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Author
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Topic: WTB - High-quality sounds
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted November 03, 2005 01:16 PM
Wouldn't it be great if someone with a large selection of recorded predator and prey distress sounds offered them for sale to the consumer?
No one currently offers high-sampling rate high-bit rate digital sounds... not without packaging them in some "lossy" format or packaging them with some low-fidelity player. Why not?
No MP3's or WMA's or analog audio. No low-fidelity stuff. It's mathematically impossible to accurately reproduce a screaming rabbit with any of the current crop of commercially available electronic callers or the sounds you see for sale.
I'd love to buy some uncompressed waves, 41KHz or 48KHz sampling rates and 16-bit mono that could take full advantage of modern electronics and the caller on the truck. My ears may not be very good, but every coyote is an audiophile.
Actually, in an ideal world, I'd like to have a system that plays prey distress from 17KHz to 40KHz, sounds that humans can't hear, like an ultrasonic whistle that drives dogs wild. Oh what fun that would be! But if the hunter can't hear it, would he buy it? I doubt it. Beam me up, Scotty.
[ November 03, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Bill
Knows what it's all about
Member # 49
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posted November 03, 2005 04:25 PM
No. It's my belief that the quality of the sound is much less importnat than being in the right place to call. I'm probalby one of the poorest callers I know but I still call coyote with enough frequencey that I keep doing it. The ability to place the electornic call away from my location has more value than sound quality. Coyotes respond to both good and bad sounding calls but I'm not convinced they would respond more frequently to a better quality of sound reproduction.
Bill
Posts: 55 | From: Tucson | Registered: Jan 2003
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LionHo
Knows what it's all about
Member # 233
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posted November 03, 2005 06:12 PM
Hold onto your hats boys, sounds like someone's trying to convince us to trade a perfectly good milk cow for some new magic bean! (Is that you, Bill Martz? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
"It's mathematically impossible to accurately reproduce a screaming rabbit with any of the current crop of commercially available electronic callers or the sounds you see for sale."
Huh?
I've personally ripped numerous 320 Kbps 48bit MP3s (using LAME/Goldwave) using a decent quality laptop sound card, but nothing particularly special or expensive, and have preserved frequencies to 24kHz. Sonogrammed, my MP3s show nice rippling 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th order harmonics. I've had bobcats and fox stick their nose in the speaker trying to get at the mice...
But rabbits require nothing so high-pitched. I've yet to see an actual rabbit cry anywhere near 20kHz. They're much, much lower on the audio frequency scale--so much lower, they don't even exceed the limits of cassette tape. You might even get a reasonably accurate rabbit playback on a horn speaker that hits only 15kHz.
LionHo
[ November 03, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: LionHo ]
Posts: 88 | From: Ventana Wilderness, CA | Registered: Aug 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted November 03, 2005 06:34 PM
Bill, I can't agree more. All this modern day sound technology don't mean much to a coyote. It is a great selling point for all the hi-tech sales people who are trying to sell you something.
It's my contention that coyotes don't care much about hi- fidelity, stereo or any fancy sound system. If it sounds like an easy meal, that's good enough...Unless they are back east coyotes ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .
Location has always been the big secert in predator calling, not the sound system.
Anybody that's ever won a big contest was in the right place calling coyotes. I'd be welling to bet all kinds of e-callers and hand calls have been used winning contest. This time it's just not my opinion, it's fact.
[ November 03, 2005, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted November 03, 2005 07:02 PM
I called a red fox once using a blade of grass.(Of course it was studio quality grass) I bet my date I could make a fox appear just by blowing on some grass. She fell for it so I upped the anty, lol. We quietly got out of the car, and spread a blanket on the ground. First I blew, then it was her turn. One of the better bets I collected on in my youth.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted November 03, 2005 07:07 PM
Onecoyote,
I totally agree with you buddy.I only use my 10 dollar open reed calls at all my stands.And the coyotes don't seem to mind the cheap stuff.I also agree that location is key to success,along with persistance.GOOD HUNTING Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 03, 2005 07:22 PM
I agree with all of you. Each ingredient in the mix is of importance, including quality of sound.
I have a question for all of you.
Dr. Theberge and his wife have conducted research on wolves for decades. His wife has become adept at voice howling over the years and the wolves always answer her. When they broadcast recordings of her howling the wolves never answer. Any thoughts from you guys?
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted November 03, 2005 07:44 PM
NASA,
You just reminded me of what us & the neighbor kids use to do. Back in the early 60's. We'd take a green Maple leaf or a small green oval leaf off of a bush.
Put it between our tongue & soft palate. To make shrill whistle noise's. One kid could make similiar noise's with a leaf between the palm's of his hands.
[ November 03, 2005, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted November 03, 2005 08:16 PM
Rich,I'm guessing it had something to do with the surroundings where her howling was recorded.
I know sound can be different in different surroundings...I think,most of us has called in areas where the sound seemed like a dead thud,so to speak,and in other locations the sound would be loud and clear...I know on a lot of videos the sound never sounds the same as it would have,had you been there.
I have no idea where sounds are recorded for e-callers,but it must be done in a quiet controlled enviroment?
