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Author
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Topic: Scent covers
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted August 20, 2011 06:01 PM
I am curious as to your thoughts on scent sprays to minimize your human odor on a calling stand. Please no product promotions because a buddy sells it. I want to know what facts or observations you have made regarding scent covers to determine their value.
Keep in mind that coyotes in areas of continual human contact or areas where coyotes may associate a good experience with human odor will react differently than areas of less human activity or areas where coyotes associate negative experiences with human odor.
I'll wade in on this later but let me give you a few observations to help frame the debate...
1. A bird dog will point a bird with a bird in it's mouth.
2. A bloodhound, under certain conditions, can track an individual human down city streets.
3. A bird dog can point a bird after taking a full load of skunk in the face.
4. A drug dog can find cocaine in cargo loads of fish.
5. I have personally watched a coyote stick it's nose in my track in the snow and continue to come in until it hit my actual scent then turn tail and run.
Your thoughts?
~SH~
[ August 20, 2011, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 20, 2011 07:09 PM
I saw a called coyote, run in on our stand from downwind, and he ran in on the same single trac all three of us used to walk in ourselves. No cover scent was used. I can't imamgine he could not have smelled us.
Perhaps he was dumb, or extremely hungry. But he was "dead forever" after that mistake.
I am curious about this myself.
[ August 20, 2011, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 20, 2011 08:26 PM
I have one of those yard bug foggers thats hand held and its rather interesting to see how the fog behaves with different temps, humidity and a lite breeze.. I would think our scent behaves in the same way.
As a caller walks into a stand with a lite breeze I don't believe our scent goes straight to the ground in some cases but up and away and this maybe why some coyotes can come in on our foot prints and not scent anything..
I've hunted with bird dogs and know that the dog works best hunting into the wind and if its a little stronger than 10 mph the dog has a harder time finding the birds and will get worse as the wind speed is increased.. I've also noticed when a dog works a birds scent trail its a pretty small window (stream) for them to pick on on just a step or two puts them off the scent..
I've followed coyote tracks in the snow in a CRP field and notice a coyote hunts roughly the same way and also noticed its nose is'nt as good as some may think it is..
The coyote starts out on a straight line and just keeps going in one direction pretty much and may vear off from its course 10-15 yds in most cases and pick up a mouse or vole and then continue on.. If its nose was as good as some think then the coyote tracks wouldbe more direct and straight to its prey each time..
[ August 20, 2011, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 20, 2011 08:43 PM
I know we can't beat a coyotes nose but I read a reply by Rich Higgins that made me think.
He said it could minimise our scent enough to make the coyote think we're farther away than we are, or something like that.
Having raised bird dogs, I've seen them run a trail a ways then backtrack realizing they were going the wrong way. This is where I think Rich's comment has value. If we can fool them so they don't know which way we went or how far we are, it could be beneficial and increase their comfort zone.
As for products, I wear rubber boots alot and have used some scent sprays but maybe a charcoal suit could work?
I've never really seen any of the sprays work. I have seen the boots make a difference, especially with deer. Course Copenhagen on stand doesn't help or any other scent that comes as you breathe...
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 20, 2011 09:00 PM
Cover scent is worthless when used for the purpose of fooling the nose of a coyote.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted August 21, 2011 03:13 AM
i've only did the scent contoll thing 1 time that was an all out affair. my brother and i were in a tournament. every stich of clothing we were to wea that day was washed in noscent soap and than put in the dryer with boxes of baking soda. even our underware and bino harnesses and packs. also showered before heading out. our clothing was literally white with b/s. started calling about 8.00 am and we were done by about 3.00pm. the day started out SUPER foggy with a slight 5mph breeze. viz was no more that 100 yards from 8 to about 1pm. that day we called in 21 coyotes and killed 15. farthest shot was maybe 125. all others were much closer. some at 20 yards. most were 30-50 yards. going by memory, at least 10 of those came straight in downwind or crossed our scent stream. a couple wwould slightly slow down when crossing our scent but NONE got spooked at all.this area we hunted has a very low population of people with little to no hunting (calling) pressure. this hunt took place on oct 30th last year. never really checked on adult to YOY status as we were to busy and having the time of our lives to check. all i do know is we took extreame measures and had the best day of coyote #'s that i've ever heard of. conclude what you will. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
15 coyote on top. gotsome strange looks and a few fist pumps on the road back to check in ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ August 21, 2011, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted August 21, 2011 06:32 AM
I have never botherd with scent killers when coyote hunting my only experience with them is archery deer hunting.Wnile on an archery hunt in northern Az. I used this product from H.S. on the recomendation of Steve Criner I literally drenched myself in the stuff spraying everything bow,stool cloting to the point they were wet. I set up on the ground in some ferns and waited . Long story short I had a deer come in behind me not 3- ft. from me and it had no idea I was there After some time I turned to see if it had gone and it broke out like a rocket scared the shit out of both of us.The deer must have stood there for at least 8- 10 min.This is one experience so I cant draw any hard conclusions from it but it amazed me.I can say the product did nothing to keep the chiggers off worst infestation of my life holy shit that itches.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 21, 2011 08:09 AM
quote:
I am curious as to your thoughts on scent sprays to minimize your human odor on a calling stand.
