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Author
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Topic: fleshing machines
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RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
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posted March 25, 2008 06:30 PM
I just looked at some fleshing machines and was a little sticker shocked , but hell I figured I wouldnt have any problem plunking the $$ down for a good rifle and scope, so why not invest in a good fleshing implement...
I checked out the Quebec and the Bettcher units... Does anyone know about these and would have any suggestion what would be best? and or do you guys know of any other brands...
Posts: 241 | From: SE IDAHO | Registered: Jan 2006
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 25, 2008 06:59 PM
A necker, two strong arms, and a mind-set that allows repititous work.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 25, 2008 08:56 PM
That would apply to the accuracy handloaders among us, as well, wouldn't it?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 26, 2008 04:16 AM
I've honestly never heard of anyone using a fleshing machine who was just prepping hides for selling, as they're mainly a tool of the taxidermy trade. For the most part, they're used to remove membranes and excess leather thickness from a salt-dried hide that has been fleshed using the old tried and true double handled flesher and a beam. More specifically, the hide is hand fleshed the hard way, salted and dried, then rehydrated and pickled so the leather plumps, then the leather is shaved to a uniform thickness ( or thinness) using the fleshing machine. Yes, they're pricey. You can find anything you wanna know about them by visiting http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/ and using the search function there.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 26, 2008 09:05 AM
Some of the trappers and hound hunters here that put up alot of coon use fleshing machines as well as some of the fur buyers.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 26, 2008 05:01 PM
Tim, Are they using a round knife or a wire wheel flesher?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 26, 2008 05:46 PM
The fur buyer and one other guy i know uses a fleshing machine with knives, I saw one set up in back room but did'nt get a good look at it.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted March 26, 2008 06:46 PM
Lance,
The fur guys use a different one than the Taxidermy guys.
The fur ones put the coon on a big cone and use a knife that slides back and forth.
I had one, but unless you are going to put up more than 20 coons each and every day, or are physically limited, you are better off fleshing them by hand.
I gave up on mine and sold it, I could easily put three or four coons up before you could get the first one finished on the cone.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 26, 2008 07:28 PM
Okay. No biggie. I've just never heard of anyone using one on something as fatty as a green coon hide, but I suppose it would work.
Did it look like this?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 26, 2008 09:21 PM
No Lance it did'nt look like that. From what i was told the fleshing machine works best with the coon, but you have to leave as much fat on the hide when you skin them. My fur buyer and a few others prefer it if the coon are brought in unskinned, they are not looking to rip anyone off, its just they like to skin them them selves and that way insures that the machine will work properly..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
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posted March 26, 2008 09:31 PM
yes I found that one the Dakota a little later last night for a more reasonable price the blade and guard is of the same principle as the Quebec outfit, however I should mention that they can be used to flesh coyotes atleast thats what I read on the Quebec.
It said something to the effect that the hides will take tanning better when the hides are fleshed with it due to its efficiency, also to do a deer hide would take 30 minutes and once your good with it 15 minutes. Hell if you can do it that fast with a deer hide a coyote will be a breeze....famous last words...I dont know.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 27, 2008 04:29 AM
Rabbit,
The concept with the Quebec or Dakota is that the skin is plumped by the pickling then the thickness is shaved using the machine until you have the leather just beneath the bases of the hair roots. At this point, theoretically and assuming you know what you're doing, the leather is of uniform thickness all over - an important consideration for taxidermy. Not as important for just general tanning. (Once uniform thickness, the hide will dry evenly and not lead to pulling and drumming as it dries and adheres to the form.)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted March 28, 2008 06:31 AM
That one from Dakota will work, but you will find that you, your room,walls,ceilings etc will be cover, and I do mean covered with coon fat. Fat will fly EVERYWHERE.
I got a friend in Indiana that has one and uses his for Taxi work, and tried to do a fresh coon. What a mess! Even a mini Flesher throws fat all over, just not as far is all.
Waste of time and money.
Buy a good knife like the necker or better yet a good English knife.
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
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RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
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posted March 28, 2008 10:00 AM
Cdog,
I here what your saying bout how and why taxidermist does hides. Im not trying to negate your knowledge here and Im not trying to get you or anyone to tell me what I want to here, if theres anyone I can count on to find informattion It be you, but you must understand I put forth a galliant effort to hunt coyotes, but I found that trying to do these hides by means of traditional method minus my squaw to knaw on my hide ha ha! to be very time consumming. I may be a bit lazy, but really time is of the essence....
I looked at the picks of the Quebec unit I didnt run the short video tailors since Im on dial up, but the pics showed a very nice even peel, or strip of flesh comming off not of verying degrees, but of uniform thickness. I know the guy has probably been doing it since god was a child it looked very surgical to me...
