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Author
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Topic: sound levels
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 08, 2010 05:13 PM
I've been playing around with the sound meter I picked up today and found out a few interesting things about hand calls open reed and closed reed. I placed the meter 14 ft. away from me in the house then i blew on a few calls with open and close and semi open reeds..
Red-desert howler gave a high reading of 98.2 avr.
Custom yote buster howler; 98.4-98.5
Custom close reed small barrel; Rabbit 96.1
bird/peeps/ flutter tongue 96.0
black custom closed reed med. barrel; Rabbit 96.2 with bird sounds at 96-97.0
Scerry bite reed 97.0
small custom deer antler open reed; Howls 98.1
Wiley-one she howler; 98.2
voice howls; Wife-85-86
Me- 97.2-98.0
Will test same calls outside at a farther distance later on to see if there is any difference.
As for loudness I would say most of the calls I tested are pretty close to being the same, with some being store bought and some custom.. More later..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 08, 2010 07:55 PM
I went out before dark and tested the caller for sound dB from 50 yds to 300 yds.first test is straight in line with the direction of the caller.
50 yds; mouse 86.0 dB
rabbit 88.0
coyote howls 90
100 yds; mouse 75
rabbit 75
howls 84
200 yds; mouse 71
rabbit 71
Howls 75
300 yds; mouse 60
rabbit 66
Howls 72
sound meter at the 10:00 position from caller.
300 yds mouse 70
rabbit 70.6
Howls 72.5
Meter at 9:00 from caller
300 yds: mouse 70
rabbit 70.3
Howls 73.0
Meter behind caller at 6:00
100 yds; mouse 70.6
rabbit 70.8
Howls 72.0
There is a difference on how loud the sound is depending on where you are standing from the caller and I had the wife record just the highest recording of the sound and should be avr. out for a more accurate reading with varis sounds and farther out from the caller.. I will do this when I have more time..
But you will notice that the sound is the loudest at the center...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted June 08, 2010 09:26 PM
Andy dude,
This one's for you! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
C'mon guys, I know you're all thinkin' it.
So frickin' what? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Tim,
The fact that you call a specific scientific instrument a "sound meter" shows, once more, how little you understand about sound.
98. 4 what?
Do you realize that the refractive qualities of the interior walls of your house negate these results?
*There's a reason sound labs are made with sound cancelling materials on the walls, that's about resonance.
And do you realize that if you change surroundings and distance in a single swoop the comparision you make (which is basically worthless without a thesis, anyways) is also flawed?
All of the elements of your supposed testing are called variables, and these variables must be isolated, and altered, methodically.
That's how science works. And you sir, are no scientist! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I imagine you've gotten your hands on one of Sly's favorite lil toys, the Decibel(A) meter...
And here's an interesting quote to show the validity of such meters;
"Measurements in db(A) are widespread and convenient but you must remember that they are a compromise and tell us nothing about the frequency content of a noise. The ear can tell a difference between a washing machine and a telephone buzzer because their sounds have a very different structure. But such different sounds may give identical readings in dB(A)."
In reality wavelength, frequency, and velocity need to be taken into account, and without a mathmatical keyboard I can't show you the equations used to do so.
But, it's an equation in multiple variables, and is the same reason Sly's testing fell short, as it was, and as best I could get out of him, in only two variables (frequency in hertz, and volume in decibels).
There are at least five different ways sound is measured, in Decibels, sone, mel, phon, and hertz... until you apply all five to your theories, they fall short of complete or viable.
Krusty 
P.S. Had to walk away from my post for a bit... the fact that few of your numbers for distance from caller, stayed the same as you revolved around it, negate the results... don't change two variables at once!!! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Tenths of db(a) don't mean shit!
Your results actually prove my theory, that direction from which measurments were taken show little or no change to dispersal patterns of sound.
[ June 08, 2010, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 08, 2010 10:00 PM
quote:
Do you realize that the refractive qualities of the interior walls of your house negate these results?
Yes but if the test is being done the same for each call you still have the same results or a pretty good idea of how loud each call is compared to another type or design.
Also if you take a reeded call and use mid range of the reed you will get the loudest sound the call can produce. If you move youre mouth up on the call you get less volume and if you move out to the end of the reed it willbe louder than than if in all the way but not as loud as mid reed. This was done on more than one open reeded call and the same results where noted..
