This is topic Coyote kill? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 29, 2010, 05:31 PM:
I found this photo on another board. They think that coyote killed this sheep. What do you guys think?
[ December 29, 2010, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Rich ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2010, 06:15 PM:
Can't we at least have multiple choice?
1) Aliens
2) a flock of magpies
3) ol' shep
4) blankity blank ky o tees
5) Drones operated by the C.I.A
6) a 25'06 with 75 gr. VMax
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2010, 06:26 PM:
Vultures...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2010, 06:55 PM:
Damn, Tim. I was just kidding. I hope you were, too?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 29, 2010, 07:29 PM:
It was New Zelanders that did it. (They hate our sheep) What do I win?? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on December 29, 2010, 07:32 PM:
what part of the country did it happen in?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2010, 08:03 PM:
Yup.
Perhaps it was the Wookie that did it. His hands must of gotten cold and he stopped to warm them on the way home.. I hear they do that to there dogs up that way. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ December 29, 2010, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 29, 2010, 08:20 PM:
Without skinning it is impossible to tell for sure, but as a casual glance I would say in all likelyhood, yes it was probably a coyote kill. Classic throat wound by the picture. Looks like damage right under the jawbone, which normally is where the bottom teeth hit. Too clean of kill for domestic dogs.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2010, 08:22 PM:
Makes sense, Cal. But, what would you be looking for, by skinning?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on December 29, 2010, 08:45 PM:
I would skin out the neck area and check the skin for puncture holes from the canine teeth of a coyote. It sure appears to be a coyote kill to me. Dogs normally don't have a clean kill such as happened with this lamb.
[ December 29, 2010, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: SD Howler ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 29, 2010, 09:42 PM:
"Without skinning it is impossible to tell for sure, but as a casual glance I would say in all likelyhood, yes it was probably a coyote kill. Classic throat wound by the picture. Looks like damage right under the jawbone, which normally is where the bottom teeth hit. Too clean of kill for domestic dogs."
---------------------------------
Thank you Cal, my uneducated eyes missed that wound. I couldn't make this a multiple choice question because then it would have been too easy for Leonard.
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 29, 2010, 10:29 PM:
Not a wookie, I would've eaten the tenderloins and used that warm wool for a hat.
I think it's a photo-shop job to cover up the love marks from TA.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2010, 10:44 PM:
quote:
I would've eaten the tenderloins and used that warm wool for a hat.
Did'nt know anyone eats that stuff other than dogs after its been cooked and mixed with something else..
I see youre still passing the f-p cool-aid around on P.M. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
If you would take the time to see where the posters are from you will notice non of them live in a igloo so they don't need the special (-30) wires for there callers or the hot packs for that matter... But if thats what it takes to keep the f-p working more power to ya.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2010, 10:48 PM:
Cal. What would be the difference between a coyote killed lamb and a lamb killed by a bobcat or lion??????
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 30, 2010, 06:15 AM:
TA,
Glad to see you're keeping tabs on me still.
Why do you even use a remote caller when the thing is sitting right beside you, or on top of the bucket? TA, do you have the WT Young Female Howls and Single Male howls on your WT? If so, let me know, I have a question for you.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on December 30, 2010, 07:45 AM:
Id say, from the looks of it...that it's Bush's fault. Im sure he did it.
Mark
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 30, 2010, 07:49 AM:
LB, By skinning the neck out as SD suggested you can see the bite marks in the hide and damage to the neck. Since a coyote is actually smaller that the size of lamb in the picture they typically bite the neck right there at the junction of the skull and eventually either get the jugular or suffocate the lamb. You will find the top teeth marks and alot of damage up by the ear. You can tell alot by the width of the canines and many times see the exact impint of the teeth in the hide.
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on December 30, 2010, 08:42 AM:
Don't coyotes normally start eating the back of the hindend frist after the kill?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2010, 08:53 AM:
quote:
Why do you even use a remote caller when the thing is sitting right beside you, or on top of the bucket? TA, do you have the WT Young Female Howls and Single Male howls on your WT? If so, let me know, I have a question for you.
I use the remote because it came with the caller and its the only way you can operate the call.. I used a Dennis Kirk for years that did'nt have the remote it was operated by hand by just pushing a button..With a good set up I don't need the caller sitting 40 yds away..
As for the WT sounds I have the Y F howls and Y single howls......
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2010, 09:12 AM:
I would like to know as a previous post asked, how to distinguish between a cat kill and a coyote kill? Assuming no tracks.
Seems to me, the lion (sometimes) clamps down on the back of the skull, but they eat out the internal organs in the same manor as the above photo? Sudden thought; they cover and hide the kill, which a coyote has never thought of doing, so maybe it's a stupid question?
Now, if bite marks under the head, in the area of the throat is diagnostic for coyote; how do feral dogs usually kill a relatively defenseless animal...and will a deer kill look different?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on December 30, 2010, 11:16 AM:
Years back when the fox numbers were higher in SD, we would check the spacing of the skin punctures from the canine teeth. This width for the coyotes averages 1 1/4" and fox is 1".