I just thought that there is got to be an easier way to do this fleshing chore...Besides my maiden will not tolerate me away from my manly duties.
Steave,
Flesh flying all over the room? good golly mrs molly! Im sure who ever is doing that is feeding the hide into a blender without the lid, but on the other hand ive not done coons and dont plan on it. Im sorry did I menttion Im doing coyotes.
Ive got good knives Alaskan, Henlkle a good beam, pins an oil quad stone sharpener and a steel and Im still taking a good while to get a hide done.
I still consider myself new at this to an extent, can anyone tell me what Im doing wrong, how much flesh has to come off to satisfy the tannery I know Im down to the skin, but its very tedious... Im doing the face i.e., lips, ears, eyes around the nose with the intent to keep the black on the face and the wiskers intact as I want a tannned hide with the fake eyes in them an idea ive been pondering for a while. I guess you can say I want it both tanned and taxidemied...
I appriciate your replies..Red
[ March 28, 2008, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 28, 2008 11:26 AM
You're asking a lot of any hide to be able to achieve that level of pliability in a tanned face, IMO. When prepping hides for my tannery, I simply peel, knock off the big chunks and salt X2, then let dry hard as cardboard. I really don't do anything to the face. When the cape is returned to my shop, it is tanned, but shrunken somewhat from its natural state. And, the face is shrunken and all shriveled. They've done some autofleshing there, but not to the extent that they do the remainder of the hide/ cape. In order to do what you want to do, you'd have to come up with some way to set the eyes, as in a rugshell form, but without the rugshell form. I have a guy locally that has begged and pleaded with me for the very same type mount. And he's asked a half-dozen other taxidermists for the same job and, as yet, has found no one willing to take him up on it because the results just won't be what they think he's thinking of. And, having said that, regardless of whether the head is done in a rug or a full shoulder type mount, the process is the same. The taxidermist either receives the hide back still wet (wet tan) or dried, oiled and tumbled to soften (dry tanned). If dry tanned, the hide or cape is immersed in a tub of cold water for 2 hours, then bagged and left to soak in a refrigerator for another 24 hours - a process called sweating - so that the hide will return to its original size and pliability. At this point, the face is as flexible as it was the moment it was peeled off the coyote.
Most guys that do highly detailed fleshing around the face of hides do it over a small bean using a single-edged razor blade held at a right angle to the surface and scraping very carefully. It's very time consuming, very labor intensive, and it takes experience and practice to recognize and avoid damaging the whisker follicles. In worst cases scenarios, the whiskers are simply removed, then reattached on the final amount in their original order.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted March 28, 2008 02:40 PM
Seems a waste to me for just a few coyotes, I can flesh a coyote on a beam in about 10 minutes good enough for tannery stuff. I guess if you were going to do hundreds of coyotes a year it might be worth while, but I doubt it. I did my lion for tanning for taxidermy (lips, ears, feet, ect.) and that took about 4 hours. But that was for a full body mount.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 28, 2008 03:19 PM
Yep, Cal, turning those ears and lips, skinning out the nose pad, and prepping those feet is where I earn my money. I absolutely hate that part of the process.
Red,
One thing I wanted to include is that once the hide is back to me, I do alot of my final face prep using a scalpel and a dremel tool with either a rotary brush or these little things that look like rotary brillo pads. With a full face shield and apron on, those bad boys will strip the tanned membranes from above and below the eye holes, and the leftovers in the nose in no time, and they do it while being very gentle on whisker roots.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
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posted March 29, 2008 11:07 AM
Thanks, guys this definatly clears some fog, or atleast it confirms my trouble. Those faces can be a nightmare of time especially when you get down to the folicle.
It crossed my mind that when it gets to the tannery and they run it over the auto flesher it will probably pull em out anyway.... what should I do just take them out and save them?
Im undecided if the fleshing maching would be a good tool. I hate to buy something that If it doesnt do what I imagined it would do then Im stuck with it, Im sure if it works like a charm for the amount of hides I do It may not be justified, even if Im thinking long term.
I called Moyles up awhile back and the lady I talked to seemed to be a little harsh. She said " all the fat and all the membrane would have to be removed", so I being anal about it assumed it to be every bit removed...Im beside myself I catch myself leaning toward taxidermy maybe in the future.
Oh and thanks Cdog I'll give those rotary pads a try
[ March 29, 2008, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
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RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
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posted March 30, 2008 03:00 PM
I checked out the Bettcher unit its called the Whizard Trimmer Series II From what I read on the taxidermy.net its will shave down to paper thin around the lips, eyes, etc. and do fleshing work over a standard beam. It was originally new technology for the meat processing industry and they've incorperated it into the taxidermy industry.