So this tells me if I want to get the most volume from a open reed call mid range on the reed would be best..
I'm not trying to measure freq. but sound and how far and how loud it is. The meter picks up all freq.'s just don't tell you what they are. Like I mentioned in the other post what I need to do is avr out the readings I get for each sound and compare to another call or caller or sound they produce.. what the results will tell is what call or sounds are getting out there to the coyote and what sounds are not..
So far my tests have been only to 300 yards which is nothing but from what I've seen so far is the sounds are weaker to the back and side of the caller and the farther I get out there the bigger the difference will be..
Like I said the meter picks up all freq or most and also shows the bottom end and when you watch the meter it will show a area of sound that is constent (stays the same) for a period of time, these are the numbers I'm looking for..
Rabbit screams for example the dB reading stays pretty close to the same or very small variation, a Howl on a open reed call depending on who is blowing on the howler at the time or which type you are useing will show a large fluxuation of sound if done right, some howlers don't do that. (reed locking up)...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted June 08, 2010 11:11 PM
Howls...
300 yards from meter.
At 0° (straight in front of the meter, also known as +Y), 72db(A).
At 300° (10 o'clock, which I won't bother to list as a linear equation), 72.5db(A).
At 270° (9 o'clock, aka -X), 73db(A).
These numbers not only show that sound dispersal is relatively unchanged, but that indeed it went up as you got around to the side.
Your theory, or your test, is flawed.
You blew it, by changing two variables on the final portion, to 100 yards on the 180° position. So that result has to be thrown out.
And like Sly you don't have a uniform test bed "driving" the calls, you as a machine, aren't calibrated well enough to trust the results you produce.
The whole testing process you illustrate here is counter to what you originally theorized... you need to revolve around the SPEAKER of your caller, with the METER, at a singular exact distance for each position, and you need these positions to be equidistant around the compass (clock), and use the exact same volume settings and battery charge levels. And since you are limited to the X and Z axes, you need to have the speaker placed so that it broadcasts horizontally.
Do the test right, or STFU!
Admitting that your parameters are unreliable doesn't lend credence to your claim that you're correct. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
*But you are one up on ol' Sly, at least you'll admit your testing parameters are flawed, if not your whole theory. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Krusty
P.S. If you do want to continue with hand calls, take multiple readings (10 or more) from each position, throw out the largest and smallest readings from each positon, and figure an average of those that remain.
Then you have to remember what Mark Twain said, "There's lies, there's damn lies, and then there's statistics."
Edit to fix X & Y coordinates.
[ June 08, 2010, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 09, 2010 06:51 AM
quote:
These numbers not only show that sound dispersal is relatively unchanged, but that indeed it went up as you got around to the side.
The plan was to use the sports field to do the testing just for starters but it was in use so I had to go use a gravel road that is hardy traveled on so I could'nt do a 360 degree test like I wanted.
Instead I just positioned the meter at 300 yds and rotated the caller to simulate this. Like you said there was a increase in sound at the 9:00 position and this may be due to the wind blowing from the N-W.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 09, 2010 07:28 AM
TA, what Krusty is pointing out is that your 'tests' are not scientifically sound. You've got too many variables to account for and little/no controls. Therefore, your results are flawed/skewed from the get go & can't be accurately representative as proof of your hypothesis...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 09, 2010 08:10 AM
I'm not really trying to prove anything just showing what or how loud a certain sounds are and how it carries on a normal calling day in the field. The tests I did above was just a start and when I do it again it it will be in more detail.
Later on I may set the caller up behind some bushes or a couple of tree's and see if there is any difference and if so how much...
Just for fun I tested the sound of my two ATV's to see which is louder. My Kaw. is louder in the drivers seat compared to my Polaris. But when I test the machines as they drive by the Polaris is louder than the Kaw.. So now I know when I take one of them with me hunting i will use the Kaw.
Anyway this is mostly done for something to do on rain days so there is no reason to get bent out of shape about it...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted June 09, 2010 10:10 AM
Tim,
I'm not bent out of shape.
I just get tired of ideas being turned into evidence without merit.
Sly and I have gone through all this "science of sound" stuff three or four times now, and every time I've learned something more about it.