I have no opinion, I think? Never used anything that would be described as a commercial cover scent, if that is what is meant by, "scent sprays"?
What I have done is rubbed my clothing and boots (vigorously) with sage buds. It sort of enhances confidence, if nothing else?
I have built a fire specifically for the purpose of standing downwind and bathing in the smoke.
Do either of these things "minimize my human odor"? I think it's doubtful, but I agree that (in some cases) it's a matter of proximity and freshness, for lack of a better word.
Have I watched a coyote that wouldn't come out of the downwind brush come out of the brush after I left a stand and watched from a distance? Yes. And, does the coyote sniff the exact spot very intently, knowing that the human has left the area? Yes, again.
Therefore, a snootful of human scent might not spook a coyote, if he is reasonably sure that a human is no longer present, in the direction of the human scent that he detects.
As far as TA's comment about the quality of a coyote's nose.....don't bet on it. I think it could well be every bit as good as a bloodhound and probably a lot better than the average dog.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 21, 2011 09:03 AM
Leonard not saying a coyote's nose is no better than a dogs, just saying for it to work the weather or grond conditions have to be perfect..Most times its not...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted August 21, 2011 09:05 AM
quote:
its nose is'nt as good as some may think it is..
Are you serious Tim. Its nose(olfactory) is one of the most powerful senses a coyote has.
quote:
The coyote starts out on a straight line and just keeps going in one direction pretty much and may vear off from its course 10-15 yds in most cases and pick up a mouse or vole and then continue on.. If its nose was as good as some think then the coyote tracks wouldbe more direct and straight to its prey each time..
In your scenerio here, the coyote traveling along more than likely heard a vole/mouse under the snow. This drew its attention and useing its nose, it was ablle to pinpoint and confirm its prey under the snow.
I think the problem is that we as humans try to put a 'visual' explanation on odor/scent. Truthfully, its probably because it is our best way to comprehend it in our minds. We do this when we describe our scent cone as a flowing rift of scent. This is all fine, because it is all we need to understand when calling coyotes. Truthfully though, I would wager that a coyotes nose is picking up and analysing much more info than we can comprehend. I do believe distance to source is part of that info. Given that, it can be used to help locate a source of either food or danger. The inate(or learned) responce will depend on which it is. This is where I think misting works(never tried it...my humble guess). The down wind pause is an 'analysis break' or a scensory overload as some have described it.
So given all that, I think that scent block clothing/cover scent may give the occasional edge (if nothing more than creating a pause in its reaction), I just am not going to go to the trouble.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted August 21, 2011 09:42 AM
Scent has a range of intensities that fall between when you are on stand producing it in high gear to where you have walked or knelt 3 or 4 days previously.
For most coyotes, their reaction to scent falls somewhere in that range depending on the coyotes experiences with humans.
Like Scott said, I have seen my hounds run a coon with their muzzles yellow from skunk. Also run a fresh coyote track 10-15 yards to the downwind side. But I have also seen instances when the scent was sealed in.
Soft,fluffy snow falling back into the tracks as the coyote ran.
A hard frost on bare ground that as it thaws the dogs can run a coon track underneath.
Or they can run a frozen track in the snow that is 2-3 days old when the sun softens it.
And an east wind is really bad for smelling. I have never had much luck calling with an east wind. Day or night.
When I first started trapping coyotes, I wore rubber boots and rubber gloves while setting. 2-3 days before a visit. As the years past, I became much faster while making a set. Shucked the rubber boots and gloves and now expect a coyote the next morning with good sign. I attribute it to leaving much less scent because my time making the set is much less.
I have never used the sprays or suits. And I dont plan on it. I am highly skeptical that a spray could do any good, but if one of those carbon/silver lined suits could filter your scent to make it appear not fresh...maybe it could work???
