This is topic SHOOT THE FURTHEST ONE FIRST? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 07, 2011, 02:09 PM:
Seems to me, it depends on the situation, and how close together they are and if they are close enough to see their partner drop. In other words, there are many reasons for deciding how to handle multiples, like is the cover such that either one can be hidden completely at the sound of the shot, and yet, sometimes they are trailing by enough distance where they don't even react to the sound and keep coming out of cover. Some places, a coyote is spooked by just about anything, so who's to say what is the best solution.
Okay, I want to know what you like to do, normally, and what are your reasons for shooting the first one? Does it depend on the likelihood of killing both, or do you think you have a better chance to line up on the closer one as the second shot, whereas the back one might be able to get out of sight sooner so you want him down first, regardless that the near one will probably turn inside out and hit high gear before you even get him in your sights.
Let's hear from The Peanut Gallery; and I want a REASON you will defend to the death.
Good hunting. LB
Not really, everybody has an opinion. Food for thought, please.
edit: easterners are excused lol
[ February 07, 2011, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on February 07, 2011, 02:37 PM:
Sgt. York always shot the last one first.
At least he did so in the movie...
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on February 07, 2011, 02:57 PM:
Daytime stands - I shoot the one that takes the least amount of movement from me, and presents the easiest shot. If they are coming hard I will not stop it for a shot either. I'll just kill it and hope the other one pauses or keeps coming.
edit: My reasons that I will defend to the death..I hope that the gunshot won't bother trailing coyotes. I wnat a sure kill, and if I only kill one I don't have to walk as far to get it. Being a right handed shooter, I don't want to swing a huge amout to a close coyote on my extreme right, or switch sides to shoot them off handed, because I believe that movement alerts the other coyote and decreases my chance of calling him back or having a slower running shot or a stoppage.
[ February 07, 2011, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: tlbradford ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 07, 2011, 03:09 PM:
I always shoot first the one that seems to most want to get shot first. And it's always obvious which one that is. If there are multiple guns on stand and no pre-made plans to counter it, it's the one always ends up getting double tapped.
Line up five guys with rifles, guys that know how to use them. Tell them it's a competition to see who can hit a target first. Unveil a half dozen random targets at random distances simultaneously. All five of them will shoot at the same target.
Same deal with multiple coyotes. One of them just naturally attracts the cross hairs.
That's the one I always shoot first.
- DAA
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on February 07, 2011, 03:34 PM:
Over the years, I have discovered, for me, to just start close and work my way out,in other words taking the sure(most of the times) shot first, a bird in the hand, all things considered.
Took a few years, but I figured out I average more coyotes in that situation, by doing it that way. I tend to get greedy and when I use to plan on shooting from last to first, it never worked out as well for me.
Mark
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 07, 2011, 04:23 PM:
Dave, I think there is merit in your method, now that I think about it. LB
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 07, 2011, 04:23 PM:
I agree with DAA only I never really considered all that he said, I just figured maybe I was lazy in that respect, always kill the obvious one & then tend to others if you can.
Although there have been a few exceptions over the years but that was just me being fancy, it never works out the way I thought it would. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 07, 2011, 05:20 PM:
I like Dave's answer.
I hate doubles since I put away the AR's and started with the bolt guns again. I called a pair Saturday morning, had plenty of open space, they were on a dead run for the caller.
I did what I always tell people to do, take the first sure shot you get. I beared down on the first coyote right at the caller and as I was squeezing the trigger, I was looking for the second one. Ya I missed, she took off at warp speed but #2 just stood there scratching his head and wondering why the miss's was in such a hurry. I killed him and will come back later with my best "honey I'm home" howl and hope to even the score.
Reason why? Why make something more difficult? If you have an easy shot up close, why pass and try to kill the one 300 yards away? If you miss, the easy one ain't gonna be so easy. And just like bird hunting, one bird out of each covey rise will make a limit before all of them out of the same covey rise does.
[ February 07, 2011, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 07, 2011, 05:33 PM:
I shoot the one that offers the best shot first. I think that's the same thing Dave said? I've even been known to switch off the first one aquired if another gives a better option, and I see it. I'll take 1 dead coyote and 1 empty case any day over no dead coyotes and 2 or 3 or ? empty cases....even if us machine gunners have a reputation to live up to.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on February 07, 2011, 05:48 PM:
Yep, guess thats what I was sayin too really.