When you can show us absolute results, born of solid science, and based on logical theory, I'll be the first to applaud your efforts.
Until then, if you're spewing B.S. somebody, more than likely to be me, just might call you on it.
Go ahead dude, have fun with that db(A) meter, like the toy you are using it as. Just don't call your games science, or your ideas knowledge.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 09, 2010 12:28 PM
Can somebody tell me what is the point of all this? Thank you. ElBee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 09, 2010 12:38 PM
Krusty;
I gotta admit, I'm a little bit confused here. Are you saying that (generaly, no wind, flat terrain, etc.) if I point my old FoxPro toward the horizon to the south, that it would be just as loud behind it, to the north??? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) I could understand that the sound level would be the same all around if I pointed it straight up, but it does seem to me that it should be louder in front of the speaker.
Actually, that should be fairly easy to check with a db meter. Lonely dirt road, calm day (or night) 4 wheeler, point the call down the road, check sound levels to distance until it drops off & check the mileage. Repete going the other way, remembering to shut the 4 wheeler's engine off each time the sound level is checked. Conducting the test in several different locations should show some kind of pattern that we can ponder over.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 09, 2010 12:42 PM
El Bee; The point is that it's the off season & we're bored. This is serious stuff.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 09, 2010 12:43 PM
My guess? Summer Boredom.
Forget all the technical Bullshit.
Blow call,or turn on call,wait for approaching Predator to present a shot,Shoot Predator.
Move to next stand repeat process several times during the day,go home....
Good Hunting Chad
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 09, 2010 12:56 PM
That's GOLD, Chad! We need to render a marble monument with those words, captured for eternity. How do you keep coming up with these pearls of wisdom, Amigo mio?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted June 09, 2010 01:58 PM
Leonard,
I'm just sick of Tim, and his "superior intellect".
Just like when Sly started talking down to Rich, when Tim started talking down to you, I'd had enough.
I'm not bored, I'm fed up.
Kokopelli,
No I am not saying the amplitude or volume is the same in front of and behind the speaker. Tim used the analogy of a flashlight to strengthen his theory of why he waves his speaker around, and furthered that anaology by comparing a DK speaker to a floodlight, and a WT speaker to a spotlight.
He makes it out that it's as if there is a "darkness" behind the speaker, in all practicality void of sound... similar to the large parabolas used in Leonard's example of the whisper displays (originally made popular by Bell Labs).
What I'm saying is, that without moving his speaker, Tim could accomplush the same thing most users of e-callers do with the volume knob.
If he wants the sound to reach out farther, turn up the volume (raise the amplitude), and increase the "broadcast power" in all directions at once.
Now granted a speaker has a greatest zone of amplitude, some amount of focus to it's broadcast, but only at 100% volume, and at maximum range of said focal power, would anyone ever have a real purpose for Tim's methods.
Tim has cited the waving of the speaker as "triggering" a response from otherwise non-responsive coyotes... that were a mile away.
Behle once called bullshit on Tim's mile away theory, itself, claiming nobody can see a coyote a mile away.
Anyways I have had my fill of this, and I'm moving on.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 09, 2010 02:04 PM
quote:
as loud behind it, to the north??? I could understand that the sound level would be the same all around if I pointed it straight up, but it does seem to me that it should be louder in front of the speaker.
Actually, that should be fairly easy to check with a db meter. Lonely dirt road, calm day (or night) 4 wheeler, point the call down the road, check sound levels to distance until it drops off & check the mileage. Repete going the other way, remembering to shut the 4 wheeler's engine off each time the sound level is checked. Conducting the test in several different locations should show some kind of pattern that we can ponder over.
Koko; Thats exactly what I'm trying to find out.
say a hunter has to call a area with a slight cross wind due to various reason, I would like to know if the wind affects the sound and by how much and if this can be corrected by just turning the caller more into the wind rather than calling cross wind or if it don't matter at all.
Like you mentioened about Krustys post if the sound is the same all the way around then it should'nt matter which way we have to caller faceing to begin with.
Also if a caller is calling into the wind is the sound level going to be the same behind the caller or greater.. I'm not out to prove anything just curious..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 09, 2010 02:13 PM
quote:
Tim has cited the waving of the speaker as "triggering" a response from otherwise non-responsive coyotes... that were a mile away.
