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Author
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Topic: Upgrading the e-caller
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browning204
Knows what it's all about
Member # 821
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posted December 20, 2006 06:04 AM
This is a wicked good thread, probably the most information that I have seen ever on the subject.
Here is my question, I hunt alot of the same territory as THO, lots of food sources, thick cover and not a big coyote population. The fight for food probably isn't as big of an issue as other parts of the country.
While on stand, no matter time of year, if I use distress calls of all various types, rabbit cries, bird cries, fawn bleats.
Won't the coyotes (if they are there) hear that distress and possibly think "it's just another dieing critter" because in this area the coyote knows it can hunt and move around on HIS terms because of the abundance of the food are always there?
Now, if I add howls to the mix, again any time of year, although the territory issue may not be as big out here, Won't that just add some "excitement" to the scenerio that I am trying to present?
Now, not only is there a dyeing critter, but another coyote in the area that my target coyote might want to come check out whether it is coming for a look see in an aggressive or non-aggressive way.
Posts: 167 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2006
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted December 20, 2006 06:13 AM
quote:
You can't even always tell what sex a coyote is when it howls.
That would be my contention. It's like trying to picture what a person looks like when your talking on the phone.
Rich, Do you think that some of the "old timers", Austin and pre-Austin, style howlers used or tried all these "new" calling and howling sequences? It would make sense to me that they also, at one time or another, tried just about every imaginable named or unnamed howl before concluding to KISS.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 06:16 AM
"I rarely voice an opinion on howling, there are too many experts around here. But I have a theory that will work for most of you guys and that is that there are only two types of howls that concern us as callers. Aggressive and Non- aggressive. Thats it. Beyond that there is nothing that really concerns callers."
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The only thing that I would like to add to the above quote is this---------Leave the screaming rabbit at home. Use a distress sound that coyotes haven't heard so many times that they can hum the tune from memory.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 06:31 AM
Greenside,
Most folks don't realize that some of these pioneers were trying to make some gas money by selling calls and instruction tapes. We are also talking about information from history. Those old boys may well have thought they had it all down pat, and they just may have thought that they were selling absolute truth. A lot of time has passed since then, and we need to understand the need to take what we read in books and internet posts as a grain of salt. Listed to guys who are out there right now and have paid their dues. Guys who we KNOW are very good at calling coyotes. I will give you two examples. Cal Taylor and Scott (Wiley E) Huber. Rich Higgins is also very good. Mr. Higgins is still wrapped up in the coyote language stuff a bit too much, but he is learning. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 20, 2006 06:42 AM
Al, you will probably be reading this before too long, but it is significant to this thread.
"Over the course of fifteen thousand years, coyotes have evolved a complex and varied social structure, which requires a complex and varied communication system. Dr Phillip Lehner stated that
"the coyotes ability to adapt to a changing environment is ultimately a consequence of it's complex behavior, especially it's manifold communication system."
Even if coyotes do not establish and maintain exclusive territory they still remain very social and vocal animals. They will still assemble on a regular basis and perform their greeting ceremonies, which is important because it aids in strengthing bonds and reaffirming status within the family unit. They will still perform the group yip-howl, which has many functions including the announcement of the presence of a resident pack which aids in spatial distribution, encourages dispersal and even has an effect on reproductive rate.
This is significant to callers that wish to locate with vocalizations.
They will still howl to maintain contact. They will still howl to assemble. They will still howl for the sheer joy of it.
AND they will still be compelled to investigate a strange coyote that vocalizes in their home ranges.
It is important to know that coyote's howls are individually specific, meaning that coyotes recognize the voices of known coyotes, which means that you cannot fool a coyote into believing that you are a "Lost mate" or any other family member. The "lost mate howl", "rally howl", "interrogatory howl' "companion howl", "lonesome howl" are all variations of lone howls and as such have value to us as announcing the presence of a strange coyote that we hope will be investigated by all coyotes within hearing.
Bearing that in mind, what affect do you believe Bill Martz's technique of broadcasting aggressive vocalizations at LOUD volume will have on these social groups?
Bearing all of this in mind, can you begin to see how simple it all becomes?
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted December 20, 2006 06:44 AM
Rich, When you hunted with Wiley do you recall him doing any puppy howls?
Dennis
[ December 20, 2006, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 20, 2006 07:10 AM
Dennis, there are two Richs here and both have hunted with Scott.
Cal, "I rarely voice an opinion on howling, there are too many experts around here."
I disagree with you. I don't believe there are any "experts" here. Some of us are just more confused than others. Besides the subject makes for good discussion which is the purpose of this board.
Before the crap begins again,
DISCLAIMER. I am not an expert. Of all of the biologists researching coyote behavior and vocalizations that I personally know, none of them are experts. Everyone is simply confused on different levels.