Mark
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 07, 2011, 06:07 PM:
I concur with everyone else, so far, close almost always. I have a hard time missing closer targets than further. Only time I will go off that rule is when I'm with a partner and the lead coyote is very apparently going to end up in my partners shooting lane at about the same time that I will have the opportunity to tap the back coyote. That way, the partner can be concentrating on the front coyote and has already aquired the target, and with some luck, the back coyote dies and the front coyote soon follows.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on February 07, 2011, 07:05 PM:
Ive always been mildly amused reading the various scenarios, far to near, near to far, male first, female first, alpha, omega(always wondered what power glass you need to check out the genitalia of a furred up coyote?)
In my world, it's always been shooting the best available shot I have, which of course is usually the closest stationary animal, as long as it is visible. Dave pretty much nailed it with his answer, more than once Ive had a partner and I shoot at the same time, and invariable shoot the same coyote.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 07, 2011, 07:19 PM:
For background on this subject, refer to the topic in this forum about encouraging a bedded coyote to stand up.
Good hunting. LB
edit: couldn't think of the exact title? it's like this: "how to entice a bedded coyote??"
[ February 07, 2011, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 07, 2011, 07:51 PM:
Having more than one coyote appear is truly the shiz, and when that happens, the hardest situation to deal with is when you have one bearing down hard and getting close enough that he could just as easily become a real bitch of a moving target should he flare left or right, as opposed to straight in or straight out while the other is still far enough out there to make himself a tough kill, too. Fact is, regardless of how you plan the outcome, take that first shot and all hell breaks loose while coyotes scatter like quail in every direction. Nothing ever works out like you plan.
Another fact is that you will never get a double unless and until you kill the first one, and when you have more than one in play, the hardest thing to overcome for someone who hasn't been there/ done that before is being able to pick one coyote out of the advancing hordes - regardless of his place in the line up - and kill it, ignoring the rest of the troops until such time as you need to deal with them.
I pick the one that seems to offer the highest percentage shot, whether he's closest, furthest, or somewhere in the middle, focus all my attention on him until he's down, then worry about number two. The worst thing you can do is be pulling to number two before the bullet leaves the barrel for number one because you got into a hurry.
As the old saying goes, you perform under stress only as well as you practice. Aim, squeeze, cycle the bolt, and aim again. Even if he's down. Snap caps and a lot of practice can definitely make you better at this aspect of the game.
Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on February 07, 2011, 08:31 PM:
If they are paired up like they are this time of year I try to shoot the smaller of the two (the female) if possible. That way maybe the population will be reduced for the landowners somewhat. The rest of the year I just take the most convenient shot and then follow up as best I can. With the close quarters in most places here in Mo. most times the second one makes it to cover unscathed.
[ February 07, 2011, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 07, 2011, 08:32 PM:
I look at it like straight pool and playing position. If you want to run the table, you need to make those chip shots as easy as possible. At some point, you might have to make a trick shot, or all your effort is wasted.
So, if you really have a crowd headed your way, you better come up with a plan real quick.....like, why did I leave my machinegun at home today, of all days?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on February 07, 2011, 09:07 PM:
In a majority of the cases where a pair was called in, when the first or closest coyote was shot it was the male. Yes I have always howled at a majority of my calling stands and the males tend to be more defensive with their approach, especially during the breeding season. It’s always a good idea to take the coyote that gives you the best shot first, but if I have a good shot at the back coyote, I will take it first and then shoot the close one with the second shot.
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 08, 2011, 02:41 AM:
When I suggested shooting the far one first, I did not mention or consider that here in farm country ,when we have multiples come everything is pretty much wide open spaces.Not like a landscape full of sage or brush.Here is usually clear shooting at coyotes that come in so my first thought is there away to kill all of them. If the first one gets within a hundred yds and the second one within two hundred it offers a very good chance of taking the near one after the far one.If I shoot the close one usually the far one is well on his way to 300yds and not a very good shot. As most posters mentioned all situations and locals are different, but I certainly see I am in the minority shooting the far one.
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on February 08, 2011, 07:56 AM:
I try for the biggest if I have a choice and hope the smaller coyotes are younger and dumber will stick around for another shot.