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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LionHo
Knows what it's all about
Member # 233
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posted November 03, 2005 09:08 PM
Be interesting to know what equipment they used for the lady's howl recordings, can you shed any light on this, Rich?
I gave up cassette tapes in the late 80's or early 90's when I started handcalling and lipsqueaking noticeably more critters, and calling them closer.
Curious of anyone else noticed in the news yesterday-- a scientific paper just published stating that mice serenade each other with love songs at ultrasonic frequencies? (Think I might have mentioned it here last Fall how nearby Hastings *********** Field Station/UC Berkeley was using an array of bat microphones to listen to mice doing this at 30kHz...but they weren't the ones publish this yesterday. )
Barring some predator-hearing study that confirms otherwise, I have a hunch that mice have evolved to do this serenading beyond Coyote, Wolf, and Owl hearing. Haven't heard of it, but if there's ever been any research into the audio range of various land-based predators, that'd sure make for an interesting read. Anyone?
Hey, but what's to stop any of us from dropping $50K on the 30-100kHz high-end analog equipment orca, mouse and bat researchers use for these sorts of studies? I'll offer that I'm just your guy, should any of you want to wanna step up to the plate with the deep pockets to compete with university funding for this sort of plucky enterprise ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Back down to earth, the 20 kHz+ audio frequency limits of what common mass produced ('cheap'consumer grade) portable players are already capable of, seem adequate for reproducing coaxer noises like mice, or a significant enough portion of their sounds to call predators, IMO. (Bobcat no care whether rodent sing like Pavarotti).
From a marketing standpoint, maybe the CD standard of 20-Hz to 20kHz isn't quite the hook or ne plus ultra for predator calling that it once was touted to be. For practical predator calling purposes, MP3 compression losses are a non-issue. Relatively easy to make a recording that has a 24kHz component to it, using either 48-kHz sampling MP3 or 48-(or even 96 kHz) sampling .wav formats, at least if you can find a sound so high pitched. To notice any improvement though over a run of the mill 20kHz CD, you'd also need to find the other field hardware components to play it back.
At some point (what point? can anyone yet tell me what frequencies bobcat hearing stops at?) you step into that area of diminishing returns for what is (and probably always will always remain) a rather esoteric part of the frequency spectrum. There's simply no mass market for such equipment that goes beyond the range of human hearing.
Considering that I've had bobcats and fox stick their nose in my remote speaker trying to get at the recorded mice, I'm not losing too much more sleep over the 20kHz bottleneck of my speaker, amp, and wireless mic link. At some point you let your quarry's feedback loop tell you whether it's "good 'nuf".
LionHo
[ November 20, 2005, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: LionHo ]
Posts: 88 | From: Ventana Wilderness, CA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 03, 2005 10:02 PM
Lionho, someone once told me that coyotes eyes had evolved to detect movement in low light and their ears had evoved to detect mouse squeeks. Major Boddiker said that coyotes are most attracted to distress sounds that rise in frequency until we are unable to hear it. I know that that is the most effective coaxing that I use.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 04, 2005 06:56 AM
Melvin, you asked:
"I have no idea where sounds are recorded for e-callers,but it must be done in a quiet controlled enviroment?"
I recorded the most popular and I'm pretty sure most productive sound in Foxpro's library. I used a prosumer grade video camera microphone and recorded it on Mini DV tape at 48Khz, 16 bit settings. The environment WAS quiet, if not controlled... The recording was made standing on 10" of fresh snow with large fluffy snowflakes falling all around.
Turns out, that although we didn't notice it at the time, a pair of coyotes actually came in while the recording was being made. We made the recording before daylight. Afterwards, we sat in the truck waiting for the snow to let up to get out and blast some jacks. Sitting there, my partner noticed a pair of coyotes laying up on a ridge about 600 yards away. Later, we walked over and backtracked them in the fresh snow. They had been over within 200 yards of where we had been standing while recording our jackrabbit.
The sound has turned out to be extremely productive. Definitely, the most productive I've ever used. I've called in lots of coyotes and a few incidental bobcat and fox with it. I have a friend who used to make a substantial portion of his income by recording and selling predator calling sounds. He eventually sold out to JS and many of his sounds are still very popular under the JS label. This guy says my Utah Jack sound is by far the most productive he has ever used too.
I do NOT believe that it is particularly the equipment or recording conditions that make this sound work so well. I think it's the emotion and desperate struggle that this particular jackrabbit projected that makes it work so well. I think coyotes hear it and think "man, that sounds like FUN!". I think the emotions projected by that rabbit get coyotes excited, whether they are hungry or not, and that's why the sound works so well.
It might well work even better with higher grade playback equipment. Who knows? But I do know it dang sure works real well on my Foxpro!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted November 04, 2005 09:37 AM
It wasn't lost on me that no one said, "You can buy high-fidelity sounds at Wal-Mart (or anywhere else)." Maybe I missed a catalog page somewhere.
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted November 04, 2005 11:36 AM
DAA..I can't find the jackrabbit distress,labeled-"Utah jack" on the sounds list.