And at a certain level one becomes aware that Bill Martz is braindead.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 20, 2006 07:50 AM
Andy L.: Back in the late 70's and early 80's i hunted mostly fox and then the coyotes moved in. Alot of the locals chased after the coyotes and i continued to hunt fox cause they where bringing more money than the coyotes. Through the years the fox numbers started to decrease and the coyotes where on an increase. I started to target the coyotes but was'nt haveing much luck. We would go into and area after the coyotes and when we thought we had them figured out they would disapper on us. So one day when this happened i took a snowmobile and got on the tracks that where comeing out of a section. I followed the tracks for four miles, dureing this time the coyotes that made the tracks did not stop to hunt. They went in a straight path west until they got to the area were they planned to meet other members of the same family. When i got to this area there were five places on a fence line where five coyotes bedded down together. From studying the tracks, one coyote came in from the north and one from the south and two from the east, and one from the west..
From looking at the tracks i could see that the coyotes all went back in the same direction that they came from. The pair of tracks i followed in went back to the east but they took a path a little farther south. From the high vantage point that they were on they proably saw me comeing and dispersed back to there terr.. The pair followed the lay of the land to get around me and get back to where they came from. Anyway i followed the tracks back to where they came from. I took the snowmobile back to town and got ahold of the guys and we went back into the section with the pair of coyotes, they were there this time and we got both of them. After a bit of time i was able to figure out the other three and we were able to get them as well. Someone once said that you can't call tracks, which is true. But if you stop and take the time to figure them out, they will tell you were they have been and where they are going.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5091 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted December 20, 2006 07:59 AM
Rich Higgins:
Regarding the use of aggressive and/or territorial vocalizations.... Those vocalizations will intimidate and repel transients and nomads and ,depending on the location of the broadcasts relative to defended areas, may cause betas to reposition within their areas rather than approach. Those coyotes can comprise as much as 70-80% of the total populations at certain times of the year. Why issue sounds that may elicit an approach from only 10-20% of the population and repel the rest?
Rich, with all due respect, I have killed many many transient coyotes with aggressive vocalizations here in Indiana. I've killed enough in what I consider transient zones that I refuse to believe we could've killed more with passive sounds... if that makes sense?
I use fewer aggressive sounds now than I used too, but in January and February I do not see the negative impact others do. Aggressive sounds may not call EVERY coyote that passive sounds will, but they will call coyotes that passive sounds won't. (not talking age or higherarchy) It's a numbers game, and sometimes that drifting rif-raf male responds better to aggression than passiveness. Especially pre and post rut. In my experience.
A lot of other information in this thread has been skewed by hatred for Bill Martz, to the point it's misleading readers. Nahault has spent over a year ripping off sounds, pilfering units, mending his credit line, crying on internet forums, flaming martz and still has callers jammed packed with WT sounds.... now he says he doesn't like them? They won't call coyotes? Talk about someone incredible and braindead- I don't care if the guy shoots 5000 coyotes a year he either doesn't know coyotes and calls or he's just talking out his ass in attempt to attack Bill.
Like I said 14 days ago, this thread has potential! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted December 20, 2006 08:15 AM
Yeah, its got potential. Slower gettin started than anticipated, but gettin there.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 20, 2006 08:30 AM
Rich H. hit the nail on the head when he stated that coyotes of the same family group can reconize each others voice ( howl). When i use the female invatation i get both male and female coyotes to respond, what this howl does is it trips two of the seven triggers. Which are curiosity and territoral.
When the lost mate call is used i'm trying to trip the curiosity trigger as well. And with the Companion call its territoral and again curiosity.
What i'm trying to do is just give them something different.
from talking to other callers they are haveing good luck with the hurt pup distress at the moument. I think after awhile this sound well become so so in some areas and then the caller will have to look for something else..
I think calling is very simular to trapping if you want to get good numbers you need to mix it up some. There are certain sounds or sets that well produce most of the time, but after awhile you have to give them something different...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5091 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 08:38 AM
"It is important to know that coyote's howls are individually specific, meaning that coyotes recognize the voices of known coyotes, which means that you cannot fool a coyote into believing that you are a "Lost mate" or any other family member. The "lost mate howl", "rally howl", "interrogatory howl' "companion howl", "lonesome howl" are all variations of lone howls and as such have value to us as announcing the presence of a strange coyote that we hope will be investigated by all coyotes within hearing."
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Rich Higgins,
Very well said and is very, very true.
See, I TOLD you guys that Higgins was good.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 08:42 AM
Greenside,
Nope, I didn't hear Scott use any puppy howls but that don't necessarily mean that puppy howls are bad to use, and also doesn't prove that Scott never uses puppy howls once in awhile.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 08:50 AM
"I have killed many many transient coyotes with aggressive vocalizations here in Indiana. I've killed enough in what I consider transient zones that I refuse to believe we could've killed more with passive sounds... if that makes sense?