Posted by predatorhunter (Member # 3559) on February 08, 2011, 10:59 AM:
I agree with cdog911 most places here are tight so I'll take the easest shot first but it's not always the lead dog. This time of year if I'm hunting with a partner I tell him before we start to take the first one if he can and I'll take the furtherest one to avoid shooting the same one. I'm doing Amish transport now and that's given me alot more ground to hunt. One place is a gane preserve of 2800 acres joining the amish,they got me permission to hunt because they built the guy a barn and he said he was having coyote problems so they told him about me.I've hunted with a few of them and boy those guys can shoot.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 08, 2011, 11:43 AM:
If you think them folks can shoot, try arm wrestling one of 'em. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 08, 2011, 01:01 PM:
I just try to take them as they come in and take the higher percentage shots first and be ready to flip the switch.. You can plan in youre head all you want and in most cases the stand will not turn out like planned.. Rather than blast away at the second or third coyote as its high-tailing it out of the area I just go back to calling and works well for me when dealing with multiples..I'm also a firm believer that if the shot is'nt there just let the coyote go, there is a good chance you can call them back on the same stand or the next day... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 08, 2011, 01:04 PM:
I would also like to add that K and I occasionally will set up with him holding his rifle, and me, my shotgun. If it works out, we try to get them within shotgun range, Kevin takes the furthest one with the first shot from the rifle, and I do a follow up with the 12 gauge since it's easier to hit a runner with a shotgun than with a rifle. In the event that the coyotes are spread out, this is a situation where he would try for the furthest one first (beyond my range) and I go for the closest one as soon as he shoots. Rarely works out that way when you're properly armed, but there are times...
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 08, 2011, 03:49 PM:
After getting my fur check and seeing how much I got for XL North Western Coyotes this year I am with JohnLK.
I'm shooting the biggest one first.lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by predatorhunter (Member # 3559) on February 08, 2011, 04:01 PM:
I tried using that same setup Saturday Cdog, had good luck in the past but this weekend all the shots were rifle only all morning.The last stand I switched to a rifle and would'nt you know it, I had one come within 20yds. The Amish guy I was hunting with,found that real amusing. Kokopelli, I think I could take one;with both hands.
Posted by predatorhunter (Member # 3559) on February 08, 2011, 04:11 PM:
By the way Leonard,that Rem.7400 shoots pretty good.I put a dot scope on it for woods hunting. Not a quarter m o a gun, but great for multiples in tight woods with that dot scope on it.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 08, 2011, 05:28 PM:
ph,
It's been my experience that the best way to guarentee you 2-3 coyotes satanding broadside at 75 yards just asking to die is to carry the shotgun and leave the rifle in the truck. Works every time. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on February 09, 2011, 07:36 PM:
I alway's try and kill the one that is the farthest that i'm confident that i can hit. I feel that the most aggeresive a coyote is the better chance of calling it in on a second visit.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 09, 2011, 10:49 PM:
That's an interesting reason, Albert. But, for me and the way I hunt and where I go, and the fact that I almost never make a stand in the same place twice; your reason is sort of meaningless to me. No doubt, when you know your area and go back next week or next month, it may be a valid concept.
Question: how many times does the farthest dead animal turn out to be a female?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on February 10, 2011, 04:41 AM:
LB usually the female is the least agressive, usually!! Survival of the family etc.
Kind of like why most bar fights are men but ocassionally we luck out and it's women.
Sure is funny how if you shoot the female first you usually can get the male to stop but vice versa not near as likely. That is given the second you don't get was the female? Especially this time of year.
Posted by predatorhunter (Member # 3559) on February 10, 2011, 09:41 AM:
I'd say seven out of ten of the lead coyotes I've shot were male. I agree Coydog,but my problem using a shotgun is that in 1990 I shattered the back of my shoulder in a bike wreck and the recoil is gruesom. I still use one alot but that 7400 makes it more comfortable. Got a double with it late yesterday after work.
Posted by predatorhunter (Member # 3559) on February 10, 2011, 09:47 AM:
I never thought about it like that Albert,but it makes sense especially here where were limited to on the amount of land we can hunt.
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on February 10, 2011, 10:25 AM:
Hunting quail with an elder Gent when I was a kid. On almost every flush he got a double with his double. I was not that good, he told me
"do not hurry, you can't get a double unless you kill the first one"
I live by that, kill the one I can, try for the second.
Carl
Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on February 10, 2011, 03:40 PM:
Shoot the close easy one thats the "done deal" first. Then try to pick up the extras on the way out.
Take a chance on the further/less easy opportunity and mess it up and you have a real high percentage of looking like an ass all together when the easy one gets away too.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2011, 05:24 PM:
Well, I'm glad we cleared that up. For a while there, I thought I may have missed some new strategy. As they say in that Geico commercial, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. This all presupposes that there isn't some other consideration, and as long as you can justify it, you have my blessing.
Gud hunting. El Be
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on February 13, 2011, 08:19 AM:
As with most coyote calling topics, there is a lot of variables to consider with this one as well.
If the contact is close and cover is near, you have to take what you can get. If the country is more open, you have a better chance of setting the situation up for multiple coyotes.