I know how easy Tim thinks the calling is in Texas, but practically every coyote that manages
to get down wind bugs-out. However, I have seen some in remote, northern Arizona that did not associate danger with my scent. As Scott says, lots of variables.
[ August 21, 2011, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: R.Shaw ]
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 21, 2011 10:37 AM
quote:
I know how easy Tim thinks the calling is in Texas, but practically every coyote that manages
to get down wind bugs-out.
and previously says...
quote:
I am highly skeptical that a spray could do any good,
Assume a few animals manage to get downwind, either while you are working a different one in a different direction, or he was blocked out by various terrain features.
If you had been misting rabbit and coyote urine, you would stand a decent chance of killing those downwind coyotes before they bug out. You pretty much have to observe this, to appreciate it.
Is it worth it? Sometimes, probably not, especially on day stands when they don't bother to go downwind until they figure out that something ain't right, and are usually dead before that happens.
However, on those particular nights when every coyote automatically goes downwind, and won't stop for a shot until he gets there, if you have been misting, then misting is a useful tool and you will kill coyotes that you otherwise would not have even got a shot at.
So, misting is either way overrated, if you don't understand it, or nice to have when every coyote counts and you do understand how it works.
But, in the context of the original question, it is not germane as I understand the question.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 21, 2011 10:47 AM
quote:
Is it worth it? Sometimes, probably not, especially on day stands when they don't bother to go downwind until they figure out that something ain't right, and are usually dead before that happens.
Never got around to trying misting but believe it does have merit even on a day stand, but like you said just kill them before they get there (down wind)..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted August 21, 2011 12:12 PM
Leonard...the spray I was referring to was the same Paul made mention of in an earlier post. The kind you spray on your clothes and equipment. Just like 'spray' and carbon suits, I have no experience with misting. But I do understand the concept.
Tim says... quote:
just kill them before they get there (down wind)..
You always make it sound so easy. Just once I would like to see you up in the chair running the light, running the caller, and running the rifle. Your first circle you mark your downwind with a bush or tree and start the stand. Suddenly a coyote comes running hell-bent for that bush...looking right at you the entire time, but stopping for nothing until destination is reached. And the sheep rancher whose ranch you are on is sitting in the cab of the truck. Yep...no pressure and easy as pie. LOL
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 21, 2011 12:29 PM
Maybe try a sound that dose'nt get the coyote so excited or call less.. As for the lite, mount it to the chair or rifle so you don't have to hold it in your hand. Maybe use two lites with a toggle one set for close and the other tilted up for farther out.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted August 21, 2011 08:08 PM
Bwaaaaaaah Haaaaaaaa!!!! Now that is some solid advice coming from someone who is obviously "in the know" on EVERYTHING!!! What a hoot t-bag, you never fail to entertain, carry on.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted August 22, 2011 02:15 AM
I've often wondered about the rubber boots approach. Even I can smell the rubber and one would think that would eventually cause a coyote to associate that smell with danger (human).
Also different breeds of humans smell differently mostly due to what they eat. So I have also wondere that if say someone from another country would have that "human" scent to startle a coyote.
I was told by a higly regarded person in the trapping fraternity that many years ago upon setting their traps that they would light up a menthol cigarette and leave it burning by their trap set. Said that the smell was irresistible to coyotes.
And... I generally tromp around in the ashes of a campfire before leaving for a morning deer hunt. Not sure if it works but was told by an oldtimer that that is what one is supposed to do when I was young. I have also done the sagebrush thing as well.
I also believe that the guerilla tactics used in calling predators does not generally afford any cover scent the time necessary for it to be all that effective.
I would imagine that cover scents work but I more readidly believe what was mentioned by Leonard that it builds confidence and strongly believe that confidence breeds success.
In the past I have equated cover scents to a rabbit's foot. I can't prove they work but you can't prove they don't.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
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SD Howler
taught Huber everything he knows, but not everything HE knows!
Member # 3669
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posted August 22, 2011 08:33 AM
I try to keep as scent free as possible, but my main concern is watching the downwind side when calling. Dealing with educated coyotes is a real challenge.
Another question, how many of you smoke when you are driving between calling stands?
[ August 22, 2011, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: SD Howler ]
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Steve
Predator Calling
rattler51@pie.midco.net
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 22, 2011 08:48 AM
quote:
Another question, how many of you smoke when you are driving between calling stands?
I always smoke a cigar while driving between stands.
Which is one of the reasons I've never bothered with any kind of cover scent.