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 30, 2010, 11:42 AM:
Until Cal responds, most dog kills I've seen presented with lotsa bite marks everywhere else. especially around the hindquarters as they pulled the animal down. On the few kills that I've skinned out, we've done so, as Cal said, to identify the canine imprints and measured them to ensure that they were what we thought they were. In one instance, working with F. Robert Henderson, we had three young steers that had been pulled down and killed, and one that was circling the drain. All four had multiple wounds around the nose and face. Upon skinning back the hide, we were able to confirm that we had three different dogs, in this case, involved as the spacing between the canines (width) was different enough that it was easy to see that they were made by different animals.
Would have been a more informative pic if they'd taken it at the scene of the kill, but that sheep has been moved.
[ December 30, 2010, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2010, 12:49 PM:
Moved, eh? I thought there was something a little worrysome about that pic, but I couldn't exactly put my finger on it! I think you're right.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 30, 2010, 03:17 PM:
John, I'm betting if you look in that lamb the heart and liver are gone and maybe some other internal organs. The paunch is the easiest place to open it up.
Cat or lion may cover or atempt to cover whats left and eat on it very cleanly with the claws serving as a fork to hold while they eat off the meat while a coyote will rip and pull chunks of hide with the meat.
[ December 30, 2010, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Randy Roede ]
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on December 30, 2010, 04:40 PM:
Here is a pic of a coyote deer kill and is normal when I come across them.The deer was still warm when I took the pic. The internals were still inside but the hindquaters are usally the frist to go.There was 3 coyotes and a bunch of crows on it. Came back the next morning and shot another coyote off it. 
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 30, 2010, 05:27 PM:
heres some pics of a FRESH wolf kill. i ran them off early in the a.m. the pics of the rib cage was exactaly 24 hours later. 
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 30, 2010, 05:30 PM:
JohnLK,
How can you tell that the deer didn't go down after being wounded by a hunter's bullet?
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on December 30, 2010, 05:31 PM:
John, you are a lucky guy.....unfortunatly around here, they don't eat enough deer.
Maintain
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 30, 2010, 06:34 PM:
Same here, Geordie. Of course, I frequently remind the PF guys that this is why God made pheasants, too. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Need something to feed my coyotes.
Around here, if a guy doesn't recover his deer before sunset, chances are about 90% that by the time he does find it the next morning, it'll be cleaned up for him.
Edited to add that the other day, I went to one of the sites where I dump carcasses and four coyotes that I'd dumped about a month ago had been dragged out from the brush and mostly eaten. Tracks around them indicated cannibalism.
[ December 30, 2010, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on December 30, 2010, 06:35 PM:
quote:
How can you tell that the deer didn't go down after being wounded by a hunter's bullet?
I followed the tracks of the coyotes chasing a deer on fresh snow and when I got to the edge of the lake there they were.In the spring when the snow melts into the ice it is common to see blood stained patches with deer parts in the ice where the coyotes have made kills.Tracks like this deer on the left and coyote chasing it on the right 
[ December 30, 2010, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: JohnLK ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 30, 2010, 07:10 PM:
JohnLK;
You have a funny looking rifle, but that's an interesting seat / backpack set-up. Could you elaborate a bit on it, possibly in a seperart thread?? Thanx.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 30, 2010, 08:53 PM:
OK but you guys will never guess what killed THIS poor critter.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2010, 09:17 PM:
1) Aliens
2) Vietnamese noodle baron
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 31, 2010, 07:54 AM:
LB, I will gladly respond to your question about cats, but the other guys pretty well covered it. If you don't have tracks to go by then you go to the bite marks. Of course a lions canines are bigger and farther apart and they typically hit the neck right at the top base of the skull for a final kill bite. On a sheep they will sometimes crush the skull and vertebra. In the case of bobcats, which do ocasionally kill sheep, alot of times it will look alot like a coyote kill unless you can find claw marks and if the sheep doesn't have too much wool on it there will be lots and they are easy to find. On heavily wooled sheep sometimes its way tougher. Dogs and wolves typically bite everywhere, but with wolves they will eventually get to the throat usually. My wolf info is pretty much second hand and lots of manuals and pics. We havent had any wolf kills in my part of the country. Dogs many times kill by literally running an animal down and eventually get the paunch opened up and really make a mess. Eagles can be tough on sheep also, as well as bears. The guys that are in the mountain country and have to decide between lion, coyote, bobcat, bear and wolf really have thier work cut out for them.
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 31, 2010, 08:47 AM:
JohnLK: "Don't coyotes normally start eating the back of the hindend frist after the kill?"
Depends on the prey. With lambs of this size or new born calves, it is quite typical for coyotes to eat the liver and other bloody organs first by entering the flank area. On larger animals, particularly in the winter months, they may eat the hind quarters first. The picture is typical of a lamb killed by coyotes. In contrast, most newborn calves that I have seen are killed by coyotes attacking and opening the flank area.