Other factors to consider is distance to each coyote, distance to non visible escape routes from each coyote, shotgun and/or rifle shots, whether I believe the coyotes will know where the shot came from, remote caller vs. hand held, etc. Rifle suppression changes the game further.
Basically, with each situation you are weighing how effective you will be at killing the next coyote. It can really be fun when the coyotes don't know where the first shot came from and the second coyote offers a nice standing or easy broadside running shot.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here, which I believe is the most important factor in killing multiple coyotes, is trying to keep them bunched IF POSSIBLE. Granted, that's not always possible but I have found that combining howling and low volume distress calls can keep coyotes bunched more than just using distress calls at normal volume. If the coyotes can't detect the exact source of the sound, it can stall the front coyotes while the back coyotes are still coming. In addition to that, being partially visible as opposed to fully camoflauged also helps keep them bunched. Give them something to look at that they cannot identify.
When coyotes are responsive, distress calls when used alone at normal volume usually creates a race to see which coyote will get there first. That is a typical situation most callers face with coyotes that I try to avoid if possible. In contrast, combining howling and barely audible distress calls or lip squeaks can keep coyotes from charging. Again, being partially visible also keeps them from running over you which is why I don't wear face camo unless I am wanting them tight for a shotgun situation. If the only sound you are using is rabbit distress at normal volume, you are only packing a rifle, and you are fully camoflauged, good luck trying to handle coyotes properly for a higher percent of multiples because it's usually a coyote race to see who will get there first.
At times I have moved my gloved hand to stop the first coyote so the second could get within range. Handling coyotes on a stand has a lot of similarities with team roping. You have to time everything perfect and you have to forsee what's going to happen before it happens.
The next variable to consider is whether I am only carrying a rifle or whether I have a shotgun with me. If I have a shotgun, I will try to get everything into 4 buck range and line them up swinging through them.
If I am just packing a rifle, I will first try to get them all within good rifle range then take the first sure shot and follow up with the best opportunity for a good second shot on the run. The distance is not as important as the angle of departure. I don't want them too close with a rifle or it's too difficult to swing with them with a scope that's probably still on 10x. If the second coyote is quartering away, it's a better shot as long as it's within say 250 yards so you don't have to worry about lead, wind drift, and holdover. I'd rather only have to worry about lead.
Incidentally, I posted this a while back but a coyote running 30 mph broadside at a 90 degree angle at 50 yards will eat up 5' of lead with Hevy Shot "Dead Coyote". At the same distance and coyote speed, the lead with a .243 will be 2'.
A coyote running 25 mph at 200 yards broadside will eat up 7' of lead with a rifle with a muzzle velocity of 3300.
Before someone goes there, no I am not suggesting you have time to calculate every shot. If you watch 10 guys shoot at running coyotes, 9 of them will shoot behind them. You need to have some idea what the lead will be for each situation.
The difference between men who consistantly kill more multiple coyotes than others is in their ability to shoot running coyotes and setting up those shots. A broadside coyote gives you 2 feet of target to shoot at. That shouldn't be a problem for any of us with a shotgun when it's within 50 yards. Remember, 5' of lead with a shotgun and a broadside running coyote at that range.
Another factor to consider is which coyote is the closest to cover. That may be the coyote to shoot first because the second coyote offers a better opportunity for a running shot.
It's a judgement call each and every time. There is certainly no set of rules for me on which coyote to shoot first. The bottom line is I will shoot the coyote that offers me the best chance at killing the rest because when it comes to killing coyotes, I'll admit that I'm greedy.
~SH~
[ February 13, 2011, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 14, 2011, 05:12 AM:
Great post Wiley,lot of my own considerations. When I started calling the situation involved getting as many killed as possible because the number of coyotes chewing up irrigation was the problem. Wanted as many killed as possible and I was always told don't let any get away if possible. Always involved a shotgun and rifle.Carried that over into the calling and hunting I do now, but don't often take the shotgun now, seem to experience less multiples than used to so got lazy about taking two guns.
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 14, 2011, 06:11 PM:
" If the coyotes can't detect the exact source of the sound, it can stall the front coyotes while the back coyotes are still coming. In addition to that, being partially visible as opposed to fully camoflauged also helps keep them bunched. Give them something to look at that they cannot identify."
Scott, I'm sure that I've read some where that you said a coyote can pin point the source of sound to with-in a few feet from a half mile away, so how does one keep them from pin pointing the source of sound?