When I was a kid, going with my Dad, he used to use some fox or rabbit urine on a piece of cloth tied into his boot laces, and he'd have me do the same. I honestly can't remember whether I ever noticed any effect from that or not. But that's about the only experience with cover scent I have.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted August 22, 2011 10:18 AM
Here's my .02. People generally stink. Some stink less than others. I try to stink less. I use in my every day life no products that are perfumed. Period. I use unscented soap, deodorant, laudry detergent, shampoo, etc. etc. It is amazing when you get all that shit out of your life how far you can smell a person and how much they stink from cologne,shampoo, etc. Kind of like how a non smoker can smell a smoker at a distance. I think the sprays can help if you are already de-perfumed. I use them extensively for deer and elk archery hunting and occasionally for coyotes. But you have to get the perfume out of your life first. The whole family is here. Even the fabic softener and all my wife buys are perfume and dye free.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 22, 2011 10:43 AM
I've been known to work a stand with a HavaTampa clamped between my teeth, lit or not.
These things, rubber boots, exhaust fumes, wet leather, deodorant and other scents from civilization are probably not unknown to some of the responding predators.
Attempting to "conceal" these odors is problematic and brings us back to the original question; level of concentration, dilution and attempting to mix odors associated with humans with odors that we think might not be?
Most likely, a coyote is acquainted with most of them and filters out those that he doesn't process as food or a threat, I think most moderately intelligent people would be skeptical about a product that "eliminates" odor, as some of the room sprays advertise.
So, a coyote sneaks in downwind and smells human stuff and another scent that is intended to "cover" the other smells. At this point, will the coyote decide that other stuff is to be disregarded due to the presence of a magic cover scent?
Or, have we jumped to the belief that the human is now sort of invisible, because he is using "cover scent"? Please raise your hand.
Consider for a moment, all those human smells drifting downwind and additionally, there is a concentration of rabbit urine and coyote urine along with everything else. Will he run off, or will he continue to sniff? Well, some of us will continue to concentrate on dusting that circling coyote long before he gets downwind. However. This is not always possible, is it?
gh....lb
edit: Cal, you "dip" occasionally?
[ August 22, 2011, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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JohnLK
Pro-Staff Great/Michigan Sector
Member # 1978
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posted August 22, 2011 12:38 PM
There has been times when I shot a coyote and thought it was directly downwind of me. Then walked out to pick it up and find out that it really wasn't. If a person wasn't paying attention they would think their scent-free stuff really worked great. What the air flow is doing out 150yds vs where you are sitting can be different than what you thought.
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Inoculation
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2229
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posted August 22, 2011 01:37 PM
Scent cover is ridiculous. We can't beat a coyote's nose....period. You can "confuse" it for a smidgen, but that's it (misting). If you want to waste money on the crap, be my guest. That's just more money you wasted on shooting a fucking coyote.....To most, it's just not that relevant. If your life "depends" on it, you may have another take on it.
Why is everything made so complicated? This shit isn't rocket science or even 4th grade math. It's a stupid ass dog that reacts by instinct and/or experiences. They are going to smell you no matter what the fuck you soak yourself in, or what you brush your teeth with, or what stupid ass shampoo you use in your hair.
Put yourself in dog territory, set up correctly, play the wind, call accordingly, SHOOT STRAIGHT, and you can kill shit. Add the lighting if you are night calling unless you use NV. It's just not as hard as people make it out to be.
If it's that important, do like 3toes and get the perfumes and shit out of everything. To me, it's just not an issue or worth the effort like Geordie and Randy said. I use Tide, right gaurd deoderant, colgate toothpaste, some fabric softener, and every now and then I take a shit. The coyote that gets down wind smells it all I would guess, good for him! He beat me that day.
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Don't be ridiculous
Posts: 56 | From: CA | Registered: Jan 2008
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted August 22, 2011 05:49 PM
Leonard: "Most likely, a coyote is acquainted with most of them and filters out those that he doesn't process as food or a threat, I think most moderately intelligent people would be skeptical about a product that "eliminates" odor, as some of the room sprays advertise."
I think I may have mentioned this before but I always thought it was a real interesting observation. During a radio telemetry study on urban coyotes, a particular coyote was located and laying down wind of a golf course with golfers walking and driving by all day. When the researcher that processed this particular coyote walked upwind, the coyote immediately sprang to it's feet and started warning barking. That coyote associated one human's odor with danger.
How do you like those apples?
~SH~
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 22, 2011 07:33 PM
I do not find that hard to believe. They associate the popular Foxpro sounds as a threat, so why not the scent of a specific human? By agreement, a coyote's nose is considered superior to that of a coyote's ears. Especially since thousands upon thousands have been suckered by less than studio quality sound.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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