I read the treads there and the price is a WHOPPING $1700 BONES!!! It is everything I was looking for but they can shove that up their YEAH!! for that price. They obviously didnt do any market research...
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 30, 2008 03:45 PM
Two or three things to say to that, Red. First, pretty much every tool used by taxidermist is a refurbished knock off of something some other industry has been using for years. The mini fleshers you can find for under $350 are just a small handheld pneumatic cutoff tool which has been retrofitted with a fleshing style blade and the appropriate guards. My tool bench and wall board are covered with special little doodads that I have fashioned to fit my needs and I have a source in a dentist's office that sends me used dental tools all the time. Very handy.
Second, I agree. $1700 is a helluva price for a lay person to lay down for a tool that will be used only as much as you'll be using it. Poor market analysis aside, that tool isn't being offered to lay people. It's designed and marketed to taxidermists who do commercial work, who profit from their vocation, who treat that vocation as a business venture, and who are more than happy to depreciate that price out over the span of several years on their taxes. To me, that's not a bad price - if I did my own tanning. But, I don't.
Under my business structure, I feel that the time I would spend doing tanning-related tasks could be better spent doing things like actually mounting deer or other gameheads. If I did do my own tanning, I'd have much more than that invested in autotanners, autofleshers, chemicals, 24-7 heating and cooling for my shop since the process is temperature dependent, and the like. In my opinion, the prices I'm charged for tanning are very reasonable when compared to the amount of labor it takes to do that job. For ten or twenty capes, it's cost prohibitive for me to make that kind of investment. But, for a tannery that does 4,000+ hides each year and that deals in volume, they can charge much less. That's the route I go.
To prepare your hides, do this:
Peel and flesh all fat off over a beam. Knock off big chunks of muscle (anything larger that 1/2-inch across) and as much of the membranes as you can. The hide does not have to be perfectly clean. Lay it on an inclined piece of plywood after coating well with fine grade livestock salt and let it drain for 24 hours. (You should see fluid coming out within 20 minutes, easily.)
The next day, shake off the now wet salt and brush the wet salt off the plywood, then recoat your hide in fresh salt before laying it back on the plywood. At this point, I literally bury the hide in salt, then leave it alone for about a week (on deer and elk sized animals, less on smaller critters). At this point, the hide will have lost a LOT of water and will have shrunk up, but still be wet. Shake off the salt but leave that which clings to it alone, and drape it over a bar (I put 2X2's between two ladders) so air will circulate around the hide. It will quickly begin to dry out and get crusty looking. Before it gets too hard to fold, roll it up and place it in a milk crate loosely folded so air gets all around it and let it dry hard as a rock (may take a couple weeks). Then send it to the tannery.
Few, if any, will flesh the face the way you want it done without chaging extra for the labor, and assuming no responsibility for the outcome. Again, the hide is plenty thin enough to do taxidermy work with there without fleshng, but it must be properly rehydrated. Thus, the whiskers will not be disturbed or damaged.
I use three different tanneries, and am very happy with all of them. For deer capes (taxidermy) I use K&K Tannery in Michigan. For steer hides, deer hides (non-taxidermy) and elk hides, I use Lone Star Fur and Wool in North Carolina. And, for small mammals that customers just want tanned, I use USA Foxx (very reasonable and good to work with). All three can be found online and have web sites.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
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posted March 31, 2008 06:57 PM
Tanks for the extensive reply Cdog, geez makes me wonder how people got informattion 20+ yers ago. Im sure ppl were lost on the subject and just gave up...
A couple of years ago Krusty wrote his method in detail and I printed it out and filed it away I know I still have it somewhere your method sounds very simular.
I havent given up on the idea of a fleshing machine, but I was a bit discouraged, I sharpened up my two Alaskan knives over the quad stones with fresh oil and then ran them both over the steel, went back outside to tackle the other two coyotes hides did I care to mention that sharpening works. I guess I was a little over confident in those knifes, as they hold an edge forever, but still need to be worked over once in a while. I did it with one knife in half the time than it took me to do one a few days ago with three....As a matter of fact the worst one had a one piece patch of flesh that wrapped all the way around the mid section I took it off all in one piece without leaving a knife mark the rest came pretty easy, since I wasnt burned out.
I may get and a fleshing machine sometime in the future, but by then I may be a pro at fleshing with a knife...I appreciate your input here Cdog...Thanks again. The dogs are in the shed on salt right now. I'll give them another day because of the ambient moisture, since were getting some more snow at the moment...
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