One thing I have noticed over the years is if the coyote is coming from over a hill and doesn't get over the hill with-in eye sight of the source of sound while the sound is still being made, it won't have it pin pointed nearly as well as when it's with-in eye shot of the source, no matter how far out it is. Thing is if you don't know that they are coming to the call, one can't guess when to stop calling before they break over a hill to be with-in eye shot.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 14, 2011, 07:39 PM:
quote:
I'm sure that I've read some where that you said a coyote can pin point the source of sound to with-in a few feet from a half mile away, so how does one keep them from pin pointing the source of sound?
You can bounce the sound waves off of small ridges that are close to youre stand or some other types of structure rocks, tree's, brush ect. which will confuse the coyote to the actual
source... The caller can also be placed out of site which will cause the coyote to stick around longer and look or perhaps move in a little closer...
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 14, 2011, 08:56 PM:
Fire at will, JD!
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 14, 2011, 10:10 PM:
I dont know what to say!? This one is going in the TA archive for sure.
Scott, good point concerning how much to lead a runner, not many people put the math to it, its good to keep those things in the back of your mind on a stand.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 14, 2011, 10:51 PM:
So whats the problem this time. You don't think the sound from a E-caller will bounce off of ridges or other structures and give the coyote the impression its comeing from somewhere else.. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2011, 11:14 PM:
Now you gone and done it, Tim! JD doesn't know what to say.
I think that your last sentence is more than the first. I'm going to laminate it for my wallet.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 14, 2011, 11:23 PM:
Good idea..
Edit to add. So what are you saying. A coyote won't stick around longer or work the stand more searching for the source of the sound...
[ February 14, 2011, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 15, 2011, 12:06 AM:
Tim, you are obviously far more advanced than we give you credit for, you must be a coyotes worst nightmare what with your ability to "throw" the sound of your caller around at will so that the coyote becomes dazed and confused to the point that they wander around aimlessly and come closer to the call unknowingly then BOOOOOM you and the pred drop on them like the hammer of Thor!!! Hell yea!!! Teach me Oh Great One!
Tim, you may have guessed, I dont like you, not because you constantly show your ass on the boards, thats just a bonus, I dont like you because you`re a liberal Obama supporting asshole, I dont show favoritism I hate all you liberal fucks the same. So dont be discouraged, keep on posting your nuggets of wisdom for all coyote hunters to enjoy, it doesnt matter what you post, your liberal double talk shows up in everything you do and say and I intend to make you pay every chance I get. And you thought I didnt like you because you`re an idiot.
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on February 15, 2011, 05:53 AM:
TRnCO: "Scott, I'm sure that I've read some where that you said a coyote can pin point the source of sound to with-in a few feet from a half mile away, so how does one keep them from pin pointing the source of sound?"
Good question and this certainly needs further explanation.
As with anything coyote, this "sound origination" statement probably should have been preceeded with a disclaimer such as "in the typical calling situation that I see" or something like that.
Of course strong winds, echoing, volume, structure, and possibly other variables will change this to some degree from one situation to the next.
Generally speaking, in many situations with very little wind, very little structure, more open ground, and very little echoing, if a coyote hears a rabbit or another coyote at a distance of 1/2 - 3/4 mile and if they do not hear that sound again, they will approach on a straight line and stop when they are fairly close then look for the exact origination of the sound. In this situation, they usually do not run right to the source of the sound but rather they will stop at 150 - 100 yards and stare very close to the origination of the sound. I am talking about when they obviously cannot see me such as when I am in full snow camo. Of course if you contrast from your surroundings, they will see you which is not necessarily a bad thing unless your human form is very obvious. My own observations have proved this "sound origination theory" to me many times because I would hear a coyote answer then watch them approach. Without calling again, when they were within say 150 - 100 yards, they would stop and stare at the origination of the sound. At times I have seen them stop and look around not sure exactly where the sound originated but, by their actions, they know it came from there somewhere.
In this case, where you called then waited, the lead coyotes uncertainty gives trailing coyotes time to catch up which allows you a better opportunity at multiple coyotes. Make sense?
Now if you are calling continually, USUALLY the lead coyote will run right to the exact source of the sound without any hesitation. By calling continually, you remove any doubt to the origination of the sound. The closer they get, the closer they detect the exact origination of the sound when you call continually. In this situation, you are usually forced to shoot at the first coyote before the others arrive.
Keep in mind that I am used to calling in fairly open country where seeing a coyote approach the stand is fairly normal. As long as they are coming, I don't call especially with multiple coyotes for the reasons stated.
If you have habitat that will hide a coyote's approach and you usually don't see them until they are on top of you and you are calling more often, in that situation you are less likely to keep them bunched or get them to stop because they usually know exactly where the sound came from and they are charging it.
Thanks for pointing out what appeared to be a contradiction. The difference is in their confidence level to the origination of the sound.