Behle once called bullshit on Tim's mile away theory, itself, claiming nobody can see a coyote a mile away.
You can't with the naked eye but you can with a pair of Bino.'s, Just ask some of the other members that call in wide open areas or along frozen rivers..
[ June 09, 2010, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 09, 2010 02:28 PM
Krusty,
But what does it really matter? Do you think you are going to change Tim's or Sly's mind?
I saw that when we had that train wreck with Sly and that bullshit estrus chirp sound.He was convinced...Even though he couldn't prove shit.
Calling is a Simple game,no use in over complicating it....
Good Hunting Chad
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted June 09, 2010 02:40 PM
Okay one last post...
Tim,
The math is complicated, but as I alread stated, unless the wind speed is a significant portion of the speed of sound, there will be no significant change in the way the sound is broadcast.
Thousands of callers, using unmoving remote speakers have proved that coyotes can be drawn in from all points of the compass, regardless of where the speaker is pointed.
But generally since there is a zone of greatest amplitude, we tend to point the speaker where we believe those we intend to call are (and most leave it pointed there).
Chad,
Nope I won't change either of their minds, anytime soon, and for today I'm though trying.
"A closed mind, cannot learn" Bruce Lee.
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 09, 2010 03:23 PM
ElBee,
This ones for you,I did forget a very important Technical item for night calling.
A SPOTLIGHT......
Good Hunting Chad
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 09, 2010 03:59 PM
UTcaller;
Well.....yeah, during fur season, that's the logical way to do things. With summer boredom, though, we can be excused for pontificating & being pampas regarding all subjects large and small.
Of course with the recent state of the fur market, it's no big woopie whether or not I kill a bunch of $5.00 coyotes. If the market stays down this fall, I may try some things that I normaly wouldn't do, just to see what happens.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 09, 2010 04:11 PM
Keep up the good work TA and remember if ol Ben Franklin would've listened to the nay sayers, he wouldn't have gotten electrocuted.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 09, 2010 04:12 PM
Koko,
Good Point.
Where's WileyE and Sly when you need em....lol
I guess whatever get's you to fur season huh.... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good Hunting Chad
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 09, 2010 05:01 PM
quote:
"A closed mind, cannot learn" Bruce Lee.
Yeah and he blew his brain up from to many drugs...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 10, 2010 10:54 AM
I finished up yesterday on what testing I wanted to do or as far as I needed to take it.
The sound range is'nt exact cause I was'nt going to stake everything out and measure it but I think I'm close enough to get the general picture of how it works...
The sound travel area is pretty close to the shape of a egg if you had it drawn on paper with the bottom of the egg being behind the caller and about half of the bottom removed.. I may get a diagram up a little later to show what i'm talking about..
The testing was done with no wind, a lite breeze and a 5-10 mph wind.. according to the sound meter the loudest of the sound is towards the front of the caller or direction its pointed. I took readings at 12:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, 6:00 and so on. From 12:00 going clockwise or counter closk wise the sound would decrease by about 5% or a little more depending on what sound was used and would continue to decrease as I went. When I reached 3:00 or 9:00 the sound would decrease about 10% or little more from there on, also as I went farther out from the caller the sound would decrease by 10 % at 100 yds and so on. This was done with no wind..
With a lite breeze the sound shifted a little towards the down wind side and both times I tested in the wind i was faceing the west with the caller and getting a N-W by w. wind..
No matter hoow hard the wind was blowing the sound forward of the speaker was still the loudest by 5% or more..
To my left with the 5-10 mph wind (down-wind side) The sound was the same or very close from 9:00 to 6:00.
Basicly whats going on with or with out wind is the sound area is shifting to the downwind side some what and also by useing different sounds the sound area is either shrinking or exspanding ( range increaseing/ decreaseing)
I also tested the back side of the caller with the wind and against the wind. Against the wind I could only get a reading as far as 200 yds and with the wind blowing from the back of caller to the meter I got a stronger readings so i only went another 100 yds farther back which put me at 300 and still got a reading but 10% less than the 200 yd. reading..
Also noted was when takeing a reading from the front of the caller there was anywhere from a 15%-20% reduction in sound with the 5-10 mph wind.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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