is the guy that spotted "something" one of the "crew", who is probably circling the coyotes in his pick-up to push them off the private property so you can shoot them?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2010, 07:56 PM:
 

quote:

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Is the guy that spotted "something" one of the "crew", who is probably circling the coyotes in his pick-up to push them off the private property so you can shoot them?

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As usual you are wrong again. The person that took notice is a member on this site ..Not as bright as you thought you were..
The property and deer yard are in the middle of a 1/4 section, which is ajoined to a 2 1/2 mile section. The road in the vidio is on the left side of screen out of view and a little more than a 1/4 of a mile from my stand... The deer yard is located in the S-E quarter and the coyotes are on the northside of the grove and I was north of them sitting against a terrace.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 30, 2010, 08:05 PM:
 
I admit I should have put a big (sarcasm) next to my previous statement. I'll further admit that I blame myself for getting into this discussion about a video that has no bearing whatsoever on the topic, and is not even a tangent that is somewhat useful to anybody. I'm going to go watch football and try to forget how dumb I am am to get suckered into this conversation.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2010, 08:17 PM:
 

quote:

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I admit I should have put a big (sarcasm) next to my previous statement. I'll further admit that I blame myself for getting into this discussion about a video that has no bearing whatsoever on the topic, and is not even a tangent that is somewhat useful to anybody. I'm going to go watch football and try to forget how dumb I am am to get suckered into this conversation.

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The topic is call shy coyotes thats what the vidio was showing or seemed to show..
If you could read a coyotes body lauguage even just a little bit maybe you could catch on to what I was asking.. You did'nt get suckered in, you showed up on purpose just to take a few cheap shots but it backfired on ya..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2010, 08:50 PM:
 
Member of this site? Would have to be AR Shaw. What do I win?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2010, 09:16 PM:
 
No Leonard... R.R. was the one that noticed something about the coyotes and perhaps why they did'nt respond to the call at first.....

[ December 30, 2010, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2010, 09:20 PM:
 
Well shit! Even I noticed they were blue!

Okay, okay! What's the big secret?
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on December 30, 2010, 09:58 PM:
 

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The topic is call shy coyotes thats what the vidio was showing or seemed to show..
If you could read a coyotes body lauguage even just a little bit maybe you could catch on to what I was asking.. You did'nt get suckered in, you showed up on purpose just to take a few cheap shots but it backfired on ya..

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Okay, okay! What's the big secret?

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Yes what's the secret TA?

Tell us!
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on December 31, 2010, 08:01 AM:
 
TA IMO, I don't think you are dealing with call shy coyote in that video. It appears to me the issue is territorial and you should be asking yourself who defends territory and who assits in defending territory?

That to me was a classic assembly taking place and when the alpha(s) showed up with a brief retreat to core area you probably were going to have all of them in your lap.

It probably made little difference to them at the time on which calls you were throwing at them, you just had to occasionally let them know you were a coyote because they were thinking 4 against 1 makes alot more sense than a 1 on 1.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2010, 08:35 AM:
 
I think Greenside is on to something. I didn't "study" the video and didn't know there was going to be a snap quiz. I watched with bored detachment, as is usually the case with Tim's videos. (note to Tim: see how video is spelled?)

But. Although I'm tempted to go back and review it, I will resist the impulse. For now, relying on vague recollections, still, all I can come up with is they were blue and milling around and it didn't hold my interest past the first half minute, or so.

Whatever RR may have noticed, I think Dennis is on to something.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 31, 2010, 10:23 AM:
 

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TA IMO, I don't think you are dealing with call shy coyote in that video. It appears to me the issue is territorial and you should be asking yourself who defends territory and who assits in defending territory?

That to me was a classic assembly taking place and when the alpha(s) showed up with a brief retreat to core area you probably were going to have all of them in your lap.

It probably made little difference to them at the time on which calls you were throwing at them, you just had to occasionally let them know you were a coyote because they were thinking 4 against 1 makes alot more sense than a 1 on 1.

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Dennis: "BINGO"

I noticed this as well when the two coyotes(YOY) kept looking to the left and then the other two coyotes showed up which changed the tempo of the game a little.

tlbradford: I had only access to the land north of where the coyotes were,so thats were I had to make my stand and try to pull them out into the open field and hope they would come close enough and over the fence line so I could get a shot at them.. If you would go to my oringanal post you will find that I had to stop the video and consentrate on the job at hand and try to pull the coyotes out from there core area to where I was set up. After some time one of the 4 responded and the other 3 followed suite and I got one of the four which turned out to be a male weighing 36 pounds....
Anyway thanks Dennis you got a good eye..
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on December 31, 2010, 01:05 PM:
 

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The video, and your description of the layout of the land, is not showing call shy coyotes. It shows a poorly thought out stand location

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PS It just dawned on me! He dresses like Paul Bunyon!

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