Along these lines, I believe it's best to call from some sort of structure or habitat that would hide the animal you are trying to present. If you are calling from a bare hillside on full snow cover in snow camo, the coyotes may hold up because they can see the general area where the sound originated from but there is nothing there to see which is not natural. In contrast, if you are calling from soapweeds or sage brush, this would hide a coyote or rabbit from view and appears much more natural and enticing. I have seen SOME coyotes approach these bare sidehill stands, not see anything, then start to shy away because it just doesn't appear natural to them. Some of them know something is not right.
In fairness to TA, echoing and structure can confuse coyotes to the origination of the sound but neither is a consideration for stand selection. Rather, I locate the coyotes and determine my approach according to wind and structure. If echoing happens to occur at the stand, it's by chance rather than by design. Remote capabilities with an e-caller does allow you more possibilities with handling coyotes by where you place the caller.
~SH~
[ February 15, 2011, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 15, 2011, 08:17 AM:
Scott, alot of what you`ve said should be obvious, I understand that you were clarifying a previous point but something that may not be obvious is what you said about the coyote being able to see something to identify the sound, I never would`ve believed it until I stumbled onto this truth by accident a few years ago. I have one area in particular with little to no cover and almost invariably I`ll shut down the caller once the coyote checks at about 400yds, lip squeak while waving my hand and they typically will get up and walk in to about 50 yds while fixated on my hand, damndest thing I ever saw, kinda goes against the basic rules of concealment. Interesting stuff that you said about multiples too, very interesting.
As far as being "fair" with TA....he presented his statements in the context that sounds could be manipulated & controlled in such a way as to purposely confuse a coyote on the way in to a call by bouncing them off of rocks and other structure which is of course total bullshit.....I think I`ve been plenty fair with him, rude, but fair.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 15, 2011, 09:18 AM:
?
[ February 15, 2011, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 15, 2011, 09:24 AM:
quote:
I dont like you because you`re a liberal Obama supporting asshole, I dont show favoritism I hate all you liberal fucks the same.
First off I could care less... Second you are a little confused or misinformed. I did'nt vote for Obma and I don't support him anymore than Leonard or Paul...
Sure the Government is fucked up, its not my fault..If you are looking for someone to blame then point youre finger at Leonard and Paul and some of the other old farts that helped make this mess..
I'm not a Liberal, Dem, or republican, not that its any of youre business.. If and when i vote, I do so for who-ever I wish...
For some people they can't go through life without haveing something to bitch about, I could care less and tend to look more to the posative direction, makes life that much more enjoyable.. Now go do something posative with youre life rather than roll-around on the ground kicking and screaming like a little baby.. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 15, 2011, 10:00 AM:
quote:
As far as being "fair" with TA....he presented his statements in the context that sounds could be manipulated & controlled in such a way as to purposely confuse a coyote on the way in to a call by bouncing them off of rocks and other structure which is of course total bullshit.....I think I`ve been plenty fair with him, rude, but fair.
So now you are saying sound will not bounce back off from solid structures like rock or ridges and so on..
Well maybe you should get ahold of the navey and let them know that there sonar is'nt working..LOL
All I was saying is that it happens and in some cases a caller shouldbe aware of this.. You can have the sound blowing out into a area into the coyotes face and have it bounce back off of structer like a ridge or revine and it will confuse the coyote as to the direction from which it is comeing from. Depending on what sounds are used and the amount of volume it can work in youre favor or at times against you..
Just like calling down a deep drainage vrs. flat open country. The sound will carry farther down a deep drainage than it will over open ground.
Just like in this short video where I had a pair come in. I took the first coyote out as soon as it showed up while the second was still in the drainage. The second coyote appears not sure of where the sound is comeing from and also the added scent of its mate thats laying dead in the grass.. The second coyote could'nt see its mate but smelled it which added to the confusion and kept the coyote in front long enough for me to get off a shot..
[URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/th_Deletepart ially3of9172010_133847.jpg[/IMG]]2[/URL]
Most of my calling is done around drainages so I don't have to look for certain structure and such, its everywhere.LOL
[ February 15, 2011, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2011, 10:41 AM:
See, this is where you get out on a limb, Tim. By virtue of being "old" you suggest that I'm responsible for the recession as well as Obama getting elected president. That is patently false and I resent being lumped in with the likes of Paul, who MAY VERY WELL BE responsible!
Quit generalizing! You're just like everybody from Minneesota.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 15, 2011, 11:13 AM:
quote:
By virtue of being "old" you suggest that I'm responsible for the recession as well as Obama getting elected president
JD blames me so I'm blameing you, I could just as well throw Paul in . Don't want you to feel alone...