Is it the one labeled,jackrabbit distress?...I was checking Foxpro's sound list over at,APC
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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LionHo
Knows what it's all about
Member # 233
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posted November 04, 2005 11:46 AM
Personally, I'd like nothing more than if certain of my favorite sounds had been recorded digitally and cleanly, with 320kbps bit rate at 48kHz, originally.
Not presently a favorite, but there's a new Burnham Bros. ML-in-heat-tape (CC#29) a foot away in a cassette recorder frome where I'm typing, that I was digitizing into the PC the other day but couldn't do much of anything with in my sound editor, to get rid of the BG noise and tape hum... rather useless low fidelity original.
But if it were a well-recorded clean tape? No problemo.
Posts: 88 | From: Ventana Wilderness, CA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Joel Hughes
SPECIAL GUEST
Member # 384
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posted November 04, 2005 12:52 PM
Melvin, I'm pretty sure DAA's jackrabbit distress is sound #233. That is my #1 go-to sound, too. I have heard people refer to it as the "Utah Jack".
Posts: 145 | From: texas | Registered: Aug 2004
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted November 04, 2005 05:13 PM
Sound quality is nice, although in my opinion, a far second to location. Some time ago, I assembled an e-caller from Radio Shack components. While the sound it puts out is somewhat less than 'studio quality' that caller has accounted for a pile of coyotes, some bobcats, and a couple of deer.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted November 04, 2005 05:13 PM
DAA,
Is there a distinct diff, such as more rise and fall, quiver, raspy low to raspy high, etc. with the Utah Jack. Don't have access to the sequence. thanks
Rich,
Maybe with the wolves and the lady, the lady gives a lower tone either at the start of the breath out or end that was not picked up, with the equipment set to pick the high end?
And maybe I just let loose with some ignorance.
I do think that some of the search for quality of reproduction of sound, gets placed ahead of the Quality of the sound itself. Just because you have a high def. one million h whatever z recorded sound of fart, chances are it won't become your go to sound. Where as that old wore out, drug all over hell and back, meadowlark cassette , which had spots that would skip, scare me the player was eating it, would day in and day out call in an animal. I had a old wooden barrel closed reed mouth call, that would do some kind of awesome quiver if you got the spittle mixture right, and raised the air pressure. It would always raise the hair, and with regularity call in predators. I tore that call down the day it quit and could not get it to quiver like that again. Not for sure why, but did find a tiny rust spot on one side between the reeds, maybe that was it. Anyway, point being, I agree with DAA, in that it was just something about that particular emotion which ***** and closes the deal on the anguish and death being portrayed.
One more instance, Rich Higgins. When he calls, and several out there can attest, he calls so deep from his diaphram that a particular hollow thump can be heard. Kinda similar to the sound that you make when you tighten your stomach just in before your buddy gut shots you half speed. Nearly every stand and as I remember every productive stand I sat with him a pair of doves would swoop through the set just after this. Duties were shared and the doves didn't always fly by on other callers, productive stand or not.
Maybe the spittle and uneven breaths, and exhales with the sounds of the body bring a realism that is lost when somebody isolates and cleans up just the squeal of rabbit.
later pup
[ November 04, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: pup ]
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted November 06, 2005 03:04 PM
Jim, shoot me an email when you get a chance. I'm dave at rmvh dot com.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted November 07, 2005 01:35 PM
Dave,
E-mail is on it's way.
later Jim
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted November 09, 2005 03:00 AM
Pup! I haft to agree! Higgy has a very deep thump sound in his calling, it come from down in his guts. The thing that sticks out is it is full of emotion! Lots of emotion and feeling! To me thats the key.
I do the same thing, Im not as concerd at the exact sound as I am that the call has alot of emotion! I want that predator to be able to feel the death in the call as he comes in. Lots of waver and quiver in the calls, it has to just have that death and dispare sound!
I also put alot of pitch changes in my calling, high and low. Very fast drops and rises in the sounds. I also put out alot of sound I dont want them loosing interest on the way to the call if they haft to travel a long ways to get there.
DAA,
I will haft to say I like your Jack sound on the foxpro! Very good sound, I use it alot!
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted November 09, 2005 08:39 AM
keekee,
I have noticed that a lot of old duck callers grunt into their predator calls. Higgy has called a lot of ducks, geese, owls and trains. He even called up a coyote once I think. Oh man, that ain't right------ Lord I apologize for that, please be with the starving pygmies in Africa--Amen.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 09, 2005 11:45 AM
Cronky, they cleaned out that big ol' artery that carries blood to your brain when they overhauled you this past year. You're sharper than you used to be. Just as ornery, though.
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted November 11, 2005 05:54 PM
I just ordered 3 coyote calling sound cd's by Dennis Kirk and APC.net.... Has anyone else tried out these sounds?
I'm looking for some growly house dogs, if any of you have recorded pet sounds. Angry or scared Barks/Growls from 10-20 pound canines. wave files at least 41.1KHz x 16bit.
Does anyone have any waterfowl distress they can share? Canadas, Snows, or Mallards?
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted November 12, 2005 08:57 AM
Try a bat distress sometime and see how critters respond. You and i cant even hear it, but the coyotes and fox sure do.
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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