I use fewer aggressive sounds now than I used too, but in January and February I do not see the negative impact others do. Aggressive sounds may not call EVERY coyote that passive sounds will, but they will call coyotes that passive sounds won't. (not talking age or higherarchy) It's a numbers game, and sometimes that drifting rif-raf male responds better to aggression than passiveness. Especially pre and post rut. In my experience."
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JRB,
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a time and place for agressive coyote talk. From the time that pups are dropped in the spring until mid august or so is one. From now thru february is another. I am scratching my head right now though, and I just have to ask you a question. How can you tell by looking at a coyote that said coyote is in fact a transient?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted December 20, 2006 08:54 AM
Higgins, the expert comment wasn't meant as a flame to anyone, I just personally think alot of callers put too much into defining 17 different howls as it pertains to recreational calling . For someone interested in studying coyote vocalizations the study of it is fine but I think it has little or no bearing on calling. If a guy takes a piece of plastic that makes noise and then proceeds to tell me he can make a different sound for a lost pup, lost mate, female invitation etc. etc. and the coyotes can tell the difference I would be inclined to believe that he has been overfed. The caller may think he can tell the difference, but coyotes, IMHO, just think it has the possibility of being a strange coyote hanging around and they want to see who the new guy or gal is. I will agree that coyote do recognize howls of coyotes that they are familiar with. But back to my theory if you will. There are two types of howls that concern us as callers, aggressive and non-aggressive. They each have a place and time that they work. Agree or disagree?
edit for Rich Cronk.....
I thought you were an expert, the transients have the backpacks of course. I thought everyone knew that!
[ December 20, 2006, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Jrbhunter
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Member # 459
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posted December 20, 2006 09:28 AM
Rich the residency, range, transience and concentration of coyotes is determined by scouting-locating and dead coyotes. Dead coyotes not just by number; but age, frequency and consistancy.
I've been wanting to discuss these specific "Transient Zones" in my area with Higgins privately for some time but cannot find the documentation and research papers that support the theory. I know Higgins has read them as I've seen him cite them elsewhere- about radio collared coyotes and transience in the East... I misplaced them in a move this fall and don't want to get into a deep discussion paraphrasing documented fact.
I'll admit I stay on stand longer than most when I use those vocals... opening the floodgates of "They just wandered in" debate. I believe they are responding (perhaps after reacting negatively?) to the aggressive sounds because the same stand/same length will not produce under passive sound.
My experience in this field of aggressive sounds and transient coyotes is very limited. With only a few years of strong vocals and two years of transient study (and exploitation) to my credit I am still an open book to say the least. I do, however, feel confident there is a very strong key there. Damn near a coveted SILVER BULLET to some degree.
I hunt and discuss hunting with approximately 200 Indiana predator callers thorughout the year... I feel it's safe to say I killed more coyotes in 7 days last year than MOST callers in my state killed all season long. Was it the Wildlife Technologies? Was it a population boom? Exploitation of transience concentration? Scouting- luck- effort? I have my theories... but discussions like this offer up a lot of clues to the puzzle. I'm actually laying low on those areas until I better understand why I'm succesful there, I can't help but think "big picture" sometimes.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 20, 2006 09:37 AM
Cal, I do agree with you, in fact I agree with everything you said in this last post. I do believe that some vcalizations are more effctive than others so I believe that the aggressive and passive catagories can be expounded upon.
BTW, I didn't believe that you where flaming me or anyone else here. My comments were directed toward Bill who should be making a strafing run through here soon.
JRB, Bill generates passion on any board that he posts on. I don't know of but one individual that "hates" Bill. Some are intimidated by him, some are certainly perplexed by him, but most are entertained by him. I always enjoy his participation. BTW, I take no offense when your opinion differs from mine. If you have experienced a different status quo in your area than others have in theirs then it is no great surprise considering that we are talking about "the most vocal of all North American mammals," especially one so "varied and adaptable.
However it will take a great deal of evidence to change my opinion that aggressive howls will repel more coyotes than they attract, regardless of the biological season.
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TheHuntedOne
Knows what it's all about
Member # 623
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posted December 20, 2006 09:43 AM
JRB -
Don't Transient Zones mena that you have coyote populations with defined teritories?
How would your theory work in an area where coyotes may not have defined teritories? And what would you look for to define a Transient Zone? How would one identify it as opposed to anyother patch of wood land?
Al
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The On Line Resource For Custom Call Makers
THO Game Calls
Posts: 266 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted December 20, 2006 09:46 AM
You're almost right about two things Jason, I've kept a few of the Martz puppy whines and the non-aggressive invitation howls on my callers, but I actually paid $33 for each of those, and I certainly don't like Martz. The rest you're just plain wrong about.