I agree with what has been stated about lamb kills by SD Howler and 3 toes. In addition to looking for teeth marks the other reason to skin the neck back is to look for hemorrhage. Coyotes usually kill lambs by biting the trachea and killing the animal by suffocation. In the process of clamping down on the neck, you will have hemorrhage in the bite region of the lamb's neck. I'm quite sure that's what you would find if you skinned this lamb's neck back.
When differentiating between animals that died of other causes and were consumed by coyotes vs actually being killed by coyotes, a primary difference is in the presence of free flowing oxygenated blood from a live animal in the area surrounding the kill in contrast to the coagulated blood of an animal that was already dead.
Texas A&M has a good publication on identifying kills of various animals.
As has been mentioned, dogs are notorious for maiming and tearing vs. the usually clean kill of a coyote.
In regards to the original picture, it sure looks like coyote but as Cal mentioned you need to skin it out to know for sure.
~SH~
[ December 31, 2010, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2010, 09:09 AM:
No snow, big carcass, not real fresh, frozen ground, evidence indicates wolves, coyotes, maybe fox and ravens. (scat near by)
How do you sort out what came first, the chicken or the egg?
Bonus points; age the frozen kill.
Good hunting. LB
edit; hypothetical, I don't have a photo? Take a stab, nobody's wrong.
[ December 31, 2010, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on January 04, 2011, 09:02 AM:
This thread is awesome! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
LB, I say a Mazda RX7 killed it.
JohnLK, what part of MI? I'm in Oakland County.
[ January 04, 2011, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 04, 2011, 02:26 PM:
Elbee,
Last working hypothesis I heard from those black helo college sorts was that in order for birds to evolve from their likely origin - amphibians/ reptiles - there needed to be the evolution of an egg with a hard shell that could survive prolonged periods above ground or outside water. Once the hard-shelled egg was "founded", the leap to avian vertebrates was only logical. Ya know? Which came first? The egg. The science is now settled, as Algore would say.
There you go, not that you were asking, but you did bring it up . See? Tim ain't the only smart one here.
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 04, 2011, 03:09 PM:
This is a very informative thread, thanks for the kill experts sharing the CSI details.
smithers,
Where in Oakland County are you from? I'm from Rochester Hills originally.
Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on January 04, 2011, 04:52 PM:
Rich, I have no idea what killed and picked that house cat clean, but I'd sure as heck like to borrow it for a year or two.
Actually if I had to venture a guess on that cat I'd say a bird of prey had something to do with it.
[ January 04, 2011, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: ursus21 ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on January 04, 2011, 05:05 PM:
Tundrawookie, I'm from Lake Orion. If you haven't been back to Rochester in a while it has changed immensely. For the good of course
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 04, 2011, 06:52 PM:
Smithers,
I used to fish Lake Orion quite a bit and had some friends that lived out there. I used to hunt Bald Mountain area a-lot too about 15 years ago. My parents are still in Rochester and I get back there about every year. I can't stand the place anymore, it's urban yuppie-ville to the extreme. My folks said I should move back there and buy one of those huge houses that sit vacant in the new subdivisions. No way...no how I'm leaving Alaska though. Email if you want and we can chat Michigan more, we might know each other.
Sorry to get off subject,
I honestly think that a coyote wearing bobcat socks killed that critter.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on January 04, 2011, 09:59 PM:
Looks like i'm late but i will give my two cents.
Tough to tell FOR SURE without skinning I agree.
Dogs usually have are messy as has been stated and sometimes large pieces of the hide are pulled free in a "flap" from the tugging from the flank and back of the ribcage, its more of a game then food to most dogs.
No coyotes don't "always" eat the hind end first but eating the inner organs first has been stated to lean toward "cat".
Not EVERY cat covers his or her kill although it can be a dead giveaway if you don't have bears in the area.
3Toes nailed with the classic thoat coat and looking for the canine puncunters.
Also if you skinned it out you would probably see some hemorage in the bag legs from the coyotes trying to hamsting it which cats will rarily do but canines will.
Just my two cents good post.
I think a Burrowing owl killed the kitty cat
Posted by yotehunter2 (Member # 3764) on February 02, 2011, 07:48 PM:
new here but have hunted yotes about 5 years back in michigan and a guy at the sportsman club brought in a video of a coyote taking down a deer in his field and that one had the deer just as you stated up under the head on the neck just holding it waiting for it to die,he went in the house and got his gun to dispatch the coyote and it saw him and let go of the deer and made his escape into the woods before he could get a shot!
p.s. i live in W.V. NOW
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 04, 2011, 04:05 AM:
When I had sheep, most kills were domestic dogs, very sloppy killers and inefficient . Often did not kill the sheep , just put it down and died later.Usually did not consume much if any.Real predators do it cleanly and efficiently which is very obvious.
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