Actually what I ment was its not just you but the older generation that made it what it is today..
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 15, 2011, 12:55 PM:
Wait uh fuquen minute here! Im not old or responsible for the liberal bastard in the white house. How the hell did I get pulled into this thread.
P.s. shoot the sure thing first may be the only fur in the truck that day.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2011, 01:40 PM:
QUIT WHINING, PAUL!
Somebody is responsible. It could very well be you. I have heard you speak favorably of "The One" several times. Can you prove your innocence, otherwise you sound guilty, to me, and especially, to Tim?
koko; yes or no?
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 15, 2011, 01:58 PM:
Your right Leonard ! I didnt vote for him but I should have then I could at least say Id been dupped.as it is now Im just suffering for nuthin.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2011, 03:17 PM:
Confession is good for the soul, Paul. I seem to recall a OBAMA/BIDEN bumper sticker on that beat up Chevy?
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 15, 2011, 03:21 PM:
Thats quite a dance you do whenever someone zeros in on your bullshit Tim, anyhow it IS your fault because you ARE a liberal, stop blaming the true americans and take your medicine bitch. You are a lucky sonofabitch Tim, it seems that the old political forum from the darkside has become invisible, the powers that be over there have no use for that sort of shit nowadays otherwise I would post your own words and settle this dispute about your liberal ways once and for all. You just keep dancing and back pedaling Timmy.
You guys didnt think my sig line was just random did you, he`s a liberal, trust me.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 15, 2011, 04:34 PM:
No I'm not a liberal, I'm netrual. I vote for who ever I want that I feel is right for the job..
But just for arguments sake If I'm a liberal whats that make you? A "PIG" or a "Jackass"?????
Edit to add.. JD you better get another supply of KY jelly. According to Paul, Obama is going to fuck you another four years..LOL
[ February 15, 2011, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on February 15, 2011, 04:55 PM:
Your Wrong Tim That A-hole couldnt get lucky in a womens prison.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 15, 2011, 06:21 PM:
quote:
I'm netrual.
What? You`re neutered?! That explains why you voted for Obama.
Tim, did you call me a pig and a jackass?
Thats hurtful, why do you have to be so rude?
Paul, I have no idea how you got drug into this, I apologize
Well buckethead(thats you Tim)....it`s been fun yet pointless, I`ll get back to messin with you some other time. In the mean time, please keep on posting, its rather entertaining.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 15, 2011, 07:17 PM:
Golly jeepers. Back in the day before e-callers and high technology, I didn't bother myself with making bankshots with sounds off canyon walls like in some old "B" western movie to confuse the coyote. I just, as Scott said earlier, read the coyote's body language from afar. Always been amazed at how close they can get to the source with very little to go off of. If he was coming in, I shut the hell up and let him come on in. If somewhere between where I first saw him and where he got sidetracked, he began trekking off course and I needed to, uh, coax him back toward me, I simply game him a couple soft coaxing squeaks with my lips, or maybe off the tips of my AP-6 with the end of the call buried down into my jacket so as not to give the coyote such a specific point of focus. Worked back then, and works now.
In another post, someone made the point that using e-callers and hand calls concurrently involved, for them, getting their attention with the hand calls and fine tuning their focus into the killing field with the e-caller to direct the coyote away from the hunter(s). Same goes here, but vice versa. Call them from afar with the big speaker and, if you have to, tweak their approach with a couple very subtle lipsqueaks once they get somewhat close. Low-tech to no-tech, but deadly efficient.
[ February 15, 2011, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on February 16, 2011, 09:33 AM:
Thanks Scott for all your comments in reference to the current calling situation with all the new callers that are attempting to call coyotes today. My current health conditions and the required use of a wheelchair are limiting my calling opportunities. I sure miss all the good days we had calling together when we worked as SD ADC Trappers. It’s GREAT to see all the comments that you post with your past calling and ADC work experiences.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 16, 2011, 04:47 PM:
SD Howler ,
Don't be TOO nice to Scott. His head will swell up like a watermelon, and his cap will no longer fit.
Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on February 16, 2011, 06:13 PM:
Rich:
I can see Scott smiling already when he reads your comments. We worked together for a number of years with SD GF&P. Scott was always a go-getter as a trapper and his love for calling coyotes just never stops. The SD program has been going through some funding losses and personnel changes. I sure enjoyed the 15 years when I worked with that program.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 17, 2011, 10:06 AM:
SD Howler,
Yes, Scott is the real deal but boy is he ever ugly. I think maybe he is part coyote, I mean he sure resembles one when he grins. Uses himself for a decoy ya see. A walking coyote decoy, now that's kinda handy.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 17, 2011, 10:22 AM:
He for sure "sounds" like one. I still need to get me a Krusty Comer or whatever you call those hats if I wanna look the part?
Boy, Howdy!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on February 19, 2011, 01:42 PM:
Cdog911,
Interesting thought on using hand calls and e-caller in combination. That may have some merit.
What I find interesting, within the topic of call authenticity, I cannot remember a coyote that ever showed anything but a positive reaction to a lip squeak. I often wondered what it sounds like to them. All I know is that it's probably the best call I have ever used. Unfortunately, it's distance is limited.
Steve T.
Thanks for the kind words. Those were really good days and I sure appreciate all the time we spent together and all the important elements of this job you taught me or helped me with. I didn't take what I learned from others for granted.
Unfortunately this program is not what it once was. I'd love to get together sometime Steve and talk about better days.
Rich: "Yes, Scott is the real deal but boy is he ever ugly."
Why thank you very little Rich. LOL!
~SH~
[ February 20, 2011, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on February 20, 2011, 03:48 PM:
JD: "Scott, alot of what you`ve said should be obvious,...."
I agree, it should have been obvious.
JD to TA: "Thats hurtful, why do you have to be so rude?"
LOL! That was funny considering a recent post I remember where you lost all control.
~SH~
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 22, 2011, 07:19 PM:
quote:
LOL! That was funny considering a recent post I remember where you lost all control.
~SH~
I think you meant to say "ALL" my recent posts. It was meant to be funny, thanks for noticing.
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 23, 2011, 04:01 AM:
terrain will help my decision. i've tried shooting the farthest first thinking the close one would be an easy thing but it seldom works out that way.expecially with varied terrain. .i'd rather take the female first if i can no mater where she is
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2011, 08:34 AM:
I got confused? A whole page, not on topic, not even close. I had to scroll to the top before I remembered that bearhunter was maybe talking about female bears or some such? I think I agree what he said?
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS one of these days I'm going to ask him what minnefornia means? But that would be off topic.
[ February 23, 2011, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 23, 2011, 06:30 PM:
"What I find interesting, within the topic of call authenticity, I cannot remember a coyote that ever showed anything but a positive reaction to a lip squeak. I often wondered what it sounds like to them. All I know is that it's probably the best call I have ever used. Unfortunately, it's distance is limited."
I witnessed something interesting this summer while at work. We have several cottontails that are about half tame and they hang around the buildings all the time. They do get harrassed at night by the local coyotes and the birds of prey, so they're not tame in the sense that you can catch them, but they will allow us to walk to with-in 20 or 30 yards of them before they bolt. BUT, just screwing around this summer, I starting lip squeeking to see what a rabbit would do and I actually called two different bunnys to with-in a few feet of me. I mean these two rabbits, at seperate times, started about 30 or 40 yards from me and when I lip squeeked, they come running, just like a guy would like to see a coyote do.
With that said, it made me beleive that my lip squeek must sound a lot like a baby bunny in distress.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 23, 2011, 07:24 PM:
Along that same line, TR, I had a cottontail that kept getting into my garden this summer. Finally having had enough, I grabbed the .22 and set out to fix my problem. Except, the bunny had escaped into grassy field behind my house. I could see him about thirty yards away, but he was hunkered down. I threw a couple clods of dirt near him to try and stand him up but all he did was hunker down tighter. Finally, I did a couple very short whines as high-pitched as I could and his head popped right up, then exploded. Go figure.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2011, 11:59 PM:
Shit, I have had jacks climb trees just to see where the distress was coming from. And, I kid you not.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 25, 2011, 03:18 PM:
Probably not wanting to see where the distress is coming from but rather wanting to see the carnage, like so many humans on the highways like to do. Since we don't have trees where I do most of my calling, most jacks just run to the highest hill near by to do the same.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2011, 03:44 PM:
Maybe wondering if his Martha was getting eaten? Hell, I don't know if your anthropomorphism slanted reason will ever be known? Do jackrabbits feel pain, emotion, shed tears? Or, is it limited to curiosity?
If anybody would know, it would be someone like Scott Francom, (Internationally noted authority) because he hunts a lot, from a ladder. He will probably email me, as usual. I will keep the troops informed as soon as I know anything. This is important, I hope he doesn't keep us waiting!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 15, 2011, 07:54 PM:
If i can sex them the female first withing reason.
Disclaimer: I came in late and didn't have time to read all of this stuff so this is just my two cents!! LOLOLOL
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