I think even you have got to admit that ever since Martz put the bogus thousand-dollar charge on my Visa and then tried to wreck my credit, I've done a decent job deflecting novices toward other brands and blasting his "customer disservice." Just so we're clear Jason, I have a WT with no factory support, the warranty is void, and Bill telling lies he gets Browning to repeat, all because I told him I played Johnny Stewart sounds on my WT.
edit: Back to the title of the thread just for the hell of it, now that the video got it's due reward. Pass the gas can again. Exactly what was upgraded on the new WT? As far as I can tell, the remote range was cut from a mile+ to 500 yards. The new TOA 30 has poorer frequency response than the old 10 or 15. The new lithium battery is external and much harder to keep warm in the winter. And the damn thing won't play any of my Johnny Stewart sounds. My old FRS - SLA - fully programmable WT may be a brick to carry, but it is much better than the new one by a mile+.
For sale or trade - One hundred sound WT caller. Comes with most of the Martz coyote sounds and a whole bunch of distress and aggravation noises from mouse to moose, bear to hare, and cat to rat. Fully programmable/downloadable/uploadable and Windows compatable via removable/upgradable FAT16 formatted Compact Flash memory card. Two quasi-legal DTMF-FRS 1 mile+ midland radio remote transmitters and one receiver. Brand new sealed lead acid 5AH battery w/recharger. 14 watt amp broadcasts 32KHz monoaural wave files, easily edited from any sound source, through a TOA SC115 speaker. It works right now. No warranty, no manufacturer support, no additional sounds available from WT unless you suck up real hard to Bill.
[ December 20, 2006, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 09:58 AM
"I thought you were an expert, the transients have the backpacks of course. I thought everyone knew that!"
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Cal,
Nope, no expert yet. I have already stated in an earlier post that I have yet to achieve full PAKMAN status. Back packs huh? Up until now I thought the coyotes with back packs were just on their way to school. Thanks for the tip. Transients that what they are, transients.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 10:05 AM
Jrbhunter,
You may be on to something there with your transient coyotes theory. Keep us informed of your findings as you continue your efforts in that area. I have to tell you however, the fact that you hunt hard and call more than your fellow hunters is probably a large factor as to why you kill more coyotes than they do.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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browning204
Knows what it's all about
Member # 821
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posted December 20, 2006 10:12 AM
so, all this talk about aggressive and non-aggressive howls is great but next question.
Will coyotes male and female react different to both aggressive and non howls from male and female?
Will a coyote male be more likely to respond to a howl from a male or female and vise versa?
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Jrbhunter
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Member # 459
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posted December 20, 2006 10:29 AM
THO, transience istelf is a very broad topic. It's an absolute fact of life for coyotes but some regions are easier to exploit than others. Some coyotes have to pack those backpacks and hike a goooooood ways, coyotes in other regions may just knock next door and take up shop within a couple mile of their birthplace.
As far as finding those zones, I kinda have the cart before the horse. After we started smacking coyotes repeatedly in areas I got curious... after trapping them extensively and catching 3-4-5 coyotes a day in the same limited acreage I got REAL curious.
I found the coyotes- then related it back to transience and developed two zones within 50 mile of my house. Looking at the topography you see restrictions on long range travel... rivers, hwys, interstates. It isn't blatantly obvious- so I can't just go google earth my state and find more (I TRIED)... but after the evidence I've gathered it does fit in these situations.
Like I said, this isn't tried and true, but it continues to develop. I rarely see male/female pairs in these places... usually a group is 2-5 juvenile males. It's not uncommon to kill adults, sometimes very old dogs there. I've seen every color phase except black (Damn curse) in these places. Packs are rarely heard vocalizing in the core area- only on the fringes of this "highway" and there they are VERY vocal.
In five years I hope to understand more about this situation. This year I'm working on a theory that these transients are like ducks. They are somewhere down 'the line' right now staged up, hunting the place out, and when food vanishes or things freeze up they're gonna slide this direction. Could warm weather, bumper crops or increased pressure change the urgency of that movement? Shit- there are too many variables to this... I'm going deer hunting.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 20, 2006 10:30 AM
"Won't the coyotes (if they are there) hear that distress and possibly think "it's just another dieing critter" because in this area the coyote knows it can hunt and move around on HIS terms because of the abundance of the food are always there?
Now, if I add howls to the mix, again any time of year, although the territory issue may not be as big out here, Won't that just add some "excitement" to the scenerio that I am trying to present?"
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Browning,
You are on the right track alright. The howl tells resident coyotes that there is a coyote over there. Adding a prey distress after your howl will often cause resident coyotes to come in faster. Coyotes are ornery critters.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted December 20, 2006 11:10 AM
The howl tells resident coyotes that there is a coyote over there. Adding a prey distress after your howl will often cause resident coyotes to come in faster.
RichC, I agree with the coyote over there and the come in faster part, but I don't think it's resident specific.
